861: 35 and Chaste — Is It Too Late? | Feedback Friday

23:22Yeah, but is it really on these guys to force slash coach their wives and girlfriends how to be nice to somebody from another country? Would they even listen? Right. A lot of guys are oblivious to that sort of mean girl stuff, and it's a waste of time to even try to get involved some of the time. I'd like to think that if one of them had said to their partner, you know, I think Maria's feeling a little hurt, a little left out. She's Greg's wife. We love Greg. Maybe we try to include Maria a little more. maybe they'd make more of an effort, but then it just feels like middle school bullshit. Yeah.

23:52And if they're not being cool to your wife because they want to be cool to your wife, then, I mean, it sounds like she doesn't even really want to hang with these ladies. Like, that's not a good feeling either. Right. Like, all right, we'll let her come to the juice bar after we go to yoga. Like, don't do me any favors. Thanks for the pity invite. Right. Yeah. If this is me, I'm like, no, thanks. Not my people, which it sounds like that's kind of her response at this point. And I get it. These are not the only women she can be friends with in the United States. So my gut is telling me you can certainly continue to be friends with these guys if your friendships with them are still meaningful.

24:23And you can see them and their partners without your wife. If she's not feeling this group, I think that's fair. And if they're like, where's Maria? You can be like, well, she has other stuff to do. The women will get it. And they'll be like, well, we didn't like her anyway. So who cares, man? I get it. But if this whole thing has revealed new sides of these guys, for example, maybe you're realizing your friend group is not very tolerant or they're rigid or they're not empathetic to other people or they're racist or something, the guys as well as the gals, then I understand why you need to pull away because then we're not just talking about a personality fit.

24:53We're talking about values and you being married to somebody who's being treated a certain way by this social circle that might really bring into focus some of the values you might not have fully appreciated before. I think that's a really good point, Jordan. So, you know, I guess my thought there is, do you see similar behavior from them in other parts of your relationship? For example, do these guys do something similar in your circle with new people? Do you feel like they don't have your back in other ways? You know, do you feel misunderstood or unappreciated by them in general? If so, those would be reasons to reevaluate these friendships.

25:28You might not have to drop these guys entirely because of your wife, but maybe you only stay close to the one or two who are really cool, or you don't spend quite as much time with them. Look, maybe you just adjust your expectations of what this group can offer you and your wife. Either way, I would keep an eye on both sides of this equation. You know, how other people respond to your wife and also how your wife operates in these social situations, to Jordan's point. Because again, people should go out of their way to make a new person, especially a new person from another country, feel welcome.

25:58But a lot of people are not like that. And part of your wife's job, whether it's fair or unfair, is to learn how to ingratiate herself with new people in this country. Indeed, this is something, or forsooth for that matter. This is something I had to learn when I was bumming around the world in my 20s, fumbling my way through different languages and cultures. It's a skill. It takes time. And maybe as she does that, she'll find that people are more receptive to her. Give that a go. And then you guys are going to know whether these friends are the right ones. And hey, maybe you ask her to bring you to Brazilian expat events in your city.

26:30You make some new friends. I bet it'd be fascinating to be on the other side of this situation yourself and see what that's like. I love your wife's courage and tenacity in learning English. It's not an easy transition. It sounds like she's doing pretty great. I'm wishing you both the best. Gabriel, this reminds me of my time when I lived in former East Germany. It's the 90s. I was a teenager, 17 years old, whatever. My host mother and I didn't get along that well because she didn't speak English at all. She was a German teacher, like as a literature. And she just didn't really understand me. She grew up in East Germany.

27:04She understood a little bit of Russian and German, and that was pretty much it. And she was like, I just wash this punk's clothes and cook for him and he's like silent and kind of a pill and I don't need a teenager, I already have a teenager. And then one day, the volunteers who were taking care of us were like, you need to experience all of German society, go to the grocery store, don't skip out on little mundane daily activities. And I was like, that's a pretty good idea. So my host mother was like, I'm gonna go to the grocery store. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go with you. And she was like, what?

27:32Okay, great. So I go to the grocery store with her and we're having a hilarious time because she's trying to talk to me and I can't understand her, but I'm looking at things, laughing at different products that don't make any sense. We're just having kind of a funny time and bonding a little bit in a way that we can. And on the way home, we're walking out and she's trying to talk to me, but she can't. I'm trying to talk to her and she doesn't understand. And this guy comes sprinting up behind us. He looks like a thug. He clearly had stolen something and we see the manager and security chasing him out of the grocery store.

28:03and it was like a movie. Some idiot with a cart, not paying attention, shoves the cart in front of the manager and the security so the guy gets away and they're like, you moron. And we were looking at each other and laughing and talking. And when we got home, we both told the story, her in German and me in English. And after that, we were totally buddies. It was like immediate sort of funny bonding moment because we had this almost like an inside joke. And I was like, you know, she's not so bad. I should probably learn how to be more of a not a pill in her house while she takes care of me and her and I really bonded really really well right after that I just made an extra effort and she made an extra effort and that was all it took it was it she was an amazing sort of second mom for a long time you can reach us friday at jordanharbinger.com keep your emails concise try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier if you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you're dealing with the legacy of literal incest in your family, or you were blackmailed by a scammer who might make it impossible for you to travel abroad, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com.

29:09We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Oh, another reminder, we relaunched the newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from me to you delivered to your inbox once a week. If you want to stay connected to our huge library of past guests and ideas. Come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, next up. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I have a grown daughter who's seen a therapist once a week for over three years. She had a difficult childhood when I divorced her father. He used his suicidal tendencies to manipulate her into taking care of him emotionally, saying that I was going to find her a new dad and that he would just disappear if she didn't want to see him.

29:52I didn't find out about this until years later, and I support her in seeking treatment to help her sort out her emotions. Since then, she's been able to set boundaries with the people in her life, including me, which is a good sign. She's recently graduated with her third master's degree and is a very skilled and thoughtful elementary school teacher. She has many friends and has maintained relationships with our extended family. I can see that she's successfully navigating her life. Recently, though, she broke up with her boyfriend of a few months. She was able to use her support group via friends and family, but immediately set up an emergency therapy session, even though she sees her therapist every week.

30:32She has her therapist's cell phone number, and it seems that she's able to contact her therapist whenever she wants. I know you're both huge advocates of seeking therapy, and I agree with you. Therapy is useful for unwinding past trauma and learning tools to move forward in life. But is this a normal counseling relationship? Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit excessive? Is it possible to become addicted to therapy? Signed, a mom with some questions about these additional sessions. So this is a great question, and I really appreciate how respectful you're being about your daughter's journey, while also acknowledging some legitimate questions you have about her treatment.

31:14There's a lot going on in this letter, so yeah, let's dive in. Of course, we wanted to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the f***ing doctor. And Dr. Margolis confirmed immediately, yes, your daughter's relationship with her therapist sounds totally normal. In her view, it's absolutely appropriate to ask a therapist for additional support temporarily while you're dealing with an acute stressor, like, say, breaking up with a partner. She also said that it's normal to be able to reach a therapist outside of session, depending on the type of therapist and therapy, of course.

31:53When we talk about BetterHelp, you can chat with your therapist and send them notes and stuff like that, so it seems pretty normal. Now, Dr. Margolis did say that if they're having full-on therapy sessions via text or talking for an hour on the phone outside of session or whatever, that could potentially be a question mark. But again, that depends on the therapist and type of therapy. For example, in DBT, which is dialectical behavior therapy, there's often more contact between patient and therapist between sessions. It's part of the modality, NBD, no big deal. But we don't have enough information to know if that's what's happening here.

32:27It sounds like it isn't, and texting or calling a therapist for some quick support or to set up an additional session, it's just not inherently bad or inappropriate. but Dr. Margolis zeroed in on something very important here, which is your daughter has a unique history. It sounds like she had a very turbulent, confusing relationship with her father to say the least. This tragic story about her dad, look, it touches on loss, grief, confusing boundaries with a key male attachment figure. This is very intense and complicated stuff and I'm sure it had a profound influence on her. Right, this breakup, it's possible that it's not just a breakup.

33:04right? It could be activating other stuff for her that is more historical than just this one relationship. Exactly. So imagine how difficult losing a relationship would be for somebody like your daughter who had all this crap with her dad. Right. So as Dr. Margolis put it, it might be very therapeutic for her to have a therapist say, look, I'm available when you need me, that they're available to her more than 50 minutes or 45 minutes each week. I thought it was interesting when you said that therapy is useful for unwinding past trauma and learning tools to move forward in life. Look, that's absolutely true, of course, but it's also about more than that.

33:40It's about navigating the ups and downs of life. It's about exploring new questions and challenges that arise along the way, and it's about investing in the relational aspect of therapy, the relationship between client and therapist, which is incredibly valuable. There's that crucial element of attachment, again, which is part of the reason that it's not unusual for people to be in therapy long term, sometimes in and out over the course of their lives. So in Dr. Margolis's view, if your daughter's feeling comfortable enough to reach out to her therapist in a time of need, that's almost certainly a good sign.

34:14Also, let's remember that you're not in the room with your daughter in therapy. You don't know what she's talking about. You don't know what this breakup has brought up for her or what else might be going on in her life. You just don't know what she really needs therapeutically. Yeah, she's probably complaining about you because you're a mom. I'm joking, but not joking. You really can't truly know whether she needs therapy or how often. It's not really up to you. Now, that said, it's also a therapist's job to set the boundaries, to determine what's appropriate, to work with the client, to decide when they're ready to be done with therapy.

34:45But again, their job, not your job. But look, this is an interesting question. Can somebody become addicted to therapy? I wondered that myself, actually, when you brought it up. And Dr. Margolis' take there was, addicted to therapy? Eh, might not be the best phrase. Maybe a better way to put it is, hanging around in therapy when it's no longer useful. In her experience, therapy can become unhelpful when a patient has achieved all their therapy goals or doesn't have any more relevant symptoms to work on and is just kind of going to therapy to go to therapy. For example, if a patient who's severely depressed is using therapy as a reason to leave their house because they have no other activities, or if a patient has no friends and they're using therapy as their social hour, or if going to therapy becomes its own type of avoidance, like a patient is too daunted by life to deal with it on their own and a sort of codependency develops between client and therapist, those are some broad examples of when therapy probably isn't all that helpful anymore, or at least not helpful in ways that it should be helping.

35:50That's when a good, ethically appropriate, legit therapist should say to a client, hey, I'm happy to see you every week, but I'm wondering if our sessions are still helpful to you. So let's talk about that. But again, probably not the case with your daughter, and here you are still having these questions about her treatment. So Dr. Margolis felt the better question here might actually be, is there something about your daughter's therapy or her relationship with her therapist that's bringing up some interesting feelings for you? Not to be all like, it's always about you, or it's always about how messed up the question asker is, whatever.

36:25But for example, is there some fear or anxiety about what all this says about her childhood or her personality or you as her mom? Does her seeing her therapist more often make you think that she struggles to cope with things on her own or that a person shouldn't rely on someone else this much? Or Gabriel, I'm also like, if my kids are in therapy, I'm like, God, was I really that bad of a parent? I mean, do you need to go all the time? Is this my fault? Maybe there's something there too. I mean, I think that's very normal. I think that's very common. But, you know, another interesting question is, is there possibly an element of envy and or jealousy here?

37:00You know, maybe about no longer being her primary source of support and knowing that her daughter now turns to her therapist first instead of her. Yeah, I could see that. We'll let you decide if any of this fits. And look, I'm asking this just zero judgment. All these feelings, again, are completely normal. I'm just appreciating what might be happening on your side. of the equation. I also thought it was interesting that one of the things your daughter has learned in therapy is how to draw boundaries, you said, including with you, which you said is a good sign. That implies that there was probably a time when those boundaries were not as well defined, which alongside the dad stuff also paints a picture of maybe some messy lines in this family.

37:39And look, I love that you're supportive of her separating more. I think that's great. But I also wonder if that's been a little distressing to you in some other ways and worrying about whether your daughter is doing too much therapy. I know it comes from a good place, but that might also be a way to cross one of those boundaries, again, under the guise of care and concern. Right, as opposed to letting her adult daughter determine what's best for herself and support her in that without weighing in too much about whether it's excessive or legit. I mean, if it's true that she feels it's good that she's setting boundaries with her, then it would be a little oversteppy to weigh in on her relationship with her therapist.

38:19But again, it sounds like you're not doing any of this with her. You're privately asking us, privately asking us on a podcast that a lot of people listen to, but which I appreciate. I'm not dragging you for like having these questions, just noticing that having these questions in the first place might be an early stage in intervening in your daughter's life, if only in your head. So our take here, this is a really great opportunity to reflect a little bit more about what's so concerning to you about your daughter's therapy. What her needs bring up for you. Dr. Margolis' general insight here was, yeah, trust your daughter.

38:55Unless you're seeing something really egregious and worrisome, like, I don't know, she's coming home after every session crying about how mean her therapist is, or she's turning against you in a way that doesn't feel like healthy separation. maybe something that feels more like manipulation or control, or she's developing other problematic behavior. She's getting worse overall. Short of you making observations like that, I would pull back and allow her to be in therapy as much as she feels she needs right now. She's going through something unusually intense, especially for her, and in all likelihood, she just needs some additional connection and some additional support to do her work.

39:31Your questions are not bad ones, and I'm very confident that they come from a place of genuine caring, and there might be some other meaningful stuff of your own in the mix, which is your work. Yeah, I agree with that. So go do that and trust that looking after yourselves individually right now is probably the best way to maintain this much healthier relationship you guys have developed over the years. And hey, might not be the worst idea to consider going to therapy yourself if you're open to it. I have a feeling that bringing questions like this into your own session would be very fruitful. But hey, maybe I'm the one overstepping now.

40:04Speaking of overstepping, go support the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And you can always search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. That's been super useful and super cool. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday.

40:38Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, for the last five years of my marriage, I was unemployed, weighed almost 500 pounds, was depressed, and had to move back in with my parents. As you can imagine, this caused extreme stress on my relationship, and I ended up asking for the divorce after one of our big fights. I had gotten it into my head that ending the relationship was going to fix my life. That, of course, was not the case, and it took me a long time after the relationship ended to get myself back together. In the three years since, I have had intensive and very fruitful therapy. I got diagnosed as both autistic and ADHD, and I got put on testosterone replacement therapy because, as my physician put it, I had the lowest level I have ever seen in a man your age.

41:26I've lost close to 280 pounds without surgery, and I am preparing to go through skin removal surgery soon. I got my work life back on track, even moving up from where I was, and I've helped start two businesses, which so far are looking to be successful. One of the major things my therapist and I have focused on is feeling my feelings. My default when faced with uncomfortable feelings has always been to dissociate or compartmentalize them. I had a real issue with going cold. I have worked very hard to force myself to face situations in a more compassionate manner and to really take the time to feel my way through things.

42:03Wow. Okay. I just need to stop here and say, this is amazing. You are killing the self-improvement game right now. Yes. What a journey you've been on. I know how hard it is to lose even like 30 pounds, 40 pounds. Losing 280 pounds without surgery is just, your mindset is just pure steel. throwing yourself into therapy, seeking medical help, losing a massive amount of weight, reinvigorating your career, starting two successful companies. And on top of all that, learning how to probably do the hardest thing for most of us, certainly for you, which is feeling the feels and not turning away from your life.

42:36So my goodness, man, you are an inspiration and I'm very proud of you. Gabe, carry on. Let's get to the disastrous part that I assume is coming. Yeah, let's see where this goes. So everyone's waiting. They're like, okay, when does his life fall apart and get worse? Okay, enough with the hugs, exactly. Yeah. All right, he goes on. Looking back on these last five years, I now feel a profound sense of guilt. I don't blame myself for being depressed, but I do blame myself for not getting the help I needed sooner. My ex-wife encouraged me to get help, but I was just comfortable enough living off of my parents' and wife's income to do anything about it.

43:12Also, I ended up abandoning a woman who stuck with me when I was at my worst, and I feel like I stole five years from her. I now have more money than I've ever had, and the thought keeps coming up that I should give some of it to my ex. We've had no relationship this whole time, but she's working hard and putting herself through grad school, and I know a large injection of funds would help her out. Is that crazy? Would trying to give her money look weird? Am I trying to put myself back into to her life where it's abundantly clear and understandable that I'm no longer wanted? Is there a way to give somebody$50 ,000 to$100 ,000 anonymously?

43:51Signed, making things right with my hard-done ex-wife by keeping my pockets light. Wow. Okay. So basically, do I pay reparations to my ex-wife for being a total mess and relying on her and wasting her time for five years and then bailing? Such an interesting question. and again, I have to say your self-awareness and your humility here are kind of off the charts and they're making it very easy to help you because you've done so much work already and I feel comfortable being very direct with you because of that, so here it goes. Is it crazy to wanna give your ex-wife this money especially at a time when she could really use it?

44:29No, I don't think it's inherently crazy. You're certainly allowed to. It's your money and you might be right. It might make a huge difference in her life. what you need to do and take a moment and really think about is, what are your reasons for doing this? What are your motivations? It's obvious that your primary motivation here is alleviating your guilt. I think that's normal. It's somewhat appropriate. It probably speaks to your empathy and how much bigger your heart has become over the last few years. Also, there's a practical element to this. You partially lived off your wife's income when you weren't healthy, and now you're in a very different place.

45:05And on some level, giving her this money might feel like the ethically right thing to do. And again, through a certain lens, it might be. But through another lens, I'm not totally sure. This impulse to make things right with your wife through the money, I think it glosses over some important nuances to your marriage. Because I think what's getting lost here a little bit is your wife's role in all of this. And yes, based on what you've shared, you were not an easy husband. You sat back. You maybe took advantage of these comforts. You didn't seek treatment sooner, even though she wanted you to. You left her when she stuck with you through the worst.

45:40You feel like you stole five years from her. I'm not going to argue that. And again, I really appreciate how much accountability you're taking for your life and your actions. It's also true that your wife chose to stay with you and to help support you and tolerate your unhealthy choices and to engage in these big blowout fights that you guys would have. We don't know how she was behaving in your marriage, how she was showing up. Maybe she was a total angel, but it's also possible that she brought her own dysfunction or challenges to the marriage, that she had her own issues to work through. You might have been the hot mess, but at a minimum, she put up with that hot mess, maybe for noble reasons or maybe for more complicated ones, and that was her choice.

46:27What I'm getting at here is there were two people in this marriage And when you describe this guilt, I hear a guy who's very in touch with his role in all this, but who might be overlooking or discounting his wife's willingness and responsibility in sticking around. Gabe, I don't know about you, but for me, that complicates the picture here a little bit in terms of the guilt. Does this make sense? Do you see what I mean? Yes, yes, yes. So you're saying that his guilt is a little simplistic, maybe a little monolithic, like he's not accounting for some other stuff. Yeah, monolithic is not a word I would ever use in my daily life, but it's not wrong or inappropriate.

47:00it just might have some more contours than he appreciates. Yeah, yeah, contours that might, by making room for his wife's responsibility and all this, soften the guilt a little bit on its own. Yeah, you know how sometimes you idealize your ex-girlfriend and they're like, they were so great, and then you realize you're just doing that because you feel alone in the moment? I feel like almost this is sort of the same thing, like, oh, she was so great and I was so bad, and it's like, well, wait a minute, if you really examine everything, I was the most bad, but she also did these other things that didn't really help either and enabled everything.

47:30Yeah, soften the guilt, maybe lessens the pressure he feels to pay her this money. Yeah, if he really sort of had it all laid out, all the cards were actually on the table. He's going, this is all on me. I'm the a-hole. I'm the messed up one. I did all these terrible things. And the only way to make things right is to zell her a hundred grand. Yeah. But it might be more accurate to say, I did a lot of damage. I was unhealthy. I was avoiding a lot of stuff. And my wife chose to be married to me. And she had her stuff too. Maybe me more than her, but yes, there were two of us there. And is it really up to me to fix this whole story with this money?

48:06Exactly. And so, yeah, maybe it's 50 grand, not 100 grand. I don't know. I'm willing to pay for half your tuition because you were at least 50 % of the problem. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We could just calculate the damage like a class action lawsuit. Just what is the price for five years of arguing and terrible sex in your mom's basement? I don't know. 35, 40 grand tops. I don't know. Yeah. I see your point. He has some work to do in exploring this guilt some more because I think right now he's in touch with the surface of that guilt and he's being, like you said, very evolved and taking responsibility, but he might also be over-correcting here a little bit.

48:40He's grown so much by confronting himself directly, but maybe in the process of doing that, he's lost sight of how other people play a role in his life. And also, maybe there's a self-esteem component that says, I am not worthy of other people's commitment or love or help, and I messed it up, so it must be on me to make up for it and even the scales. I also think we need to acknowledge another big piece here, which is what are his expectations for this money? He's hoping that cutting her a check will help reduce the guilt. To your point, Jordan, he might not need to give her the money to ease that burden.

49:13But my question is, does he know for sure that giving her this money will ease the guilt? Yeah, that's a fair question. Is he placing all his hopes on this money solving the problem for him? And I understand the impulse to just sort of be like, I'm rich now. Let me solve this with money. I get it. He's made this mistake before, right? When he was married, he had gotten it into his head that ending the relationship was going to fix his life. And then he found out, oh, wow, that didn't work. And I have to go off and do all this work to get better. So part of me wonders, is something similar happening with the money?

49:44Is he hoping that the second the transfer goes through, a weight will magically be lifted from his shoulders? Or is it possible that the guilt is going to remain to some degree? The money doesn't change the facts of their marriage and might even make them worse because then he'll have given her this money and he'll still feel guilty and he'll feel like this one big strategy failed and he parted ways with his money and he's still trying to make things right with his wife. I think that's a crucial question for him to ask himself right now, absolutely. because we also don't know how she'll respond to this.

50:17Yeah, that's kind of what I was about to say, because he could offer her the money and she might go, wow, thank you. This is huge for me. Or she might go, no, screw you. I don't want your dirty money after what you did. Or she might go, that's really sweet and I want to accept it, but it makes me completely uncomfortable. And it's not going to change the fact that you're a total a-hole that ruined my life for a really long time. And like he said, is he trying to wiggle his way back into her life when it's abundantly clear that he's not wanted. Right. I think that's another possible motivation he needs to really sit with.

50:46Because if I was really making amends, I would say, I want to give her this money and then I can move on. But he's like, am I secretly trying to worm my way? It's like, well, interesting that you came up with that because are you trying to do that? Because if you're not, that probably wouldn't have even occurred to you. The fact that he's asking it makes me think that there's at least some part of him that wants back in. Right. This is like the grand gesture where she's like, oh, thank you. This makes up for it. And also I've missed you so much and look at how different you are. All right. My take on that is whether you guys should get back together or not, whether your ex ultimately wants that or not, I would just put that aside for now and make sure that this offer is not tainted by some other agenda to worm your way back into her life, which I secretly suspect that it is.

51:31And that means being very clear about what strings you might be attaching to this money, invisible ones that you might not even see, including the string of, I need you to be nice to me and put up with me now that I'm funding your master's degree or you have to answer my text messages because it makes me feel less guilty because that's where this offer could become manipulative. Yeah. Agreed. I also think that if he goes through with this, he should make it a true offer, meaning he should write her a letter or give her a call and say, listen, I've given this a lot of thought. I know you're working hard to put yourself through school.

52:02I'm in a much better place now. I would love to help you out because I support you and I appreciate you. And yes, I also would love to make things right. How would you feel about that? Would that be helpful to you? Would that be welcome? And let her decide, because if he goes ahead and makes a wire transfer without telling her, that could send a certain signal or violate an important boundary between them post divorce, especially since she's made it clear that she really doesn't want to have any contact with him. Yeah, I could not agree more, Gabe. So the bottom line, there's more for you to know about your feelings about this offer, about what you're hoping to achieve here.

52:34And I really encourage you to dig into that. There's no rush here. Take a few months, bring this into therapy, figure out the nuances of the guilt, the sense of responsibility, why money seems to be the answer. We can't tell you what to do, of course. There's a world where this money is a beautiful gift and a way to close the circle with your ex-wife in a really touching way, or who knows, maybe to create a friendship with her now that you're in such a different place. But there's also a world where this money would not be welcome. It won't solve your problems or where it's tainted with other interests that only create new problems.

53:03And that's what you have to figure out. But again, super proud how far you've come. You are so well equipped to think through this and make the right call. And I know that you will. So good luck. And once again, congratulations, man. You lost more than 50 % of your weight. Isn't that freaking crazy to even think about? Wild. Wild. Yeah. All right. What's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been a registered nurse for 25 years in a variety of areas, and when the pandemic started, my staff was responsible for managing our employees with COVID or suspected COVID. I was working 10-12 hour days, 7 days a week.

53:40It was our job to educate and help the frontline staff conserve their masks and keep themselves safe when resources were very scarce. Now that the pandemic has been declared over, I'm finding myself unsure how to navigate the world again. For example, before the pandemic, I volunteered for an equine therapy organization as an equine specialist. But since I became unavailable, I was replaced, and now they don't have a place for me. It feels as though I've had my head down plowing through the last three years, and I'm just now picking it up again. It feels like everyone around me moved on, and I was left behind to try and figure out my place in the world.

54:19I spoke to a therapist. It helped some, but I still feel like an outsider. How would you deal with this feeling? Or is everything fine and I just need to move on? Signed, an unmoored nurse looking for her place in the universe. Yeah, I think what you're describing here is something so many people feel, myself included sometimes, this feeling that the pandemic distorted time and space, it removed a lot of the familiar structures and markers that made our lives make sense. but that's especially true of frontline workers, doctors, nurses in particular. I can't tell you how many emails we get from nurses, even still saying they are totally tapped out.

55:02They're still low-key traumatized by the panity. The system is broken. They're quitting. You guys got hit exceptionally hard, which really sucks. This chapter was incredibly intense. And so all the feelings you're describing make perfect sense, especially this feeling of, hey, I had my head down trying to get through the last three years. Now I look up, the world has changed. I feel like I don't have a place. So yeah, there's no simple answer to your question. And actually, I think you might still be feeling it, even if the pandemic had not been so hard, because that's kind of how life works for everyone.

55:34It ebbs, it flows, it gets hard, it gets easier. Opportunities pop up, they go away, situations evolve. This change, it's not a part of life, it is life. But I think this is especially heightened for you because your job forced you to go into survival mode, have tunnel vision, and now you're looking up and around again for the first time in a while. And that's going to be disorienting. Disorienting and also a little sad. Like I sense that she's quite sad from this letter. I sense that too. She's still kind of mourning this old life that she had. And it's appropriate to do that. Maybe that's another thing she lost in the pandemic, the time to sit with everything that was changing as it was happening.

56:10And so now she's kind of catching up to how much she's lost, which would be really hard. Really hard. And yeah, totally normal. And necessary and healthy. And in that grief is sadness and probably some anger at the pandemic, at the system that she works in, which was totally messed up by all accounts and some fear because everything feels unfamiliar now. So my main thought for you is, first of all, let yourself go through this period that you're going through. Don't fight the feelings too much. They're doing their thing. And while you do that, I would start seeking out some of these experiences that you know, give you meaning.

56:43Treat it like a little game. Somewhere out there is a volunteer position or a class or a hobby or a new friendship, and you just haven't found it yet. They haven't found you yet. You clearly have a lot to offer. And I know for a fact that tons of organizations would love to have a nurse with 25 years of experience on their staff, or that there are other worlds for you to explore outside of these fields. I also wonder, frankly, when's the last time you had a vacation or even a sabbatical to go work somewhere else like a hospital ship or overseas doing something. And yes, this is partly escapism, but maybe a good change of pace is just what you need.

57:18Maybe you do need to work in a little village that treats kids and just slow down for a few months. I don't know. My larger idea here is, I think you're clinging to what life looked like before and you're disappointed and a little unmoored that it doesn't look like that anymore. And again, totally normal. But I also imagine that mindset is making it hard for you to imagine new possibilities or to create new opportunities for yourself or reach out to new people or to just be open to what, I don't know, magically comes along and treat your life as a process and an adventure, which is what it is, rather than as a fixed picture that you need to recreate and rebuild.

57:57Otherwise, you'll feel lost. This is all reminding me of separating from my previous show and business. I was like, I need to run events like we did and I need to sell products like we did and I need to do this. And it was like, imagine a world in which you don't have to do all the crap you didn't like doing before. And it was scary to do that. It almost felt impossible. It did feel impossible. It's scary to reinvent yourself and step into a whole new version of your life when what you really want is to go back to what it was before. Yeah. I agree. I'm also very interested in this feeling of being lost because I think that's a universally terrifying feeling for most people, to your point, Jordan.

58:30but it's extra hard because everybody else in her life seems to have moved on, which, by the way, I would be very curious to know if that's actually true. I think everybody feels pretty shaken up by the last three years, even if they're not really talking about it that much anymore. But here she is, and she's trying to figure this out, and she feels like an outsider. That outsider thing is also very meaningful. And I'm sure that speaks to this singular experience she's had as a nurse in the pandemic. But I'd also venture to guess that other thoughts are creating that sense of being an outsider, including maybe that her needs are different from other people's or that she's facing challenges that they are not facing or that she really is alone in navigating this new chapter, which she definitely isn't.

59:12Right, all of which I understand, but I think those feelings get more intense the more you cling to the past and less intense the more you engage with life and seek out new experiences. I agree with that. And so no, our answer is not everything's fine, you just need to move on. Everything isn't fine. You're a nurse, you know that, and just moving on is not going to make the feelings go away. But working with the feelings, letting them work themselves out while also putting them to good use by seeking out people and experiences that give you meaning and joy and connection, I think that's going to be the name of the game.

59:44And some days that might just mean talking about how you feel with somebody you trust, like a friend, your therapist, a colleague, whatever. On other days, it might mean sending emails to two or three animal therapy organizations saying, hey, I've done this work before. I love your organization. I'd be thrilled to volunteer. Could you use somebody like me? And just see what the world sends back your way. That's all you gotta do. That's all any of us have to do. Accept and then act in that order. Sending you a big hug and all of our confidence that a new chapter is gonna open up for you slash already is, even if you can't see it quite yet.

1:00:19And just so you know, everyone listening right now is nodding along and thinking, crap, I'm glad that's not just me. We're all weirded out and confused. This is a weird time coming out of a pandemic. Pandemic over or not is just a bizarre time warp. For me, I had kids during that, so that's been double weird. But you know, bizarre doesn't have to be bad. Hope you all enjoyed the show. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out the episodes with Bradley Sherman on population and demographic decline and Mitchell Prothero on the rising tide of cocaine and violent organized crime in Europe.

1:00:52We also had our Skeptical Sunday on fast fashion. Again, just all sunshine and rainbows this week. The best things that have happened in my life and business have always come through my network and the circle of people that I know and trust. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need them in ways that don't make you look like an a-hole.

1:01:25You can find it all at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals, or ask our AI chatbot at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:02:02Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at DrAaronMargolis.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

1:02:34Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show. What I tried to do was thank a thousand people who had even the smallest role in making my cup of coffee possible. A thousand years ago, oh, that's not a lot. That's a lot. Oh, my God, it was a lot. A hundred people would be a tedious process. No, it was way more than I anticipated.

1:03:10Ten times that many. Everything we do requires hundreds, thousands of interconnected people and that we take for granted. And just making this mental switch, just from a selfish point of view, is very good because it really does help you appreciate the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of focusing on the three or four that go wrong. There's a great quote. I wish I'd come up with it myself. But it says, it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. So I had to fake it for a long time. You know, I would wake up in a grumpy mood, but I'd be like, I have to spend an hour calling or visiting people and thanking them.

1:03:53And I'm not in the mood to do that right now. So it was like acting. It was like method acting. And I would force myself to do it. But I'll tell you, by the end of that hour, your mind, you know, the cognitive dissonance is too much. Your mind will switch over to gratefulness. There's a great quote that happiness does not lead to gratitude. Gratitude leads to happiness. having that mindset really will make you happier. For more with AJ Jacobs and his fascinating journey to thank everyone involved in his cup of morning coffee and an inside look at just how complex the supply chain of our lives really is, check out episode 174 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.