870: Personality Tests | Skeptical Sunday

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1:06Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host Michael Regilio. Normally on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, we do Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic, such as why the Olympics are kind of a sham, acupuncture, astrology, funerals, and weddings.

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2:19There is a donor that's going to double our donations. So we're trying to raise 20 grand. It'll become 40 grand, bringing hope to families that struggle to afford really even the most basic necessities of life for themselves and their kids. This is the village of Nomani in rural Kenya. We want to give$1 ,000 to each of the 36 families. It's about 200 people in total. In this village, only seven families have a permanent shelter. Education,$3 a semester, but over half the residents have no formal education because they can't afford$3 per semester to send their kids to school. No medical care because they have no way to get there.

2:54Access to water is erratic at best. The pipes run dry for up to a week at a time. People can't afford to buy water. So what they're gonna do with the money is buy land for farming, cover school fees for their kids, buy things like goats that can endure harsh droughts, improve their homes with sturdy construction slash build homes for them to sleep in, metal roofs, concrete floors so they're not in the dirt, and most importantly, in my opinion, they are going to start small businesses like community taxi services. They gotta get motorcycles and stuff like that. There's other ideas here. They're going to be self-sustaining.

3:25They're not just gonna blow through this money. They're gonna use it to lift the village out of poverty and they're going to chronicle this for us, which is going to be really interesting for us to watch. Go to givedirectly.com slash Jordan to donate. I, of course, am donating. Donations are 100 % tax deductible in the US. If you're not in the US, here's your chance to support the show, givedirectly.com slash Jordan. And if you email me a screenshot of your donation, I would love to send you a personalized video thanking you for it. GiveDirectly.com slash Jordan. By the way, if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this show, they are getting rid of that app.

3:57August 29th, it will no longer be useful. So switch to a different app if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this podcast. If you're on Android, I suggest Podcast Addict. It might not be as pretty, but it works really well. If you're on iOS, Apple, you should use Overcast, in my humble opinion, or Apple Podcasts, but definitely no longer Stitcher. It will not update anymore in the next couple of months. So if you're using the Stitcher app, now's a good time to switch to a new podcast app. And if you have any problems with this, you're kind of boomer in terms of your tech, you don't know what to do, you can always email me, Jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

4:31I will try to point you in the right direction, but the Stitcher app will no longer work for this show. All right, today, personality tests. Now, these things are everywhere. Some of them are completely innocuous, like those Cosmo tests from back in the day. Are you a Samantha or are you a Miranda? Are you a Kramer? Are you a George? People post their results on social media for fun, for laughs, for likes, but there are other personality tests with real life consequences, unfortunately. Dating sites use them to help you determine which way to swipe. Employers employ personality tests to find out who gets the job and who is just out of luck.

5:06So is it a resume keeping people from a paycheck or is it a weird, not very accurate algorithm that assigns an unemployable personality type, whatever that means. With literal lives and livelihoods on the line, it's worth asking, what are personality tests? Who came up with them? Are they really a valuable tool? Or are they basically just horoscopes in a frickin' lab coat? This week, comedian Michael Regilio is going to be a real Jerry, I guess, and answer the burning question, what's the deal with personality tests? Thanks, Jordan. Despite your intro, I'm just myself, Danae. Do you know who you are?

5:45I'm not sure. I'm a terrible Jerry Seinfeld impersonator. That was not something I'm ever going to do again. Should I take maybe a test to find out who I really am? Oh, that depends on how much you value your time. Personality tests are fun when there's absolutely nothing riding on the results. Plus, we like to talk and think about ourselves, which is the whole point of the results. But as complex beings, I don't know if a few questions will exactly define Jordan Harbinger. I tend to agree. Can we learn something about ourselves based on the results, though? Not really. They put individuals into a box and say, if you fall into this box, you're good at this and bad at that.

6:22When dating apps use them, they're saying, hey, look at all the people in your box. You should make out with them. Yeah, the teenage me would have absolutely loved that advice and would have also been woefully unsuccessful at taking it. Thousands of personality type based groups exist on websites like meetup.com, Tinder, and SoSync. They match people based on personality test results. People are using their personality test results to define themselves and who they are compatible with, similar to how some people use zodiac signs. Ah, yes. And China, I think it's blood type as well. And I think it's both a diet and a horoscope.

6:58It's very scientific, as you might guess. How long have we been using personality tests? They recent, where do they come from? Personality testing boomed during World War I. Both the U.S. and British militaries were looking for ways to screen for soldiers who had, quote, weak constitutions. That sounds very technical. Yeah, I know. And might be more susceptible to what they then called shell shock. Nowadays we call PTSD. So an American psychologist, Robert Woodworth, created a test called the Woodworth Personal Data Sheet. This early personality test had interesting questions like, can you sit still without fidgeting?

7:33And did you ever think you had lost your manhood? I definitely can't sit still without fidgeting. And I always check for the manhood thing in the shower every morning. Won't ask questions. Okay, just in the morning, lucky you. By the time they published the Woodworth test in 1919, the war was over. But academia embraced the test and psychologists used it for all kinds of research. It became the roadmap for all subsequent personality testing. And this ultimately led to the big dog on the personality test block, the Myers-Briggs type indicator. Oh, yeah. I'm sure most people are generally familiar with the Myers-Briggs test.

8:12I remember taking it as a kid and as an adult and seeing you still hear about it everywhere. That's the one where you end up saying things like, OMG, she's such an INTJ for like the next 18 months of your life and annoying the crap out of all your friends and colleagues. I'm guessing two people named Myers and Briggs came up with this? Sort of. The Myers-Briggs type indicator, or the MBTI, is based on the ideas of personality types developed in 1921 by famed psychologist Carl Jung. Ooh, Carl Jung. A few of his devotees have cornered me at parties back in college. Not a whole lot of fun. in that case.

8:51What was Carl Jung all about? Well, by the way, just for the record, Fun Young's might be a brilliant idea for snack food for grad students. Yeah, we'll talk about licensing that. Listening to someone wax on about Carl Jung is like Audible NyQuil, but we have to mention him. Yes, Audible NyQuil probably better than Audible Ambien. Roseanne Barr told me that Ambien makes you racist. So at least it's merely boredom that results from this one. Wow, indeed. Well, he did ask interesting questions about the human unconscious, and it's effects on behavior. And in a small offshoot of his thinking, Carl Jung hypothesized that there were eight identifiable personality types.

9:27The thing is, back in 1921, Jung did not consider the scientific method. So this was just like his opinion, man. His writings are... I was hoping there would be a Lebowski reference in there at some point. And you got it, dude. His writings are honest and admit some of the personality types were just based on his observations of his wife. Carl Jung complained his wife feels emotions all the time, so her type is a feeler. Oh, man. And that was good enough for science in 1921. Most notable, though, Carl Jung was the first to articulate the notions of introverted and extroverted. That's really funny.

10:05He's like, my wife and her pesky emotions. She's a feeler. She's one of those people that feels things. That is interesting, though. These are personality traits we still identify with today. Maybe not feeler, but introverted and extroverted, at least. I mean, I feel like I use that word every day. But right off the bat, there's a problem. Introverted and extroverted are not hard and fast traits that define a person for life. Who didn't watch a friend or even themselves come out of their shell after high school or when they met the right significant other? Personality is not static. And my unscientific observation of myself is that, depending on the situation, I can be one or the other.

10:40That's a good point. I'm definitely the same way. I certainly came out of my shell. People are actually shocked when they hear that I said probably three words per week at school and only when called on throughout all of middle school and a lot of high school. It just, especially given my job now, it's not a static trait. I'll give you that. Yeah. Young, however, did not create a test for these personality types. That came later with Myers and Briggs, who used Young's writings and bought into the notion that personality traits are mostly static. So, from the get-go, the Myers-Briggs test might as well be built on a foundation of sand, which gets us to the test's creators, Myers and Briggs.

11:18So who are these guys? Gals, Jordan. Gals. Unfortunately, this test isn't a significant scientific accomplishment some believe it to be. Okay, so who were these women? Catherine Cook Briggs was born in 1875. She was a teacher and a writer of both fiction and essays. In writing fiction, she was interested in understanding the personality of distinct characters. Her daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers, was pretty much treated like Catherine's subject in an experiment in human behavior since birth. Her mother was obsessed with obedience and developed some questionable theories on the subject, like, never warn a child a punishment is coming.

11:58Okay, I'm not a parenting expert, but that's objectively terrible and not a very impressive edict. Right. Isabel grew up to be a writer like her mother. She wrote mystery novels in the early 1920s. Mom Briggs read some Carl Jung and was really into his concept of eight personality traits, and she shared it with her daughter. So I just want to be clear here. Neither of these women were scientists or psychologists. Is that correct? No. Between the two of them, they had zero. No, yes, it's correct. No. Between the two of them, they had zero formal scientific experience. They just liked Young's writings.

12:34In their defense, psychology was a boys' club at that time, and it would have been next to impossible for women to take that career path. But it didn't stop Isabelle and Catherine from revamping and expanding Young's ideas. Literally, they took Young's eight personality traits and stretched them out to the much more scientifically sound 16 personality traits. Oh, okay. So I guess they believed bigger numbers are more science-y? And aren't they? Indeed. Indeed. They developed what they called a type indicator. They categorized people using questions based on Jung's interpretation of the four core psychological functions.

13:11After answering a few questions, they assigned a four-digit barcode with each letter corresponding to your type. This led to their theory of 16 distinct personality types. So the MBTI, which is used by employers and And I believe federal agencies and stuff like that is based on the opinion and bias of this mother-daughter, not scientific at all, sort of unqualified duo. And that's shocking, actually. Yeah. And Carl Jung would agree with you. Jung himself said every individual is an exception to the rule. This kind of classification is nothing but a childish parlor game. So if the guy who came up with the theory and mostly was not scientific about it disagrees you about your theory of his theory, I feel like you might be barking up the wrong tree.

13:59Or you're just, you know, taking things to the next level, but possibly also just part of the bullshit industrial complex that his personality tests. That's right. The Myers-Briggs type indicator is a weird piece of pop psychology. And you are onto something when you say it's based on their biases. Isabel, the daughter, wrote mystery novels that are riddled with racism. sexism, all the isms. Okay, so whenever somebody's like a century ago and it's like, this is racist, is it a sign of the times back then? I never really know what to think. Nor do I, but look, I haven't read it and apparently it's difficult to come by, but her second novel seems to be what we would call today a racist piece of trash.

14:38The story follows an affluent white family who all start committing suicide when they learn that one of their ancestors was black. Wow, okay, right. So it's not just casually racist because of little things in the context. It's like the whole plot itself is racist and is about racist people being racist. They're so racist, they basically die because of it. All right. I think I get it. Yeah. A certain coincidence strikes me. Isabel Briggs Myers was a mystery novelist who developed a theory of psychology and indeed a personality test based on little more than what she pulled out of her ass. a theory that has gone on to become a multi-billion dollar industry and has millions of devotees.

15:19So I have to ask, does this ring any pseudoscientific bells? Does it remind you of anything or anyone? Yeah, it does. It reminds me, especially the novelist part, of L. Ron Hubbard being a sci-fi writer and then being like, I should invent a religion and then inventing Scientology. Okay, so I'm not crazy. Not in this particular instance anyway. In fact, I guess you could say that Old Mother Briggs was actually Old Mother Hubbard, you know, because she was like L. Ron Hubbard. We get it. Yeah, we get it. All right. Coincidence aside, as we'll see, there's actually a fair comparison here. In 1944, Myers and Briggs published the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Handbook, and the seeds of a movement were born.

16:08Just by listening to this show, I can tell a lot about somebody's personality. For example, I know that you would enjoy the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell. Introducing your new Dell PC with the Intel Core Ultra Processor. It helps you handle a lot, even when your holiday to-do list gets to be a lot. Like organizing your holiday shopping, searching for great holiday deals, customer questions, customers requesting custom things. Luckily, you can get a PC with all-day battery life to help you get it all done. That's the power of a Dell PC with Intel inside, backed by Dell's price match guarantee.

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17:40Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash harbinger. Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support us are over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. So please consider supporting those who support us. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. Okay, it's quite baffling, especially when one takes into account just how big the Myers-Briggs test has become.

18:22If this was niche little stuff that people were bringing back that hadn't been seen for 50 years, I'd be like, okay, internet. But this is an institution. So let's talk about what this test is and how it manages to classify people or pretends to classify people. Okay, the Myers-Briggs type indicator assigns you a four-letter label. Each letter represents how you scored in different categories. The categories are as follows. E for extroversion, I for introversion, S for sensing, and N for intuition. N for intuition is not very intuitive. You are catching on, my friend. So, all right, I know what extroversion and introversion are kind of, I mean, we all kind of do, right?

19:04Not in the scientific sense, but in the sense where when someone says it, I know what it means. What the hell is sensing and intuition? That sounds almost the same. Right. They are made up categories by people without the credentials to be creating scientific categories. So the skeptic in me is tempted to say, who cares? But since a giant chunk of the population uses these letters to describe themselves, there is some merit in taking a moment to explain. So sensing means you focus on reality, how things really are. Intuition means you see the possibilities, how things could be. Okay, that's not so crazy.

19:37Right, of course. No, but again, all of us are all of these things to one degree or another, and more importantly, we're different combinations of these things in different circumstances and in different times in our lives. Ah, okay. Well, you're very rigid in these criticisms, Regilio. You're such a Charlotte. Look, I never watched Sex and the City, but I'm assuming Charlotte was not a one - or even two-dimensional character, which is what the Myers-Briggs test tries to break us down into. They describe each letter, so T is thinking, which means the person is reasonable and level-headed. F is feeling, so they are warm and empathetic.

20:13J is judging, which means you thrive with detailed instructions and like things solved definitively. P is perceiving, meaning a person is flexible and likes options. On the surface, it sounds a little bit like a lot of B with a dash of S. You're such a Samantha. I get that all the time. I bet you do, Jordan. So after you take the 93 question test and you or your employer pays the$49.95, they assign you your MBTI score. You can either be an ISTJ, an ISFJ, an INFJ, an INTJ, an ISTP, an ISFB. Yeah, so you're just going to go over every possible four-letter combination. An INTP, EST. Right, no, we get it.

20:59It's going to be a B-O-R-E if you keep going. So tell me you took this test and you know what you are. No, I didn't take it. And not just because I don't like wasting my time and money, but because 50 % of people who take the test a second time come up with a totally different score or letters or word or whatever the hell it is. The test literally disproves itself. Yet about 2 million people take it every year. And not just on their own. People are instructed to take it by corporate HR departments, colleges, and even government agencies. CPP, the company that produces and analyzes the tests, makes around$20 million a year off of it.

21:38Wow. Well, that's 20 million reasons that they continue to push this pseudoscientific test, right? I didn't realize that people get different results when they take it at different times or whatever, but that completely makes sense. This is why when I get ENTJ, I'm like, yeah, but sometimes I da-da-da-da, and it seems like it fits me, but then it's also so vague that any of those labels probably could fit me in some way. Right. And it's not just my skeptical and admittably unqualified opinion that the test is worthless. Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania, says, quote, there is just no evidence behind it.

22:13The characteristics measured by the test have almost no predictive power on how happy you'll be in a situation, how you'll perform at your job, or how happy you'll be in your marriage. Ah, okay. I think I've heard that about personality tests on the podcast before, but it probably was Adam Grant who said this on the show. He's been on several times, or even Benjamin Hardy, who's an organizational scientist as well, and kind of in that same realm. All right, why do people flock to this test then? We made a little joke earlier about$20 million, but that's the company pushing it. Why does anybody else care?

22:45Is it just a palatable slash convenient way to put people into a box and ditch nuance in favor of simplicity? What's the real appeal here? Well, you'll notice that none of the personality descriptions were negative. But we all have negative aspects to our personality. There's no L for lazy or C for conceited. The results of the test are flattering and vague. So anybody who gets the results, no matter what their personality, is like, Wow, you nailed it. I am empathetic thinking and feeling. This is called the Forer or the Barnum effect, a technique used by grifters for stuff like astrology and fortune telling.

23:24Right, okay, that's funny. The Barnum effect just showed up on one of my logical fallacy flashcards, which I do a few times a week because I'm a giant nerd. This is where people see concrete personal examples and fill in the blanks of something that's vague when they're given those vague generalities. So they'll fill in specific examples in their mind when somebody gives them something vague. So if I get ENTJ, I might say, oh yeah, I'm a talk show, so I am extroverted. And I am intuitive, I guess, because sometimes I use my intuition or whatever. And then I just sort of drag evidence kicking and screaming from my life experience to fit the label.

24:01And this kind of effect, it makes us think somebody made a great prediction about us or read our future on the crystal ball or tea leaves or whatever when they really just spouted off something fairly general, like a horoscope. And then we latch onto it because we want to believe it and we flesh it out in our heads. It's basically self-deception at its finest. Again, cold readers, mentalists, fake psychic grifters. There's no such thing as real psychic, but psychic grifters take advantage of this all the time. So basically, personality tests sound like, like we said before, horoscope charts dressed all up in a lab coat.