881: Finding Your Angle in Covert Love Triangle | Feedback Friday

23:27It's an interesting question whether he can separate the desire to chase the things he wants from the things themselves. Like, is he all hopped up on his libido or is he hopped up on Jessica specifically? Or is that ultimately the same thing? It's tricky. It's hard to separate those two things out. I do think they're a bit different, but that's such a good question to ask himself given his history of shutting down a lot of his desires and then possibly secretly resenting it or, you know, like stewing on some difficult feelings when he doesn't get what he really wants. Of course. And hey, the other thing you need to figure out is how you feel about Richard.

24:01What role you want him to play in your life going forward in you and his. Do you still care about him? Can he forgive you and still care about you at this point? Is this woman more important than your friendship, less important, whatever? Do you want to bang Buddy for another six months, or is that friendship potentially for decades to come? I'm not presupposing the answers here. I mean, maybe we kind of are in our tone, but these are just good questions for you to ask. You know, Jordan, this whole Jessica debacle, it's interesting. It's kicked up a lot of new questions and feelings for this guy, right?

24:32And they're all swirling around him in a very overwhelming way. and I feel like his job now is to just like pluck them from the air and go like, oh, interesting, there's a good question. What does that say about me? And slowly sort through what this relationship slash mistake brought up. The one thing he can sort pretty easily, though, is this whole I can't control myself thing. I don't think he needs to go through life suppressing all of his feelings. I think it's pretty obvious from our response that we don't think that's the answer. The best case scenario here would have been to acknowledge his feelings for Jessica, sit with them for a bit, maybe talk to her about them, see how she was feeling, whether they were both on the same page, whether they were willing to invite this risk by getting involved with each other and how and when.

25:15That's one way to stay in control while still being in touch with his desires and with himself. But the fact that he feels out of control when a temptation kicks in, that's another thing for him to pluck and look at. Yeah, the language he uses is very telling. Do I restrain myself? Should I avoid the temptation? Do I submit to my desires? Should I learn my lesson? I just get the sense that this is a guy who's kind of at the whim of big feelings. And again, be real, we're human. We're all at the whim of feelings at some point. But the goal, to your point, Gabe, is to get more curious about them, sit with them for a minute before texting your best friend's girl at two o 'clock in the freaking morning.

25:55And maybe this guy struggles to do that or the feelings just have a lot of pull over him. Maybe because, again, I was a nice guy for so long. I'm sick of being trampled you know it reminds me of well I hate to make this comparison but you see these sort of angry guys on reddit that are like I'm sick of tired of this and they blame women for or other people for a lot of them not getting what they want out of life I'm not getting the full-on incel vibe from this guy don't get me wrong sure but it's a lot of the same stuff like now it's my turn and they're like I'm gonna be super selfish but instead of just prioritizing themselves, they're like, oh, this means burning everything in my wake.

26:34And then a year later, being like, why don't I have any friends? Oh, oops. You know, that's not good. It's not a good strategy. How does he advocate for himself and take himself seriously without damaging people around him or taking what is inappropriate? Yeah. Yeah. But this whole thing that you just said about the temptation and the struggle to deal with these big feelings might be why the middle ground feels so risky to him. He feels that he either needs to stay far away from this girl to stay safe, or he needs to go all in with her and risk losing his best friend. And hey, maybe that's true in the short term on some level.

27:06Maybe you guys do need some distance. That's fair. But in the bigger picture, what you could be working toward is a relationship with your feelings that allows you to tolerate the tension of these situations a little bit better. You know, something that makes room for all of these feelings, right? The desire, the excitement, the anxiety, and also the difficult ones you mentioned, the jealousy, the resentment, and gives you more control over how you behave and whom you share those feelings with. That might be the biggest takeaway from this whole thing, that he doesn't need to suppress his impulses, but he doesn't need to be completely enthralled to them either.

27:42Right. So to zoom way out, it sucks things played out this way, but now that you're here, it's time to learn, to be kind to everybody involved, especially Richard, who's off on his own, just dealing with this somehow. on his bunk bed in the apple orchard or whatever. And to be patient while the dust settles. So much can change, and a lot of it is outside your control now. The most important thing is how you move through this and what you take away from it. This mistake, and I'm putting mistake in air quotes because I actually think in some sense this had to happen for you to grow. This mistake is an opportunity for you to learn a lot about yourself, figure out which relationships to prioritize, and develop your values in situations like this, which you're already doing.

28:24So good luck. And anyone in an open relationship, take notes. This stuff can get messy if you're not prepared to manage it well. You know, maybe Richard will forgive you if you hook him up with one of the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Strawberry.me. So I worked with a Strawberry.me coach recently. I ended that call feeling pretty reinvigorated. That's a good word for it. Way more aligned with where I'm headed and why. It's so easy to get caught up in the day-to-day grind, but that session reminded me just how powerful it is.

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29:26If the guy who ran Google swears by it, it's worth paying attention to. Here's one thing I love about Strawberry. You take a quick quiz, they match you with a coach who fits your goals and personality, and you start building real momentum toward the career that you actually want. Head to strawberry.me slash Jordan to get 50 % off your first week. That's strawberry.me slash Jordan. Stop settling. Start building the career you actually want. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell. Introducing your new Dell PC with the Intel Core Ultra Processor. It helps you handle a lot, even when your holiday to-do list gets to be a lot.

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31:16Getting contacts doesn't have to be a hassle. Let 1-800-CONTACTS get you the lenses you need right now. Order online at 1-800-CONTACTS.com or download the free 1-800-CONTACTS app today. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on. All deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Ask the AI chat bot. Email me, I'll shove the code right down your throat. please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, last year, in an effort to make new friends, I started a tabletop gaming group.

31:54We typically meet up at one person's house weekly, let's call him John. John is 10 to 15 years older than the rest of the group and is somewhat eccentric, but I've always thought of him as friendly and kind and been willing to overlook his minor annoyances. Shortly after inviting some new members to the group, there was an issue with John that we all addressed together. After that, we decided to have John and another member, Brad, split the responsibilities of leading the sessions. Eight months later, Brad texted me saying that he's tired of dealing with John's personality and can't handle him any longer.

32:26Upon discussing this with the rest of the group, we also learned that the only woman in the group has been made to feel uncomfortable by some of his comments. Nothing sexual in nature, but he has made some jokes rooted in stereotypes and prejudice. John struggles with social cues and doesn't understand that his sense of humor isn't always well-received. Brad also expressed that he's controlling in the game, doesn't take feedback well, and frequently buys things for the game that he holds over our heads. All of this was enough for the group to decide to move on without him. I advocated for discussing this with him, but the others felt it would only prolong the inevitable.

33:01So Brad and I went to his house to talk. It felt like we fired him from a job. It was cold. Brad did most of the talking while I stared at my feet. Given that he's hosted us for over a year and we're friends, it feels disrespectful and unkind to end things the way we did. I've wrestled with guilt and anxiety ever since. John doesn't fully understand what he's done to rub everyone the wrong way. He said he wants to have a conversation with everybody and that if we could move past this, he would still like to be a member of the group. He feels like what we did to him was mean, and I agree, but I'm not sure if the rest of the group is willing to give him a second chance.

33:38What should I do here? Signed, give him the boot because it's hard, or show this guy our cards. Oh man, this is sad. Poor John. You guys are probably like 35, he's pushing 50, this group is probably a huge part of his life, and the guy just cannot read the room. But then the other members, especially this woman, they're like, uh, yeah, I don't love how John makes me fetch the iced tea from the kitchen and calls me Skirt and buys custom miniatures for our Dungeons and Dragons games and then reminds everyone how he paid for them. You're welcome, guys. So I really feel for everyone here, including you, because you obviously have a lot of compassion for this guy and your loyalties are split.

34:20So, candidly, I'm naturally more in the kick the super annoying tone-deaf man-child out of the group immediately camp because I have a hard time dealing with personalities like that. I just came to sip a hard kombucha and play Yahtzee with my friends, not listen to you crack awkward sexist jokes from a 1970s joke book you found at a yard sale, John. But as I've gotten older, I think I've really begun to appreciate that most people deserve one real chance to work on something. He's probably been struggling with this his whole life as well. Well, I was about to say that, especially when you're dealing with a guy like John, who, I mean, he's not a total monster, right?

34:56He's not like a belligerent racist or an unmitigated a-hole or like physically dangerous. That's a different thing. He sounds terribly socially inept, right? He's just not good with feedback. He makes off-color jokes, which, yeah, that's dicey and maybe hurtful sometimes, but that might be more a symptom of his social challenges than his true beliefs. I do feel someone like that deserves at least a conversation Yeah, the fact that this dude was completely blindsided by this conversation tells me he's probably more clueless than malicious I'm just imagining the other scenario in which you're like Settlers of Catan, anyone?

35:35And then you're just halfway through the game and he's like Guys, the Jews, am I right? And he's like, oh god, okay, then it's a lot easier of a decision The way this could have gone down is listen, John, you're a valuable member of this group. You've been super generous with us. You've added a lot to our games. We really appreciate all of that. But as your friends, we feel we owe it to you to tell you that you've ruffled some feathers in the group. Unintentionally, I'm sure. And it's creating some tension that we'd like to resolve. I know this might be hard to take in. Our goal is not to make you feel bad in any way.

36:09This is just us pointing out some things that need to change if this group is going to continue harmoniously. Our hope is that you can take this on board and make things right with the group so we can go back to enjoying our games together. And then you gently lay out the issues, the jokes, the comments, holding things over your heads, the rigidity, all that crap. Help him see how the rest of the group hears those things. That's John's big blind spot, obviously. And then figure out what he would need to do to fix this, whether it's apologizing to the group or to Brad and this woman specifically, or just correcting his behavior and saying how it goes.

36:45Now, if you have this chat, and in a month, John's back to cracking jokes like, hey, Rachel, did you forget to make us all sandwiches again? LOL, or whatever. Then I think you have full license to say, sorry, man, this is exactly what we're talking about. In fact, pointing out in real time that this is exactly the type of crap we're talking about is probably what this guy actually needs. But why jump straight to the breakup, you know? Yeah, good question. There's a big upside for John and for the group as a whole if he can grow. And if he can't grow, then you'll know that you did your part and he's not ready to get better.

37:16And you won't feel the guilt and the anxiety. I mean, that's really the end of the story. Yeah, I agree. The fact that you're being so thoughtful about John, even when he was the one who acted a fool, it says a lot about you. So don't lose that. Just marry it with a little more courage to have some occasionally tough conversations. It's not easy. This situation, it sucks. but it is necessary sometimes so you guys can play Battleship or Uno or Settlers of Catan or whatever it is without a side of regressive misogyny and nerd flexing. Good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise.

37:51Use descriptive subject lines. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, or your borderline wife got pregnant with another dude and made your life living hell, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 28-year-old woman, and I recently got my heart broken by a man who's 11 years older than me. Our relationship only lasted a month, but within that short time, we formed what appeared to be a sincere bond. We lived 90 miles apart, but the distance didn't bother us.

38:26We clicked well emotionally and intellectually, and we were looking for the same qualities in a partner. When we weren't together on the weekends, we were texting, emailing, or FaceTiming every day. We even made personal Spotify playlists for each other. I can say with complete confidence that I had never met anyone like him before, and we were both excited to see how our relationship would progress. A few weeks ago, I spent the night at his place, and that was also the first time we had been intimate. He was very respectful, and it was obvious that we enjoyed each other's company. Two days later, we had been corresponding intermittently, yet something felt off.

39:03He finally emailed me, canceling our plans for the following weekend, and ultimately broke it off, admitting that our age difference was starting to become an issue for him. He said that he didn't want to lead me on, and that he couldn't see himself falling in love with me. I was completely blindsided and shocked by the whole thing. I told him how devastated and angry I was that he came to that conclusion without trying to talk it out, especially because we had seen each other just a few days before. He insisted that it wasn't about sex, but it still left me feeling taken advantage of. I might sound melodramatic, but I keep replaying our last interaction and wondering if there was something that I might have said or done wrong.

39:41I put so much trust in this person, and it stings because I finally felt seen by a romantic partner, and that's an incredibly rare feeling for me. Am I overanalyzing this entire relationship? Am I justified in feeling this hurt? How do I get over a betrayal by someone that I thought would never hurt me? Signed, stuck in grief and disbelief at the fact that this love was all too brief. Oh man, I'm sorry things played out this way. This is obviously a very painful experience. To find somebody you connect with on several important levels, to then go be intimate with them, trust them, start getting excited about a future with them, and then find out that they suddenly feel differently, and then bam, it's over, that is very difficult.

40:26There's no way around it. So I know how distressing that must be. And I'm very sorry that you're hurting. This is interesting though, because there's no way for you to know and no way we can know exactly what's in this guy's head and heart. All you're left with is what he told you, that the age thing was an issue, that he didn't see a future together, that he didn't want to lead you on, which let's just appreciate, that is maddening. Not just that he feels differently, but that you don't have access to more information about why he feels differently, which is absolutely his choice. And who knows, maybe there's ultimately not much to talk about, but it does deprive you of the information and the closure that you would have liked, and that sucks.

41:06Yeah, what's so interesting to me about her letter is this is how so many breakups work, right? Yeah, most of them, I'd say. I think this is a pretty classic case of that ambiguous loss concept we've talked about on the show from time to time. Sometimes the two parties just don't feel the same things, or want the same things, or they do want the same things, but they don't have the capacity to explore them right now anyway. You know, sometimes one person knows that the other is right from the get-go and it takes the other party a little bit longer to decide. And then sometimes there's another variable like age or sex or distance.

41:39These things might not seem like a factor at first, and then all of a sudden they can become one. So I wonder if what you're angriest at is just this one difficult fact, which is you can't change other people and you can't make them feel what they don't feel and you can't force them to talk to you if they don't want to. And you can't have, to Jordan's point, all the access to them that you wish you could have to make sense of things or feel better. In my experience, that is the hardest part about a breakup. And the really annoying thing is it's absolutely non-negotiable. When things break down, whether you get dumped or you lose a job or someone dies or an offer falls through, whatever the loss is, you kind of bump up against the hard reality of the world and you realize how little power you really have.

42:24Or you realize that the only power you have is in how you respond to the loss and what you choose to take away from it. Right, which is actually a considerable power, but it's not the power most of us wish we had when somebody goes away. Right. The power we want is love me, stay, tell me why. Right, but that's not on the menu here. So are you overanalyzing this entire relationship? Probably not. I think it's pretty normal to dissect a relationship after it ends and replay certain moments. You're trying to understand what happened. You're wondering what role you played in this, what role he played.

42:56That seems appropriate. What I would keep an eye on is what you're trying to get out of that analysis. It's one thing to be curious about why a relationship ended. It's another to torture yourself or to try to give yourself a sense of control by reliving certain moments over and over or to obsess for months and months without coming to any new insights, that's a different thing. But again, this is part of the powerlessness. You just can't know whether something you did or said played a role here. I think it's equally possible that this guy had his own reasons for ending the relationship and that nothing you could have said or done would have changed the outcome here.

43:35But after a breakup, I think we often fixate on the most painful interpretation. We assume we did something wrong as opposed to appreciating that the other person might have responded to us in a certain way or that it just wasn't the right fit. Well, ruminating on the relationship might also be a way to cope with that powerlessness because she can't make him talk to her or give it another shot, but she can replace certain moments and imagine ways she could have controlled the outcome better if only in her mind. For sure. But again, she just doesn't know. And one of her projects right now, it seems to me, is learning to make peace with that.

44:09Right. So are you justified in feeling this hurt? I'd say it's normal to feel hurt and confused when somebody leaves you at a particularly vulnerable moment, especially when a connection like this is very rare for you. But with a little more time and distance, maybe you can hold that hurt alongside some other feelings. Like, for example, that this guy let you know clearly and early on that things weren't going to work out, which is still very painful, but it was the right thing to do rather than dragging things out and leading you on. Or the fact that maybe you got a little ahead of yourself. Maybe you got caught up in this idea of a future with this guy before you had enough data that he was on the same page too.

44:47Everyone does that in love to some degree. So please don't beat yourself up for this. Just appreciating that that might've played a role and how devastating this felt. Great point, Jordan. It's so hard to stay grounded and present in a new relationship, isn't it? Like there's so much, there's a lot of fantasy at work in the early stages of a romantic relationship. And that's when a lot of these stories get created. They almost want to create themselves in your mind. It's kind of wild. So to answer your last question, how do I get over a betrayal by somebody I thought would never hurt me? Well, I actually think there are a couple assumptions buried in that question that are very interesting and they might be worth looking at.

45:22And the first one is that this was a betrayal. You know, I absolutely appreciate why it feels like one. But I think what you'll find in time is that this guy made the decision that was right for him, for reasons you might not ever fully know, and that letting you know at this point was probably the best outcome. Ultimately, you and this guy were not compatible, full stop. It doesn't mean it wasn't a meaningful relationship while it lasted. It doesn't mean you guys didn't really connect in some way. None of this makes it less painful right now, but it's important to remember that if you guys were truly compatible, you almost certainly wouldn't find yourself in this situation.

45:58So it's worth reflecting on whether this is truly a betrayal or just a massive disappointment. I think the devastation you feel is very normal and very real, but the meaning you attach to it will help determine just how painful it is and also how you're going to cope with all of this. It's really an interesting question, Gabe, because what makes something a betrayal. Exactly. Betrayal implies disloyalty, right? But was this guy really being disloyal or was he being loyal to himself by being honest about what he wanted and in a weird way, actually kind of loyal to her by being upfront. And I don't mean to minimize the pain she's in whatsoever, but you're right.

46:36There's a story in that concept of he betrayed me. And that story is probably meaningful too. It's like almost like there was a promise that wasn't explicit or wasn't made at all that existed only in her. It's a covert contract. Remember that term where one side has the idea in their head and the other side is completely unaware of it? Yes, and that might even hold the key to how she interpreted a lot of things in this relationship. The other assumption I would look at is the idea that this was somebody who would never hurt you. I get that you didn't expect him to hurt you. Of course I get that.

47:04But I wonder if there's a part of you that didn't want to believe that things could go differently or that you wouldn't be as vulnerable as you were. The reality is that anybody we care about and any situation we chase has the potential to devastate us and to put us in touch with some very difficult feelings, right? Like them's the rules. And side note, I think that's how you know something is truly valuable to you. You know, if you don't feel vulnerable, if some part of you is not on the line in some sense, then you're either chasing the wrong thing or maybe you're self-protecting. So again, don't mean to minimize your anger here either.

47:37it's totally valid, but I'm just inviting you to consider whether part of the anger you feel is realizing that anyone, including somebody you really connected with, kind of has the potential to break your heart. Yeah, that's another hard reality we come up against in a breakup, that the other person doesn't necessarily owe it to you to spare you any specific feelings. It's brutal, but it is so important. So I hope this gives you some new lenses on this breakup. I'm so sorry you're going through it right now. As you can tell, we know how hard it is. I promise this will get better with time, even if it doesn't feel that way now, it always does.

48:12But in the meantime, one of the best things you can do is try not to have too many judgments about this guy or yourself and just try to appreciate these new feelings, what they've revealed about you, how you operate in a relationship, what you want. The great news is that you were willing to have a deep experience with another person, and when the right guy comes along, this will all be pretty wonderful. mostly wonderful. Love always sucks sometimes, right? I guess. But you clearly have a big heart and that is such a gift. So take care of it. You know what else will blindside you, Gabriel? The crazy good deals on the products and services that support this show.

48:50We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for our sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website. You can email me, Jordan at jordanharbinger.com, and somebody will throw the promo code right into your inbox. Peak lazy, I get it. Whatever we got to do to keep the lights on around here. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show.

49:20It does keep us going, and it makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. All right, back to Feedback Friday. All right, Gabe, what's next. Hey guys, I'm a freshman in high school and a few months ago I found out that my best friend is going to move to Utah. He's from there, so I'm happy that he'll get to be with his family, but it was crushing to find out. He's been my best friend since I moved and has consistently been a source of joy and happiness in my life. I have a small group of close friends, but with the knowledge that my best friend is moving, I've become worried that I won't have many friends and will be lonely without him.

49:55How do I find and connect with new people? How do I figure out who will be my new best friend. And how do I create long-lasting relationships? Signed, wondering what to do without my number two. Uh, yeah, a bro breakup. Very different from the romantic ones we've been talking about, but just as tough sometimes, especially at certain points in your life, like the start of high school. So first of all, hey man, I'm sorry your friend is moving back to Utah. I can hear how much this guy means to you, and I gotta say, I'm very touched by your friendship with him and the fact that you can be happy for him even while you're obviously bummed that he's leaving, that says a lot about you.

50:31It's a great lens to have on life and a pretty mature lens to have at that. So the first thing I want to say is, yes, this is a loss, but I think what you're going to find is that it's totally survivable, but it's also a great opportunity. Whenever people move away, they open up a space for other awesome things to enter, new relationships, experiences, goals, even some solitude, which could be great. It's never just the loss. It's also the space that the loss creates, which we can fill in in all kinds of meaningful ways. And you're already onto that because you're asking how to connect with new people.

51:05I don't have brilliant advice there other than to stay open to people in unexpected places. You know, talk to that kid on the track team you don't usually hang out with, have lunch with somebody new, start a club at school, make time to chat with a teacher after class, whatever it is. It's interesting. I've actually found that when I've lost somebody or something, I'm actually the most open to other people. The vulnerability is powerful, so that's a plus. Honestly, I wouldn't overthink this too much. Just share parts of yourself with other people and see who responds. The people who excite you, who inspire you, who make you laugh, who elevate you, and who you do that for in return, those are your people.

51:44And you don't need to know who will be your new best friend, although that's a damn cute question to ask, man. I mean, don't worry about that. That'll sort itself out. Just get curious about the people around you, invest in them, care about them, and you'll know who takes priority. Yeah, dude, go find yourself a Richard, man. You know, just don't shag his girlfriend. Good call. Yeah, take a lesson from our friend in question one, hey? How do I find a new best friend? And then torpedo the relationship because I can't keep my wee-wee in my pants. But hey, if you're asking about long-lasting relationships because you don't want to go through what you just went through with your friend, I might shift your lens there too a little bit.

52:19The truth is your relationships will change. People will move away. And this is life. This is what happens. It all changes. The goal isn't to find people who will never move to another town or go off to college or take a job in another country. It's to form connections that survive those transitions and in many ways benefit from them. Here's where I can give you some perspective as an older guy. Pretty soon, you're going to love it when your friends move away because then you can go visit them. You can have adventures together in other cities. And when you're really tight with somebody and they move away, sometimes the friendship doesn't get harder.

52:50It actually just gets bigger. There's a lot more space for that stuff as you get older. I love your attitude, man. I'm sorry about your boy moving away, but you can stay close with him. You can go visit. He can visit you, whatever. And in the meantime, you have more room in your life and in your heart for some new friends, which is the hidden gift of this bro breakup. So enjoy that and just reframe this as an exciting time to open yourself back up to new people and new opportunities. You'll be fine, man. All right. So on this last one, And it's a little different. I got a crazy story from a member of my own team who's been with us for a long time.

53:23It's stuff I never knew, never heard, and thought it was pretty incredible. Gabe, take it away. Hey, guys. When I was about 23, I was at the height of my epilepsy seizures. I was on the maximum dose of medication. I was a complete zombie. Some days I would have 10 fits a day. Then I lost my job and was at a real low point. But I felt secure that I was in a loving relationship. Then, one day, she ended it out of the blue and disappeared. As you talked about on the show recently, it was a classic case of ambiguous loss, which I suffered from for years. While all of this was happening, the guy I thought was my best friend also seemed to go cold and disappear, which triggered some abandonment issues I had been wrestling with since I was a kid.

54:08A few years later, I found out that he and my girlfriend had been sleeping together behind my back while we were together at the height of my illness. For nearly 10 years, I was completely broken, really struggled with anything to do with girls. My self-esteem and self-worth were zero. I went from being a social person to struggling to communicate with anyone. During that time, the epilepsy was being controlled, but I was left with trauma seizures that resembled epileptic ones, but had more to do with the rejection that I was experiencing. My terrible communication skills led to more rejection.

54:43I fell into several friend zones with every girl I met. It seemed like an endless cycle. So I finally decided to end it all and planned to commit suicide. Ultimately, though, I didn't go through with it. I decided instead that I needed to get therapy, and it was the best decision I ever made. The second best thing was accidentally stumbling across your old show. Long story short, that led to me working for Jordan at a time when audio engineering on podcasts wasn't really a thing, which I've been doing for 11 years now. And by the way, just to clarify, I know I mentioned this as a member of the team.

55:19This is producer Jace, not to be confused with my previous producer, also named Jason, who left a few years back. This producer slash engineer Jace has actually been with us even longer since almost the start of my podcasting career. Is it only 11 years? I think it's even been longer than that. I could be wrong. Jace is the guy responsible for making everything sound so good around here. He's an extremely talented person, a friggin' gem of a guy, and has one of the most confusing English accents that I've ever heard, which adds to the fun we have on team meetings. But really, Jace just sort of popped up and made the show way better.

55:54In fact, I didn't even want him to edit it at first, because he offered to do it for free, and I was like, I'll do it. And then he just kept listening, and he's like, no, no, no, really, dude, let me do it. Because I was, you know, doing a crap job. But this is so interesting because I never knew any of this. This wasn't on the non-existent job application. Sure, yeah, I wouldn't have volunteered this when you guys started working together. No, generally not. I also adore Jason. I wish I could have read this letter in his dialect, but it's way too hard to do. But it's a great one. It sounds amazing.

56:19So he goes on. I worked intensively through my rejection issues and the trauma seizures went away. I'm no longer on medication for epilepsy either, although I have the occasional fit that I can cope with. As cheesy as it sounds, I've also found forgiveness for my ex and my old friend. I can't have been the best person to be around back then, and I don't blame them anymore. Jordan's travel stories also inspired me to travel, so I did a lot of dating all across Europe and eventually found Edith, my wife, who's the best person I've ever met. One huge takeaway for me from all of this was not only knowing what I want in a partner, but what I want for myself.

56:56Also not settling for life just happening to me, being able to take control. The amount of awesome stuff that I've experienced in the last 10 years was worth every bit of pain that I went through. I'm now 41, and all of this has stayed with me. If I find myself eating poorly, or skipping too many days at the gym, or procrastinating on important work, I always catch myself and steer myself back on track, knowing what's possible if I put in the work. I also understand how important it is to reach out for help when I need it. it's rare that I feel real stress or panic now because of this work that I've done.

57:29I'm just so grateful that Jordan and the show have been like a guiding beacon throughout all of this, mentoring me from afar. Love you guys. Love the whole team more than words can express. Signed, an audio engineer named Jace, who did a total about face and found his place after being in a pretty rough headspace. Oh man. Jace, what a letter, man. That's awesome. I love this letter. Jordan, that's crazy that you didn't know all this. I had not heard any of this. I've worked with Jace for like three years now, but this was all news to me. What an incredible story. Yeah. You know, I had had bits and pieces of this, but when it's all laid out, it's always a completely different thing.

58:04And this is quite a journey. I don't know if I have a ton to add here. We mostly just wanted to share this with you guys, because to me, this is an amazing case study in what happens when you do everything that we've been talking about on this show today. Embrace a breakdown, figure out what it's trying to teach you, put in the work, invest in yourself, have new experiences, grow. I mean, he did all of those things, seemingly just knocked it right out of the park. And not everyone's going to find themselves in a crisis as intense as this, obviously, but we all get a little dose of this here and there.

58:34And I feel that Jace is a brilliant model for how to take care of yourself and evolve when things are obviously not working. The health stuff, you know, that's not on him, but there was a lot of other things that contributed to this. And instead of just blaming everyone else, he went, okay, how do I figure this out? And I love the forgiveness that he had as an element there because he realized it was just imperfect people making mistakes. And another thing that I love about this story is that he's struggled and suffered for such a long time to the point of wanting to commit suicide, which breaks my heart, is so intense.

59:06But then he makes this choice, which is, nah, this is fixable. I'm going to go to therapy instead. Huge, huge life-changing decision. And then instead of just going through the motions, he puts in the work in a very real way, finds resources, including our old show, which is amazing. I think we both got really lucky there. He travels, he meets people, he dates, he works through all this old abandonment issues, carves out roles for himself to do the work he wants to do. And look where it got him. He works from home on this very program. It's extraordinary. It's just extraordinary. No, but for real, it is extraordinary.

59:38It's also what can happen for anyone who's ready to step up and ask for help and then put in time to get better. It's not really that easy. And I would imagine a lot of times it's not fun, maybe a really tough climb, but it's totally doable. Then it all culminates in meeting edit is how you pronounce that. But whatever, Edith, sorry, it doesn't matter. She is going to hear this and then never really take a liking to you, Gabriel. That's fine. She's an amazing person. I really edited myself. No, too late now. Well, you can't It's Jace who's got to do the edit. So it's up to him. I will say she's amazing.

1:00:08You know, I feel bad now because early on when he met her, you know, when your friend meets a great girl and you go, oh, man, she's out of your league because you're ribbing your friend. We did that a bunch. And he's like, yo, are you guys serious about that? Because we really hit that tender spot. We're like, no, we're not serious about that. We're just happy for you. And he's like, oh, man, a lot of people have said that. Are you sure there's nothing to that? And I was just like, oh, crap. We're like giving him a complex about this. I was like, no, it's just something we say in the United States.

1:00:33would basically say like, you know, you don't deserve that, which is not true at all. It's just something you say when your friend meets a great girl. You know what I'm talking about, right, Gabriel? Totally. Yeah. No, I've heard that a hundred times. Yeah. I feel like you always have to say about your friend when he meets a great girl that somehow she doesn't, you know, that you don't deserve her. Yeah, that you don't deserve her. It's like, that's a thing. It's a trope. It is mean, though, when you when you really lay it out like that. I'm very happy they found each other is what I'm trying to say here.

1:00:59The place Jace arrived at where he's weirdly grateful for the pain he went through because it led him to all of this amazing stuff. I think that is also very profound. I think so. It also totally fits in with the forgiveness I mentioned before, right? He forgives his ex, he forgives his old friend, and that stuff often comes in time. He's able to see the part that he played in all that, right? Although not his fault, and they sort of put him on the path in the sort of messed up way that they did. So in a way, how can you not be grateful for the adversity when you're on the other side of that adversity?

1:01:30I can relate to that, having been through the whole show crisis and the reset a few years back. I get it. Well, it's kind of like what we were saying to the woman who got her heart broken by that older guy, right? Like that guy seems to be an a-hole right now, like a selfish guy who pulled the rug out from under her. But in the long run, I think she's going to see that the situation just wasn't right. And his ending it as hard as it was, was ultimately a good thing. And that what they did get to enjoy in the relationship was still meaningful, right? That's a gift. It had to happen that way. Sure.

1:01:59I guess what we're talking about is when you zoom out enough and you're not committed to a narrow meaning of an event, it's all working for you. If, and it's a crucial if, you use these experiences to learn and grow and you put in the work. And sometimes, like in Jace's case here, it seems impossible. It seems too daunting. The hill climb is too high. It's too painful. We don't have the resources. We don't have the physical mental health to make it through, whatever it is. But then look what can happen if you just make a couple of good choices. one good choice, a couple of tiny adjustments, a handful of baby steps, they just all stack up and they literally change the course of your life.

1:02:35So we could talk about your letter for hours here, Jace, but just to say, you're a very special and talented guy. You're a real one. You're an inspiration. We're so glad that you're here and part of the team. And I guess I should thank that dumpster fire of a girl that you dated for bringing you into my life. There's a true betrayal, Well, man, you know, Gabe, we should buy her flowers or something, a bouquet of morning after pills, something. A gift certificate for BetterHelp. Yeah, that's a more PC version of what we could do here. Hey, Jace is over in Prague editing this episode going, nah, she'd never use that.

1:03:09Next. For sure. I can hear you chuckling into your headphones already, Jace. Really honored that somebody would share that knowing that we know them, right? I feel, Gabe, like we get a lot of letters from folks and often they want to remain anonymous, but they also know, I'm maybe they're never going to meet you. Or if I do, you won't remember this. Or if I do, you won't know which is me. Jace has to, you know, look us in the eye at some points. And he still shared all this, which I think is more brave in a way. I agree. Yeah. Hope y 'all enjoyed the show. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened.

1:03:40Thank you so much. Go back and check out Kevin Dutton and Ian Bremmer if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network as evidenced by the previous letter. the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I want to teach you how to reach out and make connections and become a better, I hate the word networker, a better partner, a better friend. Six-minute networking is the course. It's free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Dig that well before you're thirsty, folks.

1:04:07Also, if you haven't signed up yet, our recently relaunched newsletter for the show, We Bit Wiser, takes bites from older episodes, summarizes them, gives you something to think about from the 800-plus episode catalog and apply to your life, jordanharbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. AI chatbot on the website if you're too lazy to run a regular old Google search. And also it says funny stuff. So far, so good. We're really improving on that. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

1:04:41You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

1:05:12In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with Bill Browder, who uncovered a massive fraud inside the Russian government and took on one of the most powerful men in the world, Vladimir Putin. Making 10 times your money is the financial equivalent of smoking crack cocaine. And once you do it once, you just want to repeat it over and over and over and over again. It was completely, absolutely Wild West, chaos, gold rush type of situation. The companies were run by these oligarchs, and these oligarchs said, well, we might as well just cheat everybody on everything.

1:05:51And so while I was sitting there down 90%, they were going to steal my last 10 cents on the dollar. I took a decision which nobody had ever taken before, which was to take on one of the oligarchs. I did. I fought back big time. And I ended up with 15 bodyguards. There was a lead car, a lag car, a sidecar, three armed guys in my car. When we got close to the home, they would go and scout the rooftops for snipers. They would look for bombs under the cars and secure the stairwells and then escort me into the apartment. Then I had two guys with automatic weapons sitting in my living room. It was very, very intense, very scary.

1:06:29And after that, I hired a young lawyer named Sergei Magnitsky to help me investigate it. Sergei and I exposed the crime. The same people who Sergei testified against arrested him and then tortured him to try to get him to withdraw his testimony. And they thought, you know, here's a guy. He buys a Starbucks in the morning. He wears a blue suit and a white shirt and a red tie. And he works in the tax practice of an American law firm. He'll buckle in a week. And it turns out that they got him wrong completely. He's the most principled guy in the world. He was really a man of steel. So on the morning of November 17th at 7.45 a.m., I got the call from Sergei's lawyer, and it was the most horrifying, life-changing, soul-destroying news that I could have ever gotten.

1:07:14For more on how Bill Browder continues to fight for change while being a thorn in the side of Vladimir Putin, check out episode three, which is one of the most popular episodes of The Jordan Harbinger Show.