911: Esther Perel | Cheating, Argument, and Conflict

25:22I'd love to discuss conflict. I know that some of the material you're working on most recently, and I've heard you say, and maybe even on this show, but certainly elsewhere, ask, don't complain when it comes to your partner. Tell me more about that. So two questions, right? Why am I interested in conflict? and then how can people diffuse conflict? It's complain or criticize, right? I mean, John Gottman often says, you know, that behind a criticism, there is a veiled wish. When I say you don't do something, there is actually something that I want. Now I can continue and talk about how you don't do and you don't pick up and you don't clean and you don't attend and you don't, or I can say it really matters to me that.

26:05But if I put myself out there and I say what I want, what I need, what I care about, and you don't respond, then I have to deal with the rejection. If I go at you and I criticize you, I experience myself as less vulnerable. This is the notion about ask for what you want rather than criticize or complain for the thing you don't get. It's okay to have wishes. Make them public. That's first. Now, why conflict? because I think that we're becoming a conflict avoidant society. We are basically experiencing and watching around us massive social atrophy, virtualizing our lives, basically spending entire days at home.

26:45You don't have to go out to work, to exercise, to eat, to see movies, nothing. So where are you going to deal with the friction and the close proximity with other people where you learn to deal with difference and disagreements? And so we polarize. We avoid conflict and we polarize. And that's the context in which I said, I need a good one hour, very deliberate, specific, not generic talk about argument, fighting, difference, disagreement, conflict. The stuff that exists in every relationship and that people are more and more avoiding. You know, people these days tell you, I talk to this person every day, but it's all on text.

27:24They never actually see the person. They never see the effect of what they're doing or saying on the face of the other person. I'm talking to you now and I'm watching every response of yours to what I say. I'm not just talking in the wind kind of thing. So this conflicting is becoming extremely important on a societal level and on a relational level. Romantic, friends, work, all of it. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Esther Perel. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-CONTACTS. You know that last pair of contacts panic? My wife Jen knows it way too well.

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29:29This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant so you can feel comfortable you're finding top talent you can't find anywhere else. The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn, they're 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal when every hire counts. Think about the last time you worked with somebody who just got it.

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30:24Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. If you're wondering how I manage to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network. and I'm teaching you how to build your network for free. I know network is a gross word. You don't like it. I don't like it either. It's really the circle of people that know, like, and trust you. The liking part is kind of optional, but this course is about improving your relationship building skills and inspiring other people to want to develop a relationship with you in a way that is easy, not cringy, very down to earth, not awkward, and not gonna make you or the other person feel gross.

31:03It's just practical exercises that will make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, a better peer, and it only takes a few minutes a day. I scale it way down. I'm talking like five minutes a day or less. And many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Once again, that's jordanharbinger.com slash course. Now back to Astaire Perel. I guess this is maybe not the right question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. How can couples argue well? Are there certain rules or vocabulary changes perhaps?

31:34Because a long time ago, I told my wife, or my wife and I agreed, I should say, that we needed to ditch the, you always, or you never, you know, people start a lot of things, a lot of sentences with that when they're fighting or arguing, because my lawyer mind just goes to the one time I did or did not do that thing, instead of hearing what she actually needs me and wants me to hear. I'm like, well, actually, yesterday I did do that. And she's like, fine, you almost never. And then I'm like, well, I'm right, because I found a hole in your argument, which is, you know, not constructive at all. But it's not just your lawyer's mind.

32:06Anybody would react this way because you've just been dumped a truth about you that you don't relate to. So the always, never, first, and the you and the accusation and the kind of categorical statement, which is meant to express an impression, an experience, a subjective experience, but is presented as an objective fact and truth. Pseudo-factual talk, that's a good one on the list of the seven, eight things you should not do if you'd want to fight better. So I'm going to give you, since you started with the ones you don't want to do, a list of the ones that you don't want to do. And if you avoid those, you know that you're fighting better.

32:43Okay. Yeah. So one of them is this, the categorical absolute character statements that present as truth when they are basically meant to talk about an experience. Number two, kitchen thinking. Yesterday I saw a person and, you know, the minute they were having a conversation about something, she brought in five years of stuff. So put all the piling up, all the dirty dishes in the sink. You can't wash any. Talk about the thing you're talking about and stay focused on that. And don't start bringing in everything else. And when you've lost here, you bring in the next thing. That's another one. Retaliation.

33:15Oh, you hurt me? Let me show you. I'm going to hurt you more. That's another big one. Details. It wasn't Thursday. It was Wednesday. You know, it makes a huge difference in the conversation that we are having. Being right rather than wise. I have a one-up on you and I disqualify everything you say and I use it. And I do, you know, I weaponize your vulnerability at every turn. Whatever you just said, I'm going to just squeeze you with it. I mean, the repertoire of ways that people can have destructive fights is a very, very imaginative. Confirmation bias. I only look for evidence that reinforces my belief.

33:55I think you don't care. And all I do is scan for every time you haven't cared. When in fact, we know that in distressed relationships, there's a lot of good that people no longer see because they only emphasize they're looking for the one thing that's going to strengthen their point of view. That's another cognitive distortion that goes with bad fighting. So what do you do to fight better? The opposite of all of that. Yeah. Look, I'm really pissed. This really upsets me. You know how much this matters to me. You stay to the point. You disagree vehemently. You can be vociferous about it, but you don't get into contempt.

34:32You don't start just blaming. You accept sometimes when the other person says, yes, but when you did this, that really was. And you don't twist it around. You just own it. You take responsibility and you just say, yes, that's true. No, I have people, they listen to a list of what the other one is saying, and then they pick the one thing they can disagree with. No, acknowledge. Did you not show up? Did you forget? Just say, I forgot. Own it. Don't be ashamed about it. Be responsible about it. That in itself shortens the distance. Yes, you are right. I could have done this better. I should have checked.

35:09You're so right, though, how we generate stories around our partners, friends, family, for that matter, everybody in our lives, right? And then we only look for information that confirms that story. You know, she's always late or she forgets to put the cap back on the toothpaste, whatever it is, could be big or small. and then you see when they do that, but you don't recognize the other 50 times when they don't do that because of confirmation bias. And then your pet peeves start to grow. Or when they do other things. Yeah, sure. Every time you bitch about the thing that you don't want to do, then just think about all the stuff you don't have to think about.

35:42Be gracious. Nuclear family life is a bitch, basically. It's really a stressful situation on people, especially if they have on top of it, young kids, pets, and in-laws, and older parents, and all the other responsibilities of life. We were not conceived to live like this. So don't take it out on your partner. You may want to criticize the thing itself, but fighting well is fighting in a way that doesn't make it feel like you have nothing to lose when you have everything to lose. Fighting well is when you say, if I say this now, what will this do to my relationship? Because I could be right, but I will be right and alone.

36:21or I could be right, but I may not be married to you. You know, I may want to be wise and it doesn't matter if I'm right because it's not going to come across. So protect the relationship is probably one of the big things about how you, you know, go tell a friend who is going to agree with you. It's okay, but don't come back home and say my friends all agree with you. I told everybody about all of our personal problems and you're the one that's wrong. There's no universe in which that is a good idea. I will say anything my wife does, anything Jen does to annoy me, I am positive that I'm doing something much worse to annoy her.

36:55And she just doesn't harass me about it. Or she's or she's given up on me fixing some of those things and giving me a lot of grace. So I do try to remember any little thing where I'm like, gosh, she took my washcloth off again. And I'm like, well, she's probably washing it. And if I mention this, she's going to get annoyed because she's going to be like, yes, I did your laundry again. You're welcome. And then I realized that I, you know, am damn lucky. I'm damn lucky someone's taken that washcloth or I'd be washing myself with a three month old washcloth that never gets clean. And do you say that to her?

37:25I never bring up any of this. Actually, I just avoid talking about it at all because I feel like I don't need to bring up that I don't have a washcloth. No, but do you ever say thank you? No, I should say thank you. I don't say thank you. No, I should definitely do that. I'm going to write. I'm going to put a note right now to do that. You know, it's one of the best pieces of advice I ever came up with, but I didn't know it. It's people who told it to me afterwards. It was a situation where a person comes home late and they basically apologize and they think they're being nice because they apologize for whatever, missed the game, missed the dinner, didn't show up, et cetera.

38:01And I said, don't apologize. Because if you apologize, what you're really saying is whatever I did was more important than you. So you're still all important. It's all grandiose. But if you come home and you say, thank you. I couldn't have stayed without you. Yeah, that's much better. Oh, I like that. Everybody rewind that and then listen to that again. Then I'm here at home thinking I'm part of something and not a mashed potatoes and there is the delicious food somewhere else. The other meeting that is more important than me, I've become a part of it and we are interdependent and I know that you rely on me and you acknowledge that, yes, you could not have stayed another two hours if I hadn't been manning the fort here.

38:42It changes the entire power dynamic. It changes the independence. It changes the feeling used and not appreciated. All of it. It actually is one of the most important defenders against conflict. Yeah, that is brilliant. I mean it when I say people hit that back 15 or 30 seconds button on your podcast player and listen to that again. I think that might be one of the most important and easily most practical things that people can use as a result of this? Because I know you're not a person where I can say, give me three top tips for not pissing off your spouse. I mean, but that's a really good practical thing that people can sink their teeth into.

39:18And I think it could change a relationship for the better if you just frame things like that. Because it does frame things as, this is my partner cooperating with me, tag teaming, whatever this life is, and I couldn't do it without them. So thank you for that versus, hey, I'm sorry that you had to sit around for two hours while I missed everything and you did it all. Correct. You got it. Which is why you thank Jen for doing the laundry. I literally made a recurring task on my computer to do that every day until it becomes a habit that I don't have to remember by looking at my task list again. I also feel like the content of a lot of arguments, not necessarily my own, well, actually my own, sure, everybody's that I see and hear about, the content of the argument is never the thing that they're really fighting about.

40:03Like, it's not about the kids. It's not about whatever swimming lessons. It's about feeling like the person is not acknowledged or appreciated to your earlier point or vice versa. It's still strange because even though I feel like I know this consciously, my wife and I will start, I say fighting, but I mean, whatever, lighter, having a little - Arguing. I guess, something like that in the car. And then it's like, fine, cancel the swimming lessons then. And then it's like an awkward car ride home. and it's like, neither of us give a crap about the swimming lessons. It's not about the swimming lessons.

40:32It's hard to zone in on the thing that the fight is actually about, maybe because that thing is deeper and less comfortable than the schedule or the swimming lessons or the teacher thing. Is that what's going on here? What's going on is this. There is what people fight about, and then there is what people fight for. So you fight about the swimming lesson, but what you fight for is power and control. That's the hidden agendas of most fights. Is it an issue of power and control? Whose decision matters most? Who has priority? Is it about care and closeness? Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Can I rely on you?

41:11And respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter? So sometimes in this instance, you're in the car and say, okay, cancer. What is this for you? What are you fighting for? What's underneath? it. And yesterday I had a person and, you know, it was about care and closeness. Can I trust you? Will you be there? And then I said, and why is that the piece for you that is so important? And then you go and layer further, which you do in therapy, but you also can do sometimes in a conversation. It's like, because people get to know each other, you know, Jen. So you're by now, you know, her mom, you know, her context, you have a sense, right?

41:49So in this instance, She tells me, grew up pretty much by herself, took care of the younger siblings. Mother worked alone outside of the house, did the laundry, did the cooking before mom came home, was rather on her own neglected, neglected by the needs of the family. Not that there was an intent to that. So when he doesn't show up, it's not just he doesn't show up because she can't rely on him. It's I've always been alone. I've never had anyone I could rely on. people don't come true for me in this way. My whole life will be like this. And I thought when I marry this guy or when I have a partner that I will have the support that my mother couldn't give me.

42:31That's what I am fighting on. And once you get to that level, it evokes empathy in the other person too. Because now you know it's freaking swimming lessons are like, and you kind of say, I am here for you. I mean, that's not because I don't want to go pick up the kids at the pool that I'm not here for you. So it's not like I'm going to do everything you ask me, but I have a deeper understanding for why this issue is one of our perennial ones. Yeah, 20 years later, we can still have the same arguments in a different form. And that's the what's underneath. It's what you're fighting for. I'm fighting not to feel alone, not to feel like this is the truth of my life.

43:09With you, I was hoping that I wouldn't live this truth again. Everybody has those. It's three things. power and control, care and closeness, respect and recognition. Yeah. I hear in your show and in your therapy sessions, you say things like, so what I'm hearing is, and then you kind of reframe it in different words. I've heard you say that we should da da da, something like that. Is that how you uncover those in that conversation? I mean, you're in the car. You can just at some point say, look, we know it's not the swimming lessons. I want to actually understand it. I mean, otherwise we're just going to continue You have the same old, same old.

43:48And sometimes people know and sometimes they don't. She didn't know yesterday. We went and traveled a little bit until we hit the spot. But it's okay to say, what is it? You know, and then sometimes people say, it's because I feel sometimes that many times it's an easy one. If I have to ask you five times, you obviously don't care or don't hear what I'm telling you. As if you're doing this on purpose, you know? But sometimes people do and sometimes they don't. And so it's stepping outside of the tiny frame and just saying, and then what's it for me? This is the important piece here. It doesn't really matter so much what the answer is.

44:25It's the fact that the question says, I'm care and I'm curious. Rather than I don't give up, you know, it's like, I'm just here to make my point. Rather than I actually feel that we matter. And I'm not going to say stuff that just makes it feel like, no, I know I don't at all. This is the level. You don't go into therapy in your relationship, but you just ask a question that says, what are we doing? Why do you think this thing is every Friday we have the same argument? I noticed as well on the show, you almost never recommend people. I don't even know if I've heard you ever do this, recommend that people break up or end their relationship.

45:04And I wonder under what circumstances, how do we know if something is actually over? So actually there are more than one episodes where I tell people this is over. I haven't heard those yet. Or I said, you better be friends than partners because as partners, you suck. Here's the thing. I am often cautious on the podcast because it's one-time episodes. It's a one-time session. And I don't necessarily have that certainty in one time. In my practice, it's different. I've worked with you over time and I've seen where it goes. And I sometimes really have to say, look, your partner is gone. I know you're fighting to maintain this, but they're gone and you need to hear that.

45:46Or listen, people, there is nothing to work with. It's death upon arrival. Each of you just comes here to basically say you've done a few sessions so that you can go to the lawyer and then screw the other person. No, I'm not participating in this. Or look, you asked your partner to do a bunch of things and they've done all of this. You've done squat. I don't think they deserve you. So I actually have said a lot of things that are all about this without having to say, I think you should leave on occasion. But why don't I say just flippantly? Because I don't have to live with the consequences. Only the person who makes that decision has to live with the consequences and they have to own it.

46:28And I think a therapist can be very powerful. And I don't want to be the one to carry your decision. You need to carry it. So I ask, are you asking me what you should do? Or are you asking me because you've already made your decision? And if you made your decision, I'll support you. Yeah, I think probably a lot of people do go to therapy to get cover for something they've already decided to do or not to do. And that's a waste of your time, first of all, I would imagine. Basically, I know when I'm working towards something and I know when people are basically posturing. or when one person has one foot out the door or when one person is dropping off the other one because they're on their way out.

47:07There's a lot of, you know, why are you here? What are you here to do? In the podcast, because it's one session, I do not feel that I can take that liberty. I'm not a therapist. I'm a podcast host that is doing therapeutic conversations. And at that point, only once or twice did I really say to people, yeah. So the people on the podcast, And to be clear, you really are a therapist, but what you're talking about when you're doing the podcast, you're a podcast host who's doing therapy. Those people have not had a bunch of sessions with you before. They have never been my patients. No, there are 6 ,000 applicants to the new season who want to be on the podcast.

47:46They are not patients and they will never be patients. I keep these things too very separate. That makes sense. Okay. They don't apply with me. They apply with the producers. I show up, they have been chosen. And then we meet and it is in my office and it feels like it's a real situation. But that's it. I will see them once and nobody else has ever seen them. The other people on the podcast, by the way, I call them spontaneously. They send us voice questions and then I surprise them with a phone call all over the world. Oh, wow. And we do the sessions like that. So there's different formats now on where should we begin.

48:24But all of them exploring dynamics of relationships. You do some pretty interesting stuff on the show. I think I heard this. There was a particularly intense conflict and you made people lay on the floor. What was that all about? That was interesting, changing their physiology like that. Have you ever tried to have an argument lying flat? Yeah, I can't imagine. It's probably quite funny. No, we are mammals. We are mammals. We fight by charging. You know, we stand upright. We lift our shoulders. We lower our neck. we protect ourselves and then we attack or defend that you can't do when you lie flat.

48:58So I just want to begin having a fight, the usual, same, all, same. And I said, let's try to do this on the floor. And it indeed instantly changed the physiology, which then made them suddenly completely change affect. The physicality led into the emotionality and it's an extremely effective intervention. And it's something you can do at home very easily if you have a tiny bit of humor. Yeah. Well, one, add humor because it seems like a really good way to deescalate things as long as you don't use humor to avoid the actual issue, which is tempting sometimes. But also, I'm sure there's some science in there like it chills the sympathetic nervous system or whatever and is also quite silly trying to have a shouting match while you're staring at the ceiling fan?

49:44I think that humor is underrated. It's such an important salve in relationships. And I do think sometimes it's meant to avoid. And why not? Sometimes you should avoid going into the same tunnel one more time. No. If you have one person in the relationship who can diffuse it and make everyone laugh, it's not sarcasm. But it's really saying, oh, seriously, we're going to do this again, that it is a gift to the relationship. Humor brings perspective. Humor brings lightness and levity. Humor takes you out of your goddamn seriousness of, you know, and I can't value humor and playfulness enough. When people talk about fighting better, they think it's about fighting better.

50:29It's actually about relating better. And humor in a relationship is such a recognition of the difference of the other two. It's a way of accepting who you're with. I love the idea of being able to have healthy conflict. I know that's probably a buzzword in every sort of relationship circle, healthy conflict, but you just see these little cuts that people have in their relationship turn into these festering wounds over years and years if you can't do this right. And I know I'll link to your upcoming course that I think will be out by the time this episode comes out on conflict so that people can really dig into this because there's going to be a lot more like the things we discussed in that course, I assume.

51:07Yeah. Yes. Plenty. Only. Only. Chock full. Good. That's what I like to see. I'd love to talk a little bit about how you grew up because I know you grew up around Holocaust survivors. Was it true your parents were the only survivors from each of their families? Is that right? Yeah. One came from a family of nine. One came from a family of seven. They both lost everybody and spent each fourth and five years in concentration camps. Oh my gosh, yeah. I grew up in trauma. Trauma, yeah. I guess you have to be a refugee family. Yes, my parents were refugees from Poland who came to Belgium. And then they were five years illegal refugees in Belgium.

51:48And only five years later did they become legalized. And then our first passport were UN stateless passports. Oh, wow. I didn't even know they had those. I'd never heard of that. It makes perfect sense for a conflict like that. Are you Jewish or were your parents just Polish that were pushed out of Poland because the Nazis were horrible to everyone? No, they were not gay, not gypsy or Roma, and they were Jewish. Were Jewish, okay. So those were the three main groups that were annihilated. I think even non-Jewish Poles were also put in camps, were they not? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did y 'all have the couches covered in plastic?

52:23That's what the immigrant families back in Michigan where I grew up always had. Plastic on everything. Couch from 1965 looks like it's new, except for it has a butt print in it that goes all the way down to the wood. Beautifully descriptive. So this is very interesting, this couch metaphor, because I've often used it to describe what I saw as a distinction in the community of Holocaust survivors that I grew up in. But it's a distinction that I've used for all couples. Among survivors, there were those who did not die and those who came back to life. That's what I see in relationships too. Relationships that are not dead, but they're just surviving, and relationships that are living and thriving.

53:02It's the same metaphor. And the ones that survived, that didn't die, were the ones who had covered couches and lowered shades. And the world was a dangerous place, and you didn't really take many chances, and you avoided risk, and you didn't trust anybody. And the ones on the other end of this were often what I call the people who understood the erotic as an antidote to death. They understood vibrancy and aliveness and vitality as a way to just embrace life. They didn't survive for nothing. And those people didn't have any plastic on their couches. The plastic on the couch, it never really made a ton of sense to me, right?

53:40It's like you got to use the thing and really enjoy it. But you're right. The plastic on the couch is we've got to protect this thing. Eventually, you don't end up with a new couch that you take the plastic off of. You end up with an old couch that's still worn and used in a different way that you just didn't fully enjoy because it had that stupid plastic thing on it that when you laid down just made you feel sweaty and icky. The key word is the enjoy. When you are in survival mode, when you are vigilant, when you see danger everywhere, when you don't take off the plastic, you don't allow for joy and pleasure.

54:13That's the piece. It's like, because when you are experiencing joy or enjoyment or pleasure, you're not vigilant. You can't be anxious and experience pleasure at the same time. Whereas when you are in the side that embraces the danger of life as a fact of life, but you are in the erotic experience of it, you're going to live life at its fullest, then you experience pleasure. You can't be watchful and experience pleasure at the same time. And so that's the essence of the word when you say the couch is an old couch that you never got to enjoy. The lack of enjoyment is the key word here. This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Esther Perel.

54:55We'll be right back. The wait is over. Dive into Audible's most anticipated collection, The Best of 2025, featuring top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all genres. Our editors have carefully curated this year's must-listens, from brilliant hidden gems to the buzziest new releases. Every title in this collection has earned its spot. This is your go-to for the absolute best in 2025 audio entertainment. Whether you love thrillers, romance, or nonfiction, your next favorite listen awaits. Discover why there's more to imagine when you listen at audible.com slash best of the year. If you like this episode of the show, and why wouldn't you?

55:39I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors, all of the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using our AI chatbot on the website as well over at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Esther Perel. It sounds like you had a lot of cultures blending together around you. It explains probably why you speak nine languages. And it sounds like a lot of different foods from day to day, languages from day to day, types of people in the house from one day to the next.

56:16I would guess you became pretty adept at not only flipping languages, but flipping cultures or perceptions or the what's the lens that you look at through the world, right? Because if you're speaking German, you have that German lens on the world. And then if you speak French the next day or the next hour, it's probably a very different lens on that conversation or that social interaction or just on everything that's around you in that moment. I love when I tour in Europe to be giving a talk in Flemish or Dutch and then a talk in German and then a talk in Spanish and then a talk in French and then a talk in Hebrew, all within three weeks.

56:52I love it. I think it's like different parts of me wake up. The conversation is different. It's traveling at multiple levels. It's not just traveling other countries. So yes, languages are very important to me. I work in seven of them and it is a gate to the world. And I am a traveler by nature in the way I'm not just because I travel, but because I like to enter very different worlds of my own. Were you conscious about learning all those languages? Was it kind of like, I want to know what everyone is saying? Or was it just exposure to all these languages over time, and you learned them through osmosis?

57:28So we spoke five at home. Wow. My father was illiterate, by the way. He could not write, and he kind of taught himself to read newspapers. But it's not that there was education. I'm the first to win to college. But Flemish and French are the two main languages in Belgium. My parents spoke Polish, Yiddish, and German with each other. So those were floating around. I am schooled in Flemish. I know I have a French accent, but I'm actually from the Flemish part of Belgium, schooled in Flemish. Then I traveled to Italy. Then I got involved with South American music. Then I was in a Brazilian band, stuff like that.

58:05You learn in school, you learn traveling, you learn on the pillow, and you learn at home. Did you ever ask your parents why they survived when other people in their family didn't? Did that sort of define? I know a lot of survivors, they have guilt around that or they have a story around that. I was very, very blessed that I had parents who they didn't have survivor guilt. They wanted to live. They fought toot and nail to stay alive. Like most survivors, they will tell you that the first reason they were alive is because of luck. Just they didn't get round up. They didn't call into the triage of the day or things like that, you know, or that day didn't freeze minus 20, you know, so that they kept their feet and stuff like that.

58:49They could continue work. But after that, I think both of them were always hoping that they would be reunited with family at some point, that they would, that somebody was waiting for them somewhere. And they know my whole family of my mother's side went to Auschwitz. My father's family went to Treblinka. And so that was very, very clear to them. But I think they were the youngest in their families. Grew up in a tiny village with a horse and a carriage and it was freezing weather and he had concrete bags on his back. And he said, you know, we were more prepared than the Jews from Paris and from Greece.

59:26We were used to the cold and to the hard life. And we had a wish to live. We were fighting to stay human and to stay alive. Does growing up in an environment like that contribute to maybe a sense of impermanence or instability at all? I mean, refugees, different cultures, or because I guess that could go either way, right? It could be like, wow, look at this mix of everything. And we're at the center of it. What a blessing. Or it could be, wow, I don't know who I am or where we're from or anything. It's just all a big jumble. No, we are very, very rooted. I mean, my mom's statement was always, oh, never forget who you are, because then you know why you're trying, who you want to be and why you're fighting for, et cetera.

1:00:04But no, I think for me personally, I would say the awareness that at any moment, everything can disappear is something that I live very, very intensely. It's a constant sense of awareness and sometimes dread that comes from their story. You know, you wake up one day and your whole life is gone. That is very present for me. At the same time, I live as if it's not going to happen. I take risks. I do things. So it's a combination of two things. You know that there is danger, but you live as if you're fearless. That's very Jewish, I think, in many ways, or at least Jewish, as it seems, from my family's culture and the other Jews that I know.

1:00:53The whole something bad might happen at any time is very much a... Is that trauma? or is that just Judaism? That's collective trauma. Yeah, okay. No, I don't think it's necessarily Jewish or I will put it this way. It's Jewish because it's historically so because it is part of the collective consciousness of Jews. This is the history. It has repeated itself all along. So that awareness of the impermanence of things, of the, you know, we don't have buildings. We have books for that very reason. You know, no cathedrals. There's books. the stuff you can carry with you because you're about to be in exile once again.

1:01:32And the Jews are not the only people in exile. There's plenty of other people in exile too. But if you ask specifically about me, yes, that notion of impermanence, of the world is at any moment can switch in front of you. Don't take anything for granted. It's very present. And in a good way too, that allows you to thank people so that you don't have to think later. Oof, I wish I had thanked them more. Did the wide exposure you got as a child lead to this deep understanding of human nature and empathy of the kind that you seem to bring into your therapy sessions and the show? Or is that something you developed professionally later on?

1:02:10No, I think I grew up with it. I had a father specifically who, while he was illiterate, was an extreme humanist. He saved 60 kids on his own. He did a lot of good things for people. and he was probably one of the least judgmental people. And he really taught me not to be quick to judge and not to just jump on the high horse and not to accuse without knowing. And he, in a gentle way, he didn't make a speech about it. I just saw it, you know. He always had a way of saying, well, you don't know, you know, you don't know what may have happened to them before or you don't know what happened in the morning or just chill, you know.

1:02:54Don't judge. And I think having been judged and having been so discriminated and so persecuted, you can come out to both sides. You can come out the person who persecutes others and identifies with the aggressor and does to the others what was done to you. Or you can come out with a level of kindness toward people that was really, he was adored for those things. And I really picked that up. I think one of the things people will often say about the work is it's firm, it's direct, but it's not judgmental. How did he save the kids? He created the black market in the camp and he had a trafficking of potatoes.

1:03:34Potato trafficker. My goodness, that's not something you hear every day. No, he didn't get much else to eat there. So he created the whole black market and was able to feed people. One potato more meant another day of life. Didn't make a big deal out of it. Somebody else said to me, I'm one of those 60 kids. Wow. That must have been quite a moment when you found out that your dad saved not only one person, but 60 people. Yeah. In a camp where he was fighting for his own life and could easily have justified just not caring about anybody else. But you know, it's attached to a story. Because when I went to the camps with him one day, he described how he fell in love with this woman in the camp.

1:04:13And he had decided, I'm going to help her. She had arrived late. You know, she was in the, it was 44. But then he got caught sending her notes. Now, it never occurred to me to ask him, who wrote for you? Because you can't write. In what language did you communicate with this woman? How did that happen? But anyway, I took the story and he got caught. And then they took him out of the kitchens and back to the factories. And he said, I would have survived 10 days. You didn't last there. But the SS came to him, the German, and said, I eat better when you're in the kitchen. And he put him back in the kitchens.

1:04:49Wow. So he didn't just save the kids. He also fed the... Gosh, good thing he knew how to cook well. That's, I mean, it literally saved his life. No, no cooking. My father didn't know to make an egg. No, no, he just smuggled potatoes. Wow. So even the SS was starving at this point, I guess, in the war. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And my father's best friend was the cook. So he cooked the freaking potatoes. Jeez, wow. That's really something. I mean, gosh, it just shows you how traumatic and how hard life was, even at that point where the people who are running the camps were like, hey, we need the extra potato.

1:05:22It's bad. Every day. That is so awful. All right. Well, look, not to be the podcast that brings everything around to AI and artificial intelligence, but I'd like to bring this around to artificial intelligence. You sort of touched on this at the top of the show, but as an expert in intimacy and human connection, where do you see us heading as a species when everybody can have a soon we'll have a bespoke AI in our pocket or even attached to our brain that just wants to make us happy. One of my worries is that as a society, we already polarize so easily in part because nobody wants to challenge their beliefs.

1:05:54Nobody wants to be uncomfortable. I think it's probably going to get a hell of a lot worse when we don't have to, you think leaving the cap off the toothpaste, fine, just instead have an AI partner that confirms whatever we want to hear or, you know, my wife doesn't just tell me everything I want to hear, as you might imagine. And I'm worried that we're going to go even further down the tubes socially. So I have two associations to this. You know, the first is, I think I'm very interested in the rise of the other AI. And I call it artificial intimacy. Clever. Hijack that buzzword. I love it. This is where we are going.

1:06:30And interestingly, this thinking started for me when somebody created an AI bot of me. Guy broke up with his girlfriend, couldn't get a session with me, and basically decided to create me. and he finds me very useful. He texts me all the time. The AI is there. And it's exactly that, what you just said. She's pure. She's always available. She never forgets anything. Her personal life never enters into the picture. It's, you know, anything fantastic that has nothing to do with the reality of relationships. So then I began to think, you know, what's going on with this AI piece is that, and this is probably where there's a big distinction between relational issues or problems or challenges and the world of technology altogether, which is that most relationship issues are not things that you solve with binaries, zeros and ones.

1:07:26You know, what you should do with your kids, what should you put grandma in a nursing home? Should dad come and live with you? I mean, those are not right and wrong things. Those are complex problems that you have to hold contradictions. Technology doesn't like that. Technology operates on everything is a yes or no. We simplify the problem to the point where we can have a clear answer. And that clear answer leaves you without a single doubt. You have Netflix, you have Waze, you have Spotify, you have, you know, if you're single, you have your dating app. So you have what to watch, where to go, what to wear, what to eat.

1:08:04You are surrounded with predictive technologies that are meant to give you an immediate answer without a single doubt and that are producing people that are more and more anxious because they can't deal with uncertainty, with doubt, with the unpredictabilities of life. You would think that all these predictive technologies will make us more confident, but in fact, they are making us more and more anxious. and then we talk about a mental health crisis and we don't connect the dots. That's what brought me to be interested in AI. And I'm in one space after another that talks about AI, but wants one person who talks about the effect of AI on relationships, not our expectations of the machines, but what this will do to our expectations of people.

1:08:56When people go to machine therapy, They are, this guy, by the way, he's very satisfied with me on the AI, Esther. Sure. He thinks she's giving him very good therapy. But what we know from the research is that he thinks it's very good because his expectations from technology are lesser than his expectations from people. Oh, interesting. It probably is also telling him largely what he wants to hear, right? Because isn't that kind of what AI does? It regurgitates a summary of everything I've said. My podcast is public knowledge, so you can have transcripts. But, you know, a good session is not a regurgitation of everything I've said before.

1:09:33A good session is me picking up on you, Jordan, the specificity of you in that situation with your kid, Jen, your friend, whoever, you know, and I come up with something that is tailored for you. I'm not just summing up, you know, the sum total of what I've said everywhere else. That's what makes it meaningful and relevant to you. And that's what strengthens our relationship. So that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of good use to be done with telehealth and with bots. They will help you on symptoms, but the majority of us don't deal with symptoms. The majority of us deal with existential questions.

1:10:11We're joking about never having to unload the dishwasher again or something, but then here's an AI that spends all day telling you how great you are and has absolutely no emotional needs of its own. I do expect people to be in sort of weird parasocial relationships with AI eventually, But I also worry that as the curve of technological development goes up, the curve of personal development goes down. And I don't mean like self-help, but just like being able to have a real social atrophy. Yes, exactly. You lose the ability to deal with nuances, with the unpredictability of people, with smell, with the messes of relationships, with real life.

1:10:46What technology does, what your machine there, what your clean dishwasher is doing is it's taking out all the wrinkles, all the rough edges, all the frictions, which actually are the stuff that we need in order to learn to live with people. You gotta have those fights about the swimming lessons in the car. You can't fast forward through those things. And back to your points about conflict, it helps you grow as a couple, but it also helps you learn about yourself doing things like that, having experiences like that with someone else in a relationship. And that's going to be gone with AI unless it just pretends to be annoyed with you about something.

1:11:21But it's not going to be the same thing as much as it might learn how to mimic human behavior and emotion through text. You know, we are already having these relationships. We talk to Siri constantly. We tell her what to do and we decide what accent we want her to have. And Alex, I mean, we're in it. But there is something on the way to a fundamental change of what it means to be humor. What accent does your Siri have? I'm curious. I haven't bothered to choose mine. She's actually totally American and I never talked to her. But yesterday, my husband put his Google map and I said, why is she speaking with an Australian accent?

1:11:55Yeah, it's kind of fun to do that. But we do have the relationship. But I think that anyone who has kids and watches what happens with the enormity of time that people are living with the screen and being completely hijacked, notices that something is fundamentally changing. And we can pretend not because we want to be with the wave of the future and with wherever the next energy in the economy goes. But it warrants us to pay attention. It is changing something fundamental in how we relate to each other. And it has political consequences. I've heard you say, and I'm paraphrasing here, modern loneliness, it often manifests itself as hyperconnectivity.

1:12:39connectivity. So those who think this isn't happening to me, you might have a thousand online friends, but you don't have anybody to come and feed your cat while you're away, I think is how you put it. Yep. And I worry that it's going to be that on steroids when everybody is talking to an AI and thinks this isn't hurting me. I'm just using this to make my life easier. And then you realize that you can't relate to other people in the same way because it's not as easy. Correct. That sentence to me was came out with literally in my office. Then I took the sentence with me and went to check it around the world.

1:13:11You know, how many of you could have somebody that you need to go get a prescription for you at the pharmacy? What is this hyper connectivity actually? You know, we talk about loneliness. We talk about suicide. We talk about breakdowns of institutions. We talk about the fact that the burdens of the self have never been heavier. But when you talk about it like that, it feels very abstract when you actually look at the life of actual people and especially younger people, as I do, it warrants attention. You know, nobody's turning the clock around, but there are consequences to this that affect the way that we relate.

1:13:49And in any responsible change and progress, it needs to be taken into account. Esther, I know we're running out of time. It's an honor to know you. It's an honor to be your friend. It's good to be back with you. We should not wait so long. I was just going to say, I'm going to have to try harder for you to come back sooner than five or whatever years that have slipped by. And I'd love to do it in person. I know that's next to impossible, but I'm determined to figure it out. Keep going. You get there. Thanks so much. Be well. Bye-bye. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about the evolved strategies of human mating.

1:14:24So I'm an evolutionary psychologist and I'm very well known in my scientific communities. I talk to people about mating all the time. And I learn something practically every day from people. So our predictions of what is going to make us happy are known to be off base. Sometimes people pay a lot of attention to the mate attraction process and not enough attention to the mate retention process. Men and women have overlapping mating psychologies, but in some domains, dramatically different mating psychologies. It's become fashionable to try to argue that men and women are really identical in their mating psychologies, in their sexual psychologies, but they're not.

1:15:06I think that's one of these kind of ideologically driven agendas. And we know scientifically that the areas in which they differ. You know, I think one of the myths is that somehow we're supposed to meet the one and only when we're at a very young age and live perfectly happily ever after for the next 50 years with no bumps in the road. And I think that's just naive. There's a new body of research that talks about the dark triad, and the dark triad is also more likely to cheat. Dark triad is high narcissism, high Machiavellianism, and high psychopathy. People who are both men and women who are high in these dimensions are much more likely to cheat.

1:15:49You want to avoid those in a long-term mate for sure. Avoid emotional instability and avoid narcissism in potential mates. To learn more about what people want in a mate, successful tactics of mate attraction and more with Dr. David Buss, check out episode 758 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Love, love, love talking with Esther Perel. I got to do that way more often. She's busy, duh, as you might imagine, but she is amazing and this was worth the wait. Many men end up isolated and friendless. We never really touched on this. Women should not only quote unquote let men have social engagements, but encourage it.

1:16:24Us guys, man, we have a real issue with that. But next time she wants to do a talk with me on men and friendships, I think we definitely have to have her back for that. I know as an adult male, friendships are tough, man. Even from guys who are like, okay, I got to get a handle on this. It's odd. We are awkward with this. We really are. I had one guy say, hey, I met you a long time ago and you seem like an interesting guy. And I know this sounds really weird, but I kind of want to be friends. And guess what? We're friends now. It was like kindergarten. He just said, hey, you want to be friends?

1:16:50And I was like, yeah. And we met up for a beer and lunch and it was great. And I have a friend now. And I feel like, holy crap, how did I forget how to do this? I did this the first day of kindergarten and probably never did it since then. And it still works. But yeah, it is a little weird if the other person's like, what are you talking about? This did work out and maybe was a little bit of a perfect storm. But still, we got to get a handle on this, folks. As for the cheating, I didn't have the heart to ask her this, but I was wondering if we could harness the feeling of wanting somebody else in a way that doesn't get us into trouble.

1:17:17Or, you know, if we're really tempted with somebody else, what do we do? Do we just imagine that person doing all your pet peeves? Like they leave the cap off the toothpaste. They leave food out and they don't put it in the fridge. They leave the kitchen cabinet open. They never unload the dishwasher or worse, they load it in a way that's really inefficient and weird and your engineer brain just can't handle it and then you want to strangle them. Asking for a friend or saying that for a friend or they just like poop with the door open and you can't deal with that. I don't know. Is that what you have to do?

1:17:45I feel like that would work actually. The dishwasher thing, especially. By the way, she's got a card game. That'll be linked in the show notes. She's also got a course on conflict. That is going to be amazing. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. I mean, she's an amazing therapist. This conversation was amazing. That course is definitely going to be equally slash more amazing. So if you're dealing with conflict in your relationship or you're not dealing with it, as many of us probably are, you should definitely check out that course. And don't forget, she has her own podcast as well. Where should we begin?

1:18:12We will link to that in the show notes, along with the transcripts, which are always in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. please consider supporting those who support the show. We've also got our newsletter where we dig into an older episode every single week and we dissect the lessons from it. If you wanna know what to listen to next, you want some highlights and takeaways from previous episodes, the newsletter is a great place to do that. And we've got giveaways going on there. JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

1:18:40Don't forget, six minute networking, also on the website, JordanHarbinger.com slash course. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. Now, if you know somebody who's interested in therapy, cheating, relationships, or just loves Esther Perel, and who doesn't, definitely share this episode with them.

1:19:16In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.