945: Estranged from Son for What His Sister's Done | Feedback Friday

23:38Or did it maybe send the message that he will happily spend money on them, but he isn't always able to be in deeper communication with them, including digging into any conflicts that come up like the one that is playing out in this very letter. That's an interesting theory. So you mean like, is dad buying their love? Not intentionally or anything, but is that sort of, like you said, the love language in the house? I don't know about buying their love. I don't really get the sense that that's what he's doing. I guess what I mean is there's clearly a theme here of spending a lot of money generously, including on people who might not always deserve it and people whom it might not be totally appropriate for him to support, like his ex-stepdaughter, you know, who has been to rehabbed multiple times and stolen from him sounds like three times.

24:21So I'm just wondering what spending money means to him. How does he use money to relate to his kids or create these experiences and have these amazing gifts become a kind of currency in his family, even if the money is this really beautiful thing in their lives? That's what I'm saying. I see. So has that currency shaped his relationship with his oldest son or does it maybe make it hard for his son to come right out and tell him what's bothering him. I don't know. Exactly. Yes. Especially because he's asking, do I keep paying for my son's life? So this might be a nice opportunity to think about the specific ways you want to support your son and also your other children and whether all of these ways of helping are really encouraging him to become the most successful person he can be.

25:01And also the most independent person he can be because becoming independent and thriving on his own apart from mom, I actually think that that would be very, very helpful to him right now. and then he might be able to get some distance and not be beholden to one parent too much. That could actually be the thing that eventually brings you back together. Right. When he has a job in his own apartment and he talks about this with people who don't have the same biases, he might suddenly go, oh, I might have picked the wrong parent here or at least, oh, I don't need to cut off one parent to make the other parent happy.

25:33That's unhealthy. Or I have some feelings about dad that I need to work through, but I don't have to punish him or isolate myself in order to do that. Exactly. Right. But those thoughts are probably very hard to entertain when mom is taking up a lot of real estate. Yes. Psychological real estate in his life. We should also differentiate between paying for your kids necessities and paying your ex-wife for child support. Look, people have different opinions on this, but I think you have to be careful about withdrawing the first one just because you've set the pattern of doing it in the past. The child support is way more sus because it sounds like your ex-wife might just be using him as a weapon to get you to foot the bill, right?

26:12He's an adult now. He's not going to college. So my feeling is he should get a job or find some kind of direction. And it sounds like she almost doesn't want him to do that because then he's more reliant on her. But then she's like, oh, but he's expensive. Let me see if I can manipulate dad or force dad into paying for me to be able to keep his son from him. That's what this sounds like. But I think if you stop paying for his cell phone and stuff like that, then it's almost like, well, if you don't talk to me, I'm not paying for, you know, you don't want that vibe set up. I'm sorry that you're going through this.

26:43Really, I am. I can only imagine how painful it must be to have a child not talk to you. I would be crushed if Jade did that to me. And this might suck for a while. You might have to be patient. You'll have to bear the sadness of not being in touch with your son for a little while, really. And knowing that his mom is just pulling the strings and filling his head with all sorts of crap. It's awful. but there are a few bright spots here. Namely, your relationship with your middle son and your daughter. That all sounds really special. Another huge bright spot, your current wife who sounds so different from your ex.

27:14All of this is a nice reminder to be even more grateful for that relationship. I mean, I'm trying to imagine Gabriel going on a vacation and you bring your wife and she's like, yeah, we're gonna go to Europe. And you're like, yeah, I'm gonna bring my ex-wife and her new husband. and your wife's just like okay i get it it's about the kids amazing give that woman a kiss a fat kiss on the lips for putting up with that shit i mean all of them really they all deserve credit for that i think it's beautiful yeah it really is also your ex-wife's husband we didn't talk about that guy he's just a footnote but he's probably an okay guy because i don't know if i'd be like yeah you want to go on vacation with your ex-husband and he's gonna pay for it that's totally normal and cool.

27:56Let's do that. It might be awkward. He might feel emasculated because of that. Instead, he's just like, I'm playing the game because of the family. How fun would it be, though, to be a fly on the wall on their family vacation in the hotel room? I'm so curious if he's also being manipulated and run ragged by this manipulative ex-wife. Or is he like, oh, he wants to take us to Vienna for six weeks? Sure. Why not? Sure. I'm a freeloader. I'll do it. Yeah, I could go either way. Makes you wonder. So look, keep investing in the parts of your life that are working really well, this situation with your older son, it will resolve at some point as long as you stand by.

28:29You keep yourself a safe place, a safe person. You keep that door wide open without too much anger or judgment. What you don't want is for him to have to come to the conclusion slash admit that he was stupid and screwed up when he changes his mind and comes back. You want it to be okay for him to go, oh man, I kind of messed this up, but my dad's totally gonna get it and not throw it in my face for the next 10 years. If he gets that vibe, if that's the dynamic, that's going to make things a hundred times harder. This is like the advice we give when people are in a cult, right? Don't make it so that if they come back, they have to be like, the cult was a bad idea and I'm an idiot, mom.

29:05Yes, you are. I told you so. No, I told you so's. Just open arms. That's it. Sending you and your family a big hug and I hope that you and your son reconcile soon. And also that you've changed the security code on your house would be probably a good idea. Yeah. And that your kids don't give it out anymore. I was going to say, we didn't touch on that. And how did that happen? It makes you wonder, although it also incriminates her even further. So manipulative nonsense, right? The sister was probably like, oh, your dad, you know, just in case there's an emergency. Oh yeah. The code's two, seven, five, four.

29:34I mean, they're probably like 13 or 12. They don't know. If I ever just want to come over and maybe walk fluffy and check on the house and they're like, oh, that's nice of you. Wait a second. But they knew about the last two break-ins because they lived there, presumably. Surely they did. So that's my reservation is like, how are you even anything older than like eight? It's possible that they were much younger when those earlier break-ins happened. It's possible they were young and they also believed that the sister didn't do it, even though everybody, maybe they didn't tell the kids, your junkie sister broke into the house.

30:03It could just be someone broke in and we don't have proof and we're not admitting that Angela robbed us twice. Who knows? Speaking of using money to express your love, how about a word from our sponsors? We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals, or email me. I'll surface a code for you. It's that important. Jordan at jordanharbinger.com. All right. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right. What's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

30:39I was laid off from my job after 14 years last year. After two months of applications, resume rewrites, interviews, and networking, I finally got a job offer for$60 ,000 more than I was making and a double step up for position level in the corporation. With no other gainful employment and my last$2 ,000 in the bank, I accepted the offer. All in all, a great move for me personally. Wow, that is amazing. Can you imagine the feeling when you have your last$2 ,000 in the bank and no other irons in the fire and someone's like, here's a job. Oh, and by the way, it pays 60 grand more than your last job.

31:15I hope that's okay with you. That must have been such a great day. That was the greatest going out to lunch after that phone call in the history of lunches. Correct. Wow. Good for you. But the offer is a couple states over, and I have a 16-year-old daughter, and I share custody with a less-than-involved mother. Oh, okay. Yeah, this is tough. At first, my daughter was excited to go, but worried how her mom would react. Since then, she's decided that she would rather graduate with her current school. Early on in my discussions with her, I told her that she was more important to me than a title or money, and she was safe to make a decision that's best for her.

31:53I haven't gotten any other offers, and I'm supposed to start with this new company next week. They said they were flexible on when I would have to be in-state, and that I could start remotely. I'm giving myself an ulcer. If I follow through and relocate, I'm effectively telling my daughter she isn't as important as money, and I break my word to her. If I work but try to remain remote without intending to relocate, I feel I'll lose this opportunity and have a black spot on my resume. Although once my daughter graduates in 18 months, I would absolutely relocate. What's the best way to approach this with a company?

32:26Is there a chance I can salvage the job through regular travel and being super available remotely? How would I go about that conversation with my boss? Signed, stuck between being her rock and a hard place. Ooh, yeah, good question. I totally get the binder in, and I'm sorry you have to make this choice. This is a huge step up. 60 grand's nothing to sneeze at, and it's extra compelling after this really tough period professionally, but then you have your daughter to think about, so I think you're dead on that if you accept the job and relocate, you're effectively telling your daughter she isn't as important as money, and you did go on record saying you're more important to me than a title or salary, so for you to take this job would then seem like maybe you're going back on your word.

33:09And at her age, that could play a big role in her trust in you, her feelings about you, the quality of your relationship as a whole. So in a way, this decision is very simple. I think you gotta choose your daughter. And one way to assess this would be, fast forward a couple years or, you know, 30 years and ask yourself, would I rather have that title in the extra 120 grand or would I rather have two more years with my daughter? Given what you shared, I'm pretty sure you'd say your daughter. However, before people get mad and send us emails, there's one big bright spot here, this whole start remotely and move out here when you can thing.

33:43So here's what I would do. This is maybe a little professional Dark Jordan coming out. Accept the offer. Tell your new company you need a couple months to sort things out at home and plan for the move because you got a kid and you got to change schools and all that stuff. Then while you're working remotely, just slay it in your new job. Put in a lot of extra hours. Over-deliver in every conceivable way. Exceed your goals. Make a real effort to get to know your teammates and the higher-ups. Build great relationships with them. Just knock it out of the freaking park. Then, at the two-month mark or whatever it is, ask for a few minutes with your boss and tell him that your circumstances have changed somewhat.

34:23Your daughter wants to stay. You thought she was going to come with you. It was all signed and settled. And as a father who also loves his job and wants to be a great professional, you're just stuck. And at that point, I think this is going to be a very different conversation. It's not going to be, hey, I'm a candidate who can't come out there. It's going to be, look, if you kill it up until then, this company might be so psyched about you that they're willing to let you stay remote or you fly out once a month or you do two years of remote work and then you move and or the prospect of you quitting and them having to interview a bunch more people and then hire a new person and train them and they might not do as well as you and they probably won't do as well as you.

34:59that's going to be so onerous that they're just going to go, okay, fine, stay remote. Look, it's working out. Fly out for all hands meetings and major events. Let's revisit this in a year. So that's what I would do. The job sounds amazing. And if you really put in the work, you might just get everything you want here. Sometimes, man, the best move is just to say yes to the immediate next step and just trust that the later step will sort itself out, or you're going to find a clever way to change the equation somehow. I'm not saying con your way into something and lie. But I think you can cover this here.

35:31I totally agree. That is exactly what I would do, too. Worst case scenario. I mean, what they say no. And he says, OK, I hear you. I'm really sorry, but I have to prioritize my daughter, which sucks. And it might be a gap on his resume that he needs to explain. But he has the perfect explanation. My daughter needed me. I mean, who's not going to understand that? Yeah, not just understand it, but maybe even like him more for that because it humanizes him. I agree. The only unusual thing that jumped out at me was when he said that at first his daughter was excited to move, but she was worried about how her mom would react.

36:00Her less than involved mom at that. And then later she decided that she wanted to stay. Okay. So I might be hypersensitive to this detail because of question one today, but I'm a little worried about whether his daughter is deciding to stay to make her mom happy or to avoid making her mom mad rather than choosing to live with the parents she really wants to be with. Now, look, she's 16 years old. It can be so hard at that age to tell your own mother, sorry, I'm moving with dad to another state. Also, that's a huge move for anybody. I can understand wanting to stay in the same school with the same friends.

36:33I get it. And maybe she genuinely loves her mom, probably does. And maybe her mom is great, even if she's not the most present parent. I'm not saying this woman is a villain or anything, but since this whole problem got created when the daughter changed her mind and one way to solve it would be for the daughter to move with our friend here, I do think it's worth considering whether she made the right decision for the right reasons and not because, you know, her mom is in her head or she's afraid to be honest with her. That's a good point. I could see that going either way. He did say you're safe to make the decision that's right for you.

37:05So maybe she really did. But if he's about to lose an amazing opportunity because his daughter feels beholden to her mother, especially when her mother isn't as involved in her life as he is, that would be a shame. It would. But then again, moving across the country at 16 years old or moving a few states over even, starting over like that is a big deal. And I would completely understand if she really didn't want to do that, her mom aside. Yeah, also true. So I say take the job, knock it out of the park, then ask for more flexibility. And if they won't accommodate you, I would then pitch some creative solutions.

37:36Maybe you fly out once or twice a month. Maybe you put in some FaceTime or you stay out there for a week each month somehow, I don't know, or you end up moving and use the extra 60K a year to fly back regularly to see your daughter. also not a bad plan B. Also totally doable given that it's only two states over. It's not across the country or across the ocean. I mean, it's probably a two hour flight. Totally. Yeah, it's not a big deal. You could book it the day before. It's probably going to be like 200 bucks. Congrats on landing this amazing offer, man. I'm super pumped for you, but I'm even more pumped by the kind of dad that you seem to be.

38:09So good luck and congrats on the promotion. You can reach us Friday at JordanHarbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line And that does make our job a whole lot easier. If your shrink tried to hit on you, your vice principal is asking for your girlfriend's nudes, or you're wondering whether to come clean to your partner about all your affairs after going through a series of crises, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabriel.

38:38Ever since I was young, networking and building relationships has made me uncomfortable, and I've always felt like I was inconveniencing people by contacting them. Huh, interesting. I've met a lot of people over the years who struggle with the exact same thing. I believe this stems from growing up with a sister who was, to put it nicely, a handful. She and my mother would get into screaming matches over stupid things like my sister not liking what she got for Christmas, or my mom asking my sister to spray paint her school project in the garage and not in the house. That spray paint argument got so bad that my sister ran after my mother with scissors.

39:15I remember not being able to sleep that night because I was so worried about what my sister might do to her. The stress in the house was so intense because we never knew if my sister was going to be chill or go off the deep end. When she eventually moved away, things seemed to get better just by her not being there, and my family never talked about any of these issues. I tried to maintain a relationship with my sister, but she would move between being really cool and bringing up things from the past she was mad at me for. For example, she would constantly bring up the fact that I wasn't able to be her maid of honor because I had been accepted into the police academy during the wedding planning phase.

39:51The 16-month program was only offered twice a year. It required me to stay overnight without access to internet and limited access to the phone, and I was hired by my agency before my sister announced her wedding plans. I was still a bridesmaid in the wedding, but after the wedding, she told me I should have turned down the academy offer. She's also gotten angry about me not helping her take care of her kids enough. Going out with a friend one night while I was visiting her, even though she and her whole family were sick in bed, and moving out of my home state six years ago because she thought it was selfish of me.

40:23Wow. Okay, again, we only have your side of things to go on here, but these facts are pretty stark. It sounds to me like your sister is ridiculously self-absorbed, quite petty, fairly unstable. She's hot and cold. She's unpredictable. She pops off at random moments, and she doesn't seem very understanding of your goals, your needs. It's just a tough sibling to have. I mean, maybe there's another version, another side to these little anecdotes you shared about getting mad at your sibling for moving out of the state to pursue her own life because it's not close to you anymore. I mean, I think that kind of tells you everything you need to know.

40:58Looney tunes. Now, the only time she'll communicate with me is by posting a comment to my social media to criticize me for a choice I made. I have since blocked her. Well, that's unfortunate. But yeah, if your sister is picking fights with you in your Facebook comments publicly in front of all your friends about stuff she doesn't approve it that might be the right move insane she goes on because my sister was always so volatile I tried my best to not create waves with my parents I didn't bring up any problems I was having and I handled them on my own because I didn't want to add to their stress load they had enough to deal with already with her as a result I think that caused me to do the same with other people in my life.

41:39Yeah, bingo. For example, if I've had to reschedule with people because life got busy and I repeatedly attempted to make plans with them, eventually I would just stop trying because I didn't want to inconvenience them by adding more to their to-do list. Oh man, that's sad. Yeah, that is sad. It's a sad thing to hear. You feel like you're an item on their to-do list. This childhood definitely did a number on you. And yeah, we got to talk about that. We'll get into it. She goes on, I have two friends I always get together with when I go home, but since I've moved, I don't feel like I've made any close friends.

42:13When I do attempt to get together with people who could be good friends, we always end up rescheduling over and over, and then I just give up trying after a while. Recently, I started making more of an effort to keep in touch with past co-workers and friends, only to have plans cancelled and later find that they've been in contact with each other. I feel forgotten, and it hurts. what am I doing wrong? How do I work on this? Signed, a conflicted connector fighting the specter of being a master deflector, which she learned from her early protectors when all she wants is for people not to neglect her.

42:48Okay, I don't want to comment on that one. But I'm starting to warm up. There's a comment forming in the nebula of the back of my brain here. All right. Another great question. And I love how clearly you see your childhood, this difficult dynamic with your sister, your parents, the ways in which you denied your own needs in order to make things easier on them, and how all of this is affecting your relationships now. You're halfway to solving this just by having a good grasp of the roots of this pattern. So first of all, I'm really sorry that you grew up having this tumultuous relationship with your sister.

43:23And my heart goes out to her too, because it sounds quite stressful to be your sister. So she obviously has some unresolved stuff herself and possibly some personality issues. And I would imagine that just must make all of her relationships very chaotic. Everything you described, everything makes perfect sense. You already know this, but let's just take a moment to appreciate that the way you became the good child, the easy child, was by keeping your needs super minimal, solving as many problems as you could on your own, keeping things on an even keel with your parents, because your sister was like a fly in the ointment, to say the least.

43:58You did this so you could spare them your inconvenient feelings, and I say inconvenient, of course, in air quotes, so that you could secure their love and protection. All children do this to some degree, but some have to do it a lot more in certain families, especially ones where there's an extremely difficult and chaotic person in the house who takes up a lot of psychological space. You know what this reminds me of? Gabe, did you ever see Breaking Bad? Of course, yeah. Remember when Jesse goes home to his parents and he's got the little brother there? Oh, yeah. What was the deal with him again?

44:27I don't remember. Is he like a good kid and really accomplished? Yeah, he was great. And he was like this good boy. And then later Jesse gets kicked out of the house because they find a joint in a plant or something. Right. And of course, it turns out to be the little brother's joint. And Jesse just takes the fall for it. But they're having this conversation and the little brother's like, what do you mean? All mom and dad ever talk about is you. Because he's like, mom and dad don't love me. I'm the screw up. Right. And he's like, what are you talking about? All they ever talk about is you. And this kid clearly had like sort of formed his whole life around being the good boy because they only talk about how screwed up Jesse was.

45:00That's what this kind of reminds me of. In a different way. In a different way. Yeah. Just as far as how people restructure their lives around the other sibling to keep the balance in the house. Look, the thing is, it wasn't your job to spare your parents your feelings. And there was nothing inconvenient about them. children are supposed to be able to rely on their parents to hold their tension, their anxiety, their excitement, their frustration, even their anger at their siblings. Now, I don't know about your parents. Maybe they could have been there for you in that way. Maybe they weren't. But either way, you intuited their needs and then you sacrificed your own.

45:36And when a child cuts off parts of themselves and then shape shifts to make mom and dad comfortable, they usually learn to do that with other family members. And then they do it with their teachers and they do it with their friends. They do it with their colleagues and then their partners and even random new people that they meet at the police academy or whatever. And they shut down aspects of their personality that feel intolerable or dangerous and sometimes even shameful because they were never validated and cared for. And that's basically how this whole template you're describing gets created.

46:08Again, it's very common and something that all adults have to resolve to some degree, it's just more of a thing for you. So here's what I do. First of all, your practice right now, both in your networking and in your life generally, is to start leaning into the experience of quote-unquote inconveniencing people. And by that, I want you to start playing with the idea of pushing for what you want, pinning people down, expressing your needs and desires a little bit more, and gently speaking up when you're not happy with a certain result. So let's say you're trying to reschedule with one of these prospective friends.

46:40Maybe you send that third text where you say, sorry, I know we keep rescheduling. Life is crazy, but I'm still actually really excited to get to know you talk about work. Let's make this happen. Or, hey, look, I know this might seem weirdly persistent, but I'm really excited to chat. I know we have a ton to talk about. You want to grab a coffee next week or whatever it is. I want you to do this for two reasons. First, being direct and vulnerable like that is generally very effective. And I think people, certainly the people you want to be building relationships with, they're going to respond pretty well to that.

47:10And if they don't, my feeling is they're not your people. And when you get some positive responses, that'll help you rewrite this fear that you're somehow an inconvenience because you'll have more data and that data will show you that the response you fear is not always the response you're going to get. My hope is that people respond in a new way to you being, again, quote unquote, inconvenient. You'll find that it's just being secure and honest and appropriately ambitious, that what you're afraid to be in touch with is just your healthy and legitimate needs and interests. Second, and more importantly, I want you to do this so you can find out what that whole inconvenient feeling is all about.

47:46You've worked so hard to avoid it for so long that it probably feels extremely vulnerable slash scary for you to push for what you want at all, to speak up when you're unhappy. But again, what you perceive as too much, that's probably just right. It might not even be enough in some cases. I also want you to have the chance to feel what it's like to want something and express it to somebody else, even if it's something as simple as an invitation to coffee and find out that that vulnerability, it's totally survivable. Yes, not just survivable, but enlivening and necessary. I mean, you know, being in touch with these needs and acting on them, that is how we accomplish things and connect with people and grow as human beings.

48:27I also wonder whether this other thing you're noticing that you end up rescheduling with people over and over and then you just give up after a while. I wonder whether that might also be informed by the whole, you know, I don't want to be a burden to people thing. And I'm going to reach here, but let's just play with this idea for a second and see if there's anything to it. I wonder, Jordan, if certain people are picking up on this quality in her from the very beginning of their relationship, and that's unconsciously informing how they treat her. So for example, let's say you meet a new person, you're interested in being friends with them, you say something like, hey, I'd love to grab a drink sometime.

48:59But you know, if you're super busy, or you already have a ton of friends, no worries. I get it. I'm super low maintenance, you know, something like that. Or even if you don't actually say those words, but that idea creeps into your body language, your tone of voice, the way you text with people, how often you text them, they might get the subtle message that you are not somebody they should prioritize because on some level you might not feel that you're someone they should prioritize. Oh, 100%. That is one of many ways that we often create the very outcome that we fear the most, even when we're trying very hard to avoid it.

49:34I used to see this all the time with my old coaching clients back in the day. This is the sort of thing that happens when unconscious material remains unconscious. We're not aware of it, so we don't know what's operating. So we also then don't realize how these templates are shaping our outcomes. Now, I don't know if that's the only reason that these plans are getting canceled. There might be other reasons. Maybe you're trying to rekindle friendships with people who are just, frankly kind of lame and flaky and disrespectful, which would be a really also, by the way, a really interesting thing to notice.

50:03And potentially also part of this pattern too, right? If she's focusing her energy on people who aren't the most consistent or engaged or attuned to her, maybe that mimics her childhood too. Yeah, that's a really good point. And also, maybe you're approaching these friendships with a lot of expectations, or these people are interested in a different kind of relationship, like one that's kind of flaky and not that consistent, which is fine, but that might just mean that they are not your people. That's my feeling when it comes to people like this. Now, here's what's really important. I hear you when you say that you feel forgotten and it hurts when these people bail on plans.

50:36And then you hear two weeks later, they were hanging out with each other. That's a real feeling. And I imagine that it's also an old feeling for you and I totally get it. And it's really interesting. That one detail, in addition to the whole story of your childhood, that really bonded me to you. Well, yeah, me too. It's almost like when she takes a chance and opens up about how she really feels. She lets people in, right? Yeah, she lets people in and she gives them something to attach to, something to relate to. And that's precisely what we're talking about, right? Getting more vulnerable, being more in touch with the parts of her that haven't always been available to other people.

51:11It's also just occurring to me that working as a police officer is a really interesting career to pick for somebody who is very good at suppressing her own needs and very good at reading other people's needs. And also somebody who's just probably like in general, very mature and controlled and often in charge. I don't want to psychoanalyze her too much. I know that's kind of annoying, but I think it can be helpful sometimes to appreciate how our jobs often fulfill us in ways that we aren't fulfilled elsewhere. or maybe like in this case, protect us from having experiences we don't want to have elsewhere.

51:43Yeah, good point. I bet she's a great cop. But yeah, cops, maybe not always known for being super vulnerable and feelingsy, are they? I don't know. Not on the job anyway, but also off the clock too. And also that's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it might be a superpower in your job, but in your personal life, yeah, it's probably an obstacle to being fully available to other people. And that might also be playing a role in how these interactions are going. Anyway, look, I know that this might be a lot to do on your own. So if you're not there already, I would also really encourage you to consider exploring this topic in therapy.

52:15I was wondering who was going to bring up therapy first in this episode. I know it ain't a feedback Friday if it doesn't include at least one mention of therapy. Yeah. But look, with a professional, obviously you would have the chance to unpack this childhood, which was very meaningful. This complicated relationship with your sister, which sounds like an ongoing challenge. And again, how all of it is shaping your relationships now. But what I'm actually really excited about you going to therapy for is if you went to therapy, you would get to have a relationship and you would get to have a space where it gets to be all about you and where you can show up to session angry or sad or inspired or needy, literally anything, and have your therapist receive those feelings and be in them with you.

52:57That is so powerful. And it's precisely the opposite of how it was in your family growing up. You know, one of the main benefits of that therapeutic relationship is that you can learn a new kind of relating. And that's often how you rewrite these old patterns. So yeah, I would just love for you to have that experience. And so would I. But look, let's also take stock of the great news here. You have close friends back home. You make a point to visit them. Two close friends as an adult actually is quite a gift. And there are great relationships waiting for you out there. And the fact that you want those friendships, that you're willing to resolve this childhood stuff so you can show up differently in your relationships, that's an amazing sign.

53:34That means you're ready. So give this a go. Treat it like a little experiment. Find out what happens when you risk being inconvenient or too much or whatever. You don't have to be a monster. You just have to be like 10 % more proactive, 10 % needier. See what you get back. It's gonna be great. Good luck. You know who won't try to murder you with scissors, Gabriel? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

54:08All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Or like I said, you can email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. If you're super lazy, I'll dig up the code for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. There's a doctor and neuroscientist named Carl Hart. who's a professor of psychology at Columbia University and has some very unconventional beliefs on recreational drug use. He's done tons of media, given talks at big conferences, and gone on podcasts like Joe Rogan where he claims that drugs, specifically heroin, crack cocaine, and crystal meth, are actually not that dangerous.

54:52He claims that when used responsibly, these drugs can enhance a person's life in a variety of ways, such as helping married couples become closer. The claim that stuck out to me the most, though, is that heroin withdrawal is largely overblown by the media and that it's more similar to the common cold. Having heard these beliefs, I felt it would be a good idea to try snorting heroin, which Dr. Hart claims he does on occasion with no negative effects. I figured it must have been an amazing feeling to make my mom, who was a heroin addict herself and died of an overdose six years ago, completely ignore my dad and me in search of it.

55:30But guess what? It doesn't feel that great. People say things like, it feels like a kiss from Jesus. No, it just feels mildly pleasurable. Well, I'm now a heroin addict, just like my mother was. It's been nine months since I first tried it, and I've lost my job, and I'm in the grip of addiction. I've tried to quit, and I can tell you that the withdrawal is the absolute worst physical and mental experience I have ever gone through. It feels like the worst flu you've ever had, combined with panic attacks, constant full body shaking, and the feeling that you can't move out of the fetal position. This was definitely my fault, as I had convinced myself that the reason my mother's drug use was so severe was that she used via IV, and Dr.

56:14Hart says the key is to snort it instead. I know, I'm an idiot for believing that. But if someone like me could be persuaded to try a drug by this doctor at Columbia University, I'm sure many other young people could as well. I'm an advanced mechanical engineer, so I'm not intellectually weak, and I grew up seeing the horrors of heroin and crack use. I should be the last person to be convinced by these claims. I am so deeply ashamed by this. The good news is that I'm in outpatient treatment, and I am on my way to sobriety. I really hope that my message can be shared so that other people don't think it's easy to quit, like Dr.

56:50Hart claims. Signed, finding my way back home after taking some H to the dome. Oh, wow. That is a wild story. Have you heard of this guy, Jordan? I have. Yeah, I was going to say something other than wild. But yeah, I have heard of this guy. And I actually read the book or one of his books. I don't know if he has multiple a while back. And it wasn't that I didn't believe him, although all of my anecdotal experience looking at other people getting off drugs and using drugs didn't match with what he was saying, I thought, okay, he's the expert. But I didn't love the message. You know, it didn't seem like the idea that you can just snort heroin casually and do a bunch of cocaine all the time was a good thing to be using my platform for.

57:34Like some people thought like, oh, you have this plastics guy on there. That's bad. He had this, you know, anti-Hamas or pro-Hamas guy on there. That was bad. Imagine a guy who's saying, hey, just go and snort heroin. I mean, there are kids and young adults listening to this who I thought, you know, somebody might decide to try drugs. And then something like this exact scenario that we're reading about in this letter might happen, except it'll be my fault for broadcasting this. Yeah. Well, it literally happened. I am so sorry that you lost your mom to heroin. That must be so painful. And then that you went through this addiction yourself, which is just so incredibly tragic and bizarre.

58:10But I mean, I have to say, Jordan, I really admire his self-awareness, his accountability. He sounds very impressive. And this was not an easy thing to beat. And we don't know what his story is or what's in his family. But if his mother was an addict, you know, maybe he has the gene for it. And maybe he's predisposed to being extra, you know, just predisposed to addiction, really. And maybe doing heroin a handful of times is all he needed to tap into that predisposition. But I am thrilled to hear that you got treatment and that you are sober now. I think that is amazing. Yeah, this kind of thing is tragic.

58:39But you know, there's an element of, oh, it must be so amazing if my mom ignored my dad and me as a child to go get heroin. Like, this must be epic. And if I can just snort it and get the benefits and I won't have all the drawbacks, let me go try it. So it's incredibly irresponsible of this guy, even if he's sort of statistically, let's say he's statistically right, which I don't necessarily believe. It's kind of like saying, hey, normally you can give kids loaded guns and they won't kill anyone or hurt themselves with it. Maybe that's true. Doesn't make it a good idea. Yeah, I just don't see this going well for most people.

59:12It's interesting. So I had never heard of Dr. Hart before this letter, but I did do some reading about him online and I have not read his book. So I'm not an expert in what he says, but he does seem to make some very fair policy points about the criminalization of drugs and the criminalization of certain kinds of drugs over others and just the failure of the war on drugs in general. except he points out that the real benefit seems to have been to beef up prison budgets and policing budgets and to target certain segments of the population. And I think he's probably making some very fair points about that.

59:40But yes, his most famous claim is that the recreational use of these drugs is cool and super helpful if you do it the right way, quote unquote. That does seem controversial, potentially super dangerous. And I thought it was interesting. There was a New York Times review of his book. And in the review, the writer wrote Hart's argument that we need to drastically revise our current view of illegal drugs is both powerful and timely, but the question of addiction lingers in the background. It is not one he attempts to resolve. In fact, he declares that his book is quote unquote, unapologetically not about addiction.

1:00:12And so when you hear a story like this, you think, okay, I think there's just a huge swath of this debate that he is sidestepping. Yeah, this is kind of the problem that I had. And that's very clear 2020 hindsight with one of the plastics episodes we did recently, which was we talked about carbon footprint of replacing plastic things with metal or whatever. And we're like, plastic's the greenest thing. But then it was like, what about the trash problem? And it was, oh, you know, people litter. We can solve that with regulation. Let's move along. And it's like, no, we still have a trash problem.

1:00:42And it's like, can you talk at all about drugs and drug policy without talking about addiction? Can you talk about manufacturing things out of plastic and not talk about trash? Can you talk about green energy and not talk about the manufacturing cost of making solar panels or digging battery materials out of the ground in the Congo using child slave labor. You can't. Right. You shouldn't. Yeah. You can't do it. How do you decide what to leave in and out of your argument because it's inconvenient or whatever? Right. I mean, look, I think what is clear is that experimenting with drugs like heroin, even a little bit, even if you just snort it, is extremely risky, obviously.

1:01:17And it's especially risky for somebody who's predisposed to addiction. So even if Dr. Hart is right, that some people can sometimes maybe enjoy certain drugs safely without becoming addicted. And he might be assuming, by the way, that everyone is like him. Although who's to say that he isn't addicted? I don't know. He could be in some way or hasn't been addicted in the past. I don't know. I don't know this guy. I don't know his history with drugs, but I can't quite myself get on board with this message that easily because yes, it's dangerous and reckless. And I'm pretty sure that you can get through life quite well without casually snorting heroin to cope with, say, an anxiety disorder, which I think is what Dr.

1:01:50Hart says that he uses it for. So I wouldn't beat yourself up too much for that. But I do understand why you feel kind of ashamed. And I'm sorry that you feel that way. But I have to say, you are doing such a beautiful thing with that shame and that regret that you have, which is writing into us and wanting to share this story with other people. I mean, what a brilliant way to turn your experience into something very different and very meaningful. And we're happy to share it. I agree. I think it's a powerful story. It's sad. But yeah, you're not just sort of sitting there feeling sorry for yourself.

1:02:21You did something about it. This guy sounds awesome. Incredible. Anybody who gets off heroin, kind of a superhero, because you're not supposed to be able to do that, right? I mean, that's a tricky thing to do. I agree. So anyway, it's next level stuff. I'm so happy you made it through this addiction okay and that you avoided what happened to your mom. Sending you a big hug. Keep up the incredible work, man. And thank you again for sharing that with us. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I work in IT at a large company and I've wanted to attain a leadership position for some time. Watching so many others around me rise up, including my brother, while I've ground away in my job has been a Sisyphean task, to say the least.

1:02:59Nice. Earlier this year, my boss told me that he was opening a leadership role in an adjacent area to mine and encouraged me to apply. The role felt like it was made for me. I made it past the first round and they scheduled a grueling series of interviews. So I worked my ass off to prepare. It cut into my personal and family life, but I knew that this opportunity wouldn't come along again anytime soon. In some of the interviews, I did really well and the answers came easily. Others were a bit more challenging. When it got to the final presentation, I was surprised to see that half the panel wasn't even in attendance.

1:03:33The other half seemed disinterested and barely asked any questions. At the end, I knew something was wrong. I sent personal thank you notes that night to each of my interviewers and hoped for the best. The next morning, the recruiter told me that I had not passed the interviews and that the process had ended for me. I was crushed and to some degree, I'm still devastated. I definitely could have used the money, but if I'm being honest, a major part of it was to prove once and for all to myself and others that I really am at a higher level than people think. I'm sick of watching so many others around me rise while I continue to languish in the middle ranks.

1:04:10But I'm mostly upset with the way that they just threw me out without even so much as a personal message. Not one of them responded to my thank you notes with a quick nice to have met you. They literally ceased all communication with me. Now I feel like a failure and my morale is drained. Maybe it's time to apply for senior roles at startups or big tech. but I also have a huge parallel desire in the arts, writing, drawing, and photography. I'm considering going heads down on my manuscript and taking it to this writing festival next year to see if anyone is interested in it. How should I heal this emotional wound?

1:04:44What should I do? Signed, spurned, burned, and wondering if I should turn to another way to earn. Man, what an interesting letter. Thank you for being so vulnerable with us. I can absolutely understand why you feel so disillusioned and devastated right now. Yeah. You were genuinely pumped about this opportunity. Then you worked your ass off, got all prepped, and for reasons that are not entirely clear, just didn't go your way. And I think anyone in your shoes would feel really bummed. I'm bummed for you, man. I'm sorry this happened. It sucks. But here's the thing. Your anger and disappointment, they're healthy.

1:05:18They're valid. They're appropriate. You saw an opportunity. You had a shot at landing it. You got invested, as you should. That investment only grew the harder you worked. And when it didn't go your way, it was a huge blow. What could be more normal than that, right? This is so much of life, chasing after things, getting our hopes up, risking the possibility of being disappointed and hurt and taking that risk, being vulnerable in that way. It's essential. From dating to business, this uncomfortable feeling you have now, it's just the price you pay for pouring yourself into this dream, for putting yourself out there.

1:05:49If you didn't want to feel any of this, you could have sat this one out, let the promotion pass you by. could have stayed safe, which by the way is what so many people do, whether they realize it or not. And to return to that theme from question three, that's how a lot of people create the very outcome they say they don't want. They're just not willing to be as vulnerable as you were by chasing their goals. So they just never get to build the life they really want. But you didn't do that. You swung for the frickin fences. And I'm very proud of you for that. So this is not a total loss. In my view, the true loss would have been just not going for it at all.

1:06:20Well said. Now, that said, I have a few thoughts about how this all went down. First off, the way these higher-ups treated you during the final presentation, how they went cold, didn't even hit you back with the simple, thanks for presenting today, good luck, or sorry this didn't go your way, but nice work. That just objectively sucks. Honestly, these people sound lame and disrespectful. They just don't care. They're totally checked out. On the other hand, it's possible that these folks couldn't engage with you as a candidate while they were making their decision. Maybe that's fair. Maybe there's a rule or some policy there, something to consider.

1:06:52Now, the fact that half the panel wasn't even in attendance and the other half seemed disengaged, I'm definitely connecting up some dots here. I could be wrong, but it sure as hell sounds to me like they'd already made their decision and just had to go through the motions of hearing your presentation. Like, we already hired the guy that we've been friends with for 10 years. Who are the other people whose time we wasted? Oh, one of these guys? All right, you go to the first one. We'll go to the second one, and then we'll all go out to lunch. And again, that totally sucks. It would have been way more respectful to cancel and not make you jump through the last hoop and stay up all night finalizing your PowerPoint or whatever than to carry on with this bullshit charade, if that's actually what happened.

1:07:28But if that's true, what felt so personal might have just been the way the cookie crumbled. It wasn't even about you. It was about them not wanting to lose an hour or two when it wasn't necessary at all. You were the only guy who didn't get the memo. I still think it's crappy they didn't respond to your thank you notes, though. I've been in the very same situation and I know it stings when people don't meet you in the same spirit Or set you up to fail So there are a few explanations here and it's largely up to you to decide what you want to take away from this It sounds to me like you're beating yourself up quite a bit.

1:08:00You feel like a failure your morale is drained Hey, I get it But i'm also not so sure that that's the only takeaway you can have from this experience Because look just because you failed to get this promotion doesn't mean you're a failure year. It's really important to notice how those two concepts get linked. You can feel the wound of not succeeding in one way without telling yourself a whole big story about your value as an employee, how your company feels about you, what the rest of your career is going to look like as a result of me. Talk about catastrophizing. Yes, I completely agree. Also, you don't know how this failed promotion bid is going to serve you somehow down the road.

1:08:36That's where you're in the process of finding out right now. You know, you don't know if a better role is going to open up been six months and those same people who didn't think you were right for the other one or who had already given it to somebody else, they might turn around and go, oh, he's our guy. He's ready now. Or you sit with this for a couple of months and you decide, you know what? These people do kind of suck. You know, they're not respectful. They're not supportive of me. Maybe this is my sign that it's time to find a place that does value me. And this huge disappointment inspires you to start interviewing and boom, fast forward a year and you're working in a job you love even more at Facebook or whatever.

1:09:08You just don't know. Exactly. It's like what we talked about on our end of year episode, right? These setbacks, they're almost always blessings in disguise. Right. But what makes them blessings is what we take away from them, how we respond to them. Yes. And if your only takeaway from this is I'm a failure and no one here supports me, and I guess I'm doomed to be stuck at this level forever, then your possibilities are going to be a lot more limited. But if you open yourself up to some new meanings, if you look at this and you go, huh okay some of these people are not as pumped about me as I would like but I am proud of myself for going after what I want and now I know that I have that fire in me and also I'm kind of bored here anyway so maybe I should start talking to some people at other companies maybe I should tell them this story and see if there are any people in my court who can maybe help me out or pass my resume along I mean you can see how that is going to lead to very different outcomes but there's another thing happening here Jordan that we have to talk about which is how much he had riding on this promotion.

1:10:05It wasn't just the money. It wasn't just the title. It was this desire he had to prove once and for all to himself and to others that he really is at a higher level than people think. Yeah. He said he's sick of watching everyone else around him rise up while he languishes, including his brother. Right. So interesting. To your point a moment ago, I mean, it's really hard to chase a big goal without getting emotionally attached to the result. I I mean, how can you not? You apply for a new role. You prep really hard. You go through round after round. Of course, you're going to start imagining your new paycheck and you start fantasizing about how people will treat you.

1:10:41And you also start fantasizing about how you'll feel about yourself. That fantasy is part of the ambition. It's part of desire and it's healthy to some degree, but it's also really important to catch yourself doing that and to stay grounded and also just to appreciate how much you have writing on a certain outcome. because I think what is so devastating about this setback is that you had your whole sense of self riding on the outcome, your confidence, your value as a person, your position in your family, potentially all of that was on the line here. So when it didn't go your way, it wasn't just not getting the money or the title or the cred.

1:11:15It was not getting yourself the version of yourself you desperately want to be, which is just so interesting because this thing you shared at the top of the episode today, Jordan, was the best version of yourself is the version that's looking for a new version or some version of that, some version of that version, some version of that version or some version thereof. And there's nothing wrong with that version or wanting to become that person. I think it's wonderful, but your mistake was placing so many profound expectations on this one specific opportunity and kind of pinning all of your hopes for becoming that guy on whether these people approved of you.

1:11:51So when you say that you're devastated and that their indifference to you really hurt and that you're angry and your morale is drained. All of that makes so much sense to me. But underneath that, I do wonder if there's a great deal of shame and that shame might just be the embarrassment of not getting what you wanted this time. You know, kind of like, Oh, I feel, I feel silly. I feel exposed. I feel kind of like rejected. Maybe I'm dumb for thinking I could do this, or it might be the shame of being rejected by people that you respected or people you now resent respecting. Or it might just be the shame of being in touch with this very real longing you have to rise up and to prove that you can achieve at a higher level than people think.

1:12:33And since you didn't get the win this time, you're left with the residual feeling of being, you know, I feel kind of silly. I shouldn't have thought that I had a shot, which by the way, you had to believe that in order to do your best work. So while you lick your wounds and you plan your next move, I would also make some space to explore this possible shame piece and also this expectations thing. Why does rising up actually matter so much to you? You know, what are you really hoping to prove by climbing the ranks? Also, why do other people's opinions matter so much? And whose opinions are these actually?

1:13:07Are you looking to your company to validate certain parts of you that are not maybe being validated by yourself or in other parts of your life? Honestly, maybe most importantly, how far back do these feelings go? You know, have you felt this way before when you chased your goals in the past? How did these feelings get created? I think those questions will take you to some really important insights. And in a weird way, answering them right now might be why this promotion had to go the way it did. Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Gabe. Sifting through this stuff after a failure, that's another way of finding the blessing in disguise.

1:13:39And I bet that'll prepare him to chase the next promotion or some job interviews in a whole new way. As for your creative projects, the book you've been writing, I think it's awesome. Hey, I fully support you having meaningful pursuits outside of work. And if you want to be a writer, more power to you. I just wouldn't make the same mistake Gabe was just alluding to by pinning all your hopes for happiness and fulfillment on getting a book deal. Because A, well, that's not how life works. And B, now you're talking about a field that is far more unpredictable, unfair, and unfeeling than IT. When I was a lawyer and I went to do a radio show and the podcast, people were kind of like, wait a minute, you could either just stay here doing what people tell us to do and you're going to move up like this, or you can just take this other job with just no obvious path for upward mobility.

1:14:28Totally unpredictable. Usually like 99 % of the people in it are just broke and never go anywhere in the top 1 % rise. Like, why would you trade all this certainty for all this uncertainty for no reason? That's where my mind went when you shared that, at least in corporate life, as maddening as corporate life can be, there's some logic, there's some coherence, but in the arts, uh. Yeah, it's pure chaos. It is. Nothing makes sense. You can write Harry frickin' Potter and 80 publishers are like, it's too zany. There's too many, too many words. Too many wands for my taste. Yeah, too many wands. Too many wands and words for that matter.

1:15:02So keep writing and drawing and taking pictures if you love doing it. And yeah, look, put yourself out there at this festival if you're passionate about it. But again, don't place too many expectations on that outcome. Do it because it's meaningful to you. Treat it like a process. As for the lingering emotional wound, that's going to heal as you make new meaning out of the setback, as you start to take some next steps. And time always helps too. But here's what I know. That wound, honestly, it's a great sign. It means you had something on the line here. If you don't feel that way somewhat regularly, you're probably not living life to the fullest.

1:15:33So be proud of yourself for that. Keep on keeping on. You're exactly where you're supposed to be.

1:15:42Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in. Thank you so much for everybody who wrote in and all those who listened for that matter. Go back and check out Zach Wienersmith if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's not going to make you or the people you talk to look or feel bad. It's over on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

1:16:08These drills, they take a few minutes a day. That's it. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20, 30 years ago. Well, maybe not 30. I'm 42, for God's sake. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Again, 6minutenetworking.com. Also, there's a subreddit for our show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes. I've never promoted it on the show, but there's a decent little small community in there talking sometimes. So if you're on Reddit, go ahead and join the Jordan Harbinger Show subreddit. I don't moderate it, so it could go to shit.

1:16:36There's nothing I can do about it. But if there's an episode you really liked, an episode you really didn't like, or you want to share some additional thoughts or learn more from other people in our show fam, definitely check it out. Some cool conversations happening over there from time to time. Reddit.com slash r slash Jordan Harbinger. And if you're on Reddit, you know how to find that kind of thing. And I'd be remiss if I didn't promote our newsletter at JordanHarbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at JordanHarbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, deals, ways to support the show.

1:17:03Also on the website at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

1:17:35If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show, about a guy who went from Nigerian royalty to the rugged streets of the Bronx. Remy Adeleke's life was thrown into chaos after a corrupt government stripped his family of their legacy. Dive deep into his captivating journey from being surrounded by drugs and drive-bys to his inspiring pursuit to become a U.S.

1:18:06Navy SEAL, even though he didn't know how to swim. But that's not all. Remy's fight is far from over as he confronts the dark underworld of human trafficking and illegal organ harvesting. There's a saying in Nigeria, every day is for the thief. Corruption was my dad's demise. They knew that my father would not stop fighting them. They killed my dad. I went from riches and wealth to the Bronx, man, and it was really, really rough. Once you make the decision to join the Navy, in my opinion, you're giving up any fear of death. One day I got approached by another human trafficking nonprofit that actually employed former SEALs and former agency guys to go to other countries to rescue kids trapped in sex trafficking, but specifically kids who are being purchased by Americans.

1:18:51When I got down there, my eyes would just open fully, and I just remember being appalled. The parents would sell their daughters to traffickers in the North. I just remember being disgusted. It's such a global issue. The human trafficking is a blanket term. Under human trafficking, you have sex trafficking, you have organ harvesting, you have forced marriage, you have forced labor. I made the film in order to be able to expose more people to this atrocity of organ harvesting. But the perception of these traffickers is that they're these scraggly, evil-looking, uneducated, you know, on-the-corner type people.

1:19:33And the reality is the majority of people involved on the organ harvesting side of things are highly educated, learned people. The truth needs to get out there. To uncover what drives the man who refuses to be defeated, check out episode 868 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Thank you.