954: Dr. Ramani | Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People

22:12That's what's probably not going to happen. So if you're going to turn this into some sort of parlor trick of, oh, come on now, show me that this can never happen. It's not about the never of it all. It's that you're not going to be the reason it changes. And Jordan, I'm sure there's people listening. You may have had this experience. I certainly have had this experience where there were narcissistic people in my life that I don't interact with. And I still hear about them here and there. Nothing's changed. And I've had nothing to do with them for over a decade and nothing has changed. There's people in my life where I suspect that they have something like this and other friends, mutual friends will go, all right, so how long until so-and-so blows up his marriage?

22:48And I'm like, oh, who knows? And then sure enough, five years later, it's, oh, they got divorced. Well, I can't say I'm too surprised. Oh, they're back together. They're divorced again. It's okay. He cheated those business partners too. Some things never change. And you just have to wait for the other shoe to drop with these people at the time. Absolutely. And I think no empathic, decent human beings don't want to walk around the world assuming the worst of everyone. It's not a nice way to go through life, especially if we know someone and certainly if we care about them. But the key to understanding narcissism is, listen, we're not going to get rid of all the narcissists in our lives.

23:23And most of us don't even wish ill will on them. We just want them to leave us the hell alone. And so then when you look at your narcissistic friend who's getting married, you're like, oh my gosh, they're going to blow this up in five years. And they blow it up in five years. Whereas, you know, it's coming. Like we also, there's a sort of a radical acceptance of, so we've seen the end of this movie. We know how this one goes. And so that's radical acceptance is we know this. And it doesn't necessarily mean we end all these relationships. Friendships are interesting, right? They can hurt us, but they often don't have the impact of like an intimate partner would or a parent or a family member we see regularly.

23:56Not in the same way. How do we separate narcissists from people who are merely self-absorbed or shallow or arrogant? where's the sort of line on a behavior that turns somebody into something diagnosable or treatable? So self-absorption and arrogance, while they're part of the narcissistic picture, are by themselves, not narcissism. And I use this analogy all the time. If someone showed up at my front door with an egg, I'd be like, thanks for the egg. I would not say thanks for the cake. They'd need to mix that with flour, sugar, baking soda, and all the other goodies and stick it in the oven. And then I'd say thanks for the cake, but the egg is part of the cake.

24:31And so when we get into sort of the strands of narcissism, if you will, the self-absorption, the arrogance, even the entitlement to a degree. If those things are freestanding, pretty rare to find an entitled person who's empathic, but it can happen. Sometimes you'll see it in very privileged, wealthy, feet don't touch the ground kind of people. Like they're just so used to things running exactly on their schedule that there can be an entitlement, but you talk to them a bit more and you're actually, there's a decent human being under there. It's been, again, they've been coddled to such a ridiculous degree.

25:03But by and large, these things you got to remember is where there's self-absorption and arrogance. There's also likely to be low empathy, entitlement, a need for admiration. These things tend to hang out together. But if for some reason you've pulled one strand, and let's not even use self-absorption because that's generally is associated with narcissism, but let's just call it selfishness. A person who really says, you know what, my time is my own. I love my work. Whenever I'm a writer, I have to write 12 hours a day. I need my environment to be a certain way. And as a result, I've made some decisions.

25:33I'm not going to get into an intimate relationship because I'm going to drive someone out of their mind with all my demands. And that's not a choice I'm going to make. I like my life the way it is. They've made this known. They're not drawing someone into the swamp, right? I like to write. I like to do my thing. I like to travel on my own. I like to live my life in my own way. It is selfishness if a person says, I'm only living a life that works for me. But I don't think it's narcissism. if it's not a company with all that other stuff. But person's like, this is how I like things. And I love having dinner with friends.

26:02Some people will have members of their family. I know someone who's a sibling like this, and they've said they are the best aunt you would ever know in your life. They are kind, they're generous. They take my kid on vacations, but when they're doing their thing, they're doing their thing. And that's that. And so there's a clarity and they've communicated that and they're not cruel to anyone. So that would be the strand of selfishness got pulled out without all the other sort of bells and whistles that make it narcissism. So we have to be careful if we meet someone, let's say you meet someone and they're very authoritative about what they know in a conversation and they're very da-da, da-da, da-da, and they almost seem imperious.

26:38It's easy to say after that meeting, that person's narcissistic, but then you run into them in the bathroom and they're super warm and nice and you're like, what the hell? And then you talk to them a little further at the group dinner and you're like, this is actually a really kind person. You recognize the way they show up in that particular setting is very specific. They're very warm. That cuts across other situations that can happen. It's not the norm though, Jordan. These things hang together.

27:06You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dr. Ramani Durvasula. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Strawberry.me. So I worked with a Strawberry.me coach recently. I ended that call feeling pretty reinvigorated. That's a good word for it. Way more aligned with where I'm headed and why. It's so easy to get caught up in the day-to-day grind, but that session reminded me just how powerful it is. Sometimes you just step back, refocus, get clear on where you actually want to go. Coaching is forward-looking. It's not about what's gone wrong. It's about where you want to be and how to actually get there.

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28:11Head to strawberry.me slash Jordan to get 50 % off your first week. That's strawberry.me slash Jordan. Stop settling. Start building the career you actually want. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the group of people that I know, like, and trust. And I am teaching you how to build your network for free over at 6minutenetworking.com. This is a relationship-building course. It is not a cringy, get-other-people-to-do-stuff-for-you course. It's not awkward. It's not cheesy. It's just practical stuff that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, a better peer.

28:47It takes six minutes a day. not even that if you're really up to speed, and many of the guests on our show already subscribe and contribute to that course. So hey, come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at sixminutenetworking.com. Now, back to Dr. Romani. I feel like you just described me, which is why I'm laughing, because my wife will go, you talked a lot during that phase, and then I'll see the person and their wife later. And I remember one guy's wife was like, I'm surprised because I didn't think I was going to like you after the first time we met.

29:19Oh, interesting. She's like, no offense though, because you're like, and I'm like, I'm not offended. I get that all the time. And it's on me because, I don't know, whatever that was at the time, let other people talk or whatever it was. This is years ago, but I just remember that interaction. And that's why I'm chuckling because I definitely have done that exact thing and had that exact experience. And so the episodes though, Jordan, I think it's like personality isn't about episodes. It's about a through line, right? So if the imperious person remained imperious in that interaction, there are people who will come across in front of an audience as the warmest, loveliest, healiest people in the world.

29:57But then you have a conversation on the side and they're monstrous. I had this happen once with someone who's considered one of the most beloved people. And I had a conversation. It was one of the most offensive experiences I had ever had. Then I asked, made a few sort of discrete inquiries. And they're like, oh, no, he's an absolutely terrible human being. And so this is somebody who's able to do that communal narcissistic performative, I'm the savior of the world, but is actually a terrible person. It takes us to an interesting corner of narcissism. I just use the term communal narcissism. Communal narcissistic people are people who get their supply, their validation, and their admiration by being perceived as being these do-gooders, save the world, aren't I wonderful?

30:36That's their source of it. And they actually get quite churlish and angry if they're not getting validated and being viewed as the savior of the world for doing all of that. But like I said, their audiences identify with them as saviors. And then I've even watched them dealing with audiences. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is terrible. They're so contemptuous. That is not an uncommon maneuver in those spaces. It's lovely when you meet the person who tracks. They're lovely in their space. And then you meet them in the side and they're lovely people. When that happens, you're like, bless the world that these kinds of people actually get ahead.

31:09I hear that. There's that phrase, never meet your heroes. And I'll never say I'm a lovely person, but the biggest compliment I get is when people go, you're like the same person you are on the podcast in real life. I'm like, thank you. Yes, faking things is hard. I'm a terrible actor. But at least they're not going, wow, I thought you would be like nicer or something. Yeah, that would hurt my feelings. You mentioned narcissistic supply. Let's talk about what this is. First of all, I'd never heard of this. But man, does it add clarity to how and why these people are the way they are. It's almost like they're oxygen.

31:39They need this or they'd shrivel up and die. least that's how they behave. It's exactly what it is. It is oxygen. Narcissistic supply. I always have the visual of this massive warehouse and trucks all going into it full and coming out empty. And that's what everyone around the narcissistic person feels like. A truck full of stuff that always leaves that warehouse of the narcissistic person empty. And so it's admiration, it's praise, it's validation, it's status, it's fame, it's money. It's all those things are considered supply. It's not just someone telling them they're great. Supply can also be being famous because now everyone, again, thinks you're the hero and you're the healer or whatever it is.

32:19So it can be any of those things. And so the narcissistic person will work steadfastly to ensure that the supply stream is steady. A person who has a lot of money can buy people around them, right? If you ever watch a rich person's household, there's always people going in and out. There's a hair person and a fixer person and a cleaning person and a yoga person and a get your energy clean person. Like they're always surrounded by people, but the people are on the payroll. And so there's this sense of community around them, but I'm like, oh, wow, all these people are being paid to be here. And so for that person, for a wealthy narcissistic person, getting supplies is actually very easy.

32:55But for other, like a less resourced narcissistic person, which is most of them, it's a lot trickier. Social media changed the game, Jordan. Social media changed the game. I'll always remember that day. I think I might even have said this in our last episode back in 2000, I think it was eight or so, seven, eight. Somebody said, hey, Ram, you need to look at this thing called Facebook. You'll find it curious. And I remember looking at it and I was already doing this work of studying narcissism and my stomach dropped. I thought, oh my gosh, these fools are going to be able to get validation without leaving the house.

33:24Back in the day, they actually did need to leave the house. Like they'd have to go to work or go into the world or their community in some way. They'd have to go out and get it. There was no way to share your life with everybody. These would certainly be the people in their friendship group who would yammer on about, let me tell you about my vacation to Hawaii. Back in the day, we'd call them, we'd have to watch your slides from the vacation. And so they would bore a small group of people. But then one day the world changed in a period of a year or two. And so what it did was social media gave especially the grandiose narcissistic people, in essence, a playground to get validation 24-7.

34:00And I think they've always been grandiose narcissistic folk, but they were really able to harness this platform to get the thing that they needed psychologically at a mass scale. Does getting more supply make you worse in terms of your behavior? Because otherwise, social media would be good, right? Because it's like, hey, now you can post your stupid vacation photos of Italy to Facebook and we can ignore them there. We don't have to come over for what you're pretending is your wife's birthday party, but is really a chance for you to show off your new car and your slides? Or is it like, oh, now that you can get likes, you're just even more insufferable because the supply comes more easily?

34:36One of the problems becomes is that it should, because when a narcissistic person has, quote unquote, enough supply, they're better regulated. So on a day, for example, a narcissistic person, let's say they get a promotion or they get a big bonus. They're the fun dad that day, great partner. They're good friends. They'll call, hey, how you doing? And they'll be like that person, right? Because it was their great day. But every day you can't get a promotion. Every day you can't get a big raise. So what social media did was initially, I think it was really exciting, but then it's never enough, right?

35:09That picture only got 200 likes. I wanted to get 2000 likes. I only have 100 ,000 followers. I want a million followers. So it created this new carrot to chase. And it also did something that really messed with the world in an interesting way. It allowed the narcissistic people to peer behind the curtain into other people's lives and recognize that some people have lives that might be cooler than theirs. And that made them go off. This is what made narcissism go bonkers. And the vulnerable narcissists, the subtype of narcissism, where these are people who often don't overtly at all look grandiose and preening and arrogant, but rather these are folks who look victimized, sullen, resentful, angry.

35:48Why didn't I get my turn? Why does he have more? I never got my chance. And they're very aggrieved. There's a failure to launch. For these vulnerable folks, seeing what other people have, if you will, has made them completely lose their minds. And I think all the internet trolls, that tends to be vulnerable narcissism. So all this cruelty we see on social media, a lot of that is gobbled up by the variance induced by vulnerable narcissism. That's insightful. Whenever I see these really cruel trolls, I always wonder, what do you like in real life? What is your deal? Julia Roberts just posted something and it was quite interesting.

36:26There's a photo of her with her niece and her niece had just slept over and they were playing cards or something. And she took a photo and it's cute. It's Julia Roberts and her cute niece holding cards and smiling, whatever. And she said, but the comments on the photo were so horrible. She's not aging well. And she gave some examples. And I was like, who's sitting here trashing Julia Roberts sitting with her niece? It's a cute photo. Move on with your life. And she said she's 51. And she just couldn't believe it because it hurts. And she didn't say it this way, but she's an internationally famous superstar.

36:58And she's like, it still hurt my feelings. And she goes, but what if I was 15 years old? That was her point. Like, it's just trashing people's self-esteem. But to your point, who's sitting there being like, I'm going to say the meanest thing I can to this person? The vulnerable narcissist. And it's dangerous, Jordan. It's not just like they're just saying mean things to people. It is sometimes creating an anger, a volcanic anger in folks who feel like, how come it's not me? How come I'm not getting my turn? I'm so mad. So I'm going to not only put other people down, I'm sometimes going to really lash out at them in dangerous ways.

37:27So in fact, there's a narcissism expert, Dr. Keith Campbell's professor at University of Georgia, who I absolutely adore him. He's such a brilliant man. But him and I are in both agreement. Grandiose narcissism, they've always been around. The people who brag and want to show you their vacation photos and think they're so great and they're annoying and they cheat on their wives, sure, whatever. They've always been there. But this particular brand of narcissism has also always been there too, but they've gotten this new fuel. It's like they're gonna bring other people down. Typically, the vulnerable narcissist could only bring down the people who are in proximity to them.

37:59Now they can do it everywhere. And the harm of it, like you said, 51-year-old woman is still gorgeous, successful. 51-year-old woman was hurt by it. Can you imagine in someone younger or someone more vulnerable, even they'd have to be 15, they could be at any age but vulnerable for some reason. It's very upsetting. And this whole idea of it's free speech, no, it's not free speech. It's cruel. And so that cruelty, though, very much, we can explain a lot of the variance there, It's vulnerable narcissism, this victim I saw, and how come it's not my turn? I'm entitled to having a better life than this.

38:31How come you have a better life than me? Grandiose narcissists don't get that kind of sour about it. They're like, I'm going to figure out how to get your life, and then I'm going to get it, and I'm going to get it better than yours. And they actually probably might, because grandiose narcissistic people have a lot of what we call agency. They go out and they get things done. That's why they're interesting. They're interesting to have on a team, because they actually behave like a-holes, but they do get things done. Yeah. So that's why they haven't been bred out of the population, because they occasionally have these great successes.

38:59They're just so motivated. That's what I was saying before about the influencers. You meet these people, and they don't want to have kids, and they don't want to have close friends, because they're just going to trade them in for cooler friends next year anyways. They don't say it like that, but I've got a former buddy who he literally told a bunch of our mutual friends, hey, I can't hang out with you anymore, because I really only hang out with famous superstars now, and you're just not there. And I was like, how are you saying this and not thinking I'm a piece of crap? I almost had to admire the chutzpah to even think it, let alone tell the person, hey, I'm not hanging out with you because you're not famous.

39:34Right. And we call it delusional grandiosity, right? It's not quite delusional because it was delusional, then it'd be psychotic. But it is an almost delusional grandiosity. They really believe their hype. And a lot of narcissistic people across all types of narcissism don't really have a filter. So they'll say what they want to say because they don't have empathy. We have filters in part because, first of all, because we have a frontal lobe, but second of all, because we have empathy. And so we might say, ooh, I want to say that, but I'm not because I could really hurt this person. And so I'm going to hold back on saying it for that reason.

40:06They don't have that need to do that. And also it's posturing. Look, I hang out with famous people and you don't. Ultimately, it's always a play for supply. Yeah, that's kind of one reason why you have that 1 % where you go, I feel bad for him. But then the other 99 % is, but he's such an a-hole. Yeah, yeah. I don't really feel bad for him. He's sort of like the really unlikable kid who had a swimming pool. And so people would be his friend in the summer. That's a great example. That's so funny. You mentioned consistency in the book. When they have adequate narcissistic supply, they're on top of the world, but then they're perpetually bored and they often seek excitement or novelty.

40:41And I'm guessing this is what leads to some of the overspending that these people do. and certainly a lot of the cheating in relationships, which the previous aforementioned example, he can't stop cheating on people that he's with because he'll trade in the nice girlfriend for the one that has more followers on Instagram, literally. And it's a choice no sane person would make. But it's not a sanity, right? The value system is different because that's the way, and the motivation system is different. And I think in understanding when you're in a relationship with someone narcissistic, listen, the healthiest people amongst us are very clear on what motivates them to do what they do.

41:15The more clear we are in our motivations, the more we're in line with our authentic selves. A person might even be able to say like, yeah, part of the reason I want that is ego. And owning that, it's healthy to know that because then when it doesn't work out, you're clear on why it stings, but it's not like a secret. The more secret things are, the more they sort of fester and come out in terrible ways. To tell you a narcissistic person has almost 0 % awareness of why they do the things they do. So if this is a mistake people always make in an argument with a narcissist, why would you have done that?

41:47For example, why would you have cheated on me? I've been such a good da-da-da-da. And the narcissistic person actually probably, because now shame has been brought up for them, they'll blame the other person. They'll defend themselves. It wasn't that big a deal. Let it go. But they'll never answer that question because they can't. Because they're just not connected to that part at all. They're completely unaware. No, there's no self-reflective capacity. The health, the work of being a person is to say, what is this about for me? So going back to what led me to say that is the motivations for healthy, it could be things like achievement and affiliation, even power, right?

42:21You know, we are social species. Human beings are social creatures. Wanting to be with other people, care about other people, it's built into our DNA. We needed it for survival when we're small. We're not turtles that came out of an egg on a beach and go swim off and figure it out. We are human beings that take a long time to develop and need our caregivers. Attachment matters to this species. And so when people don't care about it, they've definitely stepped off the norm. And I think that challenge is that you're playing by a different rule book when you're in this relationship. You may value closeness and love and connection, but they value power and domination and control and validation.

43:01One of you is playing chess and one of you is playing checkers. They're both great games, but they don't make sense to be played simultaneously. And someone's going to get frustrated real fast. Yeah, you can't play them on the same board and expect a good outcome. What's scary is, with the grandiosity especially, you don't know which version to expect. If your partner is narcissistic and you're home and you're watching Netflix and making dinner or something, you don't know who's coming home. Is it the person who had a great day at work because their boss was like, great presentation there, Simpson?

43:31or is it the person who their colleague that they don't like because they're constantly comparing themselves to them? That person got a compliment by the boss. So their entire life is now ruined for the next 48 hours. Who's walking in the door? That's the part that would give me just anxiety all day. That's why people in these relationships are always anxious because there is no consistency. There is no communication about it. Because, again, admitting I didn't get the promotion because I wasn't as good as the other guy, That brings up too much shame, whereas someone else will say, I didn't get the promotion.

44:02I feel absolutely terrible and I need a minute. But I also have to know that he had better sales totals than me. There's a healthy human being ultimately will get there. But that inconsistency and that unpredictability, which actually isn't unpredictability, it's really the narcissistic person's moods really literally are in lockstep with what happened with them that day. They lack that consistency, that through line. Even a person's like, I had a bad day. They might even call the partner and say, listen, I'm going to take a longer drive or I'm going to go to the gym on the way home because I need to let some of this out.

44:31I don't want to take it out on you. So there's enough of that self-awareness. No, I had a terrible day. I don't want to take it out on others or I better go to bed early or whatever. They don't do that. They can throw their tantrums everywhere. So really, in some ways, the narcissistic person stuck at the development level of a three or a four-year-old, I can tantrum anywhere and that people are going to forgive me because I'm three or four. So they do believe that people always have to show them grace, but they won't show grace to others. And that unpredictability, who's coming home? Who am I going to get?

45:00What's going to set them off? Means that anybody in one of these relationships does feel chronically anxious and chronically walks on eggshells. Yeah, I just couldn't imagine living like that. Another thing that I thought was quite insightful, you mentioned that the narcissists are chronically insecure, but it's not about high or low self-esteem, which I kind of tie those together. If you have low self-esteem, you're insecure. But it's not really about that. It's this lurking sense of inadequacy that's close to the bone, I think you said. And what's scary about this one is I'm like, wait, I think I have that too.

45:31But that in a vacuum doesn't make somebody a narcissist, right? It just makes them, I don't know, a little bit insecure, I suppose. Sureshi, when we talk about gaslighting, gaslighting is the pathologically insecure, preying on the conventionally insecure. Most of us are what I call conventionally insecure, right? To be a healthy human being is to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses. And none of us have had a perfect run of it. So we will admit like, oh, that's a little bit of tender tissue for me. And just be careful with that. And so we know what our insecurities are. And we slowly process them.

46:01And it takes a minute. It takes some miles on our tires to get there. Narcissistic people have what we'd call distorted self-esteem. Because they either think of themselves as the greatest, most perfect person in the world. Or they fall into a big blob of shame. There's no middle ground. Yeah, I know some of this. I don't know all of it. Like I'm not perfect at this. That idea that for the narcissistic person to either be ordinary or imperfect, it really feels intolerable because all of this perfection and this grandiosity and this greatness, it's like a suit of armor around all this insecurity.

46:35In fact, the analogy I've been using more and more is that you have to think of the insecurity and the shame inside a narcissist as like a volcano that's always bubbling in them. And on top of that volcano is like a big, heavy metal manhole cover. And that manhole cover is all their defenses, their grandiosity and arrogance and all the rest of it. But every so often, that manhole cover gets kicked off a little. Maybe they don't get the promotion. Maybe somebody makes fun of them. Maybe they don't get enough likes, whatever it is, they get nudged. Then some of that lava and that explosive gook comes out, and that comes out in the form of rage.

47:08And they're either going to rage at someone overtly aggressive or verbally angry, or they're going to be passive aggressive. or they're going to withdraw, or they're going to withhold. But either way, they're going to have a strong emotional reaction to some of that schmutzy shame coming out of them. And they want to get that manhole cover in place. And how do you get it in place? By being the dominant one. And you do that through your anger. Right. So you put other people underneath you or whatever. So they're fragile. They're also ashamed of being fragile from the sound of it. Oh, man. That's right.

47:38Do I have that one too? I don't know. Maybe I don't want to admit that. You're not lashing out at someone. So when we're having our fragile moments, we all have them. This is not saying that, well, the rest of us are not walking around with fragility. We're all walking around with it. It's what we do with it and understand it as simply being part of being a human being. I cry alone in the shower like everybody else. Love it. Narcissists clearly can't relate to others emotionally if they're like this. What do they do if you are ashamed of your own vulnerability or your own fragility? I would imagine that somebody else wanting to share that with you, like their own stuff, that would be probably triggering, right?

48:14If their romantic partner is like, I feel this way. I don't want anything to do with that. So the term emotion allergy has been used to describe narcissists, but it's actually more of a disgust or a contempt. It's as though when you open up those emotions, because it's pinging that manhole cover again, right? It's usually met with like, oh, God, really? You're so sensitive. And then there's often a pathologization of that other person. You're so sensitive. You're so needy. You're so this. So what they've done is they've projected their shame onto that other person. So now the other person's the one with the problem.

48:44You're the person that's all these messy emotions. Who needs it, right? And now the other person's left holding the bag that not only do they have an emotion, they're being told that they're dirty and bad. So that's how the narcissistic people do it. They fling it off. They're like made of Teflon. They're always flinging off onto others. So the others around them often feel quite destabilized. but the narcissistic person gets to stay pristine on the pedestal. Yeah, the projection thing rings true. Whenever I read one of your books, I'm like, oh, still talking about this person, like dead on for them.

49:11A lot of projection plus gaslighting. So it'd be like, you always do this. And it's like, what? I don't have any awareness of that. That's because you're not self-aware enough to do that. And then it's you did this thing or last month you did this thing. And I'm thinking, no, you're the one. You said that and did that. I didn't do that. And then you start thinking, am I just misremembering this? and then you have to ask other people if you even can, if they were there. And in one example, I lived with a person and his girlfriend and she would, of course, back him up. But I think 15 years later now, they've been broken up for a long time.

49:42She wrote me an email and I was like, hey, I'm surprised to hear from you. Yeah. She's like, well, I never actually really thought you were a bad guy, but I was dating this other person. So what was I supposed to do? And I was like, oh, OK, that pretty much shows me all I need to know, because I was thinking either I've come such a long way in the last 15 years, and I'm sure that I have in many ways, or a lot of that was bullshit. And I was just being blasted with it all the time. Yeah, I know. Projection is what we call a primitive defense. It is like an infant or something like that. This is not my problem.

50:11It's not my ick. It's your ick. And so then the person gets this again. They get to stay pristine within size. So as soon as there's any kind of unconsciously unacceptable impulse or feeling, it gets knocked off into someone else. And I always say an interesting tell on whether the narcissist is cheating on you is if you're not and they keep accusing you of cheating on them. I'm like, I have a feeling that their house isn't that clean. So it's whatever they're accusing you of is usually something that they're doing or struggling with. And so that's something to also pay attention to as well. But if you don't know what projection is while it's happening, you're like, what the hell?

50:45And then that it becomes part of also the larger framework of gaslighting where you're being accused of things that aren't true, being told there's something wrong with you, that you're not remembering things correctly. And like I said, because of empathy, initially we believe them. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dr. Romany. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

51:18And if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, feel free to email me. I'm jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I am happy to surface that code for you. Yes, it is that important. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Dr. Romany. Nobody wants to be a bad roommate and a bad friend. And then there's two of them and you're like, yeah, maybe I am ruining their relationship. What was interesting is finally my mom and other people were like, I'm pretty sure that this is what's going on and laying it out more clearly for me. And I'd gone to see a therapist and she was very much, you need to move out.

51:51And I was I don't know if I can, whatever. I move out. Two months later, they broke up because they couldn't blame me for their problems anymore. I was gone. And so the cannons had to move to her and she was like, oh. Correct. That's exactly right. So in some ways, there often can be a third party to absorb the blows. And then the person in the relationship who may be invested in making the relationship work. And this is how people get stuck, Jordan, is that when we believe we love someone. Our go-to isn't this person's toxic. It's how can I make this work? And how can I make this work means we take the responsibility on themselves.

52:25And when we see pieces of evidence that don't line up with this is a nice person, we're going to do everything we can do to either justify, rationalize, or find another explanation. So for a while, you were the justification. Oh, it's Jordan, it's Jordan, it's Jordan. Pull you out of the picture. And that's an interesting way when there is a third party, pull you out. And now it's mass destruction on the other person. The narcissistic person doesn't stop. They just find a new target. Yeah. It was quite interesting to hear from this woman after 15 years and have her be like, sounds like we both had a bad breakup.

52:56I was laughing because I was like, that's exactly what it was. I finally just left. My therapist was like, she basically fired me as a client a month later because she's like, all of the things that you were having problems with are just gone now. I was like, yeah, that was really interesting and something I should have seen clearly. And she's like, don't blame yourself. But it was quite interesting to see because usually I would imagine as a therapist, you don't just rip off one bandaid and then everything is fine. There's usually a lot more going on. But I guess if you live with somebody like that and they're throwing all this stuff on you and you're not actually the problem, then when you leave, it's, oh, I'm not depressed anymore because I'm not being abused essentially by somebody anymore.

53:34And I live on my own. And then you start making different friends and dating because you're not living with your two quote unquote best friends who actually hate you. Things change pretty rapidly. So anyone who's in this situation, much easier said than done, but like getting out is probably a really good idea. Oh, I always approach this part of the conversation very tentatively because a lot of people can't get out and they're, what then? Am I going to be in forever in hell? No, you're not. So it's this. In an ideal world, I'm going to be honest with you, the gold standard, the best way could go is you do not have to have contact with this person anymore.

54:07It's never, ever going to feel good. and anyone who's had that experience where they were able to get out of a narcissistic relationship after the initial shock. And if it wasn't too bad in the post-separation period, they'll say, yeah, no, my life is much richer with this person out of it. For those who have to stay in these relationships for whatever long reason, and no one has to defend the reason they're staying, but they have to stay. Healing is very possible. It's something I really break down in the book. It really is. A lot of this has to do, though, with that moment, that radical acceptance moment, that penny drop moment when you realize I'm never, ever going to get what I need here.

54:46It's the day you realize I keep just dropping a bucket in this well and I keep getting no water. And you're like, yep, this is not ever going to give me water. And that you start building up a world outside of it. It could be friends. It could be taking a class. It could be a social group. It could be a healthy spiritual community. It could be an exercise class. It could be anything and existing friendships that you put more time into that you realize that this is not the place to go. And there's a lot of grief around there because you're like, great, I'm in this marriage and it's never going to be healthy.

55:15And I had to go outside of it. However, then I tell people, let's bring you back to the why of staying. You might be staying for kids. You might be staying for financial reasons. That doesn't always feel good because a lot of people will say, listen, someone dropped a bag of money on me. This would take care of a lot of my problems. It mean I could move out. Because in expensive areas, it's actually hard to go and start a new household, especially if there's not a lot of money in play and a person doesn't have steady employment. There's a lot of things that might be at play here, but you definitely can still heal because once you see it clearly what it is, you'll be a little less likely to personalize it.

55:47You'll say, this is not a me thing. That's why I called it. It's not you. This is a them thing. And this is how they treat everyone. And my bad luck was this was the person I am with. And where can I find the meaning and the purpose? Where can I find the fulfillments in my life? Where can I find the awe and joy? And always remember to never share it with them because they're just going to make fun of it. And in the book, which we'll link in the show notes, and if you use the links to buy the books, it helps support the show. In the book, you have a lot of practicals that are like, here's what you can do to get validation or have fun doing things this way.

56:19And don't bother sharing it with a narcissistic person because they're not going to ever allow you to enjoy it. They're going to try to make it worse for you. There's a lot of practical sort of drills and exercises in the book, which I really appreciate because it's real easy for us to be like, get away from a narcissist. And everyone's like, cool, I'm a single mom with three kids under five. Thanks for the advice, you jerks. And that's thanks for the advice, you jerks. I wanted to get away from because I've seen this happen, even for cultural reasons, because my hope is that this book gets into hands of people around the world, is that in some parts of the world to say that this is ridiculous, like it's not even meaningful guidance and respectful.

56:50It doesn't account for the context. and also we elevate that to people who it's their parents especially if they're aging parents and people say okay these people are old i'm not walking away at this point i don't need to spend as much time with them but now they understand the limitations of these relationships and may actually ensure just that their older parents are not in danger or something like that ultimately you got to ask yourself what you can live with right because people say i feel like a sucker here i am taking care of this person and they've been nothing but terrible to me i'll say this is you're not doing it for them you're doing it because it's congruent with who you are And some people say, I'm actually a very caring person and I'm still not going to care for them.

57:26I'll say that's absolutely fine. It's always giving yourself permission to make the decision that feels right to you. Because that's what healing is, that you actually allow yourself to be you, to for your real self to finally be expressed because it was shut down in the narcissistic relationship. Yeah, I've got a friend who will take care of her aging parents, but she's like, I'm not letting you see the kids. And they're like, why are you abusing us by not letting us see our grandkids? And she's, no, I'm not letting you abuse them. but I'm still going to pay for your caretaker. I'm still going to come over and deliver groceries, but no, I'm not going to let you tell my 12-year-old daughter that she's fat every time you see her because it hurts her feelings.

58:01That's right. And unfortunately, they won't stop, right? They'll find the way in. Oh gosh, how are you? Don't worry. I won't say that you're fat. Your mom already told me I'm not supposed to say that. So you say it's never going to end. Like it's a game, right? It's all tactic. And there's a tremendous oppositionality to narcissistic people. You got to remember that You're not going to tell me what to do. And they're very big on that. My freedom. You're not going to tell me what to do. And so they get really riled up. So you can never ask them to do something directly. It's the sort of thing where you just don't do the dishes.

58:35And at some point, they're going to need a cup. And they'll wash it because they need the cup. Like asking them to wash the cup, that will get you nowhere. And so that's one thing that people have to remember is they're thinking, why is it that even when I directly communicate to them that they're not getting it, It's because they're naturally oppositional. You mentioned in the book that narcissism isn't a disorder. So what is it then? And also, isn't there a narcissistic personality disorder? Is that different? Because it sounds like a disorder. Narcissism is a personality style, right? It's a maladaptive personality style.

59:05It's an antagonistic personality style. It's not probably one of the good ones, but it is one, okay? Just like agreeableness is a personality style, and extroversion is a personality style, and neuroticism is a personality style. They're all personality styles, right? And when a person has a narcissistic personality style and they show up to a therapist's office or some licensed mental health practitioner, that person spends time with them and may evaluate them and say, this seems to all add up to NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, and they put it in their record. That's when a person has narcissistic personality disorder.

59:41And that doesn't happen that much. In fact, most of the research that's done here, it's usually done on groups of people who are already coming into a clinic and we don't get their names. Like I've done a lot of this kind of research with hundreds or thousands of patients and they come in and we interview them with a very set checklist, but they're not often coming in for clinical care. And they're also not coming in because they're coming in for help. They're coming in to be in a research study. In those studies, we've seen NPD, narcissistic personality disorder prevalence rates, somewhere between one and six percent, right?

1:00:09That's usually what the research has found. Now, there are people out there in the world, Jordan, who have a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. And frankly, their narcissistic patterns may not be as severe as someone who doesn't have the diagnosis. It's just that the person who doesn't have the diagnosis never went to go see someone. And since the vast majority of narcissistic people don't end up in a clinician's office, most of them aren't diagnosed. So I personally think they should get rid of the diagnosis. I don't think it's helping anyone, but that's the difference. You also said that in the book, the more maladaptive a personality, the less likely they are to change.

1:00:42Why is that? You would think somebody who's more maladaptive would have more consequences and therefore might actually try harder to fix something, but that's maybe not what happens. Mental flexibility is key to health. Just like physical flexibility is key to health, mental flexibility is key to health. It's why people are resilient. It's why people are able to solve problems. There's a sort of a go with the flow, being able to pivot, being able to adapt to new situations, all flexibility. Antagonistic personality styles like narcissism are very inflexible. So they're almost like people whose muscles are absolutely stiff as can be.

1:01:15It's not good for your health. It's also not good for your mental health. And accompanying these maladaptive styles are things like a incapacity for intimacy, a closeness with another person, a real incapacity for empathy, a lack of awareness of why they do what they do, that lack of self-direction. There is a lack of clarity in how they set goals. This is what we see across all maladaptive styles. And so it's different depending on the personality style. So it's not an adaptive style. It is not a resilient style. It is not a style that's good relating to other people. And those things are key to being a healthy human being.

1:01:50So that's why it's called maladaptive. Yeah, that does make quite a bit of sense. And of course, some of these characteristics that come with narcissistic abuse or narcissistic behavior are interesting. You mentioned gaslighting before. I'm not sure everybody knows what that is. Can we do it now? Yeah, so gaslighting is a tactic, for lack of a better way to call it. And I think it qualifies as emotional abuse. And gaslighting involves a relationship that's predicated on some level of trust. One person's a gaslighter, one person's a gaslightee. The gaslighter will doubt the reality, perceptions, experience, memory of the other person in the relationship.

1:02:28And then they will also imply that there's something wrong with the other person. Like, I never said that. What's wrong with you? What are you, like, demented? Do you have, like, memory problems? So it's not just saying, I never said that. That's the first part of gaslighting. But they really have to tell the other person there's something wrong with them. But because this relationship is based on trust, it could be a partner, it could be a family member, it could even be, like, a medical professional, somebody who has an expertise, you believe them. You believe it's plausible what they're saying, right?

1:02:57Because none of us are going to remember every single thing. And so you'll say, okay, yeah, sure. And now you're destabilized because they're going after you having something wrong with you at this point. So now you're in a different argument. But this doesn't happen just once. Gaslighting, certainly in a narcissistic relationship, happens all the time. So over time, people who are gaslighted second guess themselves. They doubt themselves. They blame themselves. they can almost become obsessive in how they do things. Okay, I need to make sure this is 100 % correct. Okay, did we document everything?

1:03:28Because I don't want them to come back around and say, so you waste a lot of time over and over again. They'll say, did you remember that this and this on a trip? And in fact, you will have put it aside, but then they chose not to put it in the bag. And so you'll feel literally like you're losing your mind. This can involve things like even manipulating the environment just to mess with you. So they might move the checkbook and you're religious about putting it in the same place every time. you go to the place, it's not there. You're like, what the actual? And they'll turn around and say, well, I guess you're not as organized as you thought you were.

1:03:59So they will do something to undercut that sense of self. It is abuse. And it is a part of every narcissistic relationship. Gaslighting though, Jordan, it's not just lying. And it's also not a difference of opinion. So you'll have to see two people in a conversation and they'll say, I think that this team is great. And the other person will say, I think that team is absolutely terrible. And they'll say, you're don't gaslight me and make them a gaslighting they just have a different opinion than you that's not gaslighting yeah this is literally denying their reality and possibly engineering things so that you look right the moving the checkbook thing that's next level right because now you're not just lying to make up for something that you forgot oh you didn't bring the passports you said you put them in your bag and you're like oh crap i did but i don't want to be wrong so i can see somebody gaslighting if they really can't be wrong because it like fractures their worldview of them is perfect or whatever it is.

1:04:48But then to engineer a situation in which somebody else is wrong, that is really pathological and creepy. Yeah, but if they're trying to bolster their argument, because it might very well be like your gaslighting response, you do, you organize everything to within an inch of its life. And they know that. And you're like, no, this house is practically alphabetized. They're not going to let you have that position. So they're going to do something to destabilize that position. It would be to move something. In the Darvo model, you see this all the time on the internet. I think this is fascinating.

1:05:18Is there a brief way to take us through this? Because I think a lot of people might go, oh my God, this is happening to me. Yeah. So DARVO, let's give props to Dr. Jennifer Fried who developed this model. And DARVO stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim, Offender. Happens in every narcissistic relationship and she has the data to show it. So let's say you go to them and say, hey, you got to stop texting this woman at work. Like this isn't cool. Like this is not right. It doesn't feel good. I don't text her. And really, what are you doing getting into my phone? How do you know who I'm texting?

1:05:47And you know what? What are we even talking about here? Like, you don't even pay a lick of attention to me. It's always your friends and your job. And I just sit here by myself all the time. Who are you? What am I even in? So now we've gone to a partner saying, what you're doing is not cool. And it makes me uncomfortable to you've abandoned them. But in Darvo, again, originally that work actually was done on sex offenders. But then we came to find out that it actually applied to anyone with an antagonistic personality. This is the deny, attack, reverse victim, offender. And it confuses the hell out of the other person because now you're in a new argument.

1:06:22Because now this woman who is saying, I really am not cool with how much you're texting this person. And it seems like a little bit too friendly, friendly has now become you've abandoned your spouse. The other thing that was creepy about the narcissistic abuse is minimization, because this is where somebody says, oh, you're just complaining about this, or you're always being dramatic. But sure, fine. In some ways, that's just crappy. But if it's medical stuff that's being minimized, now you're talking about life and death. Because I was trying to think about why this would be anything more than just annoying and hurtful.

1:06:52But yeah, if someone's saying you're just being dramatic because you have abdominal pain, you could ignore a tumor or something. And it happens more often than you think people delay preventative care. They delay mental health care. They may delay repairs on a car. And it also may stall their lives. It's like, oh, please stop. Your boss isn't a bad person. Let it go. And a person stays in a job longer than they should or something. But what it does is it undercuts a person's ability to plug into the reality of their own lives in the sense of, I guess this isn't that big a deal. And so what happens is even long after you're out of the relationship, you don't feel like you have the voice to be able to say something matters or something is important.

1:07:35and because you've always been told everything in your life is ridiculous and small and all of that. Tell me about breadcrumbing. There's other forms of abuse, but breadcrumbing is something I hadn't heard of before. So over time, a narcissistic relationship really becomes a place of neglect, right? So narcissistic people are really good at showing up with sort of attention and fun from time to time and then not being there at all. And that back and forth thing is actually why these relationships are so easy to get stuck in because there's enough good moments sprinkled in there that you feel like you're in something meaningful or fun or important.

1:08:08And we make all our excuses on the basis of that. But over time, more and more neglect, and they're showing up less and less. So it's nothing. It's almost like you're with a person who doesn't even notice you're in their presence, which is actually a very kind of unsettling feeling. So people in these relationships will make so much out of the littlest thing. Like they'll say, you won't believe this. They said, happy Valentine's Day to me this morning before they went to work. And that's it. Or they're like, oh, you're not going to believe it. They did remember my birthday. They had to go to business trips.

1:08:40Their job's really important. They did send me a birthday text. And this is their partner. And so you make, take this little thing or they came home for dinner. Amazing. We're so good. They came home for dinner. And so that taking the tiniest thing and making it into all this good stuff, literally turning a breadcrumb into a meal, because the narcissistic person's learning they can do less and less and you're still on the chain. But it's two parts of this process. The other person, desperate to keep it going for this reason of trauma bonding and all this other stuff, will make something out of that.

1:09:12And here's where it gets tricky, Jordan, because in our world, the relationship industrial complex is appreciate every little thing they do. So you're reading another blog that's saying, show gratitude five times a day. That's almost masochistic having to show gratitude to someone who's ignoring you. And then of course, if you try to end things with them, there'll be love bombing, right? Because the deprivation has lasted so long that they can now turn it up a couple of notches to try and retain you. And it seems like that might be more effective if they've deprived you in the first place. Well, if they've deprived you, they don't even have to love bomb you.

1:09:46They just have to show up for dinner. That's it. That's all they have to do. But they have to say, you look pretty. They have to have sent you a birthday text. Like the littlest things become the stuff that is enough in the relationship. And if they really do sense you slipping away, then they'll start the full court press again, just long enough to get you back in. What is trauma bonding? You just mentioned that. I've heard it before, but I don't really know what it is. So trauma bonding is this connection, relationship, tied to someone we feel that almost feels psychologically unbreakable. And it's created by the backing and forcing between good and bad, chaos and consistency.

1:10:25So you're always on your back foot in these relationships. And because these relationships often start from a relatively idealized place, things are great. You feel seen, you feel heard, you feel loved, you feel valued. There's all this fun. That becomes this sort of like bank account you keep trying to draw from from your justifications. It will get overdrawn over time. But what ends up happening is that over time, you're justifying, you're rationalizing. But over time, too, you're blaming yourself more. People say, this has got to be my fault. If it's your fault, then it can be fixed, right?

1:10:56You could do something different. People in trauma-bonded relationships will find that they are constantly having the same conflict with this person. Nothing is ever getting resolved. People, when they describe trauma-bonded relationships, they'll say, it's like we have a magical connection. What is the hell is a magical connection? It doesn't even mean anything. Give me something I can hang a hat on. What is this? They're just not like, they won't say like, this person is, I trust them. I respect them. We laugh together. It's none of that stuff. Or they'll get stuck again on ephemeral stuff like loyalty.

1:11:25Like people love their parents. And I'm like, well, why do you love your parent? Like ejaculation doesn't qualify someone to be a parent. Let's just call that straight. But people are like, they're my parent. Give me more. And so when it's a trauma-bonded relationship, right, it's kept in place by this, again, this sort of this pseudo connection that's created by there's a someday better coming and I know it's going to come and I know I can do something to make it come. And people in trauma-bonded relationships, Jordan, intellectually can even say, I know this isn't healthy, but I don't know how to tell you.

1:11:58If I have to leave this, I'm having a sense of panic even thinking about it. So there's this sort of left brain, right brain, emotionally laden, I can't leave. But this intellectually present, I understand it's not healthy for me. That's the trauma-bonded relationship. So fascinating. And I think a lot of people listening are like, oh no, I'm doing that. And that's why one of the reasons I love doing these kinds of episodes, like the last time you and I did an episode, I got so many emails that were people like this explains so much, whether it's their husband, their mother in law, whether their kids.

1:12:30And so I'm looking forward to those emails because it means the light bulb went off over someone's head and they go, OK, now that I know what's going on, I can get the book and then figure out what to do about it instead of just blaming myself for my failing marriage and my husband who's cheated on me 78 times. different people. And nothing I'm doing is changing. I lost weight. That didn't work. I got new boobs. That didn't work. I got my hair fixed. It didn't work. We moved to a bigger house. That didn't work. Nothing is going to work. And I think that it's like an experiment at that point, right?

1:13:00If you think of a researcher in a lab, they keep trying every variant and they keep a record of it, right? We tried that. That didn't work. We tried that. That didn't work. And they at least keep records. So they're going to say, okay, none of this is working. Unfortunately, in our lives, it's not a research project. We're not keeping the accumulated evidence. And in fact, there's a real investment from a nervous system perspective that we conveniently push all that evidence out of the way. Wow, that makes a lot of sense, right? Because keeping a journal of all the times, which is one of your pits of advice, actually, of all the times you've been gaslighted and abused, that's going to break the psychological shelf to hold all that crap eventually, right?

1:13:35It's going to be hard to deny when you're on your 13th notebook because it's full of double-sided, printed out whatever accounts of this person treating you like crap. You can't really deny that it exists anymore. You can't deny it, but you still feel that physiological feeling, which is why healing isn't as simple as saying, this person's terrible. I have to do something about this. It's also understanding how you experience this in your body. I would love to do another show in a few months because I'm like halfway through my notes on this. We got to talk about at some point how to spot a narcissist, how they suck us back in and retain us.

1:14:10what psychological tricks we're playing on ourselves, like euphoric recall and all these different things, self-blame. I would love to get into that in the next one, but we're going to be here all day if we do it now. So I'm just going to say thank you so much for this. We got to do something in the spring or the summer too. I would love to. I love talking with you. You do a deep dive. You read the book so carefully. But above all else, I want to always remind people, as hard as this all sounds, It's Not You is really a book that tells you anyone can heal and you can heal. and what's on the other side is actually really good.

1:14:41Thank you very much. Really appreciate your wisdom and can't wait for the next one. Thank you. We've got a preview trailer of our interview with Dr. James Fallon on how psychopath brains function differently from the rest of us and why psychopaths thrive in modern society. I'm a neuroscientist since about 1989. I've studied the brain imaging scans of killers, serial killers, really bad murders. and usually did one or two a year for many years. And then in 2005, 2006, I got sent a ton of them and I analyzed them. I said, oh my God, there's a pattern. So I saw this pattern that nobody had ever described.

1:15:19But at the same time, we were doing a clinical study on the genetics of Alzheimer's disease. And we had all the Alzheimer's patients we needed. So we needed normals, just normal controls. And so I asked my family, that was kind of my first mistake. I said, look, guys, you want to all get in. I had my brothers, my wife. I said, we'll test you. And the idea being that on my side of the family, there was no Alzheimer's at all. So we did it. And the two technicians walked into my office. And on my right side, I pile all these murderers, RAIN scans. And they handed me a pile of my family scans. And they were covered up so I couldn't see the names.

1:15:55And so I went through, I went through one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I was really relieved that they looked at the first pass normal and then i got to the last scan and looked at it i said okay guys i said this is very funny you kid around with each other right and i said okay you switched you took one of the worst psychopaths from this pile of murders and you switched it into my family haha and they go no that's no it's part of your family i said you gotta be kidding i said this guy shouldn't be walking around in open society it's probably a very dangerous person so i had to tear back the covering on the name of it.

1:16:31And there was my name. For more with Dr. James Fallon, including how to spot a psychopath in the wild, check out episode 28 here on the Jordan Harbinger show. There is so much we did not get to. I am already booking part two. Don't worry. It's going to be out in, I would say, a few weeks to a few months, depending on how crazy things get around here. But we are recording that ASAP. It's amazing how narcissists can retain you in a relationship, right? They'll blame shift. They'll use the Darvo sort of methodology. Narcissists can be like skilled lawyers in terms of putting you at fault for pretty much anything they do.

1:17:06They'll use word salad. And there's a concept that I love from the book called future faking, which is essentially everything will be good just as soon as X, right? It's that bad bet on a better future under certain conditions that either never come or when they come, it's just never enough because these people are just a black hole in terms of validation. Really important to remember that their behavior, it was there before you got there, and it'll be there after you leave. It will never change, at least not because you wanted it to. These people really have to go for it themselves. It's extremely rare, and well, you shouldn't bet on it.

1:17:39All things Dr. Romany will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com, or you can ask the AI chatbot on the website as well. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. We've also got our newsletter. Every week, the team and I dig into an older episode of the show and dissect the lessons from it. So hey, if you're a fan of the show, and I hope you are, and you want a recap of important highlights and takeaways, or you just want to know what to listen to next, the newsletter is a great place to do that.

1:18:07JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. We got the logical fallacy flashcards in there as a little bonus for you. Don't forget about Six Minute Networking as well. That's over at SixMinuteNetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And this show, let's create in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Feed for this show as you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, and I think a lot of you are going to get something out of this.

1:18:38The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who's involved with a narcissist, trying to get out, trying to figure out how to change their behavior, which we know we cannot do, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis.

1:19:09Basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies. An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that.

1:19:41From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a great new podcast can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack. Let me save you some hassle. Check out Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers. Every episode is packed with fascinating insights that you can actually use. Mike interviews top experts on topics that shape your life, like how to optimize your brain chemistry, the best and worst ways to apologize, probably could have used that recently, why couples hate to talk about money.

1:20:17No matter the topic, Mike asks the questions you'd want to ask, getting straight to the good stuff. And the conversations are always engaging, always insightful, guaranteed to leave you a little smarter than before. They've got thousands of five-star reviews, but do you even need that? I'm recommending it. You don't need other people's opinion, right? At this point, I would hope. Anyway, give it a listen. Just search for Something You Should Know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening to Something You Should Know.