960: Amir Levine | Finding and Keeping Love with Attachment Science

24:14Oh my God. There are a lot of different ways in which to create more distance. But it's almost like, I don't like to say, I used to give this analogy that they're like, think about the difference like a cat. They don't like to, but then I actually found out that some cats really love closeness a lot and some cats don't. And I really think it's the same also, even within cats and within dogs, you'll see these different attachment styles, I think, about how much they prefer closeness or distance. Even I can see it with my dog. He doesn't like too much closeness. And you can see it on social media.

24:46Some of those dogs are literally like lying on your face. My dog is always at the edge of the bed. So he's still next to me, but he's always at the edge of the bed facing away. So he needs closeness, but with some distance. That's kind of like more of the avoidance. That's really funny. Okay, so, and I touched on this earlier. I was going to ask if we develop these based on how we're raised by our parents. And the answer is maybe, but we're not 100 % sure, right? I think it really depends on both our environment and our relationships. So definitely some echoes to our initial relationships with our parents.

25:22But then also some researchers in the Testament believe that a lot of it changes in adolescence. Okay. Because that's a time when we shift our focus from our primary relationships with our family and all of a sudden our peers become very important to us. So all of a sudden we have an opportunity to change that working model. We have a new opportunity to sort of form close relationships and maybe they're very different. Maybe we had a chaotic relationships at home, but all of a sudden we have best friends in school that are really amazing and they show up for us and are very secure. And especially in adolescence because the adolescent brain is very malleable.

25:59So people believe that adolescent brain, that adolescence is a time when you can shift a lot of your attachment. But really throughout life, and it depends on our life experiences, that's where my part comes in. That's why I love to work in this paradigm as a therapist, because you can really help people shift their working models, i.e. their attachment system. But I also have to say that I think it's also partially genetic. Oh, interesting. Hypervigilance, I think, is somewhat genetic. And certainly I think how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness, I think is also genetic. That's fascinating.

26:36I mean, I guess it makes sense because a lot of stuff is genetic, but I guess I just would have figured that it would have always be environment. I don't know. I think a lot of the things we think about it more is gene environment interaction. And who knows, maybe it's also environment in terms of what's the environment in utero, in the womb that you've had. Right. Okay. Is that epigenetics when it's the environment interacting with genes? Or is, I'm always confused by that. Yeah. No, it is epigenetic. That's how environment affects gene expression. I see. By epigenetic mechanisms.

27:10You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Amir Levine. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I manage to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. and I am teaching you how to build your network for free over at sixminutenetworking.com. This course is about improving your relationship building skills. It is not a schmoozy, cringy, sort of like, let me get what I want from people type of thing. There's not cheesy tactics. There's not awkward stuff that you're gonna have to do.

27:39It's not gonna make you look like a jackass. Six Minute Today is all it takes and many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to that course. So come on, join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at sixminutenetworking.com. Now, back to Amir Levine. for some reason that stuff always gets a little fuzzy around the edges probably because there's so much new and misinformation about that kind of field that sometimes i'm not sure if i'm just parroting some crap from a quack on instagram or something from a book no no you're not it just happens to be exactly the area of research that i do okay in my lab and so you're completely correct it is epigenetics okay good i'm glad to hear that don't have to edit that out now All right.

28:21So I love this stuff because it seems like understanding attachment styles will allow us to, and I'm putting this in air quotes because it's not really this, but predict how people will likely behave inside relationships. And I think we all kind of know this intuitively, right? If you've dated a few anxious people, like I'll just say from my own experience, you date an anxious gal in ninth grade. Okay. You see it again in college. You recognize it a little sooner and you're like, oh, you haven't grown out of this yet. And then when you're dating in your 30s and you see it again, at least as far as I was concerned, I was like, oh, no, thanks.

28:56I can't do this again. I did this. I'm not saying you're going to act like my high school girlfriend. I'm not saying you're going to act like my college girlfriend, but I'm getting a whiff of like, why didn't you text me when you got home? I just met you today. That's a little early for the, you know, I'm like, and then you give them one more chance and it's like, oh, this is one of those people where like they want me to turn the find my iPhone thing on on our third date so they know where I am at all times. I'm good. This isn't going to work. So this kind of stuff is really useful. We didn't have names for it back then.

29:25You know, we got our first sort of clinical terminology from wedding crashers, right? Stage five clinger. And that was it. But we can also understand our own actions as well. If right now someone listening is going, oh, I have an anxious attachment style. style or someone's going, oh, I have a secure attachment style, but my husband has an anxious attachment style. Okay, I got to read this book because now I need to find out what other things overlap and make sense and what other things have I not seen. That's why I like this kind of stuff. Yeah, because it really gives you a blueprint. I'll talk about myself.

30:00It gave me a blueprint that I didn't have at the time. The way I came across this information is I was doing my child and adolescent residency. I'm both an adult and a child and adolescent psychiatrist. I were in this clinic, it was a therapeutic nursery where we treated mothers with PTSD and their toddlers. And oftentimes what would happen, the toddler would yell because toddlers do. And the mother would have PTSD symptoms and she'll back away. And then they'll actually yell more because she's backing away. And that's basic attachment. So we used attachment principles to help secure the relationship between the mother and the child.

30:37And it was so powerful and so effective that I became so curious that I did something you don't really have time to do when you're a resident. They give you this long reading list and you never really read it. I went and I read every single thing in that reading list. And that's where I came across this whole field of adult attachment. I was blown away. We've never been taught that in any clinical setting. It was only something that people knew in social psychology. And I'm like, this really explains. And at that time I was going through a breakup and it really explained to me what I was going through.

31:09because in my mind, I was thinking, I met this person and we really got along. And when I met someone and we got along, I was thinking, oh, I start to think about a future together, doing stuff together, more commitment. But then the person told me, no, no, no. When I meet someone and I get along with them, I want to move away across the country. Wow, avoidant to the max. Yeah, exactly. And that didn't make sense to me. It's like, what's wrong? So the only way I could explain it to myself before I came across this information is that like, they don't love me. If they love me more, it's like that love always comes in the same shape and form.

31:46And it's just an intensity thing. And if this person loved me more, then things would have worked out, but I'm not good enough. I'm not important enough, which is a little bit of an anxious thing. And so that's why they don't want to be with me, but I didn't know any better. And that's one of the myths that if you don't know the signs, you think that everyone is capable of the same amount of love, which is not true. I see. That's not what the signs finds. So to me, that was such a revelation to discover, yes, this person is avoidant and it doesn't make me feel good. And I don't like that. Yeah.

32:18It helped me then move on eventually. And then when I was looking, it helped me find someone more secure. I could recognize it really early on. It was like, you know what? That's not for me. Sorry. For you, maybe the anxious, I can deal with the anxious more easily. The avoidant is harder for me. Honestly, the avoidant sounds really hard. I don't think I've ever really, I shouldn't say ever. I think I just had a few dates with those people. And then they were like, I'm really busy with work. I'll call you in a month. I've had a couple of things go that way. And I'm like, but we got along super well.

32:49Our friend introduced us because you were looking to date somebody. You met me. We clicked. We had three really awesome dates. And now suddenly you don't have time to see me at all anymore, even though I live walking distance from your house. I remember being like really confused by that. and now that I think about it though, when I think about like other conversations I had with this particular woman, every relationship for her, she said, ended because she got busy with work and I was like, oh, you must have a really busy job and then when it happened to me, I was like, wait a second, wait a minute.

33:22It really does sound like the person you met that said, oh, I really like you. I never wanna see you again. I'm gonna move to California or whatever. That is bizarre behavior, but people, I guarantee you, there's a lot of people listening right now who are like, oh, I do that. Whenever I like somebody, I just like accept a job posting in Afghanistan and then leave. Yeah, no, it's very scary for them. The feeling of closeness is not something that comes easy. And I like to say the way I think about people that are avoidant, the easiest analogy is to say it's like someone who's a stray cat. You can't just like force them.

33:55You have to leave out the milk and have them come on their time, on their dime when they are ready to accept it. And they, or maybe it's just like to tame a wild animal. It's like slowly, slowly have to have them come and sort of make them feel a little bit safer and always give them their distance so they can actually slowly, slowly get close to you again on their time. Oh God, that sounds exhausting though. And you did mention that there's three to 5 % of the population that's an anxious avoidant combination. How does that work? Because if you're anxious, you're kind of constantly wanting to check in on somebody because you're hypervigilant.

34:34But then, I don't know, once you check in on them, you retreat. How does that look in practice? Yeah. So it's very difficult. Really, what people think is that oftentimes they're called the fearful avoidance or in short, fearfuls. Okay. So what people really believe is that this is really is potentially a byproduct of some trauma in the past. So what happens is you crave that closeness, but you're also so afraid of other people hurting you. So you crave it and you crave it. But when you get close to someone, you feel very uncomfortable and you feel danger. Just closeness by itself means danger.

35:11And then you retreat and you try to come close and then you retreat. And it's very, very frustrating. It can be very, very painful for people to manage these two. Because people who are like, they're also called dismissive avoidance. People are like straight avoidance. They're like, oh, I don't need anyone. I'm better off on my own. I can do everything myself. Why should I need anyone? If I meet someone, that's fine, but I don't really want them or I want someone, but I don't really need them. But fearful avoidance are like, no, I really want someone. But when I find myself together with someone, I feel very unsettled and scared and hurt.

35:48That makes me want to text my wife, I love you right now. I'm going to do that real quick. I don't know why, but just in case, just in case she's responding. That's funny. I mean, you know, that never hurts, man. Life pro tip. Of course. Text your significant other whenever it occurs to you that are never going to mind. First of all, I think that goes along with also, I love thanking my significant other a lot for even the littlest things. We thank each other all the time. And I love apologizing. I know people are like, why should I apologize? I think apologizing is the best thing, the best invention ever.

36:22but not like just like a dismissive apology, really a heartfelt apology, because that sort of brings us to understanding what the secret, some of the secrets of attachments. And if you understand attachment, how you can tweak your relationships and make them better. If you understand what the role of relationships are, that they are actually to make us safe, to make us feel safe and that we feel safe through others, then that really opens your world to a completely new way of looking at relationships. So it really means that you have this responsibility for the well-being of the other person, and they have the responsibility for your well-being.

36:58And once you really take that on, that's a game changer in my mind. Yeah, that's a pretty insightful little glimpse into it. I like that concept. I like thinking about that that way. But it only really makes sense in a sort of a secure attachment style relationship, right? Because I feel like if you're avoidant, if you think, oh, I need to have the other person's well-being. That's got to just be a terrifying thought that you're responsible in some part for other people's well-being because you're not even like doing a good job with yourself at that point. You're so spot on. That's exactly the thing they're most afraid of.

37:28It's like, why should I be responsible for this other person's well-being? We are all independent and self-sufficient and they should look after themselves and I should. That's the motto of someone who's avoidant. But what you really convince them, what you show them in treatment is that actually taking care of that attachment system, it's a very simple system. It doesn't require that much. It doesn't require like being attached at the hip all the time. That's what they're afraid of. If anything, like I told you initially, it's like those little tweaks. If you preemptively text, you preemptively stay, you keep the system quiet.

38:06It's a physiological system. It wants to find homeostasis, which is like a very fancy word for it. It just wants balance. And that's what avoidants don't know how to do. But you teach them how to sort of help reach balance in their relationship, in their lives. And it's much easier than they think. And it requires a lot less time. And actually, paradoxically, it gives them more time. Because when your spouse feels that you have your back, they're not going to think about you all day. They're not going to like why you're not home. They're going to be busy doing their own thing. That's a dependency paradox.

38:38In order to become independent, we have to find someone that we can trust and be dependent. on. And then we don't think about them. It's like your child, your children, if they know that you're around, they're like, oh, who cares about you? Let me play with a game. I mean, and every once in a while, they check to see where you are, but they don't really care. But if something happens and they become like activated, forget about it. They're not going to be interested in playing. They're like, where is he? What are they doing? Why are they not here for me? Looking at the difference in my daughter, I mean, some of my kids, they're two and four.

39:07So their attachment, I don't even know if like attachment styles are going to, of course, they're not going to stay the same. My daughter, who's two, is always like, where's mommy? All the time. Or where's the nanny? Where's all the time? But my son is kind of like, whatever. Can you get my slime down from the shelf? Thanks, dad. Go away. Go to your office and work now. I'm playing with my son. It's completely different. And it's kind of funny to watch. And even looking at, she's going to kill me, but whatever. My wife's attachment style early in the relationship, She had gotten out of like kind of a kooky, crazy situation before.

39:40And I didn't really know that when we started dating because, you know, I don't want to know all the details of your previous relationship. But we would text all the time and stuff. And then I got busy and went on a trip and then got busier with some other work project. And she was like, your behavior is changing. And I remember her being like super paranoid about it. And I had to be like, hey, this doesn't mean anything. I just I was at a conference before where I had nothing to do but text you all day because I was sitting there watching speakers. And now I'm back in the office. Now, of course, we've been married for a while and she's like, whatever.

40:06She doesn't need to hear from me every day. It's fine. But it was interesting to see that, thinking about it now in practice, just this kind of stuff. Her attachment style may be molding, and mine for that matter, changing over time as you realize like, oh, this person's not going anywhere. For sure. And if you think about it, if you're in a relationship with someone who is avoidant, then the truth is it really does change because initially, before there's a lot of closeness, they also crave, they have this dream, no, one day I'll find someone and you'll be perfect. And sometimes they don't understand.

40:37They find someone, they get close to them. They don't know that they're afraid of closeness. So what they think it's more like, oh, this person is not the right one. I don't feel the love. It's withering away. I really felt very intensely initially, but now it's not, not realizing that it's the closeness and then they change on you. So people on the receiving end of that, if it happens to you several times, it's like, then you become hypervigilant because you put yourself out there when you're dating, you really, it's hard. Dating is hard because you do put yourself out there emotionally and you do make yourself vulnerable.

41:08You have no other choice. Then they change on you and then you're really hurt. And so she was like, what's happening? And you're like, no, it's not happening. And then you convinced her somehow that message, you had this ability to convey to her that she's safe and now she feels safe the way that you're describing it. I think I was, if memory serves, I was just a little more conscious about like calling her on the phone when I had 10 minutes instead of texting her every 10 minutes during a day when I met watching people talk on a stage and literally doing nothing else. And I was like, okay, she really just needs like a minor amount of checking in.

41:41And it's fine. She wasn't like, I don't want to give the impression my wife was like some sort of crazy attached person. No, but that's the key thing. It's like, that's mostly what it needs. We just found the right way to make that radar settled. And from there on, it's not always perfect, but it's certainly much, much easier. but you were able to somehow put it together and see she responded, you responded, and you found the right solution. But sometimes in some relationships, people don't find the right solutions or people don't even care. Like you said, then you called more or you did something.

42:15You did something. But other people, if you were more avoidant, you were like, excuse my language, but F that, I'm not calling, I'm not texting. She should learn how to sort of deal with it and even actually withdraw more. Right. And that can actually start the whole snowball. Like it really starts this whole chain reaction, a vicious cycle. Then they reach out more. Then you withdraw more. Then they reach out more. We withdraw more. That's kind of like the anxious avoidant trap. Yeah. Oh man. I can see that becoming a really big mess. So it's no wonder that the people have the most relationship satisfaction are the secure people because there's just so much less drama might not be the right word because we're just talking about it's less effort for sure because you're not thinking like, oh, I better call my wife now or she's going to get mad.

43:01And then if she gets mad, then this other thing's going to happen. And then if I do this, then like, I don't have to think about that kind of stuff in my relationship, but I know friends of mine that absolutely have to do that. Definitely. But when you're secure, you think about it more like, oh, I'm going to call her because it's going to make her so happy. So you always, preemptively, you're a step before that. You're a step before that misery. You're to stay with happiness instead of stepping into misery. And you're always a step ahead. And that's why I love the secures in this world because they're so good in staying a step ahead.

43:32The same thing with parenting. If you're kind of like, oh, I'm not going to let them get super tired. So you stay a step ahead. It's not always easy. obviously it's not the perfect world and we don't always do it, but some people do it more than others. I think that's fascinating. I never thought about it with the parenting. Yeah, I'm still working on getting my kids to go to bed at a reasonable time. I mean, that's always been challenging. That's always a challenge. Yeah. Feeding them on the other, well, actually that's a challenge too. What am I talking about? They never want to eat. You said something really insightful in your book and I'm going to paraphrase here because it's been so long, but I think it was people are often only as needy as their unmet needs.

44:06Does that ring any bells for you? Yes, of course. I just like, because I think it was one of the most highlighted sort of lines in Attach. Interesting. Yeah, people, it really resonates with people. It's really from an attachment perspective. If you understand the physiology and you understand the science, it's exactly the kind of thing that we've talked about before. And it all came from, I have to say, the attachment styles were discovered by Mary Ainsworth, first in Uganda, when she observed mothers, babies, when they're being weaned from breast milk. And then when she came back to Baltimore, she actually set up this thing that's called the strain situation test.

44:42That's where attachment styles were also discovered in an experiment where you bring in a toddler with a mother or a caretaker to a room full of toys. And then you ask the caretaker to leave while they're there. There's a research assistant there. And so typically when they go into the room, they see all these toys, they get all excited, they start pointing and everything, they want to play with everything. And then start playing, You ask the caregiver to leave. And you can see it on YouTube. They still do these experiments today. Immediately, they drop everything. They crawl through their door.

45:11They're banging on their door, crying, crying, crying. And then they ask the caregiver to go back in. And they hug them. And it's in that reunion that she noticed three attachment styles. The anxious, avoidant, and secure. Anxious are kids that had a very hard time coming down after being sort of held. It took them a really long time to come down and a really long time to become where they became interested in the toys again. Secures. You see it, you can't believe it. Like they come down in seconds and immediately start pointing one to play. And then avoidance kind of like either continued to play and didn't cry or cried a little bit and stayed limp in their mother when they picked them up and didn't really show that much interest again in playing again.

45:50So this is where the attachment styles were discovered. And I'm sort of telling you about this because it's that connection between our exploratory drive and the attachment. And when attachment is pacified and we feel safe, We get curious about the world. And that's why we're only as needy as our out-of-the-needs. It's the same thing like with the children. When our attachment needs are being met, we don't care about the relationships. We're built to kind of look out world into the world and it's like, oh yeah, you're there. Like, you're not that interesting. I know you. There's all these other things in the world.

46:24I want to write. I want to paint. I want to create. But I can go back and I can tell you about what I've done and we can share things together and it becomes deeper. or if something bad happens to me, I can run to you and you can help make me feel better, but I'm not putting the focus on you.

46:43This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Amir Levine. We'll be right back. Hey, if you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do with an appropriately healthy attachment style, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all clickable and searchable at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, I encourage you to email me at jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I am more than happy to help you get that code, find that code, surface that code for you.

47:15It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Amir Levine. That is so funny because that's my kids for sure. They'll be like, daddy, scream, cry. I run out of the office. What? Nothing. Where were you? Oh, I was in my office. Oh, okay. And then they're just like playing with Legos. And I'm like, you just scream cried. I had to like throw the phone down and run out in my underwear to see what was going. But then they're fine. Or my daughter is like, get away from me. I'm watching Cocomelon or playing with a doll or playing with a tea set.

47:49But then sometimes during the day, she just wanders into my office. She needs like one hug. And then she's like, bye, that's it. No. Right, exactly. That is exactly attachment at work. And it's so much easier to see it in kids. but it's also the same in adults. It's the same system. And I think that really helps to understand, like once you give the other person, and that's what secure people are so good at, that's what avoidants don't understand. You just have to give a little bit and then you get so much freedom. But instead, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. You're like constantly like activating it.

48:25And so you're not getting the free time that you want. Yeah, it's so interesting. Basically, but it's gotta be easier with kids, like you said, right? because they don't go, I'm going to pretend that I don't need to talk to dad right now. It's just like, daddy, I need a hug. Okay. And then bye. It's just very, there's no sort of like, they're not trying to like maintain status or play hard to get consciously because they're just kids and they just need that maybe secure base in order to branch out. They just kind of need to check it and make sure it's still there. Completely. And adults need it too.

48:55And the problem is that there's not, and that's why it was so important for me to write this book because there's so much in our society, a lack of understanding and appreciation of our physiological needs, of how our brain is wired, and that we need people to depend on in order to feel independent. And people feel bad about themselves for needing that and try to work against it, but it's not going to work. You know, I think it's easier once you realize that dependency is a fact and not a choice in our behavior, a flaw in our behavior, like a lot of people think. And I think in the book, you had something called the dependency paradox, which essentially says if you want to be independent, you need to find the right person to travel down that path alongside you.

49:38Exactly. Which makes a lot of sense, given what we've talked about, right? Because if you find the wrong person, they're either going to smother you or just not be there for you. Exactly. But you need the equivalent of dad who's going to give you one hug and then you can go back to work or like send you a text once every day or so, or give you a FaceTime call while you're away on a business trip, just to make sure like, we're still here. You're there. We haven't forgotten about you. The kids love you. We're making pancakes. Bye. Exactly. It's exactly. And you have to sort of figure out what these other, and usually it doesn't really need a lot.

50:09We're not wired to need a lot. We're wired to actually need the very minimal to make us like feel comfortable enough to then venture out into the world. That's the juncture where so much relationship unhappiness, that's like the wall that often hit. It's like they don't understand that. And they just fight it and fight it and fight it. It's like they just need a little bit. And then you have to really also work on, there's so much damage that had been done over the years because they weren't there for them in a certain way. So you have to sort of overcome that. But the truth is, if they change a lot of the behaviors you're in here and now, then it's not that hard.

50:46you can really make those changes and it's easier than you think. You just have to sort of, it's a different way of thinking. It's a different way of like looking at the world and understanding relationships. You really have to understand that the wellbeing of the other person is your wellbeing. Because we're basically, once we get attached, we're like one physiological unit. And there are studies that show that people have more secure attachment. If they get a cut, it would heal faster. It really affects our very basic physiology. because we're very social, and it's very, very important. That's actually really surprising, because you hear like, oh, this has a positive health implication, but then usually the study is like, people have this attachment style on average, live X number of years longer, and you're like, okay, well, what causation is a little fuzzy, but a cut healing faster is like one of the most clear-cut examples of physical health or your immune system.

51:40Is the converse then true? Our physical health, does it suffer when we're with a partner that does not satisfy our attachment needs? Does it go backwards too? I believe so. There are studies that show that people are more secure. It just really affects them in so many different areas of their life, including the health. Even if they have like a chronic illness, like fibromyalgia, their outcome is better. They tend to have less symptoms. If they have cancer, they tend to sort of fare better. It's really, it's across the board. Because if you think about it, our social existence is one of the most prominent ways that our brain functions.

52:14And I often like to say when we have someone that we're securely, if something bad happens to us, or if we get upset, one of the most powerful ways of regulating our emotions is by getting in touch with someone who we are securely attached to. They can make us feel better in seconds. Like I said, there's no Klonopin or Xanax in the world that can work so fast. There just isn't. It's so powerful. But then also the opposite is true, is that our relationship can also lead to a huge emotional turmoil. If the persons are not in tune with us, they disappear, they don't come back, we don't know where they are, they cheat on us, they leave us, or they say we come to them and they're mean to us when we need them.

52:57It also can be a huge source of emotional discontent. So really, I think about attachment as something that lies at the base of both suffering and healing from suffering. You can go both ways. That is fascinating. And what do we attribute that to? Is that just like stress messing with our immune system or telomeres or something like that? Like if we're just always worried about somebody else, maybe we don't relax. I think it affects everything. Again, it goes back to, I always like to start by saying, this is how we feel safe. And this is how our bodies feel safe. And when we feel safe, then our immune system responds differently.

53:37Everything responds differently. Oh, there's also a lot of, I don't know if shaming's quite the right term here, but we're always told like, don't be too codependent. Don't be too reliant on other people. That's unhealthy. And I guess it could be, it just seems like you could be too dependent or too sort of needily attached to others. But it also sounds like there aren't many voices in the opposite direction like you saying, hey, no, actually healthy attachment is really, well, it's healthy. It's good for you to be, like dependency is part of our human coding, right? We've evolved this to be dependent on others, correct?

54:13Yeah, we have no other choice. It's not really a matter of our choice. It's not something that we can decide to opt out of. There's no opt-out option, not in our brain. That's where I like to go back to this whole idea that it's not really based on healthy or unhealthy. It's based on, but is it effective? Is it working for you? Or if it's not working for you? And if it's not working for you, is there a way to make it work for you? Because I've known like my mentor, my research mentor at university and his wife, they're both at the university and there were this power couple. Everyone was scared of them and they ruled everyone.

54:47They were like this all the time. She was calling him 10 times a day. She was like making sure she basically looked over his schedule. and make sure that everything that is scheduled, like that there's like a free period for him during lunchtime to go and swim and exercise. And if someone blocked it or sort of used it for something else, she would give the assistant a mouthful. Like she was on top of him all the time and they got along splendidly. And he actually is like a Nobel Prize laureate. He actually attributes his success in his career to her and her support. So were they very dependent?

55:25it? Oh my God, in a huge way. Did it work for them? Hugely, I think. So I'm not here to decide what works or what doesn't work for people and what's healthy and what's not healthy. I really, if it's working for people, then it's great. And if it's not working, then it's worth looking at what's not working and how from that understanding of how attachment physiology works, try to fix it. That's a really good takeaway, right? Because there's so much shaming of, or even self-shaming of like, you know, we do this and I don't want to tell people. So much self-shaming. Yeah. It just got to happen all the time.

55:59But if it's working for you and you're not like beating each other up or something, you know, in some sort of weird, mutually abusive relationship, then it's fine. It sounds like what you're saying. Right. But usually people where it's really working for them, they don't even talk about it. And that's the thing. Like there's so many secures in this world. They're just busy having their amazing relationships. and oftentimes what you really hear more about is the ones that are not really effective, that they're not really working out, that people are having trouble. But oftentimes there's people that are very dependent on each other and you would never hear of it because they're just busy sort of like living their lives and having an amazing time together.

56:38It's really when things start to go wrong that people try to question it, but I find that they question it from the wrong places so that they blame the dependency, but it's not the dependency that's a problem. There's something there in the diet and how they're interacting with each other that makes both parties or one party feels unsafe. And that would need to be addressed. Right. No, that definitely makes sense. Speaking of that, you mentioned earlier in your clinical work that you worked with mothers who had PTSD and their toddlers. Usually we hear about PTSD in the context of, you know, like war veterans or something like that.

57:13But I know it can happen in other cases, like maybe you get violently assaulted by somebody or something. Oh, domestic violence. Domestic violence. Okay. I was going to ask what usually caused it in the clinic, you know, because one with kids. A lot of the time was domestic violence and the fathers were no longer in the picture, but then oftentimes they're children. And so that's another thing that we worked on to really separate like, no, this is your child. And even though his father might've been abusive and violent with you, this is your child. And you can really decide on how this child is going to develop and evolve.

57:46And the fact that they're screaming or yelling or having a tantrum, doesn't really connect them to the horrible things that happened to you with their father. But it's amazing how powerful it can be. And then you help them see their child for who he is or who she is. And you may have them connect. And then again, it's that attachment paradigm where the child feels safe. So they don't scream and yell as much. And then the love comes out. And the same thing also happens in adult relationships. All of a sudden, you can put down your guard and you can let the other person in. if you sort of learn how to make each other feel safe.

58:21It's really interesting, right? Because you see how attachment styles might develop in some cases, right? Woman marries or dates man, has a child with man who's abusive, man out of the picture, child born maybe even later than that, never meets dad. But then mom is reacting to the child's yelling, screaming tantrums, which every toddler does, every baby does all the time, just because that's how they communicate. In a certain way, then the baby learns, oh, when I do this, mom retreats. And then they develop an attachment style that's maybe complimentary or somewhat based on that. And then they grow up and it's like, why am I this way?

58:57Well, your dad abused your mom. But I never even met the guy. He wasn't even in the picture. She married a nice guy 10 years later. How can that affect me? And the answer is, well, this. And that's where that therapy was so powerful. And that's why being able to break that cycle early and sort of shift it to a different trajectory. because it's so malleable, because our social brain is so malleable. And oftentimes you can really change the trajectory of a relationship between mother and child. And that's huge. That is huge. But it's the same in adults, by the way. You can still do that also for people who are adults.

59:31That's really good news. Take note of that, everybody. If you're having problems and it's caused potentially by your attachment style, therapy is a great place for you to go and maybe get this fine-tuned a little bit. you know what it reminds me a long time ago, and I want to say like over a century ago. Is this in your book, Amir? They took children away from parents because like the way to raise kids was to just basically like have them and then not see them for 10 years, like send them to boarding school or do something where they're just like off on their own. And I can't imagine that that's good for the child.

1:00:03Right. So in the book, we write about John Bowlby is actually a father of attachment theory. And then Mary Ainsworth, she discovered attachment styles because before that, in Freudian theory, they said, no, you know, the child is dependent on the mother, but only because she gives them their basic needs. She gives shelter and food and water. She breastfeeds. So that's why they become attached. And Balbi said, no, no, no, no. He observed that actually children become attached to their parents. And that's unrelated to what they're getting from them or not getting from them. It's not because they give them food or sustenance that they become attached.

1:00:40It's that it's a basic need attachment is basic need, separate and just as important as food and water. And he observed it, he worked in England, and he observed it, especially during World War II, where they sent a lot of kids and toddlers up to Northern England during the Blitz. And he saw that children, very young children, they looked after them, they fed them, but there were so many and they were so busy that they had problem developing because they didn't have that attachment. And that's where basically that insight came to him that it's actually a basic need. And that, I think, is so important to understand that it's a basic need.

1:01:20And oftentimes our society goes against that. You have to learn to love yourself before you can love someone else. No, you can't learn to love yourself before you love someone else. Like being with other people is a basic need for us, just as much as food and water. Fascinating stuff, Amir. I think this is going to help a lot of people see their relationships and see themselves much more clearly. So thank you once again for coming on the show. Really appreciate the conversation. Really insightful. I love stuff like this. You're welcome. It was great to be here and I really enjoyed it too. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with actress and former Scientologist Leah Remini.

1:01:58There's a special department in the Scientology organization. Their sole job is to go after those speaking out against Scientology. That's all they do day in, day out. One of the directives says, by L. Ron Hubbard says, find out what the person is seeking to protect and go after it. And I'm quoting now, if at all possible, utterly destroy. When you want to talk about, oh, it's like any other religion, you need to get your head out of your fucking ass and really understand what the difference is between having faith and having an organization that has a price list and has an organization dedicated solely for the utter destruction of people who leave.

1:02:42Scientology's goal is to make 80 % of the planet Scientologists. Without Scientology, there's no hope for man. And that is the extremist attitude of every Scientologist on the planet. the leader's wife has been missing for like years now. Sure, yep. What do you think happened to her? Where is she? I don't know that Shelly's alive. I don't know where Shelly is. This is David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology, chairman of the board. This is Tom Cruise's best friend. Jordan, if you had a best friend that you knew had a wife that was with him all the time, wouldn't you say, bro, I haven't seen your wife.

1:03:19Like, I need to see her. I'm starting to worry that she's in a freezer somewhere. No one's done that. I have been the only person that has ever inquired about Shelley Miscavige. To learn more about the dangers of the cult of Scientology from Leah Remini herself, check out episode 485 on The Jordan Harbinger Show. I love this practical stuff. Can't get enough. Amir is also a gem of a guy, really just a nice guy to talk to. And as we've heard, that's indicative of a secure attachment style, although who knows. All things Amir Levine will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com or ask the AI chatbot on the website.

1:03:53transcripts over there in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also our newsletter every week, the team and I dig into an older episode of the show and dissect the lessons from it. So, Hey, if you're a fan of the show and I hope you are, you want to recap of some important highlights and takeaways, or you just want to know what to listen to next. The newsletter is a great place to do that. Jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well.

1:04:21That's over at six minute networking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Milio Campo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who's interested in psychology, attachment styles, or just maybe wonders why they keep on dating the wrong type of person, definitely share this episode with them.

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