985: Lives Are at Stake in Bail Reform's Wake | Feedback Friday

23:44Basically, sorry, you had to suffer for the greater good. They think my situation was a rare outlier, but stories like mine are not as uncommon as they want to believe. And it still happened. And our lived experience still matters. I'm sure those people would feel the exact same way if it was them in those shoes, right? Sorry, we just have to suffer for the greater good. No, this is nimbyism. This is not in my backyard BS. It's like those people that say, hey, I've got dangerous people walking through my backyard and threatening me and approaching my house at all hours of the night, who are crossing the border, and everybody goes, well, you know, we're all doing the best we can.

24:22And it's like, it's my backyard that they're in, though. It's my backyard. It's my house they approach at night with a shotgun looking for food, water, and shelter, and who knows what else. It's my backyard. You live in Michigan. Of course you don't really care that much. I'm very sympathetic to that. I'm very sympathetic to that. Look, your story is very stark, and it challenges the easy narratives that justify broad legislation. What you're coming up against in those conversations is probably cognitive dissonance, maybe a lack of empathy in some cases. Most people do not like having their opinions challenged by unsettling data and not knowing what to believe.

24:58That's, it's a shame, but that's the truth. And that's true of people across the political spectrum. I'm not even talking about left right now, pro-bail, anti-bail reform. This is just a human thing and, you know, obvious flaws in that system. Right. Obviously, the only answer is to live in the grays, right? To make room for lots of different facts and realities. And can't we all accept that all laws are imperfect and have unintended consequences? Like that doesn't seem very controversial to me. But yeah, sadly, that's, I guess that's hard for a lot of people. So she goes on. I also learned something through this experience that no one really talks about.

25:32You can't actually help anyone. You can give it your best shot. But if they don't want help, if they want to live in suffering, even in absurdity, there's absolutely nothing you can do but wait for them to come to you after the worst has happened, if ever. Uh, yeah, I feel like we talk about that all the time. All the time. Constantly. Some would say a little too much, like that guy the other week who said all of our advice is always the same and easily found on Google. Shout out to that guy. Yep. This is an old feedback Friday chestnut. But yeah, obviously, I totally agree with you. There's a very real limit to what we can do for other people, especially if they're not willing.

26:06I mean, it's a tale as old as time. My situation taught me that I had to let go and let my mom drown in the consequences that she ultimately chose and wanted on some level. I'm still a diehard fan of the show and love Feedback Friday episodes. My only note would be that maybe after all of your amazing practical and Dark Jordan advice, sprinkle in that some people can't be helped. We are truly powerless sometimes. Yeah, I feel like we literally say that all the time, but I'm happy to remind people of that. Instead of frustrating me, this realization actually lifted a huge weight off of my shoulders and made me feel free for the first time in a long time.

26:44Anyway, I don't know if you can call this a positive update, but it's not the worst update. No one died, the bad guy's in jail, and we're all slowly healing. New York state has even rolled back some parts of bail reform to allow judges to consider risk in their rulings. I wonder how many people had to die before they got that memo. Sheesh. Interesting. I mean, look, that seems reasonable. There's got to be some middle ground between keeping people locked up because they're poor and making sure that an abusive arsonist murderer doesn't get out of jail before their victims get out of the hospital.

27:16Hello. Yeah. Surely we can figure that out, right? It doesn't seem that difficult. So she wraps up. Thank you for writing back to me all those years ago. You really helped me do all that was in my power in a situation I was rather powerless to control. Most of all, I felt seen at my darkest hour. Please keep doing such amazing work. I will be listening on the other side. Signed, breathing a sigh after my real-life bout with true crime. Ooh, what a letter. What a letter. Man, I got a little bit choked up there at the end, Gabe. I don't mean to make it about us, but when we hear how this show has played a role in y 'all's lives, I'm using that word, it really does mean the world to us.

27:54We're just very touched to be part of these incredibly intense experiences that you guys go through. and to know that you felt acknowledged and empowered by our response. I didn't know that at the time, but it really does mean a lot to us. I don't actually have a ton more to add here. Talked a lot during the letter. This remarkable letter also kind of speaks for itself, but we wanted to share that update with everybody and also because the story captures so many of the themes that we come back to again and again on this show. The importance of taking responsibility for life, owning your agency, finding the things you can control, and at the same time, recognizing the limit of your influence, knowing when to keep fighting, when to surrender, making room for different opinions, multiple perspectives, not settling on easy answers or ignoring data or ideas that are uncomfortable and inconvenient, dealing with trauma, watching somebody you love deal with trauma, allowing them to make terrible choices repeatedly, sometimes even potentially fatal choices.

28:48It's almost like this story was written by ChatGPT to bring to life every concept and philosophy we explore on this show. So, but I do want to say this. I am so sorry that you went through this experience. I'm sorry that your mom went through this experience. What this guy did to you is, it's so far beyond the pale. It's so extreme, so horrifying. Most people will never understand what it's like to be targeted by a psychopath in this way. And I'm just so sorry that this happened to your family. But I'm especially sorry for you personally in a lot of ways. because you had to stand by and watch your mom continue to stay with this guy when he was literally determined to kill her.

29:28And yes, that is absolutely tragic for her. She could have been murdered. In a way, part of her has been killed off, right? I mean, she's got brain damage and trauma. But she could have gotten out of it if she wanted to or at least she could have freaking tried. But you couldn't. You and your sisters and your whole family, you couldn't make her do this. You are, like you said, powerless. And that's a unique pain to be on the sidelines, to not be able to influence the person who needs to make a change to change and to not have power, really, over a system that allows monsters like this to continue hurting people.

29:59That's a recipe for a kind of sadness, a rage, a helplessness that is just awful. But it sounds to me like you moved through those feelings with a lot of grace, a ton of patience, a ton of compassion and understanding, as well as some crucial boundaries, especially during your pregnancy, and that is tremendous. You're a poster child for doing the thing we talk about all the time, which is surrendering to what's happening, inviting in the grief, working through those feelings in your own way. Sometimes when we say that, and I know we say it a lot, there's a little voice in my head going, but how?

30:33How do we explain how to do that? Do people really believe that's possible? And your letter is a case study in doing exactly that. And I'm sure it was beyond hard. I'm sure you had your moments. I'm not gassing you up like, hey, you were total Buddha. You crushed this three-year-long cycle of abuse and almost homicide. If I had been in your shoes, I would have been a mess. I would have called Sammy the bull and been like, how do I get this guy's legs broken and the message to him very, very clearly? Right. Honestly, that's not a terrible solution, I guess, to a situation like this. But overall, you did great.

31:04Hashtag Dark Jordan. Yes. Lawyer, not your lawyer, et cetera, et cetera. No, this is not legal advice. Hiring a mafia enforcer to break this man's legs and threaten his life if he comes back is not legal advice. In fact, it's the opposite of legal advice. Overall, you did great. I'm sure your sisters went through their own processes, too, and maybe those were different. And that's fair, I suppose. I also love this thing you said about recognizing that you had to let your mom live with the consequences of her decision. You know, you had to accept that staying with this maniac was what she wanted on some level.

31:34Again, I do think it's more nuanced than that. it's so hard to know what your mom did and didn't want, whether she was even capable of wanting in the way that a high functioning person is. But accepting that powerlessness at a certain point, making some peace with that, that is so profound. And it's so hard because as we also talk about a lot, that can feel a lot like giving up, but it's not giving up. You can still act. You can still hope. You can still keep the door open to your mom. You can still intervene when necessary, but knowing what you truly have control over and what you don't have control over, man, I don't know, the older I get, the more I realize how alarming it is to recognize just how little we do have control over in life.

32:15I think that's wisdom. So I'm not surprised that you felt liberated by that. You said you felt like you shrugged off a huge burden. It actually makes me wonder how much of the heaviness we tend to feel in very stressful situations. You know, how much of that is about the stressful situation itself and how much of it is about the belief that we hold, that we can control it, that we have to control it. I don't know. That's just something I want to sit with and think about, especially as I go through this manhunt or cat hunt for Drake, because it's like, I can only do so much. And so much of it is just a big question mark, you know?

32:47Yeah. I feel you, man. And like you said, you still act, you still try, you don't give up, but you can also take on more responsibility than is actually helpful. Sometimes that responsibility is just, it's just not yours. And I'm speaking more about forcing someone to save themselves from a literal predator than finding your cat, of course, but I'm sure that idea applies in some way to both. Man, what a thing your mom put you through. Once somebody says you're doing this to your children, how do you not wake up from that? Let's say you value yourself at zero. Don't you value your kids and your grandkids?

33:18What? Like, I just can't wrap my mind around this. I'm glad it's all over for now anyway. I hope this guy doesn't somehow get out early to overcrowding or whatever and come back for your mom. I doubt it, given what he's done. I really hope this is over for you guys. Try to protect your mom however you can, especially now that you know she's so compromised. I would make sure you know when his parole hearings are and show up to those with a statement about how he tried to kill your mom and kept coming back and burned down the house and yada. Because the parole board, they might go, oh, domestic violence, arson, okay.

33:52But if you come in and you're like, this man has tried to kill our whole family so many times, they might be like, ugh, letting this guy out? Where's that weed dealer? Let's let that guy out. He's, you know, come on. This stuff matters. I also hope this dude doesn't write her from prison every day like, I'm so sorry. And then 10 years later when he gets out early again due to overcrowding, she picks him up and they start this BS all over again. I would just try to stay close to your mom. Keep reminding her of how much better off she is without him in her life. And thank you for sharing your story with us, with all of us.

34:21We are very relieved for you. We're super proud of you, sending you, your mom, and your sisters a big hug and wishing you all the peace and healing that you deserve. You know what else is burning the house down, Gabriel? The deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

34:53Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work in a big company where we do some lobbying and public affairs for our employer. Some years ago, we were concerned about an environmental regulation that could become too strict. My boss started to gather some documentation and raised questions that were legitimate in a scientific debate. Then, COVID struck, and she started discussing the efficacy of vaccines, the real severity of COVID, and the fact that all of the lockdowns were organized by big pharma. Now she talks about the fact that countries have no real power and that everything is organized by the United Nations, which is a tool for private interests, namely Bill Gates and BlackRock.

35:37Then, a month ago, she showed me a post on Twitter about children being sex trafficked in a synagogue. When I asked her what the sources were, she said that newspapers are muted and not allowed to cover this kind of news. She shared this, by the way, even though she knows I'm Jewish. I'm no doctor, but I have an autistic child myself, and I suspect that my boss has undiagnosed autism. This makes her make some very inappropriate remarks, but it also gives her a dedication to every detail that makes her a very respected professional in our field. What should I do here? How can I state that I don't agree with my boss's conspiratorial claims?

36:16Signed, trying to clap back when my boss talks smack without catching flack for an attack on her lack of facts. Interesting. All right. Well, we've taken letters about conspiratorial friends, conspiratorial partners, conspiratorial family members, but I don't think we've ever heard about how to deal with a conspiratorial boss. So this is a tricky one because first of all, the power dynamics between an employee and a boss are already complicated. If you clap back at her like, hey, your sources are crap. Your opinions are dodgy. Don't share this nonsense bullshit with me. That couldn't obviously infect your working relationship.

36:49She could turn on you. She could view you as one of the, you're one of the sheeple buying into mainstream nonsense. She could withdraw some of her support or respect for you, which is a risk. Also, it sounds clearly she struggles with reading the room. And that might not entirely be her fault to your earlier point. Obviously, I have no idea if she's on the spectrum. But based on what you've shared, she probably struggles with social cues, with consistently empathizing with people, and possibly a slight sprinkle of anti-Semitism. It's hard to say, but you never know. So what feels personal and loaded, it might just be her getting pumped about these zany ideas and just not realizing how they come across to other people, which does not make it okay.

37:30But it does make it somewhat understandable and not as personal as it feels. But then you guys work in lobbying, public affairs. It sounds like you're dealing with nuanced issues that don't have simple answers, like that environmental regulation. and those topics do deserve a certain degree of skepticism and independent thinking, which your boss is clearly willing to engage in. Now, being skeptical in a healthy way, that's obviously different from straight-up conspiratorial thinking. The former is principled and rigorous and has some kind of standards and has some guardrails. The latter, you know, it's reckless, it's fuzzy, it's chaos.

38:05It's these rabbis that are pedophiles based on some post on frickin' Twitter with zero evidence as opposed to, hmm, okay, this whole narrative around how lockdowns were necessary, that isn't as black or white as the government said before, the data's mixed, school closures, yada, yada, totally different conversations. But I can also appreciate a boss in this space who's not super eager to buy into easy answers or mainstream narratives, because that might, in fact, be part of effective lobbying and managing public affairs. And to your point, it might also be part of why she's so good at it, her dedication to every detail.

38:37It's probably, in some ways a superpower. Although that's one of the ironies of the story, right? She's obsessive about details at work. She's so thorough. But then when it comes to stories about pedophiles and big pharma and private interests, she doesn't seem as rigorous about the sources. She's being, sounds like willfully blind to the specifics, which is precisely what conspiracy theorists do. Yeah, it's a strange contradiction. You don't usually find those two tendencies in the same person. Right, right. But that's got to speak to a part of her that wants to buy into this stuff, Right, yeah.

39:07Makes her feel smarter or something like that. Or she finds community in it and she's otherwise lonely because she's kind of a weirdo who can't read the room, right? So who knows really why this is, whether it's her personal history or values or just because she finds the stuff entertaining. So look, if this were your friend, your partner, your parent, my advice would be to ask them open, curious, nonjudgmental questions and slowly get them to consider all the reasons they hold these beliefs. But because this is your boss, a person who holds power over you, who has a unique relationship with you, which means you have less stakes and less responsibility to change her mind, in my opinion, and also somebody who doesn't seem particularly open to changing her mind, I'm actually leaning towards the opposite course of action here.

39:48My feeling is that your boss's opinions are kind of none of your business. And you have more to gain by not engaging with her on this type of stuff. Now, the hard part is that she's making it your business by showing you fricking crapola about pedo rabbis and how Bill Gates invented COVID-19 or whatever. And I'm sure that's hard for you, both as a responsible employee and as a Jewish person who's being shown just clearly anti-Semitic nonsense. It's really hard when somebody in a position of authority says stuff that's distasteful, irresponsible, sometimes even hurtful. So I'm not saying you don't have good reasons to want to speak up.

40:23I'm just saying that on a practical level, I'm just not sure it's worth it. What I would do instead is just basically ignore it, draw some respectful boundaries around your time, and I'd pin that on work rather than on your personal beliefs. So for example, if you guys are in a meeting about a new lobbying initiative and she goes, oh, by the way, did you see that post on X about how Pfizer executives funded a lab in Wuhan that invented the virus so they could prop up their stock price because three of the board members are Jews and they play golf with Bill Gates and the lizard people, something, whatever?

40:52I would just be like, wow, crazy. But listen, I got a lot of work to do. I really want to make sure I get this done for you. So let's close the loop on the lobbying stuff. And then I am going to go back to my office and put my head down. That's harder for her to argue with. And it'll communicate to her that your top priority at work at the office is actually, you know, doing work. What a concept, right? You're not shutting down the conversation because you disagree. You're shutting it down because you're disciplined. Just make sure you don't like roll your eyes and put a little judgy stank on that script if you use it.

41:21Not that she would pick up on that. but you gotta resist the urge to blend in the subtext. Just keep it neutral, keep it professional. But if this ever becomes untenable for you, or if your boss ever tips over into something more problematic, like you realize she just actually doesn't like Jews, she's anti-Semitic, she's openly denigrating Jewish people in meetings or attacking you in some way, then I'd consider speaking up, either addressing it directly with her or talking to HR about it and document all this stuff. If she sends you a text and it's like, Jewish rabbi sex trafficking, screenshot, put it in an album on your phone, be done with it.

41:54Email comes in about this, and by the way, have you seen this COVID night screenshot or take a picture of your computer screen on your personal phone, not on work equipment, and save it, and just file it, and then if you check at the end of the year when she's finally going full kook and you got 400 screenshots in there, now you got a case. Talk to HR about it. It's a different problem. I'm not sure you're there yet. Dodge this stuff. That's your best bet. It takes a lot of grace and discipline to do, and you're probably gonna have to do some heavy breathing in the break room. sometimes, but it's worth it.

42:22Good luck. And yeah, we'll see you at our annual lizard people, Jewish Illuminati meeting inside the hollow earth. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your brother is obsessed with goats. That one last week, Gabriel, that was so good. It was bad. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

42:54We're here to help and we keep every email. Nimbus. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm 33 years old and I'm currently fighting stage four cancer. This is actually my second time with cancer. Oh man, 33 years old. That's rough. So sorry. When I was a young 20 something, I took out two school loans at 14.75 % and 14.25 % interest rates, and I can't afford them. I have many regrets. Then recently, I was denied total and permanent disability by my student loan provider, Sally May, and their third party, Minnesota Life, because I work. But I work because I want to keep my insurance. They have a program that pays for 100 % of my meds, and the meds normally cost$4 ,000 a month.

43:46Also, it would take two years to get on government insurance, which would be a death sentence for me. Plus, I can work. I hear that I need to get a lawyer to fight a battle with Sally May, which will take at least two years, and to not give up on this while also fighting for my life. I'm hopeful about finding a program that helps cancer patients afford attorneys, but I'm feeling overwhelmed. I just want to have this heavy financial load off my shoulders. I'm feeling frustrated with uber-capitalism. These loan companies can do sketchy stuff and get away with it. They've had many lawsuits and lost cases, but they're still in business.

44:23Why don't private student loan providers have to provide programs for repayment for people with disabilities who don't qualify right away for permanent or total disability loan forgiveness? Why are private loan companies not regulated? What should I do? Signed, Looking for Answers, While I Battle Two Cancers. Listen, you godless communists. No, man, this is seriously, what a letter. And what a thing you're going through. Let me start by saying I am so sorry you're going through cancer again, by the way, and that you're in this absolutely awful position of having to choose between taking care of your health and taking care of debt, which, by the way, I can't believe that those loans are 14 plus percent interest.

45:01I feel like back in the day, mine were at least 10 percent lower than that. I think I had a three something and maybe a five something together, and I had a lot of debt. And it's shocking that they can make student loan interest rates as high as my credit card. It's just unbelievable. It's insane. I don't mean to get into politics here, but hearing your story, it's just hard not to comment on the state of this country. And to be fair, the dark side of capitalism everywhere, even though I am, to be clear, a big believer in it is the single best engine for upward mobility in history. Capitalism, that is.

45:34But the fact that there are people out there who have to choose between getting their life saving medication for cancer and not going bankrupt insane is literally insane. Yeah. And it is not okay. And our Canadian Joe fans and our European listeners are just every time they hear something like this, they're just blown away when they hear how much ambulance rides cost or how much medication costs out of time. It's just it's wild and it's not getting better. That's the that's the other problem. Yeah. No one's doing much about it. Yeah. Those listeners are shaking their heads right now as the image of a dumpster fire with a with a bald eagle flying over it plays in their mind, no doubt.

46:08No kidding. And I'm not necessarily getting on a soapbox for socialized medicine or student loan forgiveness. I actually have quite a few opinions on that that might surprise you. All of these solutions have their upsides and their very real downsides. So when we take a letter like this, it just makes the impact of this stuff so vivid. And my heart absolutely breaks for people, especially hardworking people like our friend here, who have to fight stage four cancer and work a full-time job and keep Sally frickin' May off their back so their wages are going to get garnished and their credit score is going to tank.

46:41This is late capitalism in a nutshell. It's just sort of horrifying to see this. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to defer these loans. In fact, it's also criminal, the interest rate, but I kind of already covered that. And I know you're not asking for a pity party, and I appreciate that, but my God, the things you are going through right now. So first of all, I don't know why student loan companies aren't better regulated. I don't know why they don't offer accommodations for certain disabilities, like, you know, fighting cancer for your life. Maybe John Oliver knows the answer. That's a topic he'd rail on for 20 minutes until we forget about it and move on to the next horror show.

47:16What I do know is that you have to work with what you've been given, you have to prioritize, and you got to do one thing at a time. So the first order of business, if you can't hit pause on the debt and you truly can't get on government insurance immediately, you got to prioritize your health. Cancer before Sally Mae, obviously, because if you make decisions at the expense of your health, what is the point? Your job right now is to get healthy, to stick around on earth instead of under it as long as possible. So that either means keeping your job and having to continue paying these loans as best you can, or it means quitting your job and getting on government insurance and getting a moratorium on the debt.

47:53I am a little surprised to hear that it would take two years to get on government insurance. I know those programs can be a hot mess, but I would triple confirm that that's really the case because that sounds insane to me. I have friends who've gotten government healthcare. They have to pick up the phone and advocate for themselves all the time, but they were able to get on pretty quickly and get care. Maybe I'm being naive. I don't know. But then I'd rather you have private insurance through your company and you said you can work. and I wonder if working is also giving you some much needed structure, community, distraction through all this.

48:25So those are other good reasons to go that route. Second, I would definitely go the lawyer route and fight Sally Mae on this. I hate that this would be another expense, but I do wonder if there are attorneys who specialize in this. Maybe they got the template they send to student loan companies ready to go. Maybe they know exactly what to say, how to say it, which department it's gotta be said to and it actually wouldn't cost you all that much. I don't know. I want to see you stick it to these predatory companies that don't have a freaking checkbox on their website for, sorry, bro, I'm fighting stage four cancer.

48:55I need an extension or maybe a deferral or whatever they call it. I can't believe it. Right. Also, a lawyer might be able to advise you on whether it'd be possible to discharge this debt possibly through bankruptcy. I really hope it doesn't come to that. But we've been talking about bankruptcy a lot on the show recently because we got a lot of letters about it. It is an option. Now, that used to be really hard, but we did some reading on this and those student loan reforms that the Biden administration recently made. So one of the big initiatives was making it easier for borrowers who are experiencing hardship to discharge their student loans in bankruptcy.

49:26Now, unfortunately, it's not as easy as saying, hey, I have stage four cancer, so I can't pay. Apparently, you would need to engage in an adversarial proceeding, which is basically a lawsuit against the student loan company where you would have to prove that you're experiencing what's called undue hardship, which, by the way, is an extremely difficult standard to meet. we read up on that too. The criteria for undue hardship are A, demonstrating an inability to maintain a minimal standard of living, B, persistent financial difficulties, and C, a good faith effort to repay the loans, which you might be able to prove with an attorney's help, although keeping your job, I don't know, that might already disqualify you from this option because you're not, you know, on the street, living in your car, in massive credit card debt or whatever, but you could be.

50:13And you have been paying these loans faithfully up till now, which counts for something. But then we all know these lenders have a lot of power. They have a ton of resources. So I'm afraid you will have to prepare for a fight. On the bright side, though, toward the end of last year, the Justice Department released some data on these cases. And they said that of the ones that were resolved, 99 % of them ended in either a full or a partial discharge. Now, the question, of course, is how many of these cases actually end up getting resolved? Right. And while you do all that, I would consider starting a GoFundMe to help raise some money.

50:48And again, don't get me started on what it says about our system that a person with a full-time job needs to start a freaking crowdfunding campaign to stay alive. This pitch breaks my heart, but people do it all the time and it does work. Even if you raise four, five, eight grand, it could be huge for you because what is that, a two-month buffer on your medication, as they said in the letter, according to the pricing each month. If you do this, I'd take the time to really tell your story in the campaign description, maybe make a little video, post it. You basically want to say, hi, I have to work to keep my medication.

51:20I can work, I'm happy to work, but I'm somehow in this impossible situation where I have to decide whether to quit my job and go on government insurance so I don't die from cancer, or keep working and have my money go straight to Sally Mae at a frankly exorbitant interest rate so I'm humbly and gratefully opening myself up to your help. I've had a few friends over the years do this, and I always gladly donate it. I hate that it comes to this, but it is an option, and you have a very compelling story to tell. She does. And speaking of your compelling story, I would also approach, you know, taking a cue from Q1 here, a few journalists and see if they would be interested in covering your story.

51:55I know this isn't exactly news. People have been talking about the student loan crisis for a while now, but hanging an article about the horrors of the student loan situation on a story like this, I think that would make it extremely interesting and relevant to people. Seriously, it doesn't get much more sympathetic than this. It's not like, oh, I was an art major and I took out$200 ,000 for the loans and I can't find a job. Wham, never going to buy a house. This is like, I'm literally dying. This is not my fault. And you want three out of my$4 ,000 a month because of interest payments? Like, get bent.

52:26Your story makes these loan companies look like, frankly, total bastards. Horrible. It's just a horrifying example of what's gone wrong. And maybe your attorney can use an article that gets written about you to force the student loan providers to take this seriously and respond immediately. So I would send a few brief pitches to a handful of reporters who have written about the student loan crisis before. See what they say. They might also, by the way, have ideas or resources for how to fight back because they're plugged in and they know what's up. Right. These journalists know this world inside and out.

52:56They tend to be well connected. My last thought for you is this. I know this debt is very real. The hit to your bank account is very real, but it's not as real as cancer. So again, prioritize your health above all else, physical and mental. Do not log in and check your Sallie Mae balance every three days. That's gonna drive you nuts. Do what you have to do and then tuck it away. Keep coming back to what you need to do, what matters most, which is obviously getting well and staying alive. Again, I am deeply sorry you're in this boat. It makes me incredibly angry. This is the kind of story that really gives urgency to voting and calling your congressman and stuff like that, you've been dealt a really crappy hand and you don't deserve it.

53:34But in a situation like this, you can only do what you can do and you keep showing up and you keep taking care of yourself. We're sending you a huge non-dischargeable hug and we are rooting for you every step of the way. You know, if this were me, your ass ain't getting paid until I'm well. You know, you better hope I get well because if I croak, you're never getting a dime. These companies act like getting cancer is the same as somebody who can't stop shopping online for handbags or something. It's like, hey, you should have budgeted for this. What are you talking about? It's so bad that it's almost hard to believe there's not somebody at Sally Mae who's like, no, no, no.

54:07My job is to decide if this person should get a deferral or not. And cancer is like on like medical stuff is at the top of the list. I almost feel like it just has to be that way. I mean, isn't this why people are up in arms about this industry? I mean, I know nothing significant seems to be happening, but like the rage against student loan providers has never been higher. And, you know, the Biden administration has made a big thing out of this, these student loan reforms. And I know people are critical of them and it's complicated. And some people think that's not the right approach. I don't know enough about it to opine on that.

54:38But I mean, I get it. I get why people are trying to reach for solutions wherever they can find them, because people like this are suffering because they don't have a simple option to give you nine months so that you can stay alive. It's crazy. Yeah. This person's not even asking for her loans to be forgiven. She just is like, hey, can I maybe not pay this until I get rid of cancer? Exactly. Because the interest rate is making it so I can't pay for my chemotherapy. It's like, how is that even remotely controversial? Like if you, there should literally be a form you file to make this possible. It's unbelievable.

55:09You know, it's more fun than navigating the Byzantine bureaucracy of American healthcare, Gabriel, enjoying the fine products and services that support this show. I got to say, Jordan, that bar, that bar is very low. Oh, yeah. It's unlike Sally Mae's interest rates. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place. JordanHarbinger.com slash deals.

55:40If you can't remember the name of the sponsor, you can't find the code, shoot me an email, Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com. I am happy to surface the code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Hi, Gabe and Dark Jordan. So when people address us like that, does that mean they only want to hear from Dark Jordan? No light, you know, legal above board appropriate Jordan advice? No, I think it means they want the most psycho advice you can possibly give them. Good. All right. I'm here for it. Although, actually, I don't think that this really will apply to this letter.

56:15So it's funny that he wrote that. Bummer. But anyway, he writes, I recently invented, for lack of a better term, an object which doesn't serve much functional purpose, but is really funny to behold. My prototypes have been met with nothing but boisterous laughter at how ridiculous and silly it is. It's a for novelty purposes only kind of thing that you would see at Spencer's. Okay, Spencer's, for anyone who doesn't know, is a novelty store that sells, like, gag gifts. Right, it's the place you go when you forgot to buy somebody a gift and you have to be at their party in, like, an hour. Exactly.

56:46Or you don't know them very well, or you don't like them that much, so you buy them a, I don't know, like a pen that shocks you, or a rubber chicken, or something like that. So he goes on, I could absolutely sell these and make money, but this is a simple object that could be easily copied, so I'd like to have some level of legal protection, though my faith in enforcing it is low. I have a moral dilemma with this as well because of the plastic involved in making the thing. How do I approach an IP attorney with this idea without looking insane? If they don't laugh, Is that a bad sign? Does the world really need more plastic trash that serves no functional purpose?

57:22Or is being a funny product that brings people joy purpose enough, even if I know it'll end up in a landfill at some point? Signed, The Conflicted Creator, wondering whether to cater to appreciators, when one day my product will probably end up in a crater. Ooh, good questions. First of all, I do think it's very cool you invented a product, even if it is like a penis-shaped straw for bachelorette parties or whatever. What do you call that, a strildo? I don't know. I'm always amazed when people invent something. It's just so, it's interesting. It shows a lot of initiative and creativity, and you're actually getting good feedback just in the form of these laughs, which is very much the point, and that's gotta feel good.

58:03And the fact that you're confident you can sell these things and make some money, I think that's brilliant, dude. I mean, who knows? This could be a very real side hustle. It could even become your main hustle at some point. This is how these things start, right? So yes, definitely talk to an IP attorney about patenting your product and or trademarking your brand. I wouldn't worry about looking insane because of the product itself. These attorneys have helped clients with all kinds of products. Yours might not even be the craziest. Remember, somebody invented the pocket p***y. You're there to talk to them about a business and money.

58:36You're paying them. They're gonna be psyched for the work. They're not going to judge you for your silly product. And no, I don't necessarily think it's a bad sign if they don't laugh. God knows, lawyers, we're not exactly known for our sense of humor and or personality at all, right? I could see a competent IP attorney being super dry and literal about all this and taking good care of you. So it's not a deal breaker. It's more like if you're going to have to interact with your lawyer a lot and talk about the ins and outs of the product for hours over the course of years, you might want to work with somebody who has a little bit of personality just because it's more enjoyable.

59:05although if your lawyer is going to be an integral part of the business and super involved in the launch of your company, maybe them laughing is kind of a signal of how much they appreciate your vision and how invested they are in your ideas of how much vision do you have for, well, you know, on that level, maybe look for lawyers who appreciate what you've invented. That's always a plus. But I wouldn't write off a good lawyer if he doesn't double over laughing at your breast-shaped pillow or whatever, which is a real thing, by the way, that you can get at those novelty stores, which I just looked up because I was curious, not because I own three of them in different colors, but because they're funny.

59:41No, no, no. Uh-huh. We got it. Yeah. Those are Gabe's favorite pillows when he stays over. No, totally. Can't get a good night's rest at Jordan's house without a, without a polyester nipple in my ear. Now about the plastic thing, I really do appreciate that you're being thoughtful about that. I mean, we all should. There's definitely something to be said for being conscientious about the things we put out into the world. But my feeling there is, look, if you can do anything to minimize the amount of plastic that this product requires, I would do that. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the problem, but every bit helps, right?

1:00:11You're clearly a clever guy. You know, maybe you can figure out the minimum amount of plastic you need to manufacture this thing, and that'll help you sleep at night. And I hear you that this thing serves no functional purpose. But in another way, it does. It fulfills the function of making people laugh, of bringing them together, of helping somebody say, I don't Hey, I love you, but I absolutely didn't think about what to get you for your birthday. So here's a lobster bib with Steve Buscemi's face on it or whatever. I don't know what it is you invented. I have no idea. I'm so curious what he made, Jordan.

1:00:41I really do wonder. I don't know. I'm grasping at straws. Oh, yeah. Well, indeed. Penis-shaped straws. Strildos, if you will. Exactly. Grasping at strildos. New Feedback Friday catchphrase. So does the world need more plastic trash that serves no profound purpose? Probably not. The world doesn't need a lot of things. the last Avatar movie, I would argue, among other things. But the waste that your company is going to create, it's kind of a drop in the ocean, isn't it? And I know that mentality is kind of flawed. We all have to do our part. But not putting your product out there isn't going to stop landfills from filling up with plastic.

1:01:15Not at this stage of your company. You were very small operation at this point. And I think you have more to gain by putting a really cool thing out into the world and seeing if there's a real business here than by not doing it at all for environmental reasons at this stage. Anyway, I agree. I love his thoughtfulness, but he's literally a guy shipping a couple hundred units of, I don't know, like a tiny doll or something. Meanwhile, Coca-Cola is selling tens and tens of billions of bottles and cans every year. So it's like, what are we, what are we talking about here? So I say, go for it, man.

1:01:43The world needs laughter too, more than teeth rotting soda, I'd argue, but definitely keep being as thoughtful and responsible as you can along the way. You can do both of these. Maybe you could be the world's first sustainable strildo, you know? And good luck. Send us a couple sustainable bags full of your product when you can as well. I would love to see what you're up to. I bet he would. Jordan could use a new pocket. So, please do send this. Mine has a lot of miles on it after all. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much.

1:02:14Don't forget to check out our episode with Susan Casey on Ocean Stuff. All things Ocean. Super interesting. And stay tuned this Sunday, Skeptical Sunday coming up on Porn. Internet porn specifically, but I don't know how specific we need to get. Is there any other kind of porn these days? Probably not. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. It is not gross. It is not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

1:02:44The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Every time I talk with people about this, it's like, oh, I know you say it every time. I should do it. Just dive in and do the first couple. Just the first one or the second one will be life-changing enough for you and it'll get you in there and it won't take a ton of time. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. 6minutenetworking.com. See you on the subreddit. Many of you are there discussing the episodes. Jordan Harbinger is the name of the subreddit. If you don't know what a subreddit is, never mind.

1:03:14But definitely check out our newsletter. In any case, jordanharbinger.com slash news. Gabe and I are experimenting with different formats there. we dive into old episodes, deliver some wisdom from those episodes that you can apply in your life. And it's once a week, not too much of a lift. Jordan Harbinger dot com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan Harbinger dot com slash deals. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. Gabe's also on Instagram, Twitter. Are you on LinkedIn? I don't even know. Does it matter?

1:03:45No one cares. The show is associated with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Sometimes my advice is actually illegal. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. For example, if you know somebody who is dealing with a domestic abuse situation and they can't get the other person out and they're banging their head against the wall, I think Q1 from this week's episode is definitely something you could share with them.

1:04:22There's a lot of takeaways from that, and I think it would be very helpful for other people in that situation. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night it was i was at a magic convention in wales i was wearing a three piece of velvet suit because why not because why not so this guy is you know he's really drunk and he's uh clearly yeah looking for a fight and he is with his girlfriend and he's all his adrenaline is kind of you know up here and he starts shouting at me and says something like what are you looking at or what's your problem or something in that situation you can't respond with oh i'm not looking at anything because then you're on the back foot and they've got power or yeah I'm looking at you what's your problem because either way you're going to get hit but you can just not play that game right from the outset so I said the wall outside my house isn't four foot high so his reaction to that is a bit of a pause he's like what and I said oh the wall outside my house isn't four foot high when I lived in Spain the walls there were quite high but here they're Tiny, I mean, nothing.

1:05:39So he then, he just went, oh, fuck, and started crying. His girlfriend walked off, and he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. There'd been some fight, and weirdly, then I'm giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing, and he's an artist, and he used to walk home from his studio late at night through a rough bit of London. And there were always these kind of, like, gangs on one side of the road, so he'd always cross over away from them. Of course, they'd always see that, and it was always this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating thing.

1:06:13So we spoke about it, and then the next night, he crossed over the road to them and said, good evening, as he walked past them. And of course, they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange... Yeah, I don't know. He's crazy. He's just weird. Who wants to see a magic trick? For an inside look at the levers in our own brain, alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists, check out episode 150 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a great new podcast can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack.

1:06:48Let me save you some hassle. Check out Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers. Every episode is packed with fascinating insights that you can actually use. Mike interviews top experts on topics that shape your life, like how to optimize your brain chemistry, the best and worst ways to apologize, probably could have used that recently, why couples hate to talk about money. No matter the topic, Mike asks the questions you'd want to ask, getting straight to the good stuff, and the conversations are always engaging, always insightful, guaranteed to leave you a little smarter than before.

1:07:13They've got thousands of five-star reviews, but do you even need that? I'm recommending it. You don't need other people's opinion, right, at this point, I would hope. Anyway, give it a listen. Just search for Something You Should Know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening to Something You Should Know.