Financial Influencers on Wealth and Work

0:06Earlier this month, we held our very first live taping of the Journal podcast in New York. It was a great night. We met some of our listeners and rocked out to our theme music.

0:27We had so much fun. At the event, I recorded a conversation with a panel of financial social media influencers. Today, we're sharing it with you. You can watch the interview on Spotify.

0:45All right. Give it up one more time for some of today's biggest financial influencers, Mrs. Dow Jones, Your Rich BFF, and The Points Guy. One more time.

0:58So tonight, we're going to be talking to our wonderful guests about building wealth in this economy. Lots to talk about there, but I just want to give everybody a little bit of a formal introduction. Let me start with Haley, Haley Sacks. as most people know you, Mrs. Dow Jones. Haley is a native New Yorker. She launched her YouTube account in 2017. It took off because of the way she makes financial advice fun for millennials to start with, but now also for Gen Z. And her spreadsheets and quizzes are super popular with people who want help navigating their finances. Hey, Haley. Thank you for being here.

1:33Thanks for having me.

1:37We've also got, of course, your rich BFF, Vivian Tu. She's the daughter of immigrants, and she used to work on Wall Street, but now she's focused on making social media content using her expertise to help everyday people build wealth, which we're going to be talking a lot about tonight. She also has her own podcast. She's written two books, and she has all the advice you need on how to get rich. Vivian, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. And last but very much, not the least, kind of the OG financial influencer. So the Points Guy, Brian Kelly, started the Points Guy in 2010, is why I'm using OG.

2:14His site has since evolved into a massive media platform that teaches people how to get rewarded for using credit. He's got a ton of tips on how to make the most of those rewards. Brian, welcome. We've got a lot to get into. Live from the Gramercy Theater, welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Jessica Mendoza. Coming up on the show, a conversation about building wealth in today's economy.

2:59So I've got a bunch of questions for y 'all, but I want to start with a little icebreaker. Got these little paddles. Ooh.

3:09Y 'all have heard of this game, right? Never have I ever. It's an icebreaker, so we're not playing for prizes or anything, just some ragging rights, and you can keep the paddle. It's a good fare. Brian's going to give us points if we wish. That would be amazing. But so I have a list of prompts, and it's everyday money habits or money moves that maybe we wouldn't necessarily want to do all the time, but I think a lot of us, I certainly have, have done at least once or twice or a few times. So I'll go down the list and it's, yeah, if you've done it, then you say I have. If you've never done it, then it's never.

3:43And we'll just chat about it a little bit. Okay, first up, never have I ever forgotten to cancel an unused subscription. Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely. Do you have any... How about you guys? Do you... Yeah, yeah. Of course. What, uh, what subscriptions? I mean, I had a cable box that I just continued to pay the$25 fee on instead of returning it for months because I couldn't bother to go to the cable box to play, like, the Verizon store. I have to drive. I have to go. You know, I think, listen, I don't think it's because we don't know better. I think it's because life gets busy. Yeah. Definitely. I just got one from Best Buy.

4:24I'm like, I didn't buy anything at Best Buy in the last several years. And it's like your AppleCare from your Apple Watch 4. And I'm like, this thing I gave away two years ago and I'm still paying this yearly subscription on it. And by the way, your credit card will often cover iPhone loss. So generally don't even buy these warranties. I hope y 'all are taking notes. Shame on me. What about you, Hailey? Oh my gosh. I think during the pandemic, especially, I was paying for Rent the Runway for many, many, many months after I was like in the pants. You can pause it. Yeah, nope, didn't pause, just like fully.

4:57And that's a big one. Yeah. So, you know. Okay, next up. Never have I ever added something to my cart to get free shipping.

5:09Oh, we have a never. Really? Wow. That's really impressive. But I've added it to the cart for other reasons. For other reasons. Yes. I don't think that free shipping was top of mind. Pretty sure. But maybe you got it anyway. Yes, exactly. It might have been because I wanted it. Yeah. All right. One more. This one's interesting because some of y 'all have talked about this on your TikToks and videos, but never have I ever used a buy now, pay later service. Never. Never. Yeah. And I will say it's getting trickier though. So credit cards now, they'll say, as you use your credit card now, do you want to put this like no interest for two years?

5:48And I actually asked my friend at the credit card company, I'm like, why are you pushing this free financing? I got to pay my bills. And the goal is if you ever miss one payment, you then owe everything times two. It's like a huge, huge windfall. So it might seem like, oh yeah, I'll just put this, but they will catch you if you trip at all. So don't, if it seems too good to be true. It probably is. Yeah, always a good lesson. Well, thank you all for doing this. But okay, I'm really excited to get into these questions with you all. And I'm sure everybody's excited to hear them. So Vivian, your financial advice tends to have a core message, which is that people don't just need to think about getting rich, but about building wealth.

6:27Can you talk about that distinction and why it's important? Yeah, I think, listen, the moniker Your Rich BFF is a fun, splashy one that really is memorable. But at the end of the day, like, the point of, like, getting rich and then blowing it all on the lime green Lamborghini, I promise you, very sexy, very fun for maybe the first, like, 30 minutes you're driving it. But that doesn't bring you this overarching contentment and joy in your life. and I truly do believe that. I think if you take a true step back, the true happiness comes from stability. It comes from feeling like you don't need to wonder if the roof over your head, the food on your table, or any of these basic things that you need is going away for any reason.

7:07It allows you to make decisions out of a place of bravery and abundance versus desperation and scarcity. So it's not enough just to have the money come in the door. The Ben Franklin saying is true. You have to actually hold on to the penny and you have to save it because when you're able to do that, you can architect a life that you want versus just buying it on stuff that you probably will forget about in a couple months' time. Yeah. A lot of nods on the couch. Yes. We're like, preach. And actually, a related question for you, Haley. One thing you talk about a lot is building generational wealth in particular.

7:39We saw your lovely goddaughter on the screen a little bit earlier. Zia Copernicus. What's her name? Zia Copernicus Lake Yellen. I love it. Her father is an artist. You'll set her up well for whatever she wants to do, it sounds like. Yeah, she can do whatever she wants. Richer than me. But one thing is, like, everybody starts from a different financial place, right? So how do you account for that when you give your advice? I would say the first thing you have to do to start building generational wealth is put your own oxygen mask on first. Because if you, you know, focus so much on your child and you don't care about your own finances, then they're going to have to take care of you, which creates this really bad cycle.

8:21And so I always say that, like, it's very flashy to show the numbers. Compounding is so exciting. If you put aside a small amount of money every month for your child in the stock market, by the time they're 60, they're going to have millions of dollars. It's, you know, thrilling. But you as the parent have to make sure that you're saving for your own retirement, putting money aside. I love that oxygen mask. It really is like a very resonant image. And one more thing for Vivian. You also talk about generational wealth, in particular as it ties to your own story and your identity. I'm Filipino. Do we have any Filipinos in the crowd?

9:00This is New York. There's got to be at least one, right? Okay. Well, I'm interested on your thoughts on that. Like, what role do culture or identity, what role do they play in the advice that you give? I think it's a core part of my message and why so many, like, first-gen, second-gen immigrants love my content is because they've never heard the financial conversation, but, oh, by the way, you know, your tia is calling you and needs a small business loan of$50 ,000. They've never heard the advice of, oh, but by the way, my parents' retirement plan is me. They've never heard the advice of, oh, but there's, you know, filial piety.

9:44There's obligations. There's this Chinese phrase called yin gai, which directly translates to, like, you should. And so I think there is this heavy burden placed on so many of the children of these families to break some of those generational bad habits to actually then be able to build wealth for themselves, as Haley mentioned, own oxygen mask on first. then also to help their parents out. I think even when I was building out my own estate plan and I did this right before, you know, my husband and I got married, after I did mine, I went and turned to my parents and I said, okay, I think we should put together an estate plan.

10:22And you would have thought I personally went and put a hit out on my dad, the way he reacted. He was like, you think I'm going to die next week. And I was like, that's not even a little bit close to what I said, but But like, I am now educating my parents on things that they never got the chance or the privilege of learning about. And that's like the greatest honor of my life. And it's wonderful that you're able to share that advice and that message to so many. Yeah. Brian, talking about generations, not to make you feel old, but you are. Did she just call me old? I did not. Not to make you feel, I said, not to make you feel old.

11:05What is the one question that people are always asking you? And has it changed in the last 15 years? So I think the question is, is this still even worth it anymore? I think on points, you know, when I started the Points Guy in 2010, the narrative in media was that frequent flyer miles were useless. That negative narrative was why, you know, and meanwhile, there I was as a 27-year-old working at Morgan Stanley on an HR salary, not making money, you know, living, I was living paycheck to paycheck. And before I really understood how to maximize credit cards, you know, I was just getting suffocated by interest and not able to travel, feeling stuck.

11:43But until I really empowered myself to understand how credit cards work, because the points are nice, but really what I love about teaching people about the points game and credit cards is that you actually empower yourself to understand a system. And I love nothing more than when skeptical people come to me today in 2025 and say, this game is over, the credit card game. It couldn't be further from the truth. The game evolves, but I am firmly a believer that we are in the best time. The game can still be played. And, you know, I love your advice. I think the impatient generation, though, we want to be wealthy today.

12:21And what I love about points and travel and credit cards is that anyone with the right, you know, you can be a college kid. You can get value. You can take that trip. And I do believe travel and the ability to travel the world is wealth and can give you a mindset that makes you more successful at what you do, have a bigger, you know, understanding of the world. So bottom line, the game is still incredible today. It has changed, but there's huge opportunity. And, you know, we asked our listeners, they've said that things like inflation and tariffs, changes in the stock market, social security, like all of this stuff is weighing on them.

12:55What does it actually mean to be wealthy in this economy? Haley, do you want to take that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that especially for my audience, where it's millennial and Gen Z, we grew up with parents who had a version of the American dream that was pretty idealized. I mean, you got to get your house. You say that your job, my dad has been at his job for 40 years. And most people don't make it like 40 months or four months or, you know, they want a job. Like, you know, student loan debt is crazy. Inflation is out of control. So you need a new generation to meet this new economy that we're in.

13:41Yeah. So I'm curious though, when we think about what it means to be wealthy, Is there a definition, a goal, an amount of money people should be making? When I think about wealthy, I think about someone who doesn't have to check the price when they're at the grocery store. I think about someone who doesn't have to worry if the auto pay on their credit card is actually going to go through. It's someone who has, like, enough money that finance is not the number one, or frankly, the number one, two, or three factor in their decision making when they're living their life. I feel like you guys literally published some article or study that it was like the number was kind of crazy.

14:20That young people felt like they needed to make like 325 grand a year to feel wealthy. I think you can feel wealthy a lot earlier than that. But wealthy is not the same as conspicuous consumer. Wealthy is a mindset. It's understanding how the system works. Like understanding. And I'll just put it into the terms of travel. I think being wealthy, you can be wealthy and know how to travel, be able to travel where you want to get different perspectives and understand the system. So not just financial, but the airlines. When you're at an airport, your flight's canceled. Being wealthy can having the mindset to navigate that, to get ahead, to get your refund, to get rebooked.

15:05So I think wealth is money, but it's also a mindset and knowledge. An understanding of the system, as you like to say. Yeah. Because otherwise you feel really passive. Like when you have an understanding of the system, then you're actually going to take action. Versus like things happening to you. Yes, exactly. Like when our subscriptions add up and we don't do anything. And also what you realize too, is that it's not that hard. Like, okay, cool. Like not as bad as I thought. I can totally do this. So, you know. After the break, I talked to Haley, Vivian and Brian about homeownership, crypto, and the business of influencing.

15:43Stay with us.

16:02You know, we're the Wall Street Journal. A lot of our readers and listeners are very financially savvy, but that doesn't mean it can't sometimes feel intimidating anyway to try to understand, you know, where is my money going? What should I be doing with it? And some of our listeners had a lot of questions for us about investing, especially when it comes to their 401ks and retirement and what's in my portfolio. And one really common question we got is, should they include crypto in their portfolio? And I'm very curious what you all think about that. I like to think of crypto as the sprinkles. So like you don't get to have a sundae without your base of ice cream.

16:40You got to get the whipped cream. You got to get the caramel syrup. You got to get the banana. You got to get the maraschino cherry. And then the sprinkles go on top. Right. I feel like if you do not have the basics, so access to the public equities markets through stocks, if you don't have maybe some bond exposure, fixed income exposure, if you're getting a little bit older, if you don't already max out the tax advantages you have with accounts that are available to you, like a 401k, a 403b, an IRA, Roth IRA, if you're not doing all of the basic stuff at the bottom of the Sunday, you don't get sprinkles yet.

17:17I typically tell my audience one to 5 % is a healthy amount. But like, if you want to have crypto be a larger part of your portfolio, that is fine, but you have to be comfortable with losing every single dollar you put in. Haley, we were talking a little bit about this backstage. What do you think? Yeah, so I have an interesting relationship to cryptocurrency because I full-heartedly agree with Vivian on paper that it is sprinkles, but I've also made a lot of money in crypto. And so it's very addictive. and so I can understand this pull towards it of it's going to change my life. This is going to be so quick, but I have a very appropriate portfolio.

18:01And so, which is hard because I would like to go all in. Okay. So I'm a degenerate gambler, so I love crypto. It's just like you're all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just like Goldilocks and the three bears right here. I have a good amount of crypto, but I also don't do, you know, day trading. I think personally, I believe it's, you know, a huge part of the future of finance. I think all of our financial systems, like even in travel, the systems we have today to transfer bank currencies to airline miles are so antiquated, so fraud riddled. So like, I do believe the system is it's going to happen.

18:37So yeah, I'm, I'm not a financial advisor. For what it's worth. I also think I am a little bit more reticent on crypto because a healthy part of my portfolio is in private equity investments, meaning it is a high risk, high reward portfolio in itself. So all of the other stuff that I'm really thinking about is like, I want to preserve my cash in case some of these things blow up in my face. So like, yes, I do agree that. I mean, it seems like other sprinkles. Yes. One more question about investing. Whenever I think about things I'm supposed to be investing and I think this is true for a lot of folks, I think about buying a home and home ownership.

19:20It's one of those traditional milestone moments. But we also know that it's becoming harder and harder to do that, especially if you're living in a city like New York or any big city in the US, really. Is home ownership still a goal we should have? Well, I have a question for everybody who is asking this question. It's like, why do you want to own a home? Is it because you want to tell everybody that you own a home? Because that's a lot of why. We think we should be doing something. But as someone who owns one of my homes and then rents another, because I live in two different cities and spend time in both, like the reason I want to own in one place is because I think I'm gonna be here a long time.

19:59I want a place that I can paint the walls and knock down the closet and fix it. So it's exactly how I like it. And the hope is in a couple of years when I sell it, like I'll have made a little bit of money, But my money probably would have earned me a lot more being in some sort of other investment vehicle. My other home that I rent is because I want flexibility. I don't know if I'm going to be there in five to 10 years time. I can't have that time horizon locked up. So I love the flexibility of renting. I just think that too many people are buying homes for the wrong reason. It's to be able to say you bought a home versus actually thinking about, does this fit my lifestyle?

20:38And will this make sense in the future? Yes, I fully agree with that. And I think that when you look at the numbers of rent versus buy, you know, nine times out of 10, if you're in America, renting, you're going to make more money. And if you put your down payment in the stock market, but then there is this part of money that's so important to talk about. And this is what I love about what we do is, I feel like for all three of us is we're all about enjoying your money too, right? Like we want you to grow and stay rich and do all this stuff, but also to, you know, enjoy the ride. And for a lot of people, owning a home is a huge part of enjoying that ride.

21:19Like, I know so many people in my own life who, you know, financially, does it make complete sense to buy the home? No, but they have kids. They want to, you know, mark on the ruler how tall they are, like, whatever, all the... You can do that in a rental home, too. It's different. It's a pencil mark, Hailey. It's different. One last question for all of you. And, you know, you've talked about the businesses that you've built, the lives that you've put together, the advice that you give out, everything that you've built. But you were able to make enough through the work that you're doing to quit your day jobs, which at one point, all of you had, you know, gotten a salary from an employer.

21:59Do you recommend becoming an influencer as a way of building wealth? I mean, it's kind of a funny question, but I actually really mean it because so many young people now are thinking about that as a career path as opposed to following something more traditional. But is it really feasible? Is it sustainable? I think just the word influencer has a negative connotation. And influencer is an entrepreneur, period, in a modern era. In my case, I was able to buy the Point Sky domain for$10. I came up with an idea that I was passionate about. I worked my day job at Morgan Stanley and built up a following just pursuing what I loved.

22:32I had no business plan, figured out how to monetize through affiliate marketing, and was relentless about it. My business model changed. So people assume influencers are just taking photos and trying to sell brands and fake followers. And certainly there's a lot of fake influencers out there. But influencers these days and the influencers now at our level, like I'm investing in new businesses and using my platform to make even more generational wealth. So once you build a brand for yourself, which is what influencers are doing, you can monetize that in limitless ways. So, yeah, I think kids should be influencers.