In short
The Journal Podcast: Episode Summary
Episode Title
Kristi Noem’s $200 Million Mistake Hosts: Ryan Knutson and Jessica Mendoza Guest: Michelle Hackman Release Date: March 9, 2023 Description: This episode delves into Kristi Noem’s controversial tenure as head of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the factors that led to her firing by Trump.
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Key Points
Overview of Kristi Noem's Tenure
- Initial Impressions:
- Noem was known for her media-friendly style and her background as a governor of South Dakota.
- Her appointment to lead DHS was surprising as she had limited experience in immigration enforcement.
High-Cost Advertising Campaign
- Campaign Details:
- A $200 million advertising campaign aimed at deterring illegal immigration aired prominently.
- The campaign featured Noem and emphasized her personal image alongside DHS messaging.
- Consequences:
- The campaign became emblematic of her administration, suggesting a focus on self-promotion over effective governance.
- Critics argued it contributed significantly to her downfall.
Leadership Style and Controversies
- Clash with DHS Culture:
- Noem’s showy and confrontational style conflicted with the traditional culture of DHS.
- Anecdotes illustrate her tendency to prioritize image over protocol, such as publicizing ICE raids on social media, which compromised their effectiveness.
- Incidents Reflecting Leadership Issues:
- A notable incident involved a blanket debacle leading to the firing of a pilot, demonstrating a lack of serious leadership oversight.
- Concerns also arose regarding her relationship with top advisor Corey Lewandowski, who was a controversial figure in Trump’s orbit.
Major Operational Issues
- Team Changes:
- Noem fired or demoted a significant portion of DHS field leadership, which destabilized the department.
- Questionable Actions:
- The purchase of luxury planes for deportations raised eyebrows, indicating mismanagement of resources.
Senate Hearing and Downfall
- Critical Testimony:
- A Senate hearing where Noem was questioned on her spending and leadership marked a turning point.
- Her response to a senator's inquiry about the ad campaign implicated Trump, leading to a backlash.
Firing and Aftermath
- Immediate Fallout:
- Shortly after the Senate hearing, Noem was removed from her position at DHS.
- She was reassigned to a role seen as less significant, indicating a loss of influence.
New Leadership
- Transition:
- Mark Wayne Mullen, a senator and former MMA fighter, was named as her successor. His approach is expected to be confrontational but less focused on media spectacle compared to Noem.
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Analysis
- Media and Leadership:
- The episode highlights the tension between media-driven leadership styles and operational effectiveness, especially within a government agency.
- Impact of Public Image:
- Noem's downfall underscores the risks of prioritizing self-image in a politically charged environment like DHS, where actions can have significant implications.
- Political Dynamics:
- The episode illustrates the delicate relationship between Trump’s administration and its appointees, where loyalty and public image can directly impact job security.
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Conclusion This episode of *The Journal* examines Kristi Noem's rise and fall within the Trump administration, emphasizing the complex interplay of media presence, leadership effectiveness, and political accountability. The discussions reveal broader themes about governance, public perception, and the consequences of a style-over-substance approach in high-stakes environments.
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For further insights and discussions, consider exploring related episodes like:
- Inside the ICE Hiring Blitz
- Inside ICE's Aggressive Approach to Arresting Migrants
Listen to more episodes on Spotify or The Wall Street Journal.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOAnalyzing Noem's $200 Million Campaign
1:40 to 2:36
Discussion on Kristi Noem's expensive ad campaign at DHS.
“Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power.”
Noem's Leadership and Controversy
3:04 to 5:14
Exploration of Kristi Noem's leadership style and controversies at DHS.
“When Kristi Nelm started running DHS, she took on a huge mandate.”
The Impact of Public Image
5:14 to 7:25
Insights into how Noem prioritized public image over effective immigration enforcement.
“By tweeting out this picture of herself, by saying, we're about to do this big ice raid in New York, people were tipped off, advocacy groups were tipped off, and the raid wasn't successful.”
Operational Challenges and Conflicts
7:25 to 11:40
Examination of the operational challenges and conflicts during Noem's tenure.
“Over and over, what we heard is that Noam prioritized making a show out of enforcement over actually prioritizing effective enforcement.”
Senate Hearing and Noem's Downfall
11:40 to 14:00
Discussion on the Senate hearing that contributed to Noem's political downfall.
“And then came the ICE operation in Minnesota.”
Introduction to the Crisis
14:00 to 14:18
Discussion on the disastrous leadership of Kristi Noem.
“This episode is brought to you by Indeed.”
Kristi Noem's Testimony Analysis
15:12 to 16:15
Analysis of Kristi Noem's congressional testimony and its implications.
“working quietly and diligently to make it happen.”
The Impact of Trump's Approval
16:15 to 17:47
Exploration of how Trump's approval affected Noem's actions.
“Committee will come to order without objection.”
Consequences of Political Ambition
17:47 to 21:44
Discussion on the repercussions of Noem's political choices.
“television advertisements that feature you prominently?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:05Ryan Knutson:Last year, a splashy ad campaign featuring Kristi Noem, then head of the Department of Homeland Security, started showing up on TV.
0:13Michelle Hackman:Why do I love these wide open spaces? They remind me of why our forefathers came here.
0:19Ryan Knutson:Noem sits tall on a horse. She's wearing chaps, a cowboy hat. The granite faces of Mount Rushmore rise behind her.
0:27Michelle Hackman:I'm Kristi Noem From the Cowboys Who Tamed the West
0:30Ryan Knutson:The ads were directed at people thinking of illegally immigrating to the U.S. It was a warning not to come You cross the border illegally, we'll find you
0:40Michelle Hackman:Break our laws, we'll punish you
0:43Ryan Knutson:These TV spots were mostly in English And the campaign was pretty pricey Costing more than$200 million Our colleague Michelle Hackman says this campaign came to define Noam's unconventional tenure at DHS.
0:59Kristi Noem:It's a long, glossy ad. It glorifies America, but it glorifies her too.
1:05Ryan Knutson:It almost felt like she wasn't just running the show at DHS. She was like, literally, she was like starring in the show at DHS.
1:13Kristi Noem:Totally. That's exactly how I'd describe it. And she spent$200 million on these ads. I mean, that's a huge sum.
1:24Ryan Knutson:President Trump fired Noam last week. Her tenure was dogged by controversy. But in the end...
1:31Kristi Noem:Of all the things she did, this ad campaign might have been the one that ultimately led to her downfall.
1:40Ryan Knutson:Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Monday, March 9th.
1:53Ryan Knutson:Coming up on the show, Inside Kristi Noem's Rocky Tenure at DHS.
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3:12Ryan Knutson:When Kristi Nelm started running DHS, she took on a huge mandate. To execute the president's signature domestic campaign promise.
3:20Kristi Noem:I mean, President Trump ran on the idea of doing a mass deportation. He was saying he wanted to deport, you know, 10 or 15 million people. And naturally, the person who was going to become the face of that was going to be his DHS secretary.
3:35Ryan Knutson:Why did Trump pick Nome to lead DHS?
3:38Kristi Noem:You know, it's one of those things where Trump is looking for people who sort of are mirroring his TV-friendly style. He loves to see people on TV defending him, going out promoting his agenda, being a little confrontational. But I think, frankly, people were puzzled by the choice. There were a lot of rumors as Trump, you know, won the election and during the transition that he would try to pick an immigration hawk, someone maybe from his first term. It came as a total surprise when he picked Kristi Noem. You know, she is a governor. Governors are often a place that presidents turn when filling major cabinet positions.
4:22Kristi Noem:But she's from South Dakota. She had very limited experience with immigration.
4:27Ryan Knutson:Once she took the job, Michelle says Noem's camera-ready leadership style clashed with the culture at DHS.
4:36Kristi Noem:I start calling around to people to see what they think of her, And I very quickly realized that people inside the department who are not liberal, I mean, people who work in immigration enforcement, generally speaking, are fairly hawkish, are fairly sympathetic to the idea of deporting a lot of people. They were complaining that Kristi Noem was sort of standing in their way and showboating in a way. one early anecdote that they shared with me that that really became emblematic for me of how she runs the department is a few days after taking office she went on an ice raid and you know an ice for the whole point of an ice raid is that it's an element of surprise right you need to catch someone at their house as they're leaving and so if they know you're there they're not going to come out well christy noem goes on this ice raid in new york she tweets a photo of herself wearing an ice cap before the raid even starts, announcing that it's about to happen in New York.
5:40Kristi Noem:By tweeting out this picture of herself, by saying, we're about to do this big ice raid in New York, people were tipped off, advocacy groups were tipped off, and the raid wasn't successful.
5:52Ryan Knutson:This was part of a pattern. Noam often put herself front and center at DHS.
5:58Kristi Noem:So back in March, I got invited to join her on her first international trip. And it was a really important one because she was going to visit the really famous, the notorious prison in El Salvador where the U.S. sent all of those asylum seekers without any kind of trial. I think it holds 15 ,000 people. And she was like walking through very cavalierly. And at one point toward the end of the tour, she pulls aside with her aides and they start shooting a video.
6:30Michelle Hackman:I also want everybody to know, if you come to our country illegally, this is one of the consequences you could face. First of all, do not come to our country illegally.
6:39Kristi Noem:And behind her are these prisoners, and they're, like, stacked up in bunk beds, four high, really cramped in there. They're all shirtless and bald, and it's a really stark contrast because you have Nome there, you know, with perfectly quaffed curls and wearing a$50 ,000 Rolex watch.
6:58Michelle Hackman:This facility is one of the tools in our toolkit that we will use if you commit crimes against the American people.
7:08Ryan Knutson:According to Michelle's reporting, Noam wanted her immigration enforcement officers to be in the spotlight, too.
7:14Kristi Noem:You know, we saw that there was guidance to ICE officers that, you know, they should film every interaction, every arrest, and that the more confrontational arrest was, the better. That was explicit guidance given. Over and over, what we heard is that Noam prioritized making a show out of enforcement over actually prioritizing effective enforcement.
7:38Ryan Knutson:Noam and her top advisor fired or demoted 80 % of the career ice field leadership that was in place when she started. And she was known to make employees take lie detector tests if she felt she couldn't trust them. And then there was the blanket incident. Basically, she went on a trip and her plane had a mechanical issue.
8:00Kristi Noem:So the team had to sort of switch planes at the last minute. And the crew forgot to move her blanket onto the new plane. Her top advisor, Corey Lewandowski, ended up firing the pilot, the head of the crew, for forgetting her blanket. And the craziest part is, once they landed, they realized they had no one to fly them home. And so they had to reinstate the pilot.
8:21Ryan Knutson:All over a blanket. Okay.
8:26Ryan Knutson:The complaints weren't just about Noam, though. Michelle learned there were also concerns about Corey Lewandowski, her top advisor.
8:33Kristi Noem:Corey Lewandowski was, you know, Trump's very first campaign manager. He's been at Trump's side, you know, ever since maybe 2015. Trump perceives him as very loyal. And we reported that Kristi Noam and Corey Lewandowski, who are both married, are in a romantic relationship. and they've done, you know, very little inside DHS to hide that relationship from people. He is always by her side. He is her top advisor.
8:59Ryan Knutson:Noam and Lewandowski have both denied reports of an affair. A DHS spokeswoman said the department, quote, doesn't waste time with salacious, baseless gossip. What really concerned people inside DHS, sources told Michelle, was that Lewandowski was not technically a full-time government employee.
9:16Kristi Noem:So he is something called a special government employee. Listeners may be familiar with that because it's the same designation Elon Musk got. It's supposed to be for sort of specialized private sector expertise. It's supposed to be for a short stint inside the government. But Corey Lewandowski still had a role in the private sector for his own consulting firm, while also effectively serving as the chief of staff at DHS. Now, he was supposed to serve only 130 days, but he played all sorts of games to extend that out. He would basically follow other people into DHS buildings so he didn't have to swipe himself in.
9:59Kristi Noem:So that way he wouldn't count a day. Anytime he traveled with the secretary, he didn't count that toward his 130 days. And so he kept extending this.
10:07Ryan Knutson:The DHS spokeswoman said Lewandowski is in full compliance with the Office of Government Ethics Forms. One of the things that Noem and Lewandowski decided to do was order DHS to purchase eight airplanes for mass deportations, one of which was a luxury 737 MAX jet.
Read the full transcript
10:25Kristi Noem:It's got only 18 seats, and it's got a private cabin in back. Now, in DHS paperwork, this thing is earmarked for high-profile deportations. But we were told that this was the plane that Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski were flying around in.
10:42Ryan Knutson:The DHS spokeswoman said the plane was used for both deportations and cabinet-level travel. Noam and Lewandowski also had tight control over department spending.
10:52Kristi Noem:Basically, they set up this rule that said any contract over$100 ,000 had to receive personal sign-off from them. Now, that might sound like a good government strategy. You know,$100 ,000 is a big chunk of change. But DHS is a multi-billion dollar agency.
11:13Ryan Knutson:Yeah, I'm sure there are a lot of very big checks coming out of this department.
11:16Kristi Noem:There are a lot of very big checks. And$100 ,000 in government really doesn't buy you very much. And so what's happening over the last few months is that contracts were just piling up on Kristi Noem's desk to the point where, you know, all sorts of things very nearly expired or did expire.
11:40Ryan Knutson:And then came the ICE operation in Minnesota.
11:44Michelle Hackman:Well, it has been a noisy night here in downtown Minneapolis as protesters have gathered outside the canopy by...
11:53Ryan Knutson:How would you say Kristi Nelm handled Minnesota?
11:56Kristi Noem:She, you know, for months, she had been promoting, again, a sort of really showy, confrontational form of immigration enforcement. She engaged, you know, this guy named Greg Bovino in the Border Patrol to lead these operations where he would send agents out in huge roving bands to look for people. I mean, very different from how traditional immigration enforcement is done, where you have sort of specific targets and it's kind of limited. and you saw that sort of extremely over-the-top confrontational approach culminating in two deadly shootings of American citizens who were, you know, Renee Good was driving a car and Alex Preddy was out protesting and you immediately have Kristi Noem go on TV and say, you know, Alex Preddy committed an act of domestic terrorism.
12:54— This individual who came with weapons and ammunition
12:57Michelle Hackman:to stop a law enforcement operation of federal law enforcement officers committed an act of domestic terrorism. That's the facts.
13:05Kristi Noem:— And then, you know, a video comes out of him, and he's on his knees getting shot from behind his head. I mean, it was extremely incongruous with what Americans saw with their own eyes. — According to Michelle's reporting,
13:21Ryan Knutson:patience was wearing thin inside the White House— And Democrats made DHS leadership an issue in funding talks. The president defended Noem publicly until last week, when Noem was called to testify on Capitol Hill. So then that leads to this Senate hearing. How important was this Senate hearing for Kristi Noem? It was huge for her.
13:44Kristi Noem:And we were told that most people in the White House by that point wanted her gone, and they just felt like they needed to convince the president that it was the right time. And so there was a lot of attention paid to these hearings and how well she would perform.
14:00Michelle Hackman:What we've seen is a disaster. Under your leadership, Ms. Noam, a disaster. And that's what doomed her.
14:10Ryan Knutson:That's next.
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16:15Kristi Noem:Committee will come to order without objection. The chair is authorized to declare recess.
16:18Ryan Knutson:As Kristi Noem testified on Capitol Hill last week, the White House was watching.
16:24Kristi Noem:The hearings were crazy. You know, it's one thing if Democrats are ambushing Kristi Noem and she doesn't do well. It's another if Republicans go after her. And in this case, a couple of Republicans actually did. I mean, Tom Tillis, a Republican, went after her, basically saying her leadership had been awful. accusing her of obstructing sort of investigations into her work. That is stonewalling.
16:50Michelle Hackman:That's a failure of leadership. And that is why I've called for your resignation.
16:54Kristi Noem:In the House, you know, one Democrat asked her point blank on the dais under oath. Have you had sexual relations with Corey Lewandowski? Mr.
17:06Michelle Hackman:Chairman, I am shocked that we're going down and peddling tabloid garbage in this committee today.
17:12Ryan Knutson:Noam refused to answer the question directly. And another Democrat gifted her a new blankie.
17:19Michelle Hackman:I don't want you to leave. I got you a new Coast Guard blankie, the one you lost. Okay, so this is for you. You don't leave empty-handed when you come to judiciary.
17:31Ryan Knutson:But Michelle, sources say the moment that really got Noam in trouble started when a staunch Trump ally grilled her about that ad campaign you heard about earlier.
17:39Kristi Noem:John Kennedy is a senator from Louisiana, And he really turned on Kristi Noem in this hearing.
17:46Michelle Hackman:How do you square that concern for waste, which I share, with the fact that you have spent$220 million running television advertisements that feature you prominently?
18:08Kristi Noem:And he asked her why she spent so much money on these ads, what the point was. You know, she said, did they work? And he said, they worked to promote your own self-image. Well, they were effective in your name recognition. And she made what I think was basically her fatal mistake in that interaction. She told him, you know, President Trump actually signed off on these ads.
18:33Michelle Hackman:Sir, we went through the legal processes. Did it correct? Did the president know you were going to do this? Yes.
18:38Ryan Knutson:He did?
18:39Michelle Hackman:Mm-hmm.
18:40Ryan Knutson:Yes. Okay. Why was that a fatal mistake?
18:45Kristi Noem:In Trump world, there's a lot you can get away with, but one sort of cardinal rule is that you never blame Trump or you never implicate Trump when you've made a mistake. We were told that when Trump saw that she had implicated him, that is when he snapped and made the decision and said, she's done. We need to find a replacement for her.
19:10Ryan Knutson:Trump later told Reuters that he, quote, never knew anything about Noam's ad spends. Noam has said publicly before that Trump was aware of her campaign. Last Thursday, just a day after she testified, Noam was out at DHS. Her advisor, Corey Lewandowski, is also leaving. The president announced on Truth Social that he was moving Noam to something he called the shield of the Americas.
19:34Kristi Noem:It's almost like she's an envoy to Latin America, so she can continue some of the work that she was doing, fighting drug cartels, transnational gangs, the things that she liked to talk a lot about as DHS secretary. But, you know, it's not a cabinet position. It's also, you know, something that basically is redundant because we have ambassadors all over Latin America. And, you know, Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, Latin America's sort of his personal sweet spot.
20:04Ryan Knutson:The person taking over Noam's role at DHS is a man named Mark Wayne Mullen.
20:10Kristi Noem:Mark Wayne Mullen is a senator from Oklahoma. This guy, Ryan, is a former MMA fighter, and fighting seems to be sort of the way that he approaches his current job, and I think that's how we should expect him to come into this new one.
20:25Michelle Hackman:There's a lot of work we can do to get Department of Homeland Security working, working for the American people?
20:31Kristi Noem:I think that Mark Wayne Mullen, he is someone who doesn't shy away from confrontation. He's a former professional fighter. I think he is going to sort of take a tough, macho man approach to immigration enforcement, but it may not be as showboaty as what we have witnessed over the last year.
20:52Michelle Hackman:My focus is to keep the homeland secure. That's going to be my focus.
21:01Kristi Noem:We have been reporting on Kristi Noem's foibles for so long, and over and over we were told, you know, Trump said that he picked the perfect cabinet and he doesn't want to contradict himself. And so the fact that Kristi Noem became the first person to get fired is pretty notable.
21:21Ryan Knutson:While Noem's made-for-TV style of leadership appealed to Trump initially, Michelle says that in the end, she may have flown too close to the sun.
21:30Kristi Noem:There gets to a point where it becomes too much for him, and especially if someone is seen as sort of using a position that he gives them to serve themselves, to enrich themselves, that's when Trump really doesn't like it. And I think Kristi Noem, unfortunately, crossed that line.
22:02Ryan Knutson:That's all for today. Monday, March 9th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Josh Jossie and Tarini Party.
22:16Ryan Knutson:Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
22:21Michelle Hackman:The Future of Everything is the Wall Street Journal's flagship live event, returning to New York City May 4th through 5th. Be there as CEOs, policymakers, and innovators sit down with our journalists to answer the most pressing questions of the day. From finance, tech, and economic policy to sports, streaming, and style, we're bringing together today's most compelling newsmakers for two days of conversations on what's ahead. Listeners of this podcast can access exclusive discounted rates by visiting wsj.com slash future. That's wsj.com slash future.
From the publisher
Kristi Noem brought a camera-ready leadership style to the Department of Homeland Security. Now, after a turbulent year leading the agency, Trump has fired her. WSJ's Michelle Hackman takes us behind the scenes of her controversial tenure and what led to her downfall. Ryan Knutson hosts.
Further Listening:
- Inside the ICE Hiring Blitz
- Inside ICE's Aggressive Approach to Arresting Migrants
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