726 Linda Wang: Founder & CEO of Karuna Skin & Avatara

0:00I am unwilling to give up, but I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be.

0:09Kara Goldin:You just want to make sure you will get knocked down, but just make sure you don't get knocked out. So your only choice should be, go focus on what you can control. Hi everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world's greatest leaders. We'll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can't wait to get started. Let's go. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Kara Golden Show. Today, I'm so excited to be joined by Linda Wang, who is the founder and CEO of not one, but two brands, Karuna Skin and Avatara, which are incredible, incredible brands.

1:00Kara Goldin:We're going to hear all about them. I've been such a fan. I have to admit that I was turned on to Karuna Skin ages ago. And I'm super happy to see that you can also now get it at many Whole Foods throughout the country, of course, online too. But two purpose-driven skincare brands inspired by Linda's own personal journey and cultural roots. So growing up in Taiwan, Linda struggled with eczema and found relief through a family remedy. So love, love, love that we're going to get to hear all about this. The sheet masks, like I said, the Karuna sheet masks are just to die for. So in 2017, then she launched Avatara and you could find that at many, many stores as well as online.

1:53Kara Goldin:It really focused on tweens, teens, and beyond, but I use it as well and I'm clearly not a teen. So I'm excited to dive into her journey building these category-defining brands and find out what it really takes to create a skincare, or I should say two skincare brands that really empower and do awesome stuff for consumers. So Linda, welcome to the Cara Golden Show. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Super, super excited to meet you and seriously a big fan of your brand. So thank you so much. Likewise. Absolutely. So okay, so let's start with the big picture. Tell us about Karuna Skin and Avatara.

2:40Kara Goldin:Karuna came first, I guess. But how would you describe each brand and what makes them unique in the skincare space. This episode of the Kara Golden Show is brought to you by Range Rover Sport. You know that old saying, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Well, I believe it's also how you show up because in business and in life, you have to lead with presence, power, and adaptability. That's exactly what the Range Rover Sport brings to the table. It's a force inside and out with a dynamic sporting personality, an assertive stance, and refined performance. This SUV doesn't just handle challenges, it owns them.

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4:16Kara Goldin:Again, that's Range Rover.com slash US slash sport. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. This message is a paid partnership with AT &T Business. Hey everyone, Kara here. Let's get real about those early days of building a business. Not the highlight reel, the actual day-to-day, the friction, trying to manage everything across time zones, across teams, across locations, and realizing how much depends on staying connected. I remember those days at Hint, a retailer call, an order, a decision, all of it. And you realize quickly, connection isn't a nice to have. It's the lifeblood of your business. As a founder, you don't want to think about your connectivity.

5:03Kara Goldin:You just need it to work every time. That's why AT &T Business matters. AT &T Business is the reliable provider for small business owners. And when you have that kind of reliability behind you, you can focus on what actually moves your business forward. Powered by AT &T Business, built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com. Yeah, so when I started Karuna in 2009, my background was a fashion merchandise buyer. So I was already in the buying world, but more on the apparel side. And I just got the itch. I think on my 20s, I always get bored with projects I'm working on, and I was always looking for a new challenge.

5:54And little did I know that's a very much of an entrepreneur trait. So I came up with a thousand ideas and really landed on Sheen Mask. At that time, my mom currently lives in Taiwan, but she always gave us really fun skincare products from Asia. and I stumble on a sheet mask application. And a little more research I've done, I realized that that's the only form of masking Asians do. And so it was so smart. It's about adding hydration back in your skin instead of pulling things out. And it's a really important trait in order to keep of very hydrate and balanced skin. And as I dug in a little bit further about sheet masks and the technical background behind it, I realized that I came across a experience as a child.

6:53I, you know, as you mentioned, I suffer a lot of skin conditions and ailments as a kid. I just, as long as I can remember all my childhood stories or my siblings reminding me how bad my skin, you know, skin was. And my parents constantly were taking me seeking out remedies. And one time we stumbled on a Eastern doctor and he asked me to put a ointment on my rash. And then he said, when you go to sleep, make sure you wrap a plastic wrap around it. So within days that rash went away. And that was my aha moment when I discovered sheet masks, where the mass fiber itself acts kind of like a plastic wrap and it really helps you seclude and help you penetrate the active ingredients to get in your skin more.

7:43And that's why it works. So because of that, that's how I came up with an idea, started Sheet Mask. And, you know, proud to say that I was one of the first Sheet Mask brand launched in the US back in 2009.

7:57Kara Goldin:So, so amazing. So then Avatara, Can you talk about that brand? Yeah, absolutely. So my goal was always like, hey, let me eventually look at a younger demographic brand, you know, as a sister brand. So at that time, my nieces were preteens and they started dabbling into skincare. And of course, every time I go visit, I'm like, where is my sister buying them? And I will like turn the bottle around. I started reading the ingredient list. And I realized that, you know, there aren't a lot of clean skincare products out there for preteen and teens at the time. So it was really important for me to create a, you know, a fun skincare line that really just promotes clean ingredients.

8:46But at the same time, like promotes that there is this like fun element, you know, into applying skincare. less more like a chore, more like a social gathering, a ritual, an interactive activity that kids do.

9:04Kara Goldin:Well, and we're seeing Gen Z. I have four of them. One that's right on the cusp of being a millennial, but two girls and two boys. And my son grabbed one of the moisturizers that you had and he's 23. And it's funny because I think gone are the days where people felt like as a male that you couldn't moisturize your skin. I mean, it's kind of crazy when you think about it. Right? It's like his skin was just super dry from being out in the sun and everything. And so anyway, I just, I feel like, you know, you've got a big, big market. Thank you. Yeah. And I love that, you know, your son now, you know, gets into skincare because before it's kind of like a notion where like, you're not manly enough if you're using skincare products, but it's education, right?

10:02It's, it's, you are applying moisturizer to your skin because it does get dry. I mean, there are a lot of environmental forces like wind, snow, rain, whatever, right? That could really disrupt that. And it's so nice that he is using that. And that's the new generation.

10:22Kara Goldin:Yeah, definitely. So before launching both of your brands, you had a career in retail buying, as you mentioned, for major fashion companies. How do you think that experience prepared you for being a beauty entrepreneur? A lot. I have to say a lot of my training really helped me build my company. Just not on the merchandising side, but it's a lot of operational side. I'm able to look at how do you manage a healthy inventory level, right? how to negotiate with suppliers, how do we put out the right products on shelves so it sells. A lot of it has to be trained eyes when you're walking in a store, looking at competitors and looking at the gap, what the retailer is missing.

11:20So you can present yourself as a category or items that they currently don't have there in their assortment. So all those things come into play.

11:33Kara Goldin:Yeah, definitely. And also very competitive category, just like beauty. Definitely. So, so interesting. So a lot of brands have runaway best sellers, I guess, you know, you have two brands. So would you say that there are, there was one product in each of the brands that are kind of the runaway or is there any that are kind of neck and neck as first and must tries? No, definitely. We have, I mean, I'll start with Avatara first because we started 2017. So a lot of times your best sellers don't last like 16 years or so. But Avatara, since we started 2017. It really depends on the retailer. Target, we have two SKUs currently are literally top two.

12:31They go head and head every week since 2017. So people can't get enough of those SKUs. It's Chill Out, which is an Elevera mask. And then there is also Drink Up, which is hydrating. So those two are doing exceptionally well, but on a brand level, including other retailers, are Watermallow, which is watermelon hydrating mask. That one takes the rain. That is nationally number one mask in the national skincare data for sheet masks. And for Karuna, since we started 2009, I would say our hydrating face mask used to be the number one. But because we're revamping the assortment right now, so that one's kind of taking a backseat as that kind of that belongs to the pro skin line.

13:26So we don't sell that at Whole Foods Market. But in terms of like looking at Whole Foods Market, our biocellulose quench mass right now is our number one. I think it also has something to do with the summertime, right? Biocellulose is 100 % from coconut pulp. So it's super cooling on your skin. So it's perfect for, you know, a day at the beach, you know, post sun care. So that one currently is our number one. And our skincare product is the all day cream. So that one is very light, velvety and super cooling on the skin. And that's our number one.

14:06Kara Goldin:I loved that you started, when I first asked the question and you started to answer it, you said it really depends on the retailer. Because so often when you're an entrepreneur and you're launching a brand in any category, you try it and then all of a sudden it doesn't work in that store. And maybe you want to say that it didn't work in that store, but you start to feel like your baby's ugly, right? Like, why isn't it working? You know, this is such a great product, but it really, once you start to see different brands, meaning Target or Walmart or Whole Foods, and yes, there's crossover, but there's so many factors, right?

14:53Kara Goldin:It depends on where you are in the store, who you're next to, the lighting, all these factors. Can you talk about that and sort of what your experience has been? Yeah, I think merchandising is huge, right? So for example, recently we were just in Target stores and we launched a collection of lip jellies. And we're in kind of in the color aisle sandwich between larger brands. And I think that that was definitely easy to miss. But once they pull us out, like one of the SKUs in that picture, they pulled us out in a summer shop that was sitting by the cash rep, dry vial. It's called Beach Shop. And that SKUs, literally we saw it selling five times higher.

15:43So I think merchandising is really important. Like to your point with the lighting, the signage, all that, right? The other thing is, different retailers cater to different demographic. It depends on... If you look at Target, you look at Walmart, where are they located at, the real estate in America? I think you service different clientele. So it's really important that we are creating products that speak to Walmart's clientele versus Target's clientele because the wants and needs are very different.

16:18Kara Goldin:Yeah, definitely. So Karuna was your first brand. It's one thing to launch a, or I should say, hear from your family in Taiwan that they know about these great sheets and masks. But it's another thing to say, I'm going to go launch a company around this. I mean, how did you have the courage and the fearlessness to actually go and just go do this? Oh my God. I don't know, but I'm sure you probably feel the same way. But I was at that time just, I think I was 30 or 31. So now I'm looking back, I'm like, God, I was a baby back then. Right. And, um, I don't know, it's just something like fire inside of me where I just felt like this concept, this idea makes a lot of sense.

17:11And I did a lot of market research. So at that time, you know, makeup removal wipes were what was happening and then turn into your household wipes. So I realized that there is more of a consumer usage, you know, you know, evolution at that time where people are just they don't want to take a spray bottle and a cloth wipe things down. They want treat and toss. And so I felt like sheet masks fell into that form, that application. So that validated me that this potentially can work. But it was really hard. I have to say, starting out, it was super overwhelming. But I remember I had to tell myself and I and back in the day, I would just tell myself like, hey, you're going to list 10 things on your list.

18:03And you're going to cross the first three off and you're going to add three more because if I think about A to Z and I will, I would overwhelm myself and then I couldn't move the needle. I couldn't start because it's so scary. So that's what I essentially did. And I was really disciplined. I was working out in my condo and I literally would go upstairs and that would be my office. I would get out of bed. Same thing I would if I was going to work, I would go upstairs to the loft and I'll just start working. And because no one's going to tell you, but you got to move things. You got to follow up with things.

18:40There weren't, you know, you don't have meetings in place. You don't have deliverables or do. So it's just kind of like, it's you, you have to make those things happen. So that's essentially what I did. I took a baby, like little, you know, little baby steps. And so you only launched with one SKU. I launch actually with six SKUs. And so, yeah, so I started in 2009. I officially launched in July. And at that time, you know, this side of the world, nobody knew what a sheet mask, you know, was. And it was a lot of analogies I had to come up, you know, trying to get that light bulb go off. And it was pre, it was before social media.

19:23So I couldn't even do a visual aid a quick video or anything to share, to educate. So it became pretty much word of mouth. And at that time, retail was very different. And I guess launching brands are very different back then because you really heavily rely on press, right? So you have to do desk sites and you want editors post about you and talk about you and be in magazines and those things were big. And at the same time, I knew like previously as a buyer, I knew where buyers go shop for inspiration. So I would hit those stores first. So we're talking about the Henry Vendels in New York City, right?

20:10The Barneys. So those were really important. So I got in there and slowly started paving my way of distribution. Then later we went into Sephora and Ulta. So that's how we essentially started with Karuna. Yeah.

20:25Kara Goldin:So did what was your first store that you actually launched with? It actually was Joyce Beauty in Hong Kong. Do you know of them? I do know of them, but but it's wild that that's that that was your first one. I know. And funny enough, when I first launched the sheet mask, I was like, I am never I'm not going back to Asia with this because they already have a lot of mass options. And little did I know there's always a boy and there's always a space you can get into. So we went into Joyce Beauty. The next one I went into was Bliss Boss. So that was another, you know, at that time, they were all within like the W Hotel.

21:11So all the W Hotel has Bliss Boss. So that was really great that we went into. And then the next one we went into was Henry Vindell. So.

21:19Kara Goldin:That's wild. I think that might've been where I first tried it was at Bliss Spa. So it's, that was, that was amazing. So your nieces, I guess, influenced the creation of Avatara and its mission. Can you share that story? Yeah, the, you know, at that time it's funny because they're just kind of the first product they got into was cleanser because they started getting a little hormonal with the pH balance and stuff. So my sister started buying them a lot of, you know, cleanser on the marketplace. And then that really inspired me. But because, you know, my Roo and the company started in sheet masks, I thought, you know, let's create a line of sheet masks and, um, but cater to younger skin, um, remove, you know, all the harsh chemicals and actives that young skin don't need.

22:16Cause you don't want to disrupt their, you know, barrier and hormone and things like that. So that's how I started. So I started with believe eight masks and I wanted to keep the name really fun. You know, our names like our chill out, you know, drink up. I think back then we just continue these ones, but we had fill it up. And, you know, there was just like really fun names that were catchy. And that's how I started it. And little did I know, you know, cause we, we got ahead of the Gen Z and now Gen Alpha, right. Getting the, the whole skincare age is getting younger and younger. And we were really excited to learn about that because the one thing that, you know, throughout the years I've observed and as masks started getting more and more popular, that is the entry product a young girl is going to try first.

23:14So you're sort of seeing six-year-old, seven-year-old putting a sheet mask on. It's a one-time use. It becomes a, you know, a like activity that they do, right? So they run to Target with their moms or stores and they are like, can I buy one? And it's$3. The mom's like, sure, pick one. And so that's, you know, that's what we realized that that's like how we started converting them into, you know, trying skincare. So yeah, no, it's been really fun. I, you know, now my nieces are older, so they're Gen Z. So one is going to be a senior in college and one is just going to be a freshman in college this fall.

23:57But I utilize their network, their community, their friends. And we do a lot of focus group with them. We're like, what do you think of this design? What do you think of that? What do you think of this idea and the formulation? So it really keeps me young because it's really fun to create Avatara because I get to learn about, you know, Gen Alpha and Gen Z's culture. So. Are you global as well?

24:24Kara Goldin:You mentioned that you had started outside of the U.S. was your first store for Karuna, at least. But can you talk a little bit about that and kind of the decision making process around that? Yeah. So Karuna definitely had a longer legs. So we are in Mecca, Australia. And previously, we were in Dubai. And then currently, we are also in Singapore and Malaysia. But as for Avatara, we're really more focused in the US right now, although we just launched in Walmart, Canada this year. So that's very exciting. in terms of expanding internationally is definitely my next year and the next three years goal for Avatara as I feel like there's a lot of room for growth.

25:16So we're really excited about that.

25:19Kara Goldin:What has surprised you the most about scaling in retail while keeping your products affordable and high quality? I mean, you started your first brand and Karuna not in retail. And then you got a ton of experience in making products and packaging and different packaging, of course, for Avatara. But what has surprised you the most about building the brand and scaling in mass retail while keeping products affordable and high quality? So there's so many things. There are so many things. I think, you know, first and foremost for me, having been a buyer, I think it's really important that I read all the selling reports from retailers every Monday.

26:11I think it's really important to understand what's working for them, what's not, what can we assist. And also just look at trends, right? To see if like, does something happen to spike the sale of that? You know, does something marketing do to do that? So I think that's really important. But at the same time, I believe in sampling and just giving out products to try. What's really hard about growing a company is not getting enough customer base, right? You're constantly looking at how do you broaden your customer base? How do you become a known brand? And how do you become more relevant? So these days are a lot of social media, right?

26:57That you have to different strategies, different channels, different platforms. You know, one might work for a brand doesn't mean it will work for you, right? So for example, like Instagram is more prominent for Karuna, but not as much as TikTok, but vice versa. TikTok is more for Avatara versus, you know, Instagram. So I think all those things come into play. So I think that's more on the marketing side. but in terms of like growing and, you know, it's managing inventory and making sure you're constantly in stock. And also, I think once you're ramping up, a lot of times you can't keep in stock.