Episode 10 - Kellyanne Conway | The Katie Miller Podcast

22:38where you go to school, whom you marry, or if you don't, and what you do when no one's looking. Those are incredibly others on mommy's list, but those are three important ones. And one of them said to me recently, well, you didn't get, you know, you're not batting a thousand. I said, well, that's true, but at least I tried and I acted on my feelings and what I knew and love at the time. So, so anyway, you asked if it took a toll note. I would say the campaign was very exciting for us as a family because we lived in Alpine, New Jersey, a suburb of New York City. I was home most nights once in a while.

23:15Because the campaign was based out of New York. The campaign was based out of New York City and Trump Tower was home most nights or in the mornings. And when I wasn't, I would stay overnight and do the early shows, etc. and try to get back. Worked then, as I did in the White House for four years, for an unbelievable girl boss. President Trump is so good to women and he's so good, women employees, and so good to working moms, particularly, none of us ever asked for a special treatment. I've told the story before, but it's worth repeating on the Katie Miller podcast because you'll appreciate it firsthand, as will your husband.

23:47I looked up in the Roosevelt room one day, which is a skiff, and you and I were in the White House together then. And I just happened, it just was a random Tuesday at 8.20 in the morning, and I was taking notes and I looked around and I saw Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Ivanka Trump and Brooke Rollins and Mercedes Schlapp and me. And instead of writing in the margins, my infinite to-do list, it never gets done. I started writing the names of our children. And I came up with 19 children, 19 children, the five of us at the time, Katie, ages two through 16. So show me the C-suite in America where that's possible.

24:21Show me the C-suite in America where five working moms of 19 children, ages two through 16, could actually have the highest rank in the company, assistant to the president. And he created that. So it was, The campaign was a love affair for my family because the kids were excited with the posters. I saved them all.

24:39Katie Miller:Did the kids know anything about the politics at the time or care about the politics at the time? Not really. They were proud of me. They knew who Donald Trump was. George was so supportive. George is the only person I told when President Trump asked me to be campaign manager on a Friday that summer. And I like to say, like, if it were a man, he would have gone down to the corral of media, who always nested in Trump Tower and said, the campaign is in a different direction now. I am in charge. We will win. And instead, I went down the side door. I was like, oh, my God. Will they see it on my face?

25:09Will they ask me? And the president was going to Altoona, Pennsylvania, somewhere else that Danny Reince Priebus is standing there. And so I just had a brief, you know, and left. And George said, you have to do this. He said, Donald Trump can actually win with you. He said, you have to, you know. I said, well, he's got a great team. We just need to make a couple of tweaks, and he's the one going and making 10 stops a day. This is his campaign. But I think it came from understanding the country for so long, and things just clicked. I mean, President Trump has a great sense of so many things, like the culture, as I said earlier, but also just timing.

25:45He hired me to do a poll. Michael Cohen, that one, called me in 2011 to do a poll for President Trump about running against President Obama, or Mr. Trump, running against President Obama. And the poll said it was going to be a tough climb. You know, Obama's special. Do I think he could have been beaten? Probably. But I said to Mr. Trump at the time, I said, you know, Mr. Trump, you'll never truly know what America thinks of you until you're actually a declared candidate because you're Donald Trump. And it's hard for some people to say, why would he want to do this? He's already Donald Trump. Other politicians are motivated by power and fame and money and a big staff and the ability to fly around the world or have their own plane.

26:27Check, check, check, check, check, check, check. You know, already had a brilliant, beautiful wife. Check, check, check. And so people, it was hard for them to believe that he would want to do that. And Melania at the time went one step further. She said to him, she had been around him for years and she saw the way people reacted to him. And she said, Donald, if you run, you have to be ready to be president because you will win. She had faith from the very beginning because she had watched it up close all that time. And her instincts are incredible. She sees so much and she knows and she just shares so much with him.

26:58And that's private for them. But I've witnessed it, just the wisdom and the perception where she's seeing and reading and listening and understands what's going on in the culture, understands what he's thinking. So no, the campaign itself was wonderful. On election night with my husband, George, crying in his MAGA hat. It was a black and white MAGA hat. She did it, she did it. He was so happy and our family was so proud.

27:27Katie Miller:So then fast forward to, so May, he leaves his position, steps out. What happens next? Yes. So he's never confirmed because they were still waiting for confirmation. Well, he starts to turn on Trump. He starts to tweet. And in 2016— Was there something that happened? There was something that happened. His first tweet was about Don McGahn and the Department of Justice or something, or a judicial decision. It's all a blur at this point because I didn't believe it was real. Sean Spicer was coming toward me in the East Room. We were all in there for an event. And he's got his phone in his hand. And he said, is this George's tweet?

27:59And I said, can't be. George doesn't tweet. because in 2016, which was known as the year of the tweet because of Donald Trump and Twitter and his ability to use social media to connect with people directly and cut out the middleman in the media.

28:13Katie Miller:So George makes a Twitter account? I didn't believe it. He had a Twitter account, but he never used it. He never tweeted. In the year of the tweet, George Conway sent no tweets in 2016. So I'm sure he's well over 100 and some thousand. Do you think it was something with Don McGahn or someone encouraged him to do so? No, no, no. I don't think it was Don McGahn or anybody. I think George saw that and stepped in and stepped up and wanted to make his voice known. But it was, you know, he deleted a bunch of them at the beginning, as I recall. To be honest, I don't remember every detail except that I can tell you the shock was real.

28:43I have very thick shock absorbers, as you can imagine, as I know you do. The shock was real. The pain was very deep. It just was not expected. And just so we're clear, Katie, none of us, none of us are our spouses. We don't owe allegiance to a political party or a candidate or that issue or this idea. We owe allegiance, you know, to the country, to God, if that's how you believe. But we also owe us to the Constitution. As you know, you've taken it. But Georgia's allegiance was to me. The vows were to me. And I think if there was a change for either one of us in opinion about this presidency, then the place to discuss that is at home.

29:30Katie Miller:Privately. And that's the way we always did. So when you go home, did you guys discuss this or did you gloss over it? Well, I'm not a gloss over it kind of gal. And I was really trying to mitigate it. I was also trying to understand it. I was trying to mitigate the damage for our kids because it's funny. When we were in the White House, I would say from time to time, Ivanka Trump and Sarah Huckabee Sanders, their kids were ages like 0, 2, 4, 7, whatever it was. They were small. And gosh, when they're older, when they're teenagers and tweens, they read everything. And to hear at school, does your daddy hate your mommy now?

30:04It's very hurtful. And they're just their children. Not that the media cared much. They went right for the jugular years later.

30:14Katie Miller:They exploited your children. Direct messaging a 15-year-old girl, asking her to tell her more about her family. By the way, just because I know they're watching, I know they watch a podcast. I have those direct messages, the ones that my daughter shared with me. And I'm a fully recovered attorney, but I know about statutes and limitations. And I know about... So the Christian in me has not really been able to find forgiveness for all of them yet. They're so awkward around me. I think they just wonder. If you know. Well, because they think they never thought... They thought they would just do me in.

30:46and if somebody's family or child is shrapnel, so be it in the service of getting Trump. By the way, the media's job is to get the story, but they believe that their mission, their calling in life is get Trump. They don't do either at this point.

31:01Katie Miller:They're also, their goal is to be the story. There he is, yeah, their goal is to be the story. So no, it was very hurtful, and then I think George got a new following. He got fans and folks on social media. would talk at home about this. You know, obviously I think you both understood, maybe only you understood, what, you know, your children seeing this later, but yet it still continued for years. So if you go and you look, I'm sure you won't find many responses from me, if at all. I was asked one or two times what I thought, and, you know, do you think the president should go out? And 60 Minutes wanted to interview me and us and all the morning shows, they'll deny it again, have those texts.

31:43And I ended up just giving a brief interview unexpectedly to Maria Bartiromo. She was here in Washington. I gave her an interview for one of the business shows and she started asking me about it. And I just gave her the answer. Like it's very hurtful and I believe in discussing family matters privately. and so and it's funny because people think that somehow President Trump and George were in this spat. President Trump rarely mentioned him. He mentioned him a couple times in answers to a very specific question but never said his name because that's what President Trump does.

32:16Katie Miller:He doesn't say your name if he just doesn't want to make you relevant and he said oh you mean Mr. Kellyanne Conway? I don't know you have to ask her. I don't know him well and she's wonderful. I don't the why he would do that. And so, but it was, it was really few and far between. I can't say when I walked into the Oval Office for a meeting, if the president called me for something, if I was just working on something, minding my own business, that that was this overhang, it wasn't. And, uh, and I, I had a lot of support from family, extended family, friends, his friends, a lot of his friends. They just didn't understand what it was because he so adored me and so loved me and so loved our marriage.

32:55Do you think it was just the celebrity of it all? I don't know. I think you can have George on your podcast and ask him, but I don't know. I even hate to think about it, but I will say that when whoever wants to read Twitter over time, they'll see who was active and who was basically silent. I mean, to this moment, I'm not on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. I don't begrudge anybody who is. So no, look, I think when people go back and read, they'll see that I did not partake in the fighting. I just didn't. And I had to put the kids first and be a mother first. And maybe they're still too young to understand that.

33:33I don't need a gold star. I'm not judging anybody else's conduct here. I can only, you're responsible for yourself.

33:38Katie Miller:Did you ever think about stepping out from your job during that time period and just having it all go away? I did. I don't think it would have gone away. I did think about that. And then I worried, I worried about safety. I worried, I very, very much worried about safety. I felt like I was safe where I was. And I definitely was respected. I really also felt like I was safe. And you know what, Katie, I also love my work. This is such a beautiful country filled with amazing people. And you should not have these jobs in the administration, let alone the West Wing, unless you feel that way. Regardless of party, like you have to love the country so much.

34:12You're sacrificing time, your health and sleep, you're sacrificing money certainly, you're making so many sacrifices. You have to love the work and the people that it impacts. I call it the RPI, the real people impact. What are we doing?

34:25Katie Miller:I've heard you say that. But it's true. What are we doing and who is it helping and hurting? So there was that. Plus, I knew what would happen if I left. I was going to be flooded with offers for grossly overpaid speeches abroad like my predecessors in the West Wing who weren't as well-known and hadn't lasted as long were taken advantage of. So I said, well, my job worked for me also because I had a boss that was on my side and assigned me things and trusted me to do things that mattered and had consequence. But more importantly, he and his wife and the team, they supported me. And that's a different kind of support you get from your family, your friends, your children.

35:05My mother lived with us, thank God. God rest your soul. And I'll say this. I lived very close. We lived here. We moved the kids here as a family. They were in schools here. And so I also couldn't leave and uproot them all over again. That wasn't going to be fair. And even toward the end, everybody went to high school in different places because that was the choice we allowed, COVID times, et cetera. But no, I'll never understand if George, if I tried to talk about it, you know, George just really didn't want to talk about it or just yelled expletives about President Trump. That's fine. But I'm not here to trash him.

35:44I don't. I don't talk about him. I'm just amazed at all the people who never had any time for him or any relationship with him or didn't even bother to get to know Kellyanne Conway's husband in any meaningful way, elevated him in this way. And the Lincoln Project people using him and his name. He didn't take a penny from the Lincoln Project, not a penny. And the rest of them took lots of pennies. And what do they have to show for it? Donald Trump will be in the big house, never again in the White House. How's that working out, everybody? So they just don't get America.

36:17Katie Miller:No, he's, I mean, George is still doing that on X, right? Every day. I guess. I really don't know, to be honest with you. I suppose so. I assume so. I don't, I just don't live my life that way. I decided a very long time ago. Does it bother you that he still goes after like your friends and people in your life in a public way, even if you're not paying attention to it, you know, does that, it's not a reflection onto you, obviously, but, um, I mean, do you just pay it no mind that that's still happening? I pay it no mind. You're telling me things I don't even know. And I hope, I really feel others know that.

36:49Um, I mean, you and I were at a fun dinner last night that's totally private and quiet and you walk in, I never know if there's maybe four people or 40 people.

36:57Katie Miller:It was, I didn't know either. The point being like when I read these people saying, oh, DC is not fun anymore. And Donald Trump took the fun out. And I'm like, you just don't get invited to the right things. But, uh, you know, people don't hold me to account for his behavior. I know that because they're my friends. And, and also I just decided a very long time ago, Katie, but I especially remade that decision time and time again, when my children's other parent is so active online, I got to live my life offline, not online. And if I can give one piece of unsolicited advice to people is to do more of that.

37:29Offline just looks better, smells better, feels better, is better. And it's where life is truly lived and experienced. And so again, we all have to decide how we choose our time. And again, it's not about George or anybody else. It's just about we all have to choose how we spend our time. We all have the same 24 hours in a day. My kids need me. We don't have a week on, a week off. They live with me. the fancy new age word co-parent, just fine. I wish him well, et cetera. But I will say to the women out there, 50 years after my mom got no child support and no alimony, I didn't either because I didn't qualify for it.

38:1050 years after she didn't ask for it, didn't demand it, I didn't qualify for it. So it's a very funky time. And when people say, oh, we're all the same, and she's is like, okay, thanks for that. But anyway, but I mean, I'm happy and healthy and I hope George is. Certainly, he's the father of my children. We've been married for a very long time. He's the only

38:31Katie Miller:person I've ever married. But you stayed together throughout the entire administration and didn't divorce until the end. Was that intentional by you just to try to keep everything together for the kids? It was for, we certainly weren't together as a couple, but I, but it's, yes, I wanted to, I wanted at least to make sure everything else that we were dealing with came first. And I want to just also say something that I've said to my children very recently. Divorce is not a great thing. It's a terrible thing. That's not judgy. I am divorced. My mother was divorced. My father was divorced three times.

39:06I get it. But I want people to understand, like, it's got to be, for me, the choice of last resort. And when I say, Katie, that because I think a strong, healthy forever marriage is a beautiful thing. And when you say for better or for worse, that implicitly means you're going to tough things out for richer, for poorer in sickness and health, et cetera. You're going to tough things out. Things are going to get hard. Maybe your best day is your first day, your first year, your second year, but things are going to get hard, but you manage through them as a couple. And we did. We absolutely did that over time.

39:41bad health diagnoses, burying loved ones who we miss dearly, being there for each other, ups and downs professionally. Again, being the only two parents in the world, two people in the world responsible for these beautiful children. So we did that beautifully and for a very long time. So for me, for somebody who's telling you, as long as women feel like they're mostly products of the choices, not victims of the circumstances. I felt it was one of those rare times in my life where I was without a choice. I felt I had no choice but to file for divorce. And it's very sad for many reasons because it is the end of a relationship.

40:23It's the end of an institution. It's the end of, but I felt it was necessary. And I explained that to my kids. I don't want them to ever think that I anyway took that lightly or glibly or that the quote haters wander, whatever. I mean, these are miserable people. Have you seen these people? Terrible.

40:41Katie Miller:Terrified, terrible, thin, thin skin people. Yes. And I knew the toll that divorce had taken on my mom and other people in my life. It's not a, it's not a great thing. And so, but it was necessary. And I've come out on the other side, you know, very happy, very healthy. Is your relationship with him better now that you're divorced? It's fine. It's fine. We have these kids. They know that we're there for them. Did the kids get to choose who they spend their time with or where they go to school and keep things consistent? They do. They're old enough for that. They absolutely do. They're old enough for that.

41:16And we respect that. As I say, we've got two adults and one about to be, quote unquote, on her way to college, God bless her. And then the youngest one is almost 16. And so yes, they do get to choose that. And they know they are loved and respected and cared for. And I have to say, I'm an only child and George is an only child. I love that these kids have each other. Like it's not cliche to say the greatest gift I've given these kids is each other. They can fight like siblings and love like siblings, but they have each other forever. Sure.

41:48Katie Miller:So at the time when Claudia was posting a lot on the internet, you mentioned reporters messaging her for all of these stories. At home, I would say the biggest lesson that I want to learn from you is how you navigated that. Because I think in the age of media, in the age of TikTok, I ask myself all the time, when would I give my child a phone or how would I police that? And I think how you manage that is incredibly powerful for other moms going through a similar situation right now. So can you walk us through a bit of that time period? Yeah, but let me just start out with Claudia. I mean, objectively, I know I'm biased because I'm her mom and we're very close.

42:27If I showed you my phone right now, it's Claudia. Do you do the dead air conversations

42:32Katie Miller:now where you just sit on the phone all day? We do a lot. We do plenty of live air, dead air. I'm just, I am just astonished about the spectacular human beings that my four children are. They really are. And God bless them. Claudia is objectively beautiful and brilliant. She's entrepreneurial. She's smart. She's very generous and loving her. The time she spends in care and in service of the elders in our family is truly remarkable. But all four of my kids are remarkable. They're all individuals. I love them all equally and I respond to them individually. And Claudia needed a different kind of love and nurturing and response at that time.

43:13The idea, just so we're clear, the idea that anyone, let alone professionals in the media, could direct message your 15-year-old daughter and think it's okay is absurd. It's completely absurd. But these are the same people who think you can just hand a 14-year-old birth control or send, you know, pills to the front door along with the Amazon delivery drug to you. Give them hormones to change their gender. All of it. Thank you. All of it. And so I believe there ought to be some kind of standards. I'm not a big regulation gal, as you can imagine, a big limited government gal. But I think there should be some kind of standards and rules.

43:55It turns out there aren't any, Katie, not in this country, where what is the rule? Okay, so if you're 15 and you can't smoke, vape, drink, vote, get your ears pierced, see an R-rated movie, drive, you can't do a million things that every young woman wants to do because you're not of age yet. Imagine if it were, I don't know, and a lot of the female reporters got off the hook because they felt they were allowed to direct message a 15-year-old girl, whereas a male reporter might be seen as, what are you doing messaging a 15-year-old girl. The same thing you're doing. And the reporter who first outed her is our daughter.

44:31She's a basket case. And she's, I'm not even going to say her name because she's not worth it. And it turns out, you know, she cries on TV. She's been fired from three or four jobs. She once, as somebody showed me, she once, you know, had a mask on. She's like, I'm not going to even put it down for a sip of water for seven hours on my way to California or Seattle. It's like just Taylor Lawrence. Maybe. And anyway, just like when you dig into these people and then she has the audacity to come up to me at the Democratic convention. So we should I should come back for a sequel and go through that one.

45:04But again, like who are these people who are afraid of their shadows, have no idea what it's like to be a mother, have no idea what it's like to be. Grew up very privileged in Greenwich, Connecticut and went to boarding school in Switzerland. That's her. But she has not she has no idea about her life. None. And so, but I do blame other people. And people should say we should blame Claudia. She knew. Claudia's my daughter. And whatever I have discussed with Claudia and whatever we have done together and said together as a family or as a mother and a daughter, that's gonna stay between us. I bet I can go make$10 million today.

45:38Someone will give me an interview, a book deal. It ain't happening, folks. That's my daughter. And I am a mama bear. And we're not done here for a very simple reason because that shouldn't happen. And I really, you know, Claudia's got a million different things going on at all times. And she, as I say, but she, I have encouraged her to at least think about, you know, think about maybe starting a center for, you know, women and girls, or find a nonprofit that already exists that's not woke, that's, you know, very reasonable, really gets the money and the care to girls about their, about tech safety and all of that.

46:18And she's got some good claims on her hand.

46:21Katie Miller:She does. Does she see it now? Like what other people did to her? Well, Claudia's off social media. First of all, I had her on my podcast a year ago. I don't have that podcast anymore. I'm sorry. I had her on my Fox Nation show. And I think it was the most watched episode and the president's after that. He came on after that. So at that time, it was the most watched. And everybody can pull it up for themselves, Fox Nation. She was still 19. She was just almost 20 then. But the poise, it was 9-11. She lived near ground zero. Took her forever and a day to get there that day. The poise, the intelligence, the balance.

46:59She had gone to the Democratic convention. She said, I think young people are excited about Kamala Harris, but I don't put her on a pedestal. I just see her as someone who -

47:08Katie Miller:Are her politics still the same now? I don't know. I don't know. I think she's got, Claudia has a very strong will and a very open mind. Absolutely. My mom always said what I say to Claudia. My mom always said, you're going to have one just like you. And I, yes. But anyway, she is, you know, we're great. And people will come up to me and say, you know, some guy tried recently and I was on the phone with Claudia. Your daughter hates you. And I said, no, she doesn't. I said, do you want to talk to her? And I'm like, I don't need to explain to this pot-bellied middle-aged guy with clothes on from three days ago who's a big hot mess, what my life is.

47:48That's the thing. Katie, I want people to know that I said live offline, not online, but I want to go a step further. Motherhood is not performative. It's not, you don't execute and then get a result right away. Like you do it for all the incentives in our system and our culture now are almost the opposite of what motherhood does as a reward. The reward of motherhood is just in the doing, is in the everyday. I'm not a great cook, but I'm a consistent one. So I try to make for them, making sure you're there in the morning when they're leaving for school or taking them to school. Motherhood is about presence.

48:27And the irony for my job in the White House is because they're all under my roof and we live together, you can be present. You have to be present and patient. Everybody loves their kids. That's a natural thing. But the way you get peace and the way you get that connective tissue where they'll look you in the eyes and you can have conversations and, uh, is by being present and patient. And, uh, so I just, you know, we're telling our kids, you know, be, um, be honest and, and be hardworking and be generous and be kind, get enough rest and take care of yourself. And like, they need to see that on us first.

49:03They really do.

49:05Katie Miller:What did your other kids think of that time period? Like obviously when Claudia was posting a lot online, et cetera, I'm sure that took some toll on just going home and dealing with all of that. Like what were the other kids thinking, doing, feeling similarly to her? I don't want to characterize their feelings, except to say that this is a very strong family. Those are amazing kids who are all making their way in this world on their own timeline, in their own way. I know every parent says, I love you no matter what. Do what you want to do. Make your own mistakes. Make your own choices. Have your own successes.

49:41I guide them the best I can. They know they've got unconditional love and infinite support from me and from their other loved ones. so I will tell you that um we cherish you know our my kids cherish privacy they do they they cherish they cherish privacy and normalcy and uh I you know people say well then if you wanted them to have a normal life you shouldn't work in the White House oh did you say that to I guess you don't have to say to them because they hardly worked and hardly worked when they were there but I mean that's what the long weekend started on Tuesday night so in any event ended on Monday morning.

50:19Katie Miller:But I will say that they cherish privacy. And I know Claudia does too. Claudia, she tells me she's not on social media. She was very active on TikTok. People had a big following. They always wanted her opinion. They wanted her to write. She's worked in a couple of places that have paid her to do that. And she also, she sees what it is. And again, I think she's a really good arbiter. And I want to say this, you know, Claudia got what a lot of Americans want, a lot of girls want, which is attention and likes and money and fame and position. And we'll send a, we'll send a limo for you. Come on our TV show.

51:02Tell us more about your mom and dad. What are your mom and dad doing right now? Really? What are yours? What's your husband doing? Who's he with right now? So I'm going to ask them or maybe I already have. So, you know, but it's, look, Look, everybody says my kids are resilient. My kids are strong. That may be true. Folks, my kids are resilient. My kids are strong. I know it. I know it. And so a good for them. But look, we also, the president and the first lady and many others were absolutely lovely to us, to me the entire time. And if their father is posting about different people who I love and are friends of mine and in my life, I don't know it and I'm not responsible for it.

51:42and I certainly don't agree with it. Do I agree with his First Amendment? Of course. But it's just not how I choose to spend my time.

51:50Katie Miller:I would say that Claudia is, it's very impressive to take a step back from everything that was thrown at her and live, you know, and be strong and live a different life now because I think a lot of people want TikTok fame and then to have that continue on for years instead of stepping away from it. Yes. So your friends, friends come and go in life and I'm sure you've seen friends come and go the same way people have come in none of your life because of President Trump and other reasons. What's been, besides your marriage, probably some of the more, I would say, pertinent stories of friends who have either left it because of the divorce or left because President Trump?

52:28Well, I don't know that we had many friends in the marriage that didn't predate the marriage. And my friends are all offline friends. So I have the same friends I had from when I was in kindergarten. I was with my best friend this weekend at a Philadelphia Eagles game with my two younger daughters and her sons. My friend, the thing about my friends that I've chosen as family is they really don't care where I work and where I live and what I do and what I wear and how I look. They care about me and they are friends that I've chosen as family for my children. My children know they can rely upon them.

53:06I remember when Claudia first got a phone when She's younger. She said, Mom, my number one entry is aunt because you call everybody aunt. My cousins, obviously she calls aunt her godmother, Renee, my first cousin I'm close to, her brother, Jan, very close to, and their families. But all my extended friends who are so excited. They were so excited for me when President Trump won. They were so excited that they can come to the Easter egg roll of this, but they were super excited, not jealous. I think the only ones that are really no longer part of my life has nothing to do with divorce. It has more to do with where were they when all that was happening.

53:43And I would say two of them sort of confronted George, but in a nice way, like what's going on? How can we stop this train from barreling down the path? You know, you guys love each other and you have these kids and you have this whole life together. And what's, isn't that more important? But most people did what people do, many people, not most, many people did what I think this country does too much of, which is we suffer from an epidemic of looking the other way, Katie. We just look the other way like we never saw that. We don't see someone's pain. We don't see their needs. We don't see, I mean, we can go and whisper about it over there, but we pretend that we don't see it.

54:22So I think the couple of friends that I am no longer in contact with because of whoever's choice It doesn't have to do with politics. It has to do with the personal. It has to do with, look, I expect other teenage girls to be jealous of teenage girls. I don't expect their mothers to be. And that's just weird. And those are the, you know, that's just what happened. And look, we have privacy. Claudia has a twin brother. People don't even realize that half the time. He's Mr. MAGA, Mr. Privacy. he's exactly you know he and his friends here for the inauguration 10 12 deep at the house is really fun to see and at the why would rally and but what i love is not even like the excitement part of it i love how they discuss issues i didn't know half of what they know at the age of 20 and 19 um and it's great to hear that but it's your point about president trump and how politics has

55:22Katie Miller:just taken over a large swath of the country. Well, it has, but you know, Katie, people just, look, Trump derangement syndrome is real. There is no vaccine, therapeutic, or cure. It addles the brain. It shuts down your sense of humor. And it just obsesses, it becomes like an obsessive problem where everything is through the lens of Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. So, So yeah, but you know what? I think we take our cues from President Trump on that. He went through more than anybody, obviously, insulted, investigated, impeached, indicted, tried to imprison. I mean, just terrible what they did to him, his family, his business, all of it, his staff, his friends.

56:10and there he is. You know, that's a, it's a, it's a great American story about resilience and about not letting other people define you, about you thinking that there's a greater call, a higher purpose to your time here. And I remember when he was out of office and I would go visit him at Mar-a-Lago or we'd talk on the phone. I remember during one visit, I said, you know, you don't have to do that. We'd all love to have you back, but you don't have to. And the only reason I said it was because I care about him, you know, and so, and he doesn't have to, but he wanted to, and the country wanted them to.

56:40Katie Miller:So on the flip side of losing friends, who was or is still your best friend in the Trump administration? In the Trump administration? Oh, that's such a great question. I honestly have so many. Of course, I love the Millers and I've known you forever, danced at your wedding, which was unbelievable fun. Great stories from your wedding, actually, a lot of fun. And I say I'm very close to, ironically, very close to Brooke Rollins, Lyndon McMahon, Pam Bonney. These are friends that preceded their time in office, which is, you know, really exciting. But there are people like Kevin Hassett who were in both administrations who I consider a dear friend.

57:20I don't consider any of them not my friend. I consider, you know, there are people who maybe are more acquaintances or I didn't work with

57:27Katie Miller:someone from Trump one we're happy to leave behind. Oh my God. Dear. There's a lot of them. Yeah, I mean, I think, I hate to even say the names because it makes them relevant, but somebody just sent me his defense of this Jay Jones clown in Virginia who's running for attorney general who said he wishes that Tim Gilbert would have bullets in his head and his wife is evil and they're raising two little Nazis, etc., fascists. Vindman, the Vindman boys. I think people who betrayed the trust of the office. Again, you can change your mind about Donald Trump or the Republican Party, but you took an oath to just pretend that that no longer exists because people are throwing TV time at you or congressional seats or book contracts.

58:14So I'd say anyone like that. Definitely the guy who called himself anonymous, who should have remained anonymous. Miles Taylor. I know his name, but I like his anonymous name. No, I think he should have remained anonymous. But, you know, Katie, you live and you learn. And I think that everything from the first term, first of all, Locke got done. That doesn't get covered. He'll get credit for that later. But so much of it was building blocks for the future, too, where the president says, I know Washington better. I make my own personnel choices and decisions. And this is the team I have. But, yeah.

58:48Katie Miller:What's the most common question you get about your time in the Trump White House or President Trump that you get when you're just walking around? What does he really like? Tell us a funny story. And I always have so many that never disclose any private confidential moment. But I love that question because I immediately light up and I can share great stories. And what is he really like? I said he's exactly what you see on the camera now more than ever is who he is behind the scenes. But I like who he's not also. So we had four or five communications directors in the White House in the first term.

59:22and I remember at least, I think all of them, but at least all but one of them had come in and were recommending, like, I think the president should. I got a great idea. I got a great idea. What is it? I think he should, you know, go have ice cream with his grandchildren. At the time he had nine, now 11 grandchildren. And I'm like, oh, you can ask him. I don't think he's going to do that, but you can ask him. It's a nice idea. And he'd be like, I have ice cream with him all the time, but I don't need the press there. So I like all the things, you know. Just keeping it real. He shows us. But I even like the things that he doesn't do because they're performative.

59:54It's like a plastic politician. Like, and now I'm having ice cream with my grandchild. Sit on my lap, Skipper. So, yeah, no, that's the number one question I get. And I also get the question, why aren't you there? You know, but that's it. That's a choice I made my girls. I'm a single mom. I don't need a bake sale. No one's living out of a car. But my younger daughters are a senior and sophomore in high school. And I told the president, even during the campaign, you got to look at me the way you looked at Melania the last few years. she had a son in high school. And you know him, though. He's like, that's okay.

1:00:24Come when you can. And I'm like, no, we can't do that. But I so support the work of this administration. I'm trying to be an ally from the outside.

1:00:33Katie Miller:So I would say, I mentioned at the top of the show, but you're definitely a household name. I think a lot of people would know your picture and know exactly who you are. Especially, I would say, those odds go up in Washington, D.C. What's that like when you're sitting at a restaurant or with your kids and someone wants to come up and either say something positive or negative? And how do you handle it? It's mostly positive now. I'd say when I first moved to Washington, one out of seven or eight were downright mean or menacing. And I had 24-7 Secret Service because there are crazy people out there.

1:01:03And I'd say now it's one out of, my God, 90, 95. Most people, because honestly, those people are just stewing in their misery. They don't know what to say. They've said it all. They tried it all. They did it all. to change.

1:01:16Katie Miller:I would say that as well. Like when we go out, it used to be in the first room you get screamed at and this time people just leave you alone. Either leave you alone or it's people come up and they'll say, you know, may I, a lot of, may I take a picture? Um, oh my God, you're doing a great job. We love watching you on Fox or tell the president he's great. A lot of people these days, Katie, they come up to me in airports and wherever restaurants, they'll say, thank you. I'll say, oh, like, no, no, no. Thank you. You were there at the beginning. and we love him and you put up with a lot and that was not fair to you and your family.

1:01:50Thank you. The thing people really never say, and some of this city should, is I'm sorry. This is not a city that apologizes for very much. They just think they move on to the next quote news story and they decide what that is. And I know the difference between news and noise. I have a good nose for that. But no, most people are so lovely and I'm just surprised how many people, and I was walking with my son one day years ago. He's like, Mom, don't even bother. I had on the baseball hat and the sunglasses, the hair back. He's like, don't bother because then you talk because he knows I love to talk.

1:02:24He's got three sisters, God bless him, so we love to talk.

1:02:26Katie Miller:He knows exactly what you're going to say. And he's like, Mom, people hear and they know your voice. So if you're going to disguise yourself, you can't talk. But anyway, it's, no, people are lovely. And my kids put up a lot. Even at the Eagles game the other day, my youngest one is taking the pictures. People are like, can I take a picture with you now? You're an Eagles fan. I like you even more. And then once in a while, somebody will say something nasty. How do you handle that? Okay, so my MO is I never draw first blood. I always get the last word. I don't start it, but I know how it ends. I mean, I think there's a song about that or two.

1:03:02Katie Miller:I don't start shit, but I can tell you how it ends. Do you handle it differently when your kids are present versus if it's just you alone? Um, no, I just asked them what's, I said, I'm going to pray for you because I have no idea what has you so miserable today or just generally. Um, you look super unhappy and they're like, you know, then they'll say Trump alternative. And I, I'm so sorry. I will pray for you. And I do. And I do learn to pray for them because honestly, what has anybody that miserable? Um, just hate, you know, that old saying, hate corrodes the container in which it lives. You could just almost feel it from some people.

1:03:40Now, people can have a difference of opinion, but that's not the way they approach it, as you and Steven know. They can say, listen, I disagree with you. I get that from plenty of people. I disagree with you, but you're really good at what you say. I disagree with what you say, but you're really fluid in what you say.

1:03:52Katie Miller:It's not how it goes. But it's not the way it goes. And they just think - It's like, I worked at USAID. And I'm like, okay, thank you for this time. But also, people think they know you and they think they have a right. You know, people think they have a right to your space, to your time. And they also think they have a right to say whatever they want to you because they do at home in front of the TV. But it's, listen, it's been a good lesson. I think my, my, I hope one of the lessons my children have learned from all of it is to treat everyone the same and with respect, not just look the other way.

1:04:25And like when people want to take the time and stop and talk and like, thank you so much. I will pass it on. That's so nice of you. Thank you so much. I always say he loves you too. You know, they tell a president, he loves you too. I promise you he does. And the kids will listen. And then we move on to the next thing. But I also, I remember one of them asking one time, like, mom, did you have to give that woman five minutes? She just kept saying the same thing over and over again. I said, you know what? I did. Like she just seemed, she wanted to say it and she was shaking a little and she got excited that she's able to tell somebody who maybe can do something about it.

1:05:00Like, yes, I did. It's nothing. So yeah.

1:05:03Katie Miller:Um, what's life like for you post, I would say post white house, post divorce. What are you up to now? Is there any love on the horizon? Happy, healthy, enjoying my work. Um, the kids are, you know, the kids are very independent, but they're your kids. So they need you. And I feel that 16, 18, 21, these are not magic numbers in my family, and I'm glad for that. When I was growing up, people were 18s. I'd go off to college, trade school. They get married at 21, have kids at 22, 23. It's very different now, and I love this era of my relationship with my children, too, my individual relationships, let alone with them together.

1:05:43We try to travel as a family. I try to do things with them individually. That part, I really love. It's so nourishing, and you have to be present to be able to do that. I can't be in the West Wing at 7.30 in the morning and do that. And so we're 11 o 'clock at night. But yes, I'm taking care of myself. The president called me the other night about something. He said, let me just start out, but he does this every time. Let me start out by saying, I don't know what you're doing or what you're doing, like what's going on, but you look great. You ought to bottle it up. You look great. So I think I am rested.

1:06:16I am happy. I think I wore on my face a lot of, you know, the stressors of what was happening in my marriage and my family because I didn't understand it. And I'm the problem, you know, I solve problems for a living and I make things happen. And you want to be the protector and the supporter and the love generator for the entire family unit. And I really wanted to make that work. I wanted that to be protected and restored. And so, um, but yes, there is, look there, I am, I'm content doing very simple things too. My life has had a lot of big highlights in them and I still do that. I travel for work.

1:06:57I travel for fun. I, uh, but I, I'm, I'm also just happy doing very simple things. And I find a lot of peace and fulfillment in that. If a friend just wants to come over or we, you know, I call it a night early or we watch a movie, whatever it is, like there's all these big highlights. And I think people almost feel, again, performative. Here's what I'm eating. Here's where I am. Here's what I remember taking the kids to Greece and we were at the Parthenon and somebody said it's the most photographed thing on Instagram. I'm like, but why? And like, I noticed everybody's just taking a picture to say I was here instead of like learning about it, like listen to the tour guide.

1:07:36And so I'm just, I'm honestly trying to absorb life. And we've had some, you know, the elders in my family, these women who raised me and a couple of other friends, his family, extended family, they've passed away in the last couple of years alone. And that's been really hard for my kids. So I try to be there for them. Very hard for me, obviously, but very hard for my kids who had been raised around the elders and understand that whole world. Um, and when they come back to my childhood home. I was raised very modestly, but filled with love. And I had abundance in everything that matters most. I didn't know what I didn't know.

1:08:10And my childhood room is now a hallway between the existing rancher where I grew up and the addition that we put on to have a couple extra bedrooms when we visit. So I know they see that and they know that too. So no, my life is very happy. And I feel like I do have time for friendship and exercise and clients. on the horizon? I've been dating a guy for a while and he's very special. And the president, I've never actually revealed the video, but the president met him and said, it called him handsome stud in front of 800 people. I think you were there. It was very funny. He's like, he's a handsome stud.

1:08:48I hadn't heard that phrase in a while. It's very, very apt. No, he's very good to me and very patient with the fact that I have many, many, my heart is filled for my kids.

1:09:01Katie Miller:Where did you meet? So we met at a conference in the South of France. Claudia was with me, but we didn't start dating for a very long time, like a year plus probably because, because I was married. I was not fully divorced and I wouldn't have done that. And I think he had girlfriends or something, but in any event, But we, yeah, we just click and we're the same age. And he has, you know, he's learned to love Washington as well. And he, you know, may or may not go into the government. That's his choice and his decision. But those options are there for him, which is great. So, yeah, it's been nice to see each other's worlds also.

1:09:44And he has really, I think he's a great example, Katie, of someone who did not know Washington well and was a Wall Street guy and the Miami guy, Miami guy, and grew up in Maryland. But when you see Washington at this age and stage, it's an exciting place. And I hear that all the time from some of the cabinet secretaries and their spouses. Like, wow, I really love Washington. It's so walkable. It's so much fun. The food is unbelievable. The people are nice.

1:10:14Katie Miller:It's now safe again. It's now safe again. It is beautiful. I told the president, I probably live in an area with more protesters than people who need, you know, you saw the National Guard. I said, but you've made it safe and beautiful and more beautiful for everyone. And especially those in need who are not the protesters. Do you ever take a step back and think of, if you were to describe, I would say your last eight years of your life and be like, holy shit, she did it. Like, how is she so strong? Like, how is that person so strong? When you're like, she was a counselor to the president. She was constantly on TV.

1:10:47Katie Miller:She had secret service to to protect her security. She was going through a very public divorce, marriage, was a parent to four kids at the same time. You're like, holy shit, how did I do it? When you actually take a step back through the looking glass. No, because I need to stay humble. And I think as long as you have some sense of humility and gratitude for what you do have and what you have done and a sense of wonder and adventurousness, which I have still. No, I'm really, I guess I'm proud, but I think I'm really pleased and I'm grateful. And I'm mostly grateful to God for seeing me through all of it.

1:11:28I'm most grateful to God for seeing me through all of it. But I'm very grateful to my children and my loved ones also. And look, I'm grateful to George for giving me, which was a loving marriage and these four wonderful kids and also sort of the grace and the space to see when things aren't working and have ended in the way that no one that I had never intended. So, but you know, Katie, I think because of the way I was raised, I will always be that much more in awe of people who do great things every single day and don't realize it and don't get recognized or respected or even acknowledge it to themselves that, you know, I did it with resources.

1:12:14I did it with, I know the president of the United States. I worked for him. I have, you know, I've got resources. I can fall back on things and I'm older. I look at the people, it had to be really hard for people like my mom in the 70s and 80s to be a single mom, even though she had family support. It had to be super hard for my two grandmothers who had true like health injuries that compromised mobility and never complained about anything. So no, it's pretty cool. And that's the one thing, I mean, people need to take from this story, not politics. They have to take from the story strength and resilience, not just of me, just of America.

1:12:55We're going to celebrate America 250 next year. And I really hope folks can put aside whatever the this, the that, and the other is, and just applaud the fact that a country this young, you go into museums and churches and around the world, and they're hundreds of years older, a thousand years older than our country, and that you appreciate the freedoms that we have and our daughters have, that they don't have in other girls and women don't have in other countries. You just, the fruits and the blessings. And so I am very, I'm always very aware of that. And without that, I think I could be bitter or resentful or self-congratulatory.

1:13:34So I think once in a while, when one of my children says something that borders on commendation or an attagirl about the work I've done, it's so much more meaningful to me than almost anything because it means that they saw that and it matters to them. And they think that's cool. I remember asking, um, one of them and I were having a conversation, one of my daughters, not that long ago. And I said, did you ever mind that mommy worked? Would you have preferred? And she said, absolutely not, because that's who you are. And you gave us a great example and you always say it's to support yourself and you know, you're, you're there when we need you, et cetera.

1:14:11And so the answer is not to say, oh yeah, stay at home moms. The answer is to say, that's the choice you made and that's how we know you. Maybe they'll make a different choice. Um, but no, I'm glad, And I'm glad that I, listen, you don't know what you're made of until you're really tested. That is true. And they've, you know, put us all through the wringer. All right.

1:14:31Katie Miller:So now we're going to play a lighthearted game. Oh, four. Would you rather? We've played this on every single episode of the K-Miller podcast. Okay. Would you rather have a reality show made about your family or a docuseries made about your career? Oh, what's option C? probably a docuseries about my career just because I don't want the first one we already had that yeah so I would like it I'd like it to be that because I'd like people to see the arc of the career it didn't start when I was 50 in 2017 it started long before that would you rather run a campaign for Kanye West or Anthony Weiner Anthony Weiner and I'd make sure he lost perfect would you rather do karaoke night with Sean Spicer or a dance-off with Sarah Sanders dance-off with Sarah Sanders.

1:15:15And I've done it, haven't we?

1:15:18Katie Miller:Would you rather do another four years of daily cable news hits from the White House or one year running focus groups with nothing but teenagers? That is brilliant. Since I do the latter all the time as a second job, I would say, actually, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do the focus group with teenagers for a year. And I'll tell you why. We pick on the kids so much as adults, like, oh, they're on their phones. Oh, they don't look at us. It's like everywhere I turn, Katie, adults are on their phones. Their parents and grandparents are on the phones. It's not just the kids. I think there's great wisdom with these kids.

1:15:50And I think technology is our native tongue. We can learn a thing or two from them. I'm doing the focus groups.

1:15:54Katie Miller:Would you rather moderate a debate between your ex-husband and President Trump or take art lessons from Hunter Biden? I'm going to – I don't want to do anything with Hunter Biden. And so I'm going to moderate a debate between, yes, my ex and our current president. I love that. What shows are you binging right now? I'm terrible about watching TV. I watch things late and people make fun of me. They're like, well, you're watching that for the second time. Or like Breaking Bad, I watched last year for the first time. My cousin's like, you're doing the third time. And I'm like, no, it's my first. I binge watched Your Friends and Neighbors recently with Jon Hamm.

1:16:28I like that. It's very clever. And I'm trying to binge watch a couple other things. But honestly, it's terrible for me to tell you that I don't watch a lot of TV.

1:16:39Katie Miller:What's the last book you've read? the last book I reread was um oh we should probably shouldn't talk about that okay the last book I read was believe it or not Mike Waltz's hard truths when he got the job as national security advisor I've been sitting on my desk for a long time there's two on there's two on my desk for a long time that I had breezed through and not read enough one is by Kevin Rudd who is the ambassador to Australia ambassador to the U.S. and he talks about China he's a China he's a Sino expert and he talks about the U.S. and China. I had dinner with him recently. Yes, great guy.

1:17:14Familiar. Love the book, actually. It's very prescient and smart. And then The Hard Truths by Mike Waltz, because I wanted to understand, you know, I knew him as a congressman, then I knew him as National Security Advisor. I know him as a father and a husband. But I didn't really, I wanted to see the arc of his career from Green Beret, like what inspires people who are in the military to then run for office and then do what he's doing now. He's at the U.N. So those happen to be the two on my nightstand.

1:17:39Katie Miller:What's your biggest irrational fear? My biggest irrational fear is fire. What's your daily routine look like? My daily routine is I'm up very early. That comes from having dogs when I was single whose bladders don't know what time it is and then they sleep the rest of the day and then being a mother. So my daily routine is to get up maybe an hour before everyone else, exercise if I can, 20 minutes on the peloton. I don't have patience for 30 but do that a couple times a week, lift weights once or twice a week and get breakfast ready for the kids. Read as much as I can. So I read a lot of news before I go to sleep because now you can read tomorrow's news.

1:18:17Instead of a recap, you're actually getting a preview. And then I tend to read my favorite newspapers, maybe scroll through Twitter, but not as much anymore because I'd rather just go right to the newspapers. And then I do what moms do. I make sure everything is ready, laundry, the dishes, et cetera. And then I start my work. I like to get ahead of that. There are things at night I'm trying to do and I'm like, I'm a little too tired for that to be as cogent as it needs to be. Let's shelve it till the morning. I like to get ahead of that. And I put on, I learned, I watch business, a lot of business news.

1:18:56I put on Fox News, of course, Fox and Friends, but I watch a lot of business, Fox Business also, because I really like to learn about that. And then I'm with my kids. I talk to all four of them in the morning. Two of them are there, sometimes three.

1:19:11Katie Miller:Do you cook dinner at night? I do. Best meal you cook? They would say filet mignon. Sear it first, then grill it. I think anything Italian is still my best one just because I grew up learning that. you know, chicken parm or homemade meatballs or all of that, lasagna. They also tend to like my salmon. I did that last night before I saw you at dinner. It's like I ate dinner and then went out. But yeah, I don't think I'm a great cook, but I'm a consistent cook. I like them to smell it and know it's going to be there and they look for it. Do you believe in gentle parenting or FAFO parenting? You know, that happened to me once at Stephen Colbert, like 22 years ago, before I was a parent.

1:19:53He was interviewing me for The Daily Show and he said, if I were a candidate, do you think I'd get the milfo? And I didn't know what that was. So you guys can laugh at that again.

1:20:04Neither. I mean, gentle. I can be gentle. The FAFO, no, I don't do that. We have rules and I don't like laziness or disrespect or not just disrespect toward me or toward a parent or toward, but toward an assignment or toward a teacher or toward someone on social – disrespect your own space. So no, I think I've learned to be much more gentle in that. I think teenagers particularly and tweens, there's a lot going on. And if you're not gentle and they don't feel comfortable talking to you, they won't.

1:20:44Katie Miller:Favorite White House event? my favorite white house event was the annual i have two um i think the easter egg roll was my favorite white house event just because my kids were those ages and they so enjoyed it and we were able to open that up to the world like people would call me and say do you think i can get tickets to the white house egg roll do you think it was the faberge egg do you think i couldn't somebody would somebody would write me a letter and draw me pictures. I'm seven. I've always wanted to go to the other seven. And to be able to open that up to everyone was exciting to me. My favorite event, though, was probably when my beloved Philadelphia Eagles did not come last minute for the championship.

1:21:28They had RSVP'd. 82 people had cleared their credentials and their information for Secret Service. That's a fact. And then many of them weren't going to come any longer because of a change the NFL made in their rules in the offseason. And so we converted into a Celebrate America event. So everybody still came. And many of the Eagles fans were coming and saying, we like the Eagles, but we really love the president. We came anyway. And it just turned into a really terrific event. And I would say probably anything having to do with the military, anything having to do with what we would have. And Stephen would be at many of these, obviously.

1:22:05Angel moms and dads. I don't know if I want to call them an event. But when we had them in round tables and all, you really feel the impact, the consequence of why you're there and how it does matter who the president is at any given time.

1:22:20Katie Miller:Our last question of this episode is, if you could host a dinner party with three people, dead or alive, who would be at the table and what are you eating? Alive. Oh, because I would have picked Jesus Christ, my grandmother. I said dead or alive. Oh, dead or alive. Oh, Jesus, definitely. I have questions and he does too of me. Jesus Christ, my grandmother Antoinette, and I'll pick one. What are we eating? I would say for that we would eat a whole array of things. I would say the table would be filled. It'd be more like a buffet. It'd have to be more like a buffet. I'm a condiment queen. I love a lot of stuff on tomato sauce probably.

1:23:02I put it on everything though. I mean, I put it on everything. I probably have like six, seven condiments on the thing. So we call it gravy at home because we were Italian. So yeah, that would be, I would really, I was very close to my grandmother's, but my maternal grandmother helped raise me in the house. And it's when she died, I didn't even cry because we had that kind of relationship where we had said everything I wanted her to the very last moment. She, her kidneys were failing. And I called this guy who I'd gone out on a date with, and he was a nephrologist. He was studying to be at the time and I called him and he said, oh, it's so great to hear from you.

1:23:38I'm like, I'm sorry I never called you back. Like last year, a year and a half ago, I said, but my grandma's kidneys are failing. Can you help me? I wanted her to, so I had nothing more to say or do then because we had such a beautiful, honest, loving relationship of 32 years. But now that I've been a mom and now that I've been married And now that I'm in my late 50s, I would want to talk to her all over again and get her unbelievable advice. So one of her daughters, my Aunt Rita, is still with us. And my cousins, like I said, her other grandchildren are with us. And so that would be it. And Jesus, I feel very at peace with being a Roman Catholic.

1:24:19But I'm a flawed one, raising four flawed ones. And I think I would actually want to hear directly from the source how we're, you know, if you had the founding fathers here today and say, do you believe the way they're interpreting the Constitution or not? I think I would do the same with Jesus about the Bible and I would do the same about the modern Catholic religion. Thank you for joining. Thank you for having me.

1:24:43Katie Miller:Thank you for watching this episode of the Katie Miller podcast. Please don't forget to like, subscribe, follow, share. We're available every single Monday night, 6 p.m. Eastern, where you get your podcasts. Thanks so much. Thanks for joining this episode. We'll see you next week.