Episode 4 - Joe Gebbia | The Katie Miller Podcast

28:00And so I'd go into the village with him. It was a very remote village, by the way. Like hundreds of people, you know, like very small.

28:07Katie Miller:And you're like, this is what I do for New Year's Eve? this is like my kind of near-sieve trip yeah um and so it's like a five-day trip and uh we go into people's homes and like it's he does some ceremony to honor a deceased relative with their shrine in their home and i'm just i'm there like am i supposed to be here right now you know it was like you give me access to these these things um we went to an onsen together which is my first experience at a Japanese bathhouse and so I'm watching him in the locker room he takes his shirt off, he takes my shirt off takes his pants off, take my pants off he strips down, I strip down I'm like alright, I'm all in here so we walk into the the kind of bathhouse area, we get into one of the plunges and all, it's pure silence, I'm the only you know, westerner probably for many miles and all you can hear is the drip from like the faucet into this big pool.

29:08It's steamy. It's hot. And he breaks the silence and he goes, Josan, what is your soul's vitamin? The kind of thing only a monk would ask you.

29:22Katie Miller:What's your soul's vitamin? Yeah. It's a great question. What's the answer? Well, it took me a while to figure it out. But at that time, at that cycle, like that phase of Airbnb, I was leading the product team. my soul's vitamin was how do I help my team do the best work of their life? You know, like what would it look like if that year people would come back to me and say, Joe, like I as an engineer, software engineer, as a designer, as a PM or researcher, actually do the best work in my career. And so it became my mission that year to figure out how do I create an environment for my people, my team to have that experience.

30:04Katie Miller:So I have two follow-ups for you. What's your Airbnb pick? A tree house, a yurt, or a glass dome? Tree house all the way. Come on, who doesn't want to feel like a kid again? You don't want to be like a yurt though, like looking under the star? Like that would be the two. Maybe, you know, I think I like what I call budget time machines. Things that like quickly bring you back to feeling like a kid. For me that's like a swing set. So if you could turn one national landmark into an Airbnb, which one are you picking? Lincoln bedroom. Without a doubt. So which brings us to what are we doing here in Washington, D.C.

30:41Katie Miller:And how did the guy who sold Obama owes get himself into the Trump White House? At what point did you know in the last election that you were like, I want to help President Trump? Was it Bobby Kennedy and your love for Maha? Like, what was it? Was it that Silicon Valley all getting behind President Trump this election? was there one moment what was it um I think there were a lot of moments um you know as as a as a young democrat you know in college I think I first voted for Al Gore back in the day the first time I could actually vote I can't believe you admit to that well I mean what I was 18 in art school in Providence like that's not a particularly you know conservative place anyway Anyway, I've been on my journey.

31:28Everyone's been on the journey. And I think through, you know, certainly Bobby Kennedy and supporting him and being so grateful for the work that he's doing, to be somebody who just cares so much about the health of our nation and, you know, has no ties to industry and is really just able to bust through walls and sort of like right-size the ship, I'd say. I grew up in an alternative medicine, health, food household. Credit to my mom for...

32:09Katie Miller:The original Maha mom? The original Maha mom, yes. She was in the early 80s beating the drum. And so I grew up in a very weird household. like you know your vegetarian macrobiotic in fact which is like even more like weird version of vegetarian um explain that for a second acrobotic yeah it's like a Japanese version of vegetarianism okay so it's like very specific um in the way that's you cook things and a lot of legumes i would say like explain it for the viewers but i also explain it for myself yeah yeah um take like the fringe of being a vegetarian and like that's that. So it'd be like we were growing up in the South, going to my friend's houses for like hot dogs and hamburgers and like I can't eat it.

32:54Everyone's like, why can't you have a hot dog?

32:56Katie Miller:Did your mom like do the 80-20 rule or you were like going to kids' parties not eating the Domino's pizza? I didn't have the Domino's pizza, especially if it had pepperoni on it. So anyway, so like she instilled this idea that like just very simple ideas that like you know your health is based on the quality of your cells and your cells, the health of your cells is based on the food that you put in your body so if you bring bad things in then you can lead to bad cells and enough bad cells leads to disease and you know she kept me off antibiotics you know for forever I was probably like 18 until I had antibiotics Are you vaccinated?

33:38The basics you know she yeah she did an amazing job educating us and just helping us understand like the quality of food that you put in in terms of I think the quality of your health and so you know fast forward to Bobby Kennedy it's like he's you know saying that at a national stage you know of why don't we correct our health and move from what I believe of what he calls sick care which is the world we live in today into what probably should be what you call healthcare, which is about the preventative stuff, about living a healthy lifestyle, about exercising, about eating the right foods. And so huge supporter of him, and just been so excited to see his ascendance into the...

34:32Katie Miller:But going from Bobby Canning to President Trump is a bit of a jump. Yes, of course. So other things that influence this. early I think it was early 2021 mid 2021 the activity at the border caught my attention and I just remember thinking what's going on with this topic it seems as if there's no border and as it got worse that year I felt like I needed to understand this problem more so I reached out to my friends largely on the democratic side of the house at all levels, from the highest level all the way down, and had conversations just trying to piece together, like, hey, what am I missing about this?

35:17Fill me in. And I got some answers, but felt unfulfilled. And so I've been lucky enough to call Josh Kushner, one of my close friends, for a long time. We met at an Allen conference many, many years ago, and the two youngest guys in the room were like, who are you? Let's hang out. And so through him, I've gotten to know Jared. And so I get on the phone with Jared. He's like, can you help me fill in the gaps for me? Like, what am I missing here? Is this normal? Like, it seems there's no enforcement of our own border. Like, don't nations need borders to be a nation? Kind of. And so he put me on this, I'd say this curriculum of just talking to experts in the field.

36:02and I remember like just being like holy cow this is this is crazy like this is this is not right this is this is a real problem and there's there's no reason why we shouldn't be enforcing the laws of our country and and our border um and so I think as I started pulling that thread I sort of, you know, began to look at other topics and eventually came to the point where I don't think I can support, you know, a political party that wants to have an open border, that lets in, you know, criminals and dangerous people in their country. This is something I can get behind.

36:46Katie Miller:And so when Elon said he was doing Doge, what is it at that point that you were like, I want to give this a shot and try working in the federal government and redesigning retirement, which is where you spent your time. Not many people get out of bed in the morning. They're like, you know what I want to do today? I want to redesign retirement. That's it. I don't think a lot of people say that. So I came for Bobby Kennedy's confirmation hearings in late January. And Elon sends me a text. He says, hey, here in town, do you want to come by and hang with the Doge team? and I thought, yeah, why not?

37:22So I changed my flight and hang out with the team for a day and I was blown away. Because up until this point, the idea of what I prefer is like Silicon Valley speed. You move fast, you ship things, you just move quickly. That never to me corresponded with DC. DC in my mind is never really attractive to me because it just has the stereotype of being slow and bureaucratic and hard to get stuff done. And so hanging with the Doge team, I was like, okay, well, this is an interesting entry point with which to potentially bring some of the spirit of Silicon Valley to getting things done quickly. And so throughout the day, I was asking people, so you're going to rebuild that system.

38:15Who's designing the interface for that? And I couldn't get a straight answer. People were like, well, we don't have anybody. And by the end of the day, they go, do you want to come on board and help us with that?

38:25Katie Miller:Do you want to also take this unpaid free job? I was like, guys, guys, thank you. But I have a lot of plans this year. I live in Austin. And just kind of thanks, but no thanks. And then on the flight back, I contemplated. And I thought, hmm, this is actually a once-in-a-lifetime moment. Were you back a week later or two weeks later? You have a president who cares about this with Elon spending time on this. And I just realized this is truly a once-in-a-lifetime moment in history. And I thought, no, I'll give it six months. And I called him back and I said, great, we've got this problem. And it has to do with a mine.

39:15I'm like, what? A mine? And so sure enough, of course.

39:19Katie Miller:So Elon called you saying he has a problem with a mine. Yes. And you're the only man who can fix the mine. I'm sure there were others. But I thought this is a weird problem. And I love solving problems. So why not? Let's go for it. So throughout fixing federal retirement, which now you've gotten a process down from how many years to how many days? Well, we're about to announce that. So we'll have that announcement very soon. Okay, what's the quickest you've done a federal retirement? We've done it in days. What did it used to be? Six months, up to six months. Okay. And when you talk to those middle managers, and now you're able to help them do their job better, what do they say to you when you're coming in from the outside?

40:00Katie Miller:They don't know you. They've been doing this for years. What do they say to you? Well, the federal government has been trying to solve retirement for federal employees for over 20 years. This goes back to the Bush administration in 2002, 2003, which is that retirement happens on paper. And so paper takes a long time to move around. It's ripe for errors. People miss signature fields and form fields. So every administration has tried to solve this problem over the years to digitize the process. Unsuccessfully, collectively,$100 million is spent on contractors that have never delivered. presidents have ended up just throwing more headcount on the problem to speed it up not very scalable solution and so you know when this landed on my lap it's like well i actually had no idea how we were going to do it i remember the first meeting and i was like what did i get myself into like i actually have no concept of how this is actually to come together But sure enough, working highly collaboratively with the careers in retirement services and building up trust over the months, eventually we cracked the code and have digitized it where now every retirement in the government takes place online as of August 1st of this year.

41:22The careers, I think they're over the moon. I think they're just very happy that a group of people showed up. I brought in some top tier tech talent, top tier design talent for my network. And collectively we were able to do the impossible.

41:42Katie Miller:So Elon left Doge in May, we are now in August. So walk me through the transition from what Doge was and what you were doing to your meeting last week in the Oval Office with President Trump. So while I've been fixing retirement, I've also been getting reached out to by cabinet secretaries, directors of agencies saying, Joe, can you please help? I heard you're on campus. My agency website and experience needs redesign. It's out of date. It's clunky. Can you breathe some Airbnb spirit into it? And so I think over the last couple months, I've been getting all this demand. I'm thinking, all right, this is interesting.

42:30I'm inclined to say yes, I like these challenges, but I think this needs to be a bigger thing. This can't just be like doing one website at a time. Like what if this was a much bigger idea? What if this was an idea around a national movement, presidential movement anointed by the president to really upgrade the interface to society.

42:55Katie Miller:There's no one who cares about design more than President Trump. I know, which is what's so interesting. It's like, we have somebody who cares about presentation, cares about the way things look, because that matters. And so, you know, the gears started to turn and I started to think, well, maybe there's a bigger idea. And so I put together what has been called, the president's calling America by Design, which is this national initiative to beautify and improve the usability and the aesthetics of the websites and experiences of Americans. And Katie, if you think about it, as we continue to be more online as a society, the front door to the US government, it's It's not a building.

43:43It's a website or an app. It's a browser or a phone. That's how people are experiencing our government. It's not walking into the lobby of a building somewhere. Sure that happens but that's not the majority of how people consume or interact with their government. And so why wouldn't we treat our websites the same way we would do with the care of a nice lobby with beautiful lighting, you know, polished floors.

44:08Katie Miller:What was your example about graffiti that you gave the president? Oh yeah, it's like the big push with him and Stephen Miller two weekends ago to clear graffiti out of DC, to beautify DC. It's kind of like when an American goes to a.gov website and the usability is below average, the aesthetics are below average. To me that's like graffiti on the public. And so America by Design is going to clean up the digital graffiti. So the president signed an executive order designating a chief design officer of the United States, and our first chief design officer is you. What does that mean to you to be the first chief design officer where the position didn't even exist?

44:53Katie Miller:Would you call this like the third startup? Maybe. I'm honored. It's a real privilege. I'm going to do my best to make government websites as usable as they are beautiful. and really, really upgrade our nation to the level of excellence that I feel like the United States deserves. So you said that you always knew D.C. was slow and bureaucratic, and that's why you don't want to come here. Obviously it is, right? We're not going to dispute that it's not. But what's been the other most surprising part of now being in the D.C. ecosystem compared to the Silicon Valley ecosystem? One thing that comes to mind is it's kind of like San Francisco in that it's somewhat of a monoculture.

45:37Like if you're in NSF, it's for tech. If you're in D.C., it's for politics. So everyone can commiserate with each other on similar topics.

45:45Katie Miller:When you're working at Airbnb, it's about your shareholder value, right, or delivering for profits. But when you're doing America by Design and, say, Doge and working for President Trump, it's about the public's perception of what you're doing. How are you more responsive or different responsive, I would say, differently responsive to consumers, given that it's not a private company? but very much a public one. Well, you know, I think with America by Design, it's thinking about what does it look to bring consumer-grade experiences to the government with the American people as the consumer. Like the same way Airbnb thinks about it or any tech company that creates a consumer product.

46:31You have to constantly be updating. You have to constantly be iterating. constantly responsive to the customer. And so I'm excited because I think we have an opportunity to actually treat these digital experiences the same way you treat a consumer app.

46:49Katie Miller:So what's your first website that you're redesigning? We're working on a couple already. Is it recreation.gov? We're working on a couple already. There's a lot of very excited cabinet members who are finally getting upgrades to some very outdated experiences. Did you know, in my research, there's over 7 ,000.gov websites, over 26 ,000 portals. How many should be shut down? That's not for me to determine right now, but the top nine websites in the government, from the IRS all the way down, have every single month 157 million Americans going to them. Think about that. Imagine 157 million Americans walking into a building.

47:36You would make sure that building is spotless. You would make sure that building is well attended. It's got, you know, it has all the details figured out. Because that is the impression that you're leaving on America, on Americans. I think this is a historic time in our nation from a chance to upgrade. And the other thing I learned throughout all this is this happened once before under a different administration. President Nixon in the early 1970s created a federal beautification project, also a national initiative, to upgrade the government to the design standards of that era. So obviously this is pre-internet.

48:18So they hired the best graphic designers of the time. Then they came through Washington. Charles Eames, one of my heroes, was a part of this and actually contributed. And I think that goes to show that when there's a presidential national initiative to do this kind of work, it does attract the best and brightest of our time.

48:35Katie Miller:It's no secret that President Trump is a polarizing figure. What has that been like for you in your personal life going from Silicon Valley, which is predominantly Democrat, to moving into a very public role in President Trump's administration? I mean, I can only speak for myself, which is, you know, you lose friends, you lose, you know, people who don't want to speak to you anymore just because of your political views. What's that experience been like for you? It was pretty unpleasant at first. You know, if you go back to February when I got involved, there were a lot of people who were neutral, a lot of people who were positive, and then equal amount of people who were just hateful.

49:15And I remember thinking, like, ah, you know, if it's a stranger on the internet calling you, you know, something, it's not a big deal. but if it's somebody that you worked with for a long time, it hits different. It's like the fact that I was working on fixing retirement in the government to help the 100 ,000 people who retire every year have a better experience. The hate mail text messages that I got was disheartening, to say the least. And then eventually, you know I guess that was my first experience with like it being so intense and so it was it was just depressing for some period of time and then eventually it transitioned to uh I liken it to like a bee sting it's like that kind of hurt like a few hours later it's gone do you still

50:11Katie Miller:hang out the same people in the same social circle or has that changed because of your affiliations by and large I think it's it hasn't changed the core groups the same certainly on the fringes Maybe that's changed a little bit. So your success. We're going to get into the fun section now. It would not be the Katie Miller podcast without taking a little bit of a left turn or a right turn, whichever you're going to call. You're an elite club of about 2 ,800 billionaires worldwide. How many other? 2 ,800. 2 ,800. Yeah. That's what the internet says. How has money changed you? I hate this question.

50:48Katie Miller:Yeah. And you're going to answer it.

50:53I don't know. It's allowed me to give a lot of money away, which is like a joy. You know, one thing I've been able to do is because of my timeline in life changed as a result of discovering the work of Charles and Ray Eames, as I mentioned in college, I started the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. And so this is a nonprofit to steward the legacy of Charles and Ray into the future.

51:18Katie Miller:What's been the most rewarding thing you've given money to? The first time I fully funded a scholarship at RISD. The minute I had money to do that, I was like, that was, first thing I did, back up, first thing I did is get off my car loan. What was the car at the time? VWGTI. Okay. Second thing I did is, you know, it was always a stretch. I felt like I put unnecessary pressure on my parents with sending me to a private design school and the burden that that was for them Always in the back of my mind was like man one day. I can't wait to pay them back and so I I literally cut him a check and pay them back for college and that was That was one of the most special moments in my life where I just felt like Wow, thank you for trusting me investing me whatever you want to think about it.

52:13Katie Miller:What they do with the money Well, they paid off the mortgage of their house and became debt free and helped them ease into retirement and get better. And then the RISD scholarship was like the next thing on my list is like, okay, car loan gone, parents pay back in full. Let's send somebody to RISD who otherwise would never have a chance to go there because it's so damn expensive. If you could go back in time and explain to your 10 year old self what being a billionaire is like, how would you explain it? Joey you're gonna love it what's the craziest thing you've spent money on but you're like shit oh let's see oh I got one for you I think I'm still a generally frugal person like when you grow up middle class and you come into money I think like somebody told only once more money just makes you more of who you are okay and so my favorite movie growing up was back to the future Michael J Fox and the scene where he pulls out the hoverboard and goes across the lake okay like as a kid I was not able to discern between reality and you know special effects for all I knew the hoverboard was a real thing okay and for whatever reason somebody told me that you could get one at Disney World and so I begged my parents to go to Disney World so we could get a hoverboard and you can only imagine my face and my reaction when we show up in Orlando Florida and there's no hoverboard doesn't exist I was crushed as a kid that stuck with me and so later in life as an adult with a little bit of some extra money I tracked down and purchased the hoverboard that was used in the film Back to the Future.

54:10Where is it now? It's on the wall in my living room.

54:13Katie Miller:That's so cool. Such an interesting flex.

54:22Katie Miller:Billiarder romance novels are the big thing among the suburban moms. I'm sure you know this. I have no idea about this. No, you don't. Tell me. What is it? Oh, gosh. It's like the number one, I think, fiction out there that's being read on e-readers for women. And they're all about romance novels. A billionaire taking a girl on a date. So we're going to ask you, what's the date that a billionaire takes a girl on? I don't know. It probably involves a helicopter, is my guess. You've got to go somewhere that's just so... Have you ever planned an outrageous date? Probably. You really don't know this?

54:58like what's a crazy date like okay you want to make up something like

55:02Katie Miller:no no never mind then I guess this doesn't apply to you but they're like you really don't know that there's like a whole like genre of books it's the first I've heard why would I know this I am clearly outside the target market have you ever seen 50 Shades never I think it came out when I was like building the company like there's a whole there's a whole like era of media that I'm not familiar with okay fine fun fact I didn't see Game of Thrones until like two years ago. Huh. Because it came out when we were building Airbnb. Yeah, so you just had never watched it. No, I didn't watch anything. You've also met a lot of rich people.

55:37Katie Miller:Which one are you most unimpressed by? Come on. I'm going to go onto the internet. Good try. Good try. Okay, fine. All right. We've played this game now twice on the show. Okay. Once with J.D. Vance where you could only answer that of a fellow cabinet member and with Senator Katie Britt and she can only answer that of a fellow senator. You're going to only answer these questions with that of a fellow tech entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. I mean, I guess they're anywhere, right? Austin, too. Who would you let cook dinner for you and your family? Who would I let cook dinner? Given that you're maha, I feel like this is a much harder question than for most people because you are very specific.

56:19I want to give you something good that doesn't sound to mind. Okay.

56:22Katie Miller:Who would you trust to build a campfire without matches or a lighter? Josh Kushner. Who would you pick as a partner in an escape room? Brian Chesky. What's your daily routine like at home? It's kind of Maha-inspired. When I get up, the first thing I try to do is stand on grass barefoot and look towards the sun. So maybe this is like Huberman-inspired as well. Try to get natural in the morning, do my stretches, you know, kind of wake my body up, hit the gym. Do you spray that grass with pesticides? Of course not. You crazy? Drink my celery juice, check the email, and then speed down to downtown DC.

57:11Katie Miller:What do you eat on an average day? What do I eat? Yeah. Try to have a balanced diet. The right macros of carbs, protein, fats. What keeps you grounded? I've got four friends from Georgia, my childhood friends. We go on a trip every year and learn to text-start together. There's something about seeing connect with them that reminds me of where I came from. I'm just a kid from Georgia that worked hard and had a good idea and I'm so grateful for. They're just one of many things that help me keep grounded. All right. We're going to play a game of would you rather? Well, let's do it. We've done this now every episode.

57:55Katie Miller:Okay. Would you rather be stuck in a never-ending Zoom with bureaucrats or a never-ending group chat with venture capitalists? Put me with the VCs. I'll hold my own there. Would you rather stay in an Airbnb made of Legos or read Airbnb reviews written only in emojis? Legos, I think you'd come out with a better story. Which process would you rather redesign? The DMV or TSA? Oh, man. Both. TSA would be amazing, though. Would you rather have unlimited ideas but no time to execute them or unlimited time but only one idea? I like shipping, so unlimited time, one idea. Which would you rather be tasked to do, make jury duty fun or make parking tickets popular?

58:44Let's make jury duty fun. Let's make it fun for people to serve their country that way.

58:48Katie Miller:Would you rather spend$1 million on wine or on a watch? A watch. Do you drink wine? Do you have like a large, are you like more a watch collector? I like a good vintage Bordeaux. Like a Bordeaux from the 80s is like an amazing experience. It's like wine that just kind of floats on the top of your tongue. It kind of floats. What's the most overrated travel destination? More people go to Paris and France than any other country in the world every year. Is that where most people book their Airbnbs? Yes. So, yeah, I think, you know, I like getting off the beaten path, like finding the unexplored places.

59:26Katie Miller:What's been the most interesting travel fact you've learned by now operating Airbnb? So one of the craziest travel facts is that during the World Cup in Brazil, one in four people that attended were staying on an Airbnb. That's crazy. That's crazy. Right. On a peak night in summer, I think we had three to four million people on one night staying in a home with somebody all over the world. So why did you decide to leave Airbnb? I decided to leave the day to day of Airbnb in 2022. It was in 14 years and we got through COVID. We had our most successful quarter after going public earlier that year.

1:00:09and I remember looking around the room and seeing this incredible executive team that was fine-tuned to help take the company into the next stage and thinking, you know, I love early stage ideas. I love being at the initiation of something and we're in such a good place as a company. Maybe it's time for me to get back to that, to the initiation, to the sort of germ of idea that you can breathe some life into and give it shape and color. I had conversations with my co-founders, of course, and I've stayed very connected to them. I serve on the board of directors, of course, attend the big product reviews that happen two or three times a year.

1:00:54So I think I'm still connected and contributing in ways that are valuable to the company, and I hope to as long as I'm still considered useful. But I think there's something very important about our story, which is the nature of my relationship with my co-founders is started with friendship, continued friendship, and existed today in friendship.

1:01:13Katie Miller:Do you think your monetary success has given you the ability to say, hey, I'm going to leave and just start something new versus someone who is still hustling at their same idea? Well, sure. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's options that are created. What's been the craziest idea or worst idea you've given to your co-founders that they have not used for Airbnb. I want to know what's gone in the delete file. Well, one that did go through, a very small one, was to be able to filter search results of listings by whether they have a piano or not. That one did go through. I love playing piano, so that worked out well.

1:01:52We'll go back to you've obviously been very successful,

1:01:56Katie Miller:and people obviously pitch you on ideas probably all the time for money and venture and capital, all that stuff, right? What's been the worst idea you've been pitched? And on the flip side of it, what's the best company you've invested money into? I just invested into a company that allows you to have an iPad and you can sketch an idea for a product and it immediately renders it with like a photographic rendering and then can turn it into production drawings in the same app to go have it made somewhere. That's cool. It's very cool and it's kind of like the thing I always wish I had like when I was a young entrepreneur coming up with product ideas.

1:02:37Katie Miller:Do you have a hard time deciphering who comes to you because they actually want to be your friend versus who's coming to you because they just want to pitch you on idea or gain access to your wealth or status? It's hard sometimes to know intentions, you know. There's a lot of people asking for stuff and it's just, you know, you get really good at like what's really going on here. and so alright what's on your lock screen right now my lock screen yeah it's uh it's just a beautiful background I know it's like a beautiful picture landscapes yeah what's the last book you read the actual last book I read was reading up on the history of design in the US government it's a page turner for me it is what's your favorite song right now there's this great electronic music song called set me free Who threw the last great party you attended?

1:03:32Jeff Bezos' wedding was absolutely amazing.

1:03:35Katie Miller:Do you prefer text or call? I think calls just get to it, you know. Are you an early bird or a night owl? I don't get a lot of sleep, so kind of both. What's the best invention of all time? I think Christianity should be considered up there as an idea that has endured thousands of years. Are you religious? I was when I grew up, and I do believe in God. What's more likely to inspire innovation? A long shower, a long run, or a long flight? Shower, for sure. There's a saying that if you've ever had an idea, you've taken a shower. How long is the longest shower? You don't want to get too pruney, but...

1:04:22Katie Miller:if you could host a dinner party with three people dead or alive who's sitting at the table and what are you eating? All right. You know, I'd go with like Steve Jobs, Roosevelt,

1:04:40Charles Eames. And I hope we're just enjoying like some good pepperoni pizza.

1:04:48Katie Miller:Is that because your mom never let you eat it? Yes. What's your favorite pizza? I mean, that's it. No, but like from where? Are you like ordering from a specific place? You make me yourself? Oh, there's a pizza place in Yuntville, California, in Napa Valley that makes the greatest pizza. Thank you, Joe, for doing this. Thanks, Katie. This is a lot of fun. So you asked me what we give out on our swag bags on the Katie Miller podcast. Well, we do it personalized. And so I wanted to give you this. I want you to open it. Okay.

1:05:34Oh my God.

1:05:35Katie Miller:It is your executive order. Wow. Blue line. Look at this. Signed by the president. No kidding.

1:05:45This is so special. Look at that. Improving our nation through better design. Talking about America by Design, the National Design Studio, and the Chief Design Officer. This is so cool. Wow. Thank you so much.

1:06:00Katie Miller:You're welcome. All right. So what's next for Joe? We're recruiting. We're bringing in the best talent of our era. The best designers, the best software engineers are coming to DC or I'm on the phone with them. I've been on the phone with them all week. And we're really creating a very historic team here. Thank you so much, Joe, for joining. And thank you all for watching the Katie Miller Podcast. Please remember to like, subscribe, follow. We're on YouTube, Rumble, X, Spotify, and Apple. Thank you so much for watching and we hope to see you every Monday at 6 p.m.

1:06:47you