Epstein Files Fallout

27:13That was actually in my piece that I wrote. Oh, wait. What? Let me check my notes. Listen to The Assignment with me, Audie Cornish, streaming now on your favorite podcast app. Hey, we're back internationally live from Tucson, Arizona, with a search for Nancy Guthrie, the mother of NBC News anchor Savannah Guthrie, continues now into its ninth day. We're also today following some big developments in another tragic story, this having to do with the Epstein investigation. Today, Epstein's convicted accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is in prison, appeared virtually before the House Oversight Committee.

27:53She pleaded the fifth, refusing to answer any questions because the answers would incriminate her. Here is what a Democrat and a Republican lawmaker had to say about that deposition. What we did not get were any substantive answers to the questions that were asked that would advance our investigation to help us learn who were the other men involved in these crimes, to help us learn who were the others who knew about these crimes. Her attorney said, Maxwell didn't say, her attorney said that she would answer questions if she were granted clemency by the president. President Trump.

28:40So, if that seems like a quid pro quo, maybe, take a gander at this. The attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell posted this, quote, Some may not like what they hear, but the truth matters. For example, both President Trump and President Clinton are innocent of any wrongdoing. Ms. Maxwell alone can explain why, and the public is entitled to that explanation. Joining us now is Liz Stein. She is a survivor of Epstein and Maxwell's sickening trafficking ring. Liz, thank you for being here. Before I ask you questions about your reaction and such, let me start how I always ask. How are you? This has got to be just excruciating to go through.

29:19Yeah, it really is. And I appreciate that you always ask us and you acknowledge that it is excruciating to go through. But you know what? That just makes it all the more important for us to do it. And we feel really energized because this fight is far from over. So what is your reaction to Ghislaine Maxwell saying she would only testify if she receives clemency from President Trump? and then her attorney also saying if she testifies, she's going to clear both Trump and Clinton. Well, I don't think that anyone was surprised by what happened today. We completely expected Maxwell to plead the fifth and to not give any substantive information.

30:02And it's really concerning to us because, you know, she's trying to use what she knows about these crimes as a bargaining chip to get further leniency from our government. And, you know, she has a lot of important information to offer, but we need to remember that this is someone who's perjured herself in deposition. She lied during her interaction with Todd Blanche this summer. And so I don't know if she did talk how much weight we could necessarily put on everything that she said. You know, I think that what people also need to remember is that, you know, the survivors of this crime know what happened.

30:44And so when we see things coming out that, you know, don't parallel what our truth is, we really were taking notice. Here's part of a powerful ad featuring you and some other survivors of Epstein's crimes. It was released yesterday on Super Bowl Sunday.

31:10After years of being kept apart, we're standing together. Standing. Standing together. Because this girl deserves the truth. Because she deserves the truth. Because we all deserve the truth. So Pam Bonney's going to be before the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday. What is your message to her and the Justice Department? Well, we're planning on being there on Wednesday, and we want to send a really clear message that despite our Department of Justice's constantly telling us that there's nothing to see here, that this is over, that we know otherwise. and we're really going to look for answers from Bondi about you know why were these documents rolled out in the way that they were rolled out I mean we saw egregious admissions of survivors personal information this is exactly what they were telling us that they needed more time for right and I think that we really want to ask her hard questions about what was the procedure that went into the redactions, whoever saw them.

32:26And if they don't think that there's anything to see here, you know, I think every page that we look at, we see a lead that can be followed up on. So I really want to hear from her what she thinks next steps are beyond, you know, there's nothing to see here because we're seeing that there's a lot to see. Yeah. I mean, for anybody who goes through those files, you know, there are a lot of allegations and allegations are not convictions. We should be very clear. But there's even even an FBI like graphic of like notable people who there are allegations about. And my question is, and you would have a better answer to this than than anyone else.

33:07Is there any indication that anyone in law enforcement took any of these allegations seriously and interviewed people? I certainly did not feel that way. I will tell you personally that I called the FBI in 2021, and I did find my FBI intake form with some of my personal information unredacted, but no one followed up beyond that. So I haven't given a victim statement. I haven't given a 302. No one has reached out to me to ask what I experienced and what I saw. And I think that that's not an uncommon truth that many of us as survivors have. So it's hard for us to see Ghislaine Maxwell being given multiple attempts to come forward and talk about what she saw.

33:59But we haven't even been spoken to and we're the victims of this crime. So that's definitely concerning. to us. Liz Stein, Liz Stein wearing a sweater that says courage is contagious and you are so courageous, you and your sister survivors. And we thank you as always. And we will continue to cover the story until there is some sort of accountability for these disgusting men and women who were part of this. Thank you so much for being with us, Liz. Thanks, Jake. Turning back to here in Tucson and the search that has gripped the nation's attention well before this, I spoke with Savannah Guthrie about her Christian faith and how her relationship with Jesus Christ has comforted her in difficult times, how that is likely playing a key role in her life, especially now as she tries to survive this horrible experience.

34:55My next guest is a bishop offering spiritual advice that could help all of us. That's next.

35:05Welcome back to The Lead, live from Tucson, where the search for Nancy Guthrie brings us to our faith lead today. Repeatedly, we have seen the Guthrie family talk about their faith, leading on their faith during this incredibly difficult time, including this during the Instagram message Savannah Guthrie of NBC News posted just a few hours ago. I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers. And the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt. Because we believe that somehow, someway, she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place.

35:56With me now, Bishop Marion Edgar Budde of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, D.C. Bishop Budde, thank you for joining us. How does faith help people get through horrific experiences like this one?

36:16Well, first of all, to say that faith doesn't spare us anyone suffering. What faith does, I think, is allow us to rest in the core conviction based on experience that our God is very present with us in suffering, in uncertainty, in unknowing. And as Savannah said in the piece that you just quoted, she feels the prayers of other people. And I think what in the mystery of that is that we're praying to God, we're praying for mercy, and somehow that connects us in both a mystical way and in a very practical way as we allow ourselves to join with God in whatever we can to provide consolation and support.

37:10I want to play a clip from something Savannah told me a couple years ago when she visited my show to talk about her book, Mostly What God Does, which is about her personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Take a listen. Faith doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in real lives, in real circumstances. And faith, you really figure out what your faith is, not in times of great triumph, but in sadness and darkness and doubt. Right. In the book, there's a really interesting part when she goes back and reads her journals and she's surprised to see a time when her younger self writing to God talks about a wall of mistrust that she had that is separating her in God.

37:59Do you see that often? How do you help people get through that wall of mistrust? Well, we wouldn't be human if we didn't feel it, right? Because we want to believe, we long to believe in a loving God, and yet we have to contend with the world as it is and the suffering that we know and that we see all around us. And so it would be illogical if we didn't have some resistance to that dissonance, right? And it isn't something you can just leapfrog over. You work your way through it in perseverance and prayer. And then I think, as the title of her own book suggests, there are ways that God reaches out to us from God's side.

38:47And that doesn't always make logical sense to other people. But once you've had that experience, particularly in a time of struggle or pain or suffering like the kind she's going through now, it's the rock that you live your life by. I think it's also... We all remember when Erica Kirk... Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I was just going to say, and maybe the Erica Kirk example is telling here, but it also grounds us in the human history of people of faith who have looked to their faith and who have endured and persevered through difficult times. So we're not alone in this, right?

39:34Prayer and faith and Christian or Jewish or whatever tradition, it connects you to others, and there is great strength in that. so one of the things i remember from uh erica kirk at the funeral for her her husband was assassinated was that she forgave she forgave his killer and in that same vein part of the prayer by the pastor uh of at nancy guthrie's church yesterday sunday was a prayer for the kidnappers How difficult is that to pray for or forgive people who have wronged you? It could not be more difficult. And it's not always something that we can do on our own strength or capacity alone.

40:27It's a choice that we make to entrust even. I mean, we start from the premise that no one is outside the love of God, including the people who are causing great harm. And we surrender to that. And we also free ourselves from the weight of unforgiveness. And again, I don't want to make it sound like this is easy, but it is a spiritual commitment that we make. And I think God honors that by allowing us to feel somewhat released from the burden of unforgiveness and hatred. Episcopal Bishop Buddy, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today. The big news from Tucson this afternoon, a new message from Savannah Guthrie.

41:22What investigators might take away from this new video well beyond the words publicly said. That's next.

41:34Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper and I'm live in Tucson, Arizona, right outside the Pima County Sheriff's Department, where we're following the breaking news. NBC News anchor Savannah Guthrie releasing a brand new video on social media this afternoon pleading for the public's help, your help, in locating her 84-year-old mother Nancy who disappeared from her home nine days ago. Savannah is saying that her family is, quote, at an hour of desperation, unquote. Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare.

42:19I just want to say first of all thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt my sister and brother and I and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow some way she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place. We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help.

43:14so I'm coming on just to ask you not just for your prayers but no matter where you are even if you're far from Tucson if you see anything you hear anything if there's anything at all that seems strange to you that you report to law enforcement we are at an hour of desperation and we need your help.

43:44Sadly, our reporting suggests that as of now, there are still no serious suspects or persons of interest in this case and a purported ransom note demanding$6 million in Bitcoin by 5 p.m. tonight, although we should be clear, police have not publicly confirmed that that note is authentic. I want to bring in right now CNN's Ed Levandera, who is in the Catalina Foothills neighborhood. of Pima County, Arizona, where Nancy's house is. Ed, there's been some new activity from investigators around the house this past weekend. Yeah, we've seen consistent investigative law enforcement activity, not just here in this neighborhood, but across various parts of the city where we know investigators have been checking out convenience stores.

44:27They've also been checking out Savannah's sister Annie's home as well. And so all of that work continues. And we do know that from neighbors here in this area, investigators have essentially been almost like re-canvassing the area, trying to turn over something that might have been missed in the initial search of this neighborhood, going back more than a week now to last Sunday when this disappearance and abduction was first reported. We know that they've been asking about if residents or anyone has captured any kind of suspicious vehicle, suspicious people that have been hanging in the neighborhood.

44:59All of that work continues. But despite all of that, and it's not just confined here to this neighborhood, Jake, it's been happening across the city from what we understand. Still no clear information, no clear leads that would bring them any closer to finding Nancy Guthrie. Ed Lavender, thank you so much. Let's bring in CNN's chief law enforcement analyst, John Miller. And John, the past few videos we've seen from the Guthrie family have been very different. They were targeted at the kidnappers, not the public. The tone has been different. Why do you think that is? Well, each one served a different purpose.

45:39The first one was to appeal to, you know, the kidnappers to reach out, to communicate, to answer them. The second one was to do that a second time, which is we still haven't heard from you. and we need to know that you can talk to us and that you have our mom and that you can prove that she's still alive. The third one was a response to a communication they got because they said, we got your message and we understand. We want our mother back and we're willing to pay. This one is totally different because it's not directed at the kidnappers. It's directed at the public. And I think, you know, you pointed this out earlier, Jake.

46:24Morning television is different from watching the news. People will drop in and out of the news as they can during the day. Morning television is habit viewing. That means that Savannah Guthrie has almost 3 million people that she is with every morning across this country who feel in some measure she's a part of their family, they're a part of hers. and she's trying to marshal the power of that position to say, I need everybody, everybody out there, you know, to get engaged in this. And that's the difference between all the messages. Each one had a distinctly different purpose, as does this one today, because I think they're worried that people may assume this is all unfolding behind the curtain and that they should stay out of it.

47:09She's like, don't mind your business. If you've got a lead, call it in.

47:14Yeah, I guess that's my next question is, how do you interpret this video to the public asking for help to find Nancy Guthrie, as opposed to, I mean, in relation to whatever the kidnappers, the ransom letters, whatever communications are going on there, it would seem to me contradictory. Like if you have a relationship or communication with the kidnappers, you wouldn't necessarily ask for help from the public. But I don't know. You tell me. Am I wrong? This is one of these things where it's, you know, everything, everywhere, all at once. You want to deal with the kidnappers, but you're going to deal with them understanding they're going to be bad people to start with.

48:05They may not be trustworthy. They may not even be kidnappers in that it's hard to verify without a solid proof of life that this isn't just an extortion for money. But on the other hand, you don't want the public to lose focus. On the third hand, you know, police are still investigating every lead that they are getting, some of which, you know, can be very promising and then flame out, some of which they haven't gotten to yet because in the triage they're at the back of the book. But all of that has to happen simultaneously. Yeah. John, it's been nine days. What kinds of tips are legitimately helpful to law enforcement as they sort through everything in the investigation?

48:49Because Savannah said anything that you saw or heard that struck you as unusual, please call law enforcement. So what is law enforcement looking for? What they're looking for in concentric circles going out from the ground zero of Tucson, Arizona is, did somebody see, you know, a van or a car where people, you know, were helping an elderly woman out who might have looked like her and bringing her into a building? That would be a class A, you know, top notch lead that they would go out right away. Then they kind of go down to, did somebody hear two people talking about it and say that, you know, they had some information?

49:37Can you direct to who those people are? I mean, it's really anything. And I think their worry is that people say, I think this could be connected, but I don't want to embarrass myself. I don't want to call. I don't want them to roll their eyes saying that sounds far-fetched. Today's message was, if you think it matters, it matters. Just call. The purported ransom note sent to some local TV stations and TMZ last week has the deadline at 5 p.m. We assume that's 5 p.m. mountain time here in Tucson, Arizona. So in a little less than an hour. It demands$6 million in Bitcoin. TMZ this afternoon, I believe, reportedly, you know, they had the Bitcoin account because they got the ransom note and they looked into it.

50:27However, one does that. And they saw no payment as of earlier this afternoon. Can investigators use the information from that Bitcoin account to trace in some way whoever sent the ransom note? I mean, I know that Bitcoin exists for a lot of reasons, but also a lot of criminals use it because it's not traceable. But is that absolutely not traceable at all, no matter what? Well, it depends how careful and thorough the people who set up the Bitcoin accounts were. But if you anonymize it by not using your name and you just go by the alphanumeric number that's assigned to that wallet, they can see where it started and what wallet.

51:04They can see where it ended up and what wallet. But if you've done a good job of setting it up, they're not going to know who you are and in some cases where you are. All right. CNN's John Miller. Thanks so much. Much more on our breaking news in moments. A former FBI agent and criminologist is going to join us live to break down what she thinks are the biggest takeaways from Savannah Guthrie's new video and this purported deadline, which is coming up. Plus, back in Washington, D.C., lawmakers getting their first glances behind the redactions, getting a chance to see the unredacted Epstein files.

51:40The Democrat who viewed the documents today is going to join us live to share what he learned.

51:54Welcome back to the Pima County Sheriff's Office in Tucson, Arizona. We're continuing with our breaking news coverage of Nancy Guthrie's abduction. And this afternoon's new Instagram post from her daughter, Savannah Guthrie of NBC News. Savannah says that the family believes their mom is, quote, still out there. No matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement.

52:29With us now, former FBI agent Brianna Fox. She is now an associate professor at the University of South Florida. Brianna, thanks for joining us. So based on Savannah's plea this afternoon and your experience, what should people in Tucson and beyond be on the lookout for? Well, I'm thrilled at this moment and go Savannah, because I really think that this is what's going to break this case open. Oftentimes it is the public that makes the lead that leads the end of the case. So I think she's doing a great job. This is a big thing. I know it was very difficult for her, but things that the public could see and notice are unusual patterns.

53:11Somebody that isn't normally in their neighborhood and now is, or somebody that has a new person drop in, especially if it's an elderly person and they're not used to it. Any discussion, especially if it's unusual and cryptic. All of that, even if you feel embarrassed or think this could be nothing, it could be the thing. Recall the Brown University shooting where somebody just saw someone wearing an inappropriate outfit outside in the wintertime and posted it on Reddit. And then that person was told, you shouldn't take this to law enforcement. And that ended up breaking up in the case. Yeah, no.

53:49And the alleged shooters of Charlie Kirk and the alleged shooter of the United Health Care executive as well. That's from people paying attention to the news, looking at the images. And we're showing right now a lot of pictures of Nancy Guthrie on the screen. A lot is being made of the words Savannah used in the video message she released with her brother and sister on Saturday. I want to roll a little bit of that and get your take on that. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace.

54:30Some people thought that that had a subtext of pessimism. Others thought that there were code words, code language being used there. How did you take it? To be honest, I was personally distraught. I was really worried, exactly what you said, that there was a lack of optimism. It just seemed like they weren't reaching out to their mother. They were speaking to this ransomer. And I was really worried about what that could have meant from the last message that was sent on, I believe, Thursday night. But this new message actually has renewed my optimism that they believe that she's still alive and out there, which really is great news.

55:07I think also Savannah may be changing course. I think she's maybe nervous that either the ransom notes aren't, in fact, valid and legitimate. And, you know, they were dealing with somebody that brought them no closer to finding their mother. And so at this point, she may be just thinking, well, I'm going to invite the entire public, my viewership, everybody that cares about this case, as so many people do, to try to help solve it. And that could be by sharing that small detail that can lead investigators towards where her mother is at. Brianna Fox, thank you so much for your time and expertise.

55:43We really appreciate it. And again, if you out there, if you have any information about Nancy Guthrie and where you think she might be, call the Pima County Sheriff's Department at 520-351-4900 or the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI. You can also reach the agency online at tips.fbi.gov. Much more of our breaking news coverage in just moments. But another major story we're following today, lawmakers getting their first chance to see the unredacted Epstein files. My next guest is a member of Congress who says he saw lots of co-conspirators in those documents. We're going to talk to him next.

56:29And we're back in our national lead. We're live from Tucson, Arizona, right outside the Sheriff's Department. And this is where the search for Nancy Guthrie, the beloved mother of NBC News, Savannah Guthrie, continues with now on its ninth day. We're also following big developments in another tragic story. That's the Epstein investigation after the Justice Department made millions of unredacted records, unredacted about convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein available for certain members of Congress to view today. Here's what Representatives Thomas Massey and Ro Khanna said they saw just moments ago.

57:06Take a listen. What I saw that bothered me were the names of at least six men that have been redacted that are likely incriminated by their inclusion in these files. Our bigger concern is that there's still a lot that's redacted, even in what we're seeing. Here now joining us, Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz of Florida. He serves on the House Judiciary Committee. So, Congressman, you got a look at some of these files today. Now, the Epstein Files Transparency Act only allowed the Justice Department to withhold the personal information of the victims, the survivors, and material that would jeopardize active federal investigations.

57:48Did the redactions that you saw comply with the law? and tell us what you saw that concerned you. Well, thanks, Jake. Thanks for having me. First, let me say, obviously, we're all hoping for Savannah's mom's speedy return to her family. So first of all, you go into the Department of Justice today. You go to the 10th floor of a building. There's nobody who works on that floor. You go into a room with four computers. The system that they set up for us to view these documents has a 24-page handbook on how to use it. There's 2.7 million documents that you have to go through. There's no way to go through them unless you know what you're looking for by batch number.

58:25Try to match up the redacted document and look for it in an unredacted capacity. But first, let me say that today I saw a worldwide sex trafficking ring with people in other countries sourcing young children for Jeffrey Epstein, co-conspirators' names, men and women. clearly other people that might be on the client list that are on text messages and emails over redaction dramatic over redaction it looks like intentionally so and then documents that are still redacted and when we asked why these were redacted that's because they were submitted into this electronic system redacted and the people that were at our disposal to ask those questions did not know why they were still redacted, Jake.

59:15Could you identify any of the names of individuals who are mentioned in the files that concern you? And if you're afraid of doing it with me now because of fear of lawsuit, there is the speech and debate clause of the Constitution. Obviously, you could go to the floor of the House and you could say it and not be sued. Can you tell us anybody? Well, Jake, we have Pam Bondi coming to the Judiciary Committee hearing on Wednesday, as you mentioned. It's the first time she's coming to the Judiciary hearing. She's the only Cabinet Secretary yet to appear in the House on the Committee of Jurisdiction.

59:50And I think we're going to give her the opportunity to start naming people. I think that's what Thomas Massey and Ro Khanna have talked about. Obviously, these names need to come out. I think the DOJ needs to release an unredacted version of these documents while still keeping the victims' names secure. But there are clearly co-conspirators in here that they can name. In the documents I saw, we got pictures and their names. They're talking about sourcing girls. There's people in Paris. There's people in Russia. There's people in Czech sourcing girls for Jeffrey Epstein. And then other people talking about these girls being sent to them.

1:00:29They refer to them as, you know, we're dropping the child off. I mean, it's really gross, Jake, on how these people are talking about this stuff in text message and email. I think the American people need to see it and understand that this is a worldwide network that Jeffrey Epstein was running.

1:00:50Today, Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney said she's prepared to speak fully and honestly. She took the fifth with the House Oversight Committee earlier. But she said she'll speak fully and honestly, but only if given clemency by President Trump and her attorney, essentially at the same time, was saying, hey, you know, Ghislaine Maxwell is the only person who could clear President Trump and President Clinton and say they're innocent of wrongdoing. Some people might see that as a quid pro quo. What was your reaction? That's exactly what it is, Jake. First of all, why was she moved from the maximum security prison?

1:01:21Why did Todd Blanche move her? You know, I hope we get an answer from Pam Bondi on Wednesday. Nobody seems to know why she was moved. Who directed that? What was that exchange for? By the way, when she talked to Todd Blanch, she didn't claim any Fifth Amendment privilege. And so her right to remain silent. So all of a sudden now, I mean, this is another failed, you know, Comer, you know, hearing that he has where he says Ghislaine Maxwell's coming in to talk and we're going to get the truth and we get nothing. She needs to go back to that maximum security prison. There should be no deal for clemency for her to bail anybody out.

1:01:59But at the end of the day, we need to know why she was given this deal, why she was moved, what did she trade for, and what does the administration know that they're not telling us. Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz of Florida, thanks so much. Always good to have you on. Much more on our breaking news in moments as Savannah Guthrie posts a new video pleading for the public's help in finding her mother, Nancy. I'm going to get new insight from a former Tucson, Arizona detective next.

1:02:36We're back live in Tucson, Arizona, as the desperate search for Nancy Guthrie enters a critical structure. the 84-year-old mother of Today Show anchor Savannah Guthrie was taken from her home in Arizona nine days ago. Earlier today, Savannah posted a new video saying that she believes her mother is still out there. Investigators still do not have a suspect. Ransom notes were purportedly sent to multiple news organizations over the weekend, over last week, rather, demanding$6 million in Bitcoin. The Guthrie family says they are willing to pay for the return of their mother. Joining us now is Benjamin Jimenez.

1:03:14He's a former homicide investigator for the Tucson Police Department, so he knows this area very well. Benjamin, in an update from the Sheriff's Department, officials say that law enforcement activity at Nancy Guthrie's home will continue tonight and tomorrow, quote, as part of the ongoing investigative process, including the expansion of the search and follow-up on new leads. This is all part of the investigative process as the search for Nancy expands and new leads come in, unquote. As the search for Nancy Guthrie expands, what do you read into that? Well, it tells me that new leads are coming in, so they have to follow up on all those leads.

1:03:54Whether it takes them back out at the scene, out in the desert, wherever it takes them, they're following up on those leads. And we don't know how many are coming in, but in these types of cases, many leads do come in and they have to follow up on all of them. Many homes and businesses in Pima County are remote and far apart. Talk about the challenges for law enforcement in light of that for this case. Well, it's difficult. The closest store to that, the home was about a good five minutes away. So I'm sure they looked into that as far as cameras to and from that area. The cameras are at the intersection.

1:04:35So it's very isolated in certain areas up there. I grew up in Tucson, so I know it was all desert at one point many years ago. And now there's homes everywhere, but it's still pretty rural. A lot of it's very dark at night and very few streetlights. So I imagine if they were able to see anything on rain cameras, it would have been very limited due to the darkness. And we've seen authorities close and then reopen the crime scene around Nancy Guthrie's house multiple times. What potential developments in the case would lead them to close it, then reopen it, close it, reopen it? The following up on leads, depending on how many leads are coming in, whether or not they have to check all the boxes in these types of cases.

1:05:25So, you know, they have a lot of fresh minds with all the agencies involved now. And so those leads that come in, they have to go back out. It's not uncommon for them to return to the scene of a situation like this and reopen, put the crime scene tape back up and look around again and see what they can find. They were looking in the septic tank outside Nancy Guthrie's home, I believe, yesterday on Sunday. What would they be looking for? Would they be looking for her just to explore the idea of maybe there wasn't a kidnapping at all? Like, why would they be looking in that? Well, it's questionable.

1:06:08I mean, you know, you're hearing a lot of things on the media, whether or not it's a true kidnapping. So based on that, you know, they have to make sure that they check everywhere and within reason, within closeness to the home in question here. So they're going back out. They're checking into any tunnels, any, you know, if there's any old mines in the area. You never know. It's you know, you don't want to think about that. But you have to follow up on those. Any any openings, any caves out there is pretty rural. It's pretty rocky in certain areas. So there's many places that something could be found.

1:06:44And that's what they're looking for. They're just they're going back out and trying to find whatever they can. Any leads, any trails that they didn't search, so they're going to be going back out again and again. Benjamin Jimenez, thank you so much. Appreciate it. The other major story that we're following today, an attorney for Epstein accomplice, Glenn Maxwell, saying that she can clear President Trump's name, but she needs clemency first. That's next.

1:07:20Welcome back. We're live in Tucson, Arizona, following the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. We're going to continue to monitor the search and bring you updates. But let's turn to our law and justice lead, Ghislaine Maxwell, the convicted child sex trafficker and associate of dead pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, refused to say a word today during an ongoing deposition with the House Oversight Committee. Her lawyer told the committee that Maxwell will not answer questions unless she is granted clemency by President Trump. Let's bring in CNN senior legal analyst Ellie Honig and CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel.

1:07:56Ellie, what do you make of this ultimatum delivered by Maxwell and her attorney? Congressman Moskowitz said it's an obvious quid pro quo. It's right there on the face of it, Jake. It doesn't get any clearer than that. The proposal is written out. This for that. I want a pardon, and in exchange, I will give you exonerating testimony. But the fundamental problem with this offer, Jake, is even if Ghislaine Maxwell and Donald Trump reach this agreement, who on this earth would actually believe Ghislaine Maxwell's testimony? We're talking about a convicted child sex trafficker. We're talking about somebody who is openly begging for a pardon.

1:08:32We're talking about a person in Ghislaine Maxwell who spent nine hours face-to-face with the the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, and gave an utterly preposterous, unbelievable account where she said she had done nothing wrong, nobody else had done anything wrong. Maybe Jeffrey Epstein committed a crime, she said, but she's not sure. If you believe that, I don't know what to tell you. So even if this deal were somehow to come to fruition, I don't think it would convince a soul. Jamie, the president has not ruled out clemency for Maxwell. In fact, if memory serves, he wished her well.

1:09:05If he granted her clemency, if he freed her from prison, this could complicate things further. I imagine there might be some sort of political fallout for the president, possibly. Sure, absolutely. Look, to Ellie's point, where is the credibility in all of this? Survivors want accountability. So let's look at what happens if he gives her clemency. This is the one issue where Republican members of the House, overwhelmingly, only one didn't, vote to release the Epstein files. That's because these members of Congress know that this is an issue their constituents care about. So if he pardons her right now, gives her clemency, those Republicans believe it's going to hurt them in the midterms.

1:09:56If they lose the House, then Donald Trump is going to have a lot of political fallout for the next two years, Jake. Ellie, does Ghislaine Maxwell have grounds to invoke the Fifth Amendment and refuse to answer questions in an ongoing deposition with the House Oversight Committee? Is there anything Congress can do to overcome that? Or does she only need to speak? Or does she never need to speak? I mean, is that just how the system works? there's actually a couple things that Congress can do. So first of all, at the threshold level, yes, she does have a Fifth Amendment right because she has an ongoing, what we call a collateral appeal.

1:10:36She's trying to attack her conviction, get herself a new trial. But first of all, Congress can point out, and I've heard various representatives say this throughout the day, you know, she spoke openly with Todd Blanche. So legally, she might have waived, given away the Fifth Amendment privilege. The problem is they're talking about it. But the only way you can challenge that if you're a member of the committee is to take it to court. I've not seen anyone do that. The other option Congress has, they can immunize her. They can say, go ahead, you testify, but now you won't be prosecuted for that.

1:11:05Now, that may be a terrible idea. I don't think I would be on board for that. But that's also a question that I think members of Congress need to be asked. Are you willing to go that far? You issued the subpoena. Do you want to take those next steps to actually get the testimony or was it just for show? Jamie, knowing what you know about President Trump, do you see any world where President Trump post midterms or maybe on his way out the door of the White House issues Ghislaine Maxwell a pardon or commutation? I think that's possible, Jake. What do we know? Donald Trump loves the pardon power and he is very sensitive about the Epstein files.

1:11:43So if he thinks it serves his interest, no one should be surprised if that happens after the midterms. and ellie asking for clemency of course that's what maxwell's attorney asked for that's different from asking for a pardon which wipes your criminal record clean uh what what could clemency mean for galane maxwell so there's two variations of clemency one as you said jake would be a pardon which absolutely just wipes the conviction off the books and would let galane maxwell out of prison the moment it was issued separately there's a lesser option called a commutation. And that could be a sentencing reduction.

1:12:21It could be a reduction of a couple years, a couple weeks. It could be a reduction down to any level the president wants. So, and by the way, just for the record, Ghislaine Maxwell is 64 years old. If you do the math on her time left, she has about 11 years left on her 20 year sentence when you deduct time off for good behavior. So she's got a ways to go. So there is a way Donald Trump could not quite pardon her, but reduce the sentence through a commutation. Ellie Honig, Jamie Gengel, thanks to both of you. The fallout from the Epstein file saga extends to our world lead with stunning developments today in the UK.

1:12:56Calls for Britain's Prime Minister Keir Starmer to step down over his appointment of Peter Mendelsohn to be the ambassador to the U.S. due to Mendelssohn's long-standing relationship with Jeffrey Epstein as exposed in the release of the files. The scandal has already cost Starmer's chief of staff his job. And now late today, Buckingham Palace saying it would support a criminal probe of the former prince, Andrew, over new revelations that he shared secret trade documents with Epstein. CNN's Max Foster reports for us from London. Tonight, King Charles signalling his readiness to cooperate with UK police in any investigation into his brother Andrew.

1:13:39The Epstein crisis now engulfing the Palace and the UK Parliament. UK police are, quote, assessing reports that former Prince Andrew shared confidential information with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Emails suggest that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, in his previous role as trade envoy, sent Epstein reports in 2010 containing briefings on official government visits to Asia and investment opportunities. Prince William breaking his silence on the Epstein affair. Ahead of a visit to Saudi Arabia, a palace spokesperson saying the Prince and Princess of Wales' thoughts remain focused on the victims.

1:14:19King Charles reiterated the same sentiment in a later statement, saying, If they're approached by Thames Valley police, we stand ready to support them as you'd expect. As was previously stated, their majesty's thoughts and sympathies have been and remain with the victims of any and all forms of abuse. Andrew was stripped of his royal titles in order to leave his royal residence last year due to his ties to the late sex offender Epstein. This photo showed Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor with Epstein's former girlfriend and convicted child sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell and Epstein survivor Virginia Dufresne, who accused Andrew of sexually assaulting her when she was just 17.

1:15:02He settled a civil lawsuit by Dufresne out of court in 2022. Dufresne died by suicide last April. On January 30th, the latest tranche of Epstein documents had three undated photos showing Andrew kneeling over what appears to be a woman or girl whose face has been redacted, lying fully clothed and supine on the floor. Andrew's previously denied any wrongdoing. He lied about that. UK Premier Keir Starmer facing his own storm over his decision to appoint Peter Mandelson as ambassador to the US in 2024, despite knowing about his ties to the late child sex trafficker. Documents reveal that Mandelson too shared confidential information with Epstein.

1:15:47To learn that there was a cabinet minister leaking sensitive information at the height of the response to the 2008 crash is beyond infuriating. And I am as angry as the public and any member of this house. Mandelson betrayed our country, our parliament and my party. Mandelson resigned from the ruling Labour Party and the House of Lords and is under police investigation. Calls for Starmer to step down have grown following the resignations of his top two aides, including his long-serving chief of staff who stepped down on Sunday. That's why the distraction needs to end and the leadership in Downing Street has to change.

1:16:32The more we see of the Epstein files, the deeper it plunges the British establishment into crisis. Max Foster, CNN London.

1:16:43Thanks to Max Foster for that report. As Savannah Guthrie releases a new video pleading for help in locating her missing mother, next I'm going to talk to a former kidnapped for ransom negotiator about what may be happening behind the scenes in the investigation.

1:17:04We're back with our national lead. We're live on the ground in Tucson, Arizona, as the search for Nancy Guthrie continues in its ninth day. Although no suspects have been named in this case, investigators continue to look into the potential ransom notes sent to local news stations, which demand$6 million in Bitcoin by 5 p.m. Mountain Time, presumably today. So let's bring in Scott Walker, who spent 16 years with Scott Lanyard as a detective and kidnapped for ransom negotiator. He's also the author of the book Order Out of Chaos, a Kidnap Negotiator's Guide to Influence and Persuasion. Scott, thanks so much for joining us.

1:17:39So breaking news this afternoon, Savannah Guthrie posted a new video on social media today. This one was not addressed to the kidnappers. she was talking to the public, asking for the public, no matter where they are, even if they don't live anywhere close to Tucson, to contact law enforcement if they see or hear anything strange. She also said, quote, we're at an hour of desperation. We need your help. What do you make of this? It seems to a lot of us watching that this suggests that law enforcement just doesn't have any serious leads as of now. This is a really unusual case. Ordinarily, the kidnappers would have gone in contact with the authorities or the family by now and some kind of meaningful negotiation would be taking place and ordinarily we'd want to do that quite covertly not in the full glare of the media however in this case there is something slightly unusual about it and I think in these circumstances actually getting the media and the public support to try and help find Nancy is actually the right step to take here.

1:18:47And obviously, it's a really, really traumatic period for the whole Guthrie family at the moment.

1:18:55I think there remain questions about whether the ransom notes are actually from the people who took Nancy Guthrie. But let's assume that they're real and the Guthries ultimately do decide to pay this ransom. What does that process usually look like? What happens next? Well, you're right in your first point there. We have to be able to verify as accurately as possible that these notes are from the kidnappers who actually have Nancy. And then the next stage after that is to get a proof of life, which my understanding is these notes don't actually provide that. And so once a proof of life has been obtained, then it's a really delicate time to actually enter into the logistics of potentially handing over money or being apprehended by the authorities.

1:19:51But we say the most dangerous time in the negotiation is just when you think you're winning. And really, it's only when, in this case, Nancy's back safely with her family will people be able to breathe a sigh of relief here.

1:20:08It seems as though the two ransom notes, however legitimate they are, were sent to news stations, to local TV stations here and then also TMZ through a tip submission form or an email. Would that make it easier for investigators to locate the suspect or harder? Possibly. I mean, I don't know what capabilities they'll be throwing at this. My guess is they'll be throwing everything they can to try and identify who is sending this and where from. However, the way in which the kidnapper has been sending these messages would indicate maybe slightly an amateur approach. Because normally a professional kidnapper, somebody who's really keen on getting some money from this, actually would have perhaps approached it slightly differently and gone directly to the family.

1:21:05Scott Walker, thank you so much.

1:21:10And if you have any information about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, no matter how unimportant you might think it might be, anything, anything you've heard or seen that you think could be possibly relevant, please share it. The Pima County Sheriff's Department is at 520-351-4900, or you can call the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI. 1-800-CALL-FBI. You can also reach the agency online at tips.fbi.gov. That's tips.fbi.gov. I'll be back with you tomorrow from here in Tucson as we continue to follow updates in the search for Nancy Guthrie. Aaron Burnett out front starts now.

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