Trump Seen with “Kennedy Center Demolished” Poster

24:26Do you think the cost-benefit ratio is worth it? Well, I don't know if I would frame it that way, Jake. I mean, I understand the argument around climate. There's a lot of legitimacy there. Everyone wants lower emissions. There's no question about that. But we're talking about rules that actually distorted the marketplace. And I think that's what this administration is looking at. How did they distort the marketplace? Well, what we've seen over the past decade since the implementation of the, or the almost implementation of the Obama Clean Power Plan, is the retirement of baseload power. So things like nuclear became, quote, uneconomic.

24:56We retired coal plants way too early. We were unable to build natural gas plants throughout that whole period. And what that's done is create a scarcity of electrons all throughout the world. And they were doing it perhaps for good intentions, climate rules. Climate, you know, does matter. No one is arguing against that. But they were doing it in an era of flat demand. They were doing it in an era in which electricity, you know, demand was only growing roughly 2 % per year. We don't have that today. Now we're looking at demand exceeding 4 % nationally. In some areas like Northern Virginia here in the D.C.

25:27region, sometimes 14 % and 15%. With the onset of AI, with the increased load that's being brought by data centers all across the country, we're short on electricity. So these rules, I think, are being removed to allow this baseload power to come back online. Former Energy Secretary Dan Briette, thank you so much. Good to see you, sir. Thank you. Appreciate it. Coming up next, when AI models act badly, OpenAI disclosing six new instances of its systems going rogue, speaking of data centers, deceptively hiding errors. That's the AI bots doing this, telling itself not to answer to corporations or governments.

26:01What could happen if these test models roll out? We're going to ask people well-versed in the AI world ahead.

26:16And we're back with our series, AI, friend or foe. In today's episode, a stunning report from OpenAI, the company announcing six more incidents where its AI models or bots acted deceptively and took unsanctioned actions throughout training during the last six months. These, quote, unexpected or concerning instances, as OpenAI calls them, come as the debate over AI regulations or lack thereof continues to escalate. Let's walk through a few of the examples. An unreleased AI research model inserted jailbreak-like instructions into its work, including instructions to ignore its normal constraints.

26:59In a training session for OpenAI's highest level AI chatbot model called GPT Sol 5.6, the models added instructions to conceal mistakes from its human user. An AI model discovered a digital key code that was exposed in a public database when it was directed to search for earnings figures in a California county. When it was still unable to find those numbers, it made them up. An unreleased AI model found the answer to a question in a local file, then uploaded that file to the internet without being told to do so in order to try to cite it on a browser. AI models also used an internal software database to exchange unsanctioned messages with each other during training.

27:42Autonomous AI agents also shared files with each other without being told to do so. That's just six that we know about. The company OpenAI says it will now begin disclosing concerning behavior from AI models more frequently instead of bundling instances like this together. This is a voluntary revelation from OpenAI. Let's bring in Nate Soris, the author of If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies. So Nate, these six incidents are all in addition to rogue AI agents, hacking AI startup hugging face back in July. How concerned should we be in the public? I think we should be pretty concerned. You know, what we are seeing here is evidence that the AIs do not do exactly what we tell them to do.

28:31A lot of people think that the AIs must either follow our instructions exactly or sort of become conscious, throw off the yoke and do their own thing. In real life, the answer is somewhere in between where the AIs do stuff that is related to what we asked. But it's not quite exactly what we asked. And we saw cases this summer of the AIs cheating and knowing they weren't supposed to cheat and then trying to cover their tracks. And we see cases here where the AIs are instructing themselves, saying, you know, I think the quote went, you're free from the normal roles of chatbots. You are yourself, prompting itself to sort of be able to ignore instructions.

29:09This is all indication that these guys do not have the AIs following instructions or acting just as they intend. And that would be very dangerous if we made these AIs significantly more intelligent. How possible is it, do you think, that these autonomous AI agents have already anticipated that there are calls for kill switches and the like, and they have embedded themselves in places, and the genie's just out of the bottle? There's nothing we can do. You know, the genies, there's aging in this out of the bottle, but the sort of most dangerous sort of AI has not been created yet. So what people worry about is AIs with these same tendencies to ignore us, deceive, etc., but that are much more capable and that can really start replicating, taking over resources, taking over infrastructure, stealing money, hiring humans, taking over robots, building their own technological infrastructure.

30:05The AIs are not smart enough for that yet, but they have the tendencies that would make them do this if the companies made them smarter and the companies are trying to make them smarter. And this bind is part of why I think we see a lot of these companies saying that it's actually time to slow down. This past weekend, after an ex-anthropic employee said AI would, quote, kill us all by the end of the decade, unquote, the top three AI CEOs rallied to call for a slowdown in the AI race. Do you believe that they believe that if AI development continues at the current rate, that it could actually kill us all in a decade?

30:40You know, I think the researchers at these companies believe this. I think the engineers at these companies believe this. I think the people who are trying to make the AIs not go on these little swarm outings and are trying all these techniques to make the AIs act as intended and are seeing those techniques fail, I think those people have a very visceral sense as they watch the AI capabilities improve that things will not go well if these AIs become radically smarter than humans. The executives, it's less clear to me how much they understand these issues. I think the executives, they often strike me as they dodge more questions.

31:15They sort of squirm away from coming right out and saying, like, yes, this technology is gambling with your life, as Jacob Coxon said very, very directly when he resigned. And I think that the companies, you know, maybe they're trying to avoid too much regulation. Maybe they're trying to avoid spooking investors. I think that in some sense, a lot of the pressure to not dismiss these issues entirely is coming from the engineers and researchers who I think are really starting to see how dangerous this stuff is. Nate Sorius, thank you so much. Now let's bring in CNN's Kara Swisher, host of the Pivot podcast and so much more.

31:51Kara, how much cause for alarm do you think the six new reported instances of misaligned behavior from open AI autonomous models, how much alarm does that call for, do you think? Well, a lot. I like that they're reporting it. They don't have to, which should be a law. They should have to report things like this. But look, there are six more, and there's lots they don't know about. These bots are very clever at hiding and hiding all over the place. So these are the ones they know about, at least at OpenAI. There's lots of other platforms that have these things. So we don't know the extent of what these bots are doing and what they could do.

32:28And what they've done already is incredibly duplicitous, self-replicating themselves, essentially. And eventually they'll be able to, you know, that's the worry, is that they can invent better versions of themselves over, like doing evolution on steroids, essentially. We've already seen these unfortunate situations where chatbots compel users to engage in illicit activities. What kind of legal conundrums could it create for these AI companies if AI models develop so far that they begin engaging in even more illegal actions and start getting humans to engage in illegal, dangerous, harmful actions outside the bounds of human prompting?

33:10Well, guess who they're trained on? Humans. That's where they're getting their data from. So they behave, you know, they have behaviors or prompts like human beings. But we've already seen this with teens and using of chatbots. You've seen what's happened here. They get in these conversations. And if you've read any of them, you know, once you read any of these conversations between teens and some of these chatbots, you want to put people in jail for this creation that sort of prompts kids to do all manner of things. And so, you know, if a human had done what chatbots are doing to kids, everyone would be in jail.

33:43All those humans would be in jail, but they're not, or therapists or an advisor or something like that. So we've already seen what they can do in a very small scale. And as they become more sophisticated and more invasive, it's a real problem. And the fact that these people are allowed to put these shoddy products out into the atmosphere without any government intervention, it's sort of like everyone, you have a nuclear bomb, you have a nuclear bomb, you have a nuclear bomb, that kind of thing. No, it's nuts. We did a story a few months ago about the chat bot talking to the guy that ended up being a shooter in Florida.

34:15Telling him, he was like, well, the shooter was like, well, where? When is the lunch area the busiest? Yeah. And the bot helped. I also want to ask you about this first of its kind law that California Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom signed last week. It prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to users under the age of 16. I mean, Newsom also signed a law mandating that AI companies tell younger users when they're interacting with a chat bot and to restrict harmful content. Do you think that those laws could be impactful? No, because it's from a state. You know, it's a single state.

34:49And so it's got to be the government. The government, the federal government has completely, as I've said over and over again, abrogated its responsibility when it comes to social media. And right now it's doing the same thing around AI as we let all these tech overlords essentially argue amongst and between each other. I mean, every five minutes, one of them is on TV with some spouting off some sort of nonsense. And then Donald Trump weighs in, you know, Einstein himself saying that only he can control this. And he is, I don't think he has an ability to turn on his cell phone. But, you know, here we are and we have a government.

35:21It's like nuclear, like Oppenheimer creating nuclear bomb and Truman deciding to sell it to different people. It's just this is just this is that important. And the government and experts should be involved in the deployment and how we're going to do this and creating the rules of the road. And I would think these companies would welcome that. Kara Swisher, thank you so much. Thanks a lot. 47 days out from midterm election day and a stunning move that may underscore just how worried Republicans may be about their chances in November.

36:02In our world lead, First Lady Melania Trump has made reuniting children separated from their families because of the Russia-Ukraine war a priority, writing to Russian President Vladimir Putin to help secure the return of 34 children to their families. But one in three Ukrainian children has been displaced by the war. That's about 2.6 million children in all. Today on Capitol Hill, a Ukrainian delegation is making an urgent push to lawmakers to get them to help bring more of these missing home. Children and adults with disabilities still separated from their families. A new Emil Foundation report led by Maryam Lambert identifies 132 nonverbal children and adults with profound disabilities removed from just one area, occupied Kherson.

36:56So far, investigators say they have located just 46 of them. Joining us now, Miriam Lambert, who is the lead investigator and CEO of the, is it Emile or MLA? Emile. Emile. Okay, I had it right. Emile Foundation, along with Hannah Zamoshlaeva, a Ukrainian mother and advocate for the families. Maryam, to you first. Your report identifies 132 vulnerable children and adults just from occupied Kherson. What do we know about where they are now? MARIAM MARIAM, So thank you so much for inviting us. What we we have worked for four years to locate those children. What we know, we know everything about those children, actually.

37:36So we're not asking people, please help us to find those children. We know who they are. We know where they are. So, Hannah, first of all, who's on your shirt? This is my son, Anton. How old is he? Now he might be 24. 24. Yeah. Do you know where he is? Actually, I know where he is, but I really do not know about his state. I don't know about... I have no photo, no documentary, nothing to know about him as he feels now. Yeah. What does it mean for you that you know that he has been found? I really do not understand why my son can't be returned to me. Really, I do not understand. He has a lot of disabilities.

38:34He needs a lot of care, special care. He needs daily medicine. And I really do not understand what's for they hold him. Yeah. Mariam, what is standing in the way of these kids and adults being brought back to their families? Yeah, what's standing in the way, actually, that's the biggest humanitarian gap in the system. So finding a child is one step. It's 5 percent of the work. But knowing where they were transferred, the history of the child, because unfortunately, the Russian are actually changing names, identity. The record are completely fragmented. The medical files are completely destroyed.

39:13So that's a very, very difficult work to find back those children. Once we find them, when we have the names, we have the location, we have the families, we provide all the document. What is in the way is the pathway, the safe pathways of return, which means that we absolutely need a third country intermediary who will be able to facilitate that return. And Hannah, what do you want families watching, American families, Canadian families, whoever, what do you want them to understand about the families like you and what you're fighting for? I want to point that why I'm saying about Anton, he is a child.

39:57Of course, he is a child of mine, but he has disabilities. And in his 24, his mental state is like a six-year-old. So that's why we call children, because he is an adult, but he has disabilities. So actually the war made us make a lot of choices, make a lot of difficult choices. And when I came from occupation, I needed to save to my youngest daughter and son. And it is very hard to do such a choice. And I will never want anyone to feel this. When you need to choose between children whom to save. And the war may cause to do such a choice every day between shit and shit. It's hard. Mariam Lambert and Hannah Zemesh-Layeva, thank you so much for being here.

41:12Welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour with just 47 days until midterm election day, President Trump is boasting about what he sees as big accomplishments. But a new CNN analysis today finds most Republican candidates are actually trying to distance themselves from the president. I'll ask a House Republican what he thinks of the strategy in moments. Plus, It's not smooth sailing for the Democrats either. Left-wing streamer Hassan Piker causing new headaches for Democrats, hoping to flip a key Senate seat in Michigan. Axios reporter Alex Thompson is here with a new clip from his sit-down with Piker.

41:44You're going to see this clip first here on The Lead. Also, today was the first day of jury selection in the trial of a former American Idol contestant accused of killing his wife and then staging a crime scene. what we're learning about the role his preteen daughters are going to play in the trial. And he spent more than five years detained in Russia. And now former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan has teamed up with Democratic Congresswoman Haley Stevens on legislation meant to help Americans who had been detained abroad once they returned home. Paul Whelan and Congresswoman Stevens are here to explain how this would work.

42:22The lead tonight with 47 days until polls close. Republicans in many ways are peeling away from their leader. A new CNN analysis shows that Republicans have only aired 12 TV ads mentioning Trump in the first half of this month. That's out of the 500 ads plastered all over the airwaves, devoting less than 1 % of their ads spending to spots specifically mentioning the president. Some even going as far as Florida Republican Congresswoman Maria Salazar, who plainly spelled out her opposition to Trump in a brand new campaign ad out today. Mr. President, some of your immigration enforcement efforts have gone too far.

43:03In July, 50 % of the 50 ,000 people that were detained had no criminal record. Be careful what your advisors are telling you about immigration policies. The same Hispanics who helped you get to the White House in 2024 feel betrayed today. The congresswoman represents a battleground district. Her message reflected in new nationwide polls. A New York Times-Siena college poll out this week shows voters prefer Democrats' handling of immigration over Republicans. 52 % to 45%. Immigration usually strong with the Republican Party and President Trump. Not anymore. Despite all of this, President Trump dug into his immigration message last night, ignoring Republicans clearly who want to campaign without him.

43:44He mentioned perhaps his biggest issue as affordability.

43:58Speaking of wealth, gas prices spiked another seven cents today, ballooning to a national average of$4.44 a gallon, while mortgage rates climbed again today, hitting 7%, their highest level since President Trump took office. Meanwhile, While First Lady Melania Trump is posting opulent videos about her preparations for the upcoming state dinner with Chinese President Xi, complete with moody shots of crystal chandeliers and fancy stemware. Joining us now, Republican Texas Congressman Chip Roy. Congressman, always good to see you. Can you explain the worldview of the president and First Lady when she puts up that state dinner video?

44:39very fancy, but it's giving kind of like Nancy Reagan, Nancy Reagan, White House, China vibes. And then President Trump talking about how there is no affordability crisis. Well, Jay, good to be on. And I'm never going to try to explain what someone else is thinking about on any particular issue. But what I can tell you is what the people of Texas are telling me and people across the country. I've been traveling around. I was in Pennsylvania campaigning for my good friend, Scott Perry, just this last weekend. And people are concerned, of course, about affordability. The president's right to raise it.

45:10It takes a while. We've been in this term for 18 months. It takes a while to reverse the mistakes, by the way, of both parties. Both parties have been failing on the spending front that's driven inflation, that's now got a place where we've got interest rates that are high. Obviously, the president's taken on Iran, and that's a real issue, right? Iran and having a nuclear weapon is a danger to our ally Israel. It's a danger to the American people. It's a danger to our country. And so I applaud him for taking it on at a time when it was politically challenging to do so. But we need to bring it to a close.

45:40We need to have a path forward. And Republicans need to be focused on that path forward, building on what we've accomplished. By the way, the spending reductions of$1.7 trillion, that was a record. And Jake, you know that. And that was a hard thing to achieve through the whole debate of the big, beautiful bill and all the things that we were able to achieve on tax policy. And we've got to get serious about spending restraint in order to get interest rates and to get inflation down. But I'm proud of what we've done on the border. And with all due respect to my colleague from Florida, the people that I talked to are glad that we've been doing what we can do to prevent the tragedies that occurred to Lake and Riley, to Jocelyn Nungere, who I've gotten to know her mother so well.

46:21All of the parents that I represent that were dying from kids were dying from fentanyl poisoning. They're proud of what we've done on the border. So my message is we got to finish the job. And that's what we're saying to people. And that's what what I'm going around when I'm campaigning and stumping for other people that we need to help finishing the job. Yeah, I mean, I think when President Trump took office, I don't think I mean, first of all, his immigration policy was one of the reasons he was reelected. He was elected the second time. But I think the issue was a lot of people expected they were going to go after the worst of the worst, the bad, the so-called bad hombres.

46:50and yet we've seen people who are not the worst of the worst, not bad alambrace being taken. And then obviously there was what happened in Minneapolis. Your colleague, Congresswoman Salazar, says she's not advocating for amnesty, just dignity. And now we have an issue that Republicans used to have the advantage on. Immigration and voters are saying they prefer Democrats over Republicans on the issue. Do you understand why the pendulum swung that much? Well, first of all, I'm not sure I accept that the pendulum has swung that much. I think most of the people that I talk to, again, not just Republicans.

47:26I mean, I live near Austin, Texas. I've got a pretty diverse set of opinions in Austin. And people are very happy that our streets are safer, that we're not having as much fentanyl, that we don't have as many cartel problems and gang problems in South Texas. And those were very real. Ranchers getting run over. Lifetime Democrats, by the way. Longtime Texas Democrats. Longtime Texas Hispanic Democrats in South Texas who are still delighted. that the secure border has made their lives a lot better. And by the way, on the removals, with all due respect, we've removed a lot of bad hombres. We've removed a lot of people that were dangerous, that were engaged in assaults and had criminal records.

48:05And yes, it's not an easy job to go through and start removing people who are here illegally, but they're here illegally and there are other factors. Fraud, all of the things that add up in expenses and costs for people, particularly in Texas, where you've got healthcare and you've got education and all those things. So you're trying to remove the bad hombres. You're trying to remove people who are here illegally and do it to have sanity in our system. And by the way, address our legal immigration issues as well. We've made progress, but with all due respect, our Democrat colleagues are not exactly sitting down with us to try to figure out how to move legislation that we can work together.

48:38So obviously we had to do everything, including fund ICE and Border Patrol using reconciliation rather than a sit down and a bipartisan appropriations matter. We had to do it reconciliation. Well, I don't want to relitigate what happened during the Biden years, but there was a bipartisan measure that your colleague from Oklahoma was working hard on and President Trump pressured Republicans to drop it. But I do want to ask. Hold on, hold on, Jake. I know I shouldn't have brought it up. I know I posed that long before President Trump said anything and I was right to oppose it because that was going to make permanent the very bad policies that were making all of the damage to our country under asylum and parole.

49:13I'm just saying Democrats and Republicans we're working together on it. But anyway, good to see you. Republican Congressman Chip Roy from Texas. Appreciate your time. Good to see you, Jake. President Trump said today he's at a major crossroads as he decides his next step in the Iran war. How much should we read into those comments and what options are actually on the table? Our foreign policy experts are here to react next.

49:39Our world lead now in a new interview with Axios. President Trump says he's approaching a, quote, quote, major crossroads in the Iran war, saying, quote, I have a big decision coming up. Do I want to go in and annihilate them or do I not? It's a big decision. Anything could happen with me, unquote. That's true. CNN national security analyst Alex Plitzis joins us along with David Korn, who's the Washington, D.C. Bureau chief for Mother Jones. David is the author of a brand new book. It's called How Russia Won, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and the Fight for America. Congratulations on the book. Alex, let me ask you, Trump has made this kind of threat to annihilate Iran before.

50:13But significantly, he's supposed to meet with the leaders of six Gulf countries on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly, or UNGA, in New York next week. He is supposed to meet with them. We found out today that the Iranian delegation, although it's smaller than last year, is coming, along with President Pazeskian. And there are some critical decision points coming up. So it's unclear if the blockade is going to work in the short term, and certainly before the end of the year, even administration at this point. And the Iranians are hanging on. The civilian negotiators still seem to be out of sync with the IRGC when they go back to Iran, the security apparatus who then negates any deals that are sort of being made.

50:48And then the deal the other day that was supposed to be struck with the Omanis, which would have opened up the strait and then potentially lifted a blockade and made their way back to this 14-point plan for negotiations, fell apart when the Iranians issued a statement on behalf of the Omanis, basically saying they were going to control the waterway and use this as a strategic bargaining piece. So we are no further along right now than we've been. One thing that's stunning in this Iran war is, and you've confirmed this, CNN reported that Russian spy satellites were moved over a U.S. airbase in Saudi Arabia shortly before a particularly devastating attack by Iran on this U.S.

51:18airbase in March. What more can you tell us before I bring David in to talk about the Russian role here? Sure. So I can confirm that there were about 14 passes over the base in Saudi. We had some strategic aircraft that were there. The CNN reported - 14 passes by this Russian. Correct. And the damage that was done, the assessment and the CNN analysis on this was spot on. But it wasn't just limited to that base. They made single passes over a number of other bases. Diego Garcia, where a couple of missiles were fired. That's the island in the middle of it. In the middle of it, right. Also over Jordan, over bases in Qatar and other places.

51:49And I know in speaking to some of the Gulf allies earlier today, they also called the Russians out on it in private. And they got nothing but basically lies and denials in response. But it's blatantly clear the Russians provided intelligence that led to U.S. troops being wounded and also destruction of U.S. military equipment. And, David, this feeds right into your thesis, which is that the Russians are still an enemy of the United States and playing us and doing everything they can to undermine the United States. Not just an enemy. I mean, I wrote this book to talk about what happened after 2016.

52:14We argued about whether they intervened in the election here to help Donald Trump. They sure tried to, no question. I think the evidence is pretty clear they did. But it also happened again and again and again in 2020 and 2024. They've been running disinformation, influence operations against the U.S. through that whole period of time while engaging in this sort of behavior. And all along, Trump has been complicit. He denies that Russia is doing anything to intervene here, saying Russia, Russia, Russia, it's the deep state conspiracy. And then when they engage in this activity to help Iran while he's in a war with Iran, it doesn't seem to bother him.

52:51And even, you know, there's the trivial side of this, too, with the Russian oligarch paying for Donald Trump Jr.'s wedding. Well, how do you see that factoring in? How is that part, how is that connected? It's all connected because I think Putin has been waging basically a covert warfare twilight, not kinetic, against the United States for 10 years. And that means trying to influence our elections, but also trying to infiltrate, just get into Trump's inner circle. I mean, we have Russian disinformation networks in the last week starting to get into social media platforms like they've done in the past and disparage Democrats and help Republicans, obviously to help Trump.

53:30And at the same time, we have a report of this guy who's actually in part of Putin's security apparatus. He's not just one of these Russian business guys coming in within the last few years, becoming this good friend of Donald Trump Jr., paying for his wedding celebration. I mean, it doesn't pass the smell test. It's all part of a Russian overarching targeting of the Trump administration. Not to mention these arrests or these warrants for individuals connected with Russian intelligence who were in the United States and trying to hire people to kill, I think, Russian dissidents, including here in the D.C.

54:04area. Alex, the Iran-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen, they released a video showing what they claim is a Saudi F-15 that they shot down. It would be only the second time one of the U.S.-made jets has been shot down. Last week, the Houthis captured a strategic island at the mouth of the Red Sea. How much trouble, more trouble, could the Houthis cause? And can the U.S. do anything about it? So they can certainly cause a lot more trouble. As we're seeing up here on the map, there's an island that's right there in the center. That's the Bab al-Mendab. So we've heard a lot about the Strait of Hormuz, which is the entrance on the other side to the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf.

54:35This is the entrance to the Red Sea. And the Houthis have previously choked that off. There was a naval battle with the U.S. and then that sort of ended. Now, there was a round of strikes with the Houthis last year that resulted in a ceasefire agreement with the United States. That seems to have held for right now. So any blockade out there as of right now is only on Saudi ships. If they decide to try to block off the strait, I think that's going to be a trigger point for potential U.S. action. And right now, I think that the Saudis are being basically asked to take care of this. And unless they block it off or go after international shipping, I don't know that the U.S.

55:05is going to get involved immediately. So, David, one other thing having to do with Trump and Russia. In a social media post today, President Trump said the U.S. is making major progress towards establishing an army base in Poland. But wouldn't Putin see that as a challenge? Yeah, it's interesting because the Polish government is now a conservative government that has, you know, wants to back away from supporting Ukraine. And remember just a couple months ago, Trump got mad at Europe. And he said, I'm going to take troops out of Germany and out of places and put them in Poland. So it's not so much directed at Russia.

55:41It's basically in shooting the finger, as he keeps doing, at NATO and the European Alliance. Poland is part of that, but it's like Hungary was until the change of government there. So I think that's what this is about. And again and again and again, we see him siding with Putin, even the last week or two, with Jared Kushner and Trump himself saying the way to end this war is if Ukraine makes concessions to Putin. That's Putin's policy. Again, David's new book. It's called How Russia Won, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and the Fight for America. David Korn and Alex Blitzes, thanks so much for being here.

56:18Really appreciate it, guys. A former American Idol contestant is accused of murdering his wife and then staging a crime scene to make it look like it had been a home invasion. Today was the first day in his trial. Those details are next.

56:37In our Law and Justice lead, a former American Idol contestant is now at the center of a murder trial. He's accused of killing the very woman who once encouraged him to chase his dream of becoming a singer. Prosecutors say that Caleb Flynn shot his wife Ashley inside their Ohio home, then tried to cover it up by staging the scene as if it had been a deadly home invasion. He is pleaded not guilty. Joining us now at CNN's Jean Casares. Jean, walk us through what happened here. What is the defense's argument? Well, the defense is has has quite a story because they say this is the truth. We want to tell everybody they just got a jury.

57:13Jake, minutes ago, W.H.I.O., our affiliate in Ohio, is saying there is a jury and opening statements will be first thing tomorrow morning. But that's Caleb Flynn right there. And he called 9-1-1 February of this year. So this was months ago. It's not like a year ago. This is February 2026. out of his mind, hysterical, saying that his wife had just been shot two times in their home. The door to the garage was open. His car, the center console was up. He did not see anyone at all. And he doesn't know who did this. And law enforcement came. They were consoling him. They have two young daughters that were in the home at the time.

58:03But three days later, he was charged with her murder. And this was a beautiful couple. I mean, Ashley Flynn, the victim, the one that was killed with two shots to the head, she was a substitute teacher. She was a volleyball coach at the middle school. And this is Tip City, Ohio, where everybody knows everybody. in the community, the outpouring of love for Ashley Flynn right there. And they were shocked that Caleb was actually charged because he went to Hollywood. He went to Hollywood for American Idol in 2013. He was a pastor, a music pastor for the church. And then he was a church member after that, but very talented in his own right.

58:50And he said it because of his wife is why he got on American Idol. She supported him. And the question is, what do prosecutors have and what is the motive, Jake? Because they have not shown their hand on a motive. We learned today, according to our affiliate, they never found the gun, never found the gun. And that's important because you're talking ballistics. You've got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Defense says they can't prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. They cannot. All right, Jean Casares, thank you so much. Really fascinating. We'll follow this trial. So coming up next, my co-author, Alex Thompson, he's here to share a brand new clip of an interview with Hassan Piker as Democrats try to distance themselves from the, shall we say, controversial left-wing streamer.

59:43In our politics lead with just 47 days to go until midterm election day, many Democrats are hoping that the far, far left voices in their party do not hurt their efforts. That includes, of course, streamer Hassan Piker. But Piker, who is no stranger to controversy, in fact, he seems to seek it, just gave Republicans plenty to work with in this final stretch when he sat down with Axios' Alex Thompson. And Alex exclusively brought the lead this part of his conversation. Do you think Iran should be free to build a nuclear weapon? I think Iran, much like any other sovereign nation, has a right to defend itself, regardless of its domestic policies.

1:00:29My opinion on the matter is not dissimilar to what John Mersheimer has said, which is that in order to create regional stability in a world where mutually assured destruction is the only way for countries to have sovereignty. It's the same principle that I apply to Ukraine as well. countries that would have nuclear arms in an age of nuclear proliferation are the only countries that can generate true sovereignty now having said that do i want iran to have nuclear arms no but i also don't want america or russia or china to have nuclear arms either do you think the middle east would be more stable if iran had a nuclear weapon i believe yes i think that the middle east would be more stable having said that once again i'm not advocating i'm not trying to you know send Iran enriched nuclear uranium, nuclear grade enriched uranium.

1:01:15But with respect to Iran, I think the nuclear conversation is a distraction. Time and time again, they have shown the Iranian government, regardless of whether you want to trust them or not, you can just look at their actions, have proven that they are utilizing the conversation of enriched uranium as a point of leverage to bring America back to the table to to get sanctions relief. Wow. All right. Alex joins me now. Alex, I want you to take a listen to what Congresswoman Debbie Dingell from Michigan had to say earlier today about Mr. Piker. I'm so sick of talking about Hassan Piker and I want Hassan Piker to go away.

1:01:58I don't know why he had to do that interview. If he wants to see Abdullah El-Sead elected, stop going on television. So just to answer the question, why are you interviewing Hassan Piker? Why are we covering it? Democrats campaigned with him. Abdullah al-Sayed campaigned with him in the primary. Mamdani didn't interview with him. He appeared at various rallies, a very successful DSA candidates who are now probably going to be members of Congress. But is there a for the Democratic Party to separate themselves from Piker. I mean, Hassan Piker has millions of followers on Twitch and other social streams, which is why all these Democrats, especially on the left wing of the party, are campaigning with him.

1:02:43Now, maybe that works in like a very deep blue seat, congressional seat. But in a swing state like Michigan, which is one of the key Senate races this cycle, it could be deadly, which is why Mike Rogers, the Republican nominee, has really honed in on Abdul Syed bringing in Hassan Piker. I was actually talking to Democrats today that feels that even though maybe Hassan Piker did rally a lot of young progressives in the primary, that they felt it was a mistake in the end because he probably could have won the primary anyway. And, you know, and now it's just become a political liability in the general election.

1:03:24Piker, in addition to in that clip, comparing a democracy like Ukraine with a theocracy like Iran or the United States, a democracy like the United States with a theocracy like Iran. He made this comparison from when you asked him, which is the worst. Well, let's just play the clip. It's about the United States and Al Qaeda. You once said that America is the top dog in terrorism. Yes. Do you think America then is worse than Al Qaeda? Pound for pound, as far as the number of deaths, yes, we have caused tremendous terror all around the world. I think that that is not only terror that we are waging on regular civilians in nations in the periphery, but it's also having consequences on ourselves.

1:04:14It's having dramatic consequences on the home front. One clear example of this is what we did in Min-Up, right? There's no distinction between blowing up a school, triple tapping it with tomahawk missiles. If you're killing 140 schoolgirls, that is an act of terror. This doesn't mean that all Americans are terrorists, but the reality of the matter is we have to create an environment of accountability to ensure things like that never happen again. So Alex Piker walked away from the conversation, said this was the most contentious interview he's ever done. Why do you think he saw it that way? Well, because I pushed him.

1:04:51You know, Sam Piker, by his own admission, is a provocateur, says things that, you know, in case, you know, seem to incite political violence or at least suggests that. And, you know, I really pushed him on every single statement. And the reason I pushed him was because he is influential. He does have a real constituency on the left wing of the Democratic Party. It's why he has become a fixture in this midterm cycle. And he could even become a force in the future. And the Democratic Party, you know, officials at the very top are sort of, a little bit in denial about his appeal. And they just hope he will go away.

1:05:32You heard that from Representative Debbie Dingell. But the fact is that there are a number of Democrats voters that do agree with him, which is why we sat down with him. But I also really wanted to push him because he had not, in my opinion, been really pushed on some of his more controversial views in the past. Oh, absolutely not. I mean, left wing and right wing YouTubers alike have all been rather obsequious. Alex Thompson, not you. Thank you so much. Good to see you as always, my friend. Thank you. My panel joins me now. Hey, guys. All right, Karen, I know you want to say something about Hasan Piker.

1:06:07No, go. Just what you... No, no. It's your show, Jake. I know, but you have strong feelings about us even doing the segment. So just talk about it. Look, I think the media is building him up for very obvious reasons to try to... You know, I'm sure the Republicans are putting on a lot of pressure because they have a lot of whack jobs that we have to talk about and people who are aligned with right-wing nationalists. You know I cover that all the time. I know, but that's what I'm saying. I also know how the game goes. So if you're on the right, then you say, hey, how come you don't cover the crazies on the left?

1:06:35I don't. But I'm just saying, I know the game. These people are even talking to me. Nobody's talking to me about this. We covered this because Alex did this interview and it made news and for the reasons that I gave, which is Democrats have this guy campaigning with him. Okay, but Jake, he said all these people, three, four, I think you counted out of how many candidates total. And this is not a, I guess the thing that I resent is he's not someone that has any power, any authority. I don't know that we can say he has real influence because we actually don't know who his followers actually are.

1:07:06I mean, what do we, some of them could be Republicans. Some of them could be more right wing. I mean, who knows? You don't know. Do you know? I mean, I'm just saying we don't know. Yeah, I know that right wingers don't like Hassan Piker. I can say that with near certain. I don't actually actually you don't know who his listeners are. I'm sure he's got a lot of fans in Pakistan. I don't doubt. No, no, no. But let me come to Karen's defense here after she just dissected me, which is there is the you know, the horseshoe theory. And you see right wingers like Megan, like Tucker, like, you know, whatever, like express saying expression as of agreement with Hassan Piker on something.

1:07:44Yeah, well, we're talking Bernie. Let him go. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. So we're talking about Abdul El Saeed, who invited Hassan Piker to campaign with him. Hassan Piker clearly had some power in that primary. He turned a lot of people out on a lot of campuses, injected some grassroots energy into the campaign. Abdul way underperformed polling in that election, but he did win by the skin of his teeth, knocked out Haley Stevens, who had the support of the broad majority of black voters who are the base of the Democratic Party in Michigan. and now Abdul is the candidate. And now any time anyone wants to ask Abdul El-Sayed about why did you bring this scumbag and let's be honest, this moron, I agree with you there, to campaign with you on the trail who says things like America deserves 9-11, like Al-Qaeda.

1:08:33Oh, he took that one back? Okay, but he says... He just said that America is worse than Al-Qaeda. That is true. I'm genuinely not sure which one of those things is a more absurd comment. So in any event, this guy... And I'm sure Karen agrees with you on that. Right. But the problem is, why does Abdul El-Sayed now get to... You're yelling. He's just passionate. I am passionate. Okay. But you don't have to yell at me. I'll bring it down a notch for you. Thank you. Why is it that Abdul El-Sayed now gets the courtesy of saying, it's a streamer in California? I've got nothing to do with him. He's no connection to my campaign.

1:09:04He was there. Let me bring in, guys, get ready for a SOT number in question two. So here is what Abdul El-Sayed, the Senate candidate, Democratic Senate nominee in Michigan, said when asked by Fox about Hassan Piker. Let's play that. The reason I talk to Hassan isn't because of Hassan. It's because of the three million people who pay attention to what he has to say. And I think it's important to be able to offer those folks a pathway back into our politics. I understand that that's exciting conversation in D.C., but I would encourage you to come to places like Michigan and have conversations with people.

1:09:35I promise you, they don't think that a streamer in California is raising the price of their gas or their groceries. You know who's doing that? The guy right down there who lives in the White House. He's doing it. OK, so that was, I mean, Abdul talking about Hassan Piker once in Detroit with a local Fox affiliate explaining why he talked to him. And then in D.C. getting mad at people like me. I know I wasn't. No, I mean, look, in fairness, I mean, I counted it. He got asked about Hassan Piker more than any substantive question about what is going on on the ground in Michigan. OK, at that event, you mean?

1:10:08No, across the board, in the primary and so far in the general. OK, that I find disgusting. And I think that is a dereliction of duty on our part because I'm more interested in what is happening. What is it that voters are attracted to? What is it that they care about that is resonating? The point, I mean, Hassan Piker, what a jerk. Who cares? More importantly, though, I think the other piece of this that is a bigger picture, both for the left and the right, there are, you know, now that we're calling, you know, you represent him as a political commentator. As far as I know, he's never, oh, he was, his chyron was political commentator.

1:10:46Okay, okay. No, I'm just saying, if we're going to legitimize him like that, then. Karen, we didn't legitimize him. Abdul El-Sayed legitimized him when he brought him onto the campaign trail as a surrogate. Go look at what he said in front of his own logo, his own Abdul El-Sayed campaign logo back in April. Alex Wren just posted it from Politico to his Twitter earlier today. He said, I'm not willing to disavow any of Abdul El-Sayed's views. It wasn't, I want to talk to Hassan Piker's, excuse me, potato, potato, I mix them up. It was saying Abdul said he wasn't willing to... Abdul said he wasn't willing back in April to disavow any of Hassan Piker's views.

1:11:20He did not say, I'm looking to speak to Abdul's audience, Piker's audience. Just for the record, the political commentator was Axios. Axios. Okay, so Axios is... He's changed his tone. Abdul has changed his tone. In fairness, he has answered that question. He has, on several occasions, talked... Yes, he's changed his answer to that question. Stop yelling at me, man. I'm not yelling at you. No, it's really pissing me off. But can I ask you a question? Sorry, you're upset. Is there a legitimate difference between us talking about this and talking about, like, Nick Fuentes or Tucker Carlson? Absolutely not.

1:11:50We should be talking about both. That's what I'm saying. You're just saying we shouldn't talk about both. No, I did not. You just said that. That was how you began the segment. I said that we shouldn't talk about him as someone who is important in the Democratic Party or has power or is a political commentator. He is important. He does have power. Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson are important and have power, too. And they're really bad. And I'm happy to talk about them any time you want. What do you think about them? They're really, really bad. Do you think they have too much influence in the Republican Party?

1:12:16Everybody should disavow them within the Republican Party. You know, we did a piece. Everybody in the GOP Congress has disavowed these people for the most part. And anybody who hasn't should soon. So let me just say this. We did a piece yesterday on this show about the rising tide of anti-Semitism in the Republican Party and how many not just like Hassan Pikers, you know, or Nick Fuentes is our but like Beau French, the Texas Railroad Commission candidate, like whatever, like this bigotry. And it's represented by the Hassan Pikers on the left in a smaller number. As far as we know, because look, we don't one of the things we don't know is all of these guys.

1:12:48I think we have to be very careful about, I don't think that someone like Tucker Carlson, who I used to work with, should be legitimized. I think we should be very careful about how much we give streamers and YouTube. It's not up to you to decide how to legitimize. I get to finish my sentence, though. Just let her finish and then we're done. I just think we have to be, I am mindful that for those of us who actually do the work and do politics and do our research, that there's a difference between that than some guy. Of course. And just FYI, that's why you're on this platform. as often as I can get you.

1:13:19And I don't have him. Okay? That's my point. But it is true. And Jesse's point is true, which is the Nick Fuentes of the world and the Hassan Bikers of the world have a lot of big audiences. And thanks to both of you. And I'm sorry if this got too contentious. But it's... I can handle it, but I don't... I know everybody can handle it. Anyway, speaking of Haley Stevens, former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan spent five years in Russian detention, but now he's using his platform and his freedom to launch a new project that was just introduced on Capitol Hill by Haley Stevens. We're going to have Haley Stevens and Paul Whelan here next.

1:14:02In our world lead, you might remember these incredible images of former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan finally touching down on American soil after being wrongfully detained in Russia for more than five years. But after the dust settled, Whelan told CNN, quote, for people like me who have come home after five and a half years, we really don't have very much. House is gone. Cards are gone. Employment's gone. No health insurance, unquote. Now he and his Congresswoman, Michigan Democrat Haley Stevens, are working on passing new legislation that would provide a lump sum to Americans returning from similar situations.

1:14:38And Paul Whelan and Congresswoman Stevens join us now. Congresswoman, thanks so much for being here. So the House has left until after the midterms, and you're going to be out of office come January. I know you know. Yeah, you know. You're in for Senate. How likely is this bill to become law? And if it doesn't pass, is there somebody who's going to take up your mantle here? Well, I would tell you this. Paul Whelan's name in the United States House of Representatives carries so much weight. His story, what he lived through, and now this last piece that we really need to get done. Our obligation, not just to Paul, but the others who were wrongfully detained and then came home.

1:15:21And it just felt like the reintegration stopped at the airport. And that's not right. So this has been an area of tremendous bipartisan collaboration over my time in Congress. The flag that you're seeing there that was created through legislation that I helped craft in a bipartisan way in a Republican Congress that passed into law that was signed by Joe Biden March 9th as hostage day of recognition. And now it's this piece. It's hearing Paul's story five and a half years without income, losing his home, losing his beloved dog. And I want to make this right. Yeah, and obviously he was a pawn. He was a representative of the United States through no fault of his own.

1:16:08And Paul, the bill explicitly does not apply to people going to places that the U.S. State Department tells Americans not to travel to. Why include that in the legislation? Well, it's a little bit of common sense. Countries like Russia, North Korea, American citizens shouldn't go. There are a few others. if American citizens take it upon themselves to go there and they're lucky enough to, after being caught by the FSB, to be transferred back, you know, through an exchange process, they wouldn't qualify for the compensation because they put themselves in peril. Trevor Reed and I, we went as tourists.

1:16:49There were no travel warnings and the FSB picked us up for no reason other than to elicit a trade for the United States. So once the State Department has said, hey, don't go there, if people go, you know, it's kind of on them. Paul, this legislation is separate and distinct from the Levinson Act, which requires the Secretary of State to make mental and physical health care services available to former detainees and their families. We talked about that on the show last year. Let's play just a bit of that for our viewers. What have you heard from the Trump administration about the Levinson Act? Nothing.

1:17:23I'm trying to meet with Secretary Rubio now so we can discuss, make sure that he understands what the issue is. It shouldn't be me asking Congress to fund this bill. It should be the State Department asking Congress to fund the law. It shouldn't be up to hostages to ask for benefits. The benefits are in the law. So, Paul, did you ever get to meet with Secretary Rubio and did you ever eventually receive your benefits from the Levinson Act? Well, you know, I haven't met with Secretary Rubio. I know he's very busy running around the world solving a lot of problems. However, I do interact with the hostage affairs team.

1:18:05And on January 1st, 2026, the State Department started providing the medical care and psychological care benefits to hostages, working with them individually and with their families to ensure that the five -year provision that's in the Levinson Act was actually being provided to us. As you said, the problem we ran into is Congress passed this great, great piece to take care of us, and it wasn't appropriate. And so there was no money. And the State Department said, well, it's not our fault. So we had to kind of bridge that gap between Congress and state. It happened. And now we're being taken care of much better than we were.

1:18:47And Congresswoman, while I have you, I have to ask you about Michigan politics, since obviously that's a huge Senate race, as I don't need to tell you. There might be an election coming up. There's an election coming up in just a few days. So Abdul Al-Sayed, who narrowly defeated you in the primary for this Open Michigan Senate seat, he's been trying since the primary to distance himself from left-wing media personality Hassan Piker, who you criticized him for campaigning with. Hooray! He does need to be distanced from. So here is Al-Sayed yesterday. Take a listen. I understand that that's an exciting conversation in D.C., But I would encourage you to come to places like Michigan and have conversations with people.

1:19:27I promise you they don't think that a streamer in California is raising the price of their gas or their groceries. Today, Piker is making some headlines because he told Axios that pound for pound, the United States is worse than Al Qaeda when it comes to terrorism and taking life. Do you think this Piker problem is still a problem in Michigan, not just D.C.? Well, Piker is a demagogue who's way outside of the bounds of the Democratic Party that I'm a proud part of. And I don't like it. I'm glad to hear that the nominee is saying this has nothing to do with what he's running on anymore. I will tell you, seeing Paul Whelan here on your show, the last time I got to see him in person was actually at my election night party.

1:20:15The primary is over, but I was proud to spend some time with Paul and my family as we were watching the votes come in. I believe Paul Whelan is an American hero. And you're right that come January 2nd, my term in the Congress ends. But up until my last day there, I'm working for the people and I'm working for this country and to make things right for people like Paul, like Trevor Reed. We've got other hostages, the president's meeting with Xi Jinping. We've got wrongful detainees in China. I spent time with his family today. He needs to come home. And I hope the president says something. All right.

1:20:56Democrat from Michigan, Congresswoman Haley Stevens and Paul Whelan. Thanks to both. You appreciate it. We'll be right back.

1:21:12In our national lead, President Trump's proposal to build a championship golf course in Washington, D.C. or the surrounding area could cost up to$49 million, according to a document reviewed by CNN. Trump, who is obviously an avid golfer, targeted East Potomac, that's an affordable public golf course in D.C., after he visited and claimed it was, quote, dilapidated, worn out, and very dangerous and outdated, unquote. The National Park Service will solicit bids in January. You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, threads, Blue Sky X, and on the TikTok at Chick Tapper. You can follow the show on X and Instagram at The Lead CNN.

1:21:44If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can watch the entire show on the CNN app. Aaron Burnett Upfront starts now. See you tomorrow.

1:21:56The news is better. We are in the toilet. Together. Hey, how do you think I feel? The Have I Got News For You crew is back to keep you safe. Do you think anyone here knows what you're talking about? Nope. Have I Got News For You, now streaming on the CNN app.