Trump Shifts On Peace Deal, Urges Ukraine To “Fight And Win”

22:53And they also want access to any recordings of Hohman allegedly taking the money. Joining me now is Mark Greenblatt, former inspector general for the Interior Department. Mark, good to have you here. So both the FBI and the Justice Department say there's no credible evidence of any criminal wrongdoing. There could, though, be an independent watchdog, maybe the inspector general of the Justice Department, who could look into it to verify it. In your view, is that worth it at this point? What would that offer up? Absolutely. I think that would be the great value that the inspector general can bring to this very type of allegation is that transparent, independent view.

23:30Here's the problem, though. Under the Inspector General Act, there's a special carve-out for these very types of matters that sends those not to the IG, but to the Office of Public Responsibility. Here's the problem with that. That office reports to the attorney general. So then you have a situation in this case where the attorney general and her staff would be essentially investigating itself as opposed to an independent body like the inspector general. That's the key problem here is that there isn't that that angle of transparency and independence that the inspector general can bring. This has quite the headline, right, that certainly makes you stop a bag of cash,$50 ,000.

24:13But our own legal analyst, Ellie Hoedig, pointed out just how difficult it would be to prove bribery, to prove intent here, especially considering that there were recent Supreme Court rulings, right, which make it a really high bar for what constitutes bribery. So there would have had to have been a very clear case here. Erica, you're completely right. Ellie is completely right. And I would defer to him as longtime prosecutor on those specific legal aspects. that the Supreme Court over the years has narrowed and raised the bar, as you say, on what constitutes bribery. And the other problem here is that we don't know what official actions, if any, Mr.

24:57Holman took while in office. It's one thing to talk about it beforehand. It's another thing to do it while in office. That seems to be a key gap here, a key void in the evidence. There may be evidence. We don't know. That hasn't come to light publicly. But that would be the key thing is, did he take official actions to help these purported executives who are actually FBI under undercarver officers? When it comes to the Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility, what are the kind of investigations that they would oversee that the inspector general at the Justice Department would not?

25:34Right. So they do anything where DOJ personnel, this is attorneys, law enforcement personnel, are litigating, investigating or providing legal advice with respect to matters under DOJ's jurisdiction. That's going to go to OPR by law under the Inspector General Act. It must go to OPR. The inspector general does other kinds of misconduct, but that special carve out prohibits them actually from looking at, you know, in this case, prosecutors or investigators that are providing advice to more senior folks at the department or the department senior leadership making decisions. That would be at OPR rather than OIG.

26:21And I worked in the OIG, you know, one of the primary offices that deals with these investigations. And we take that carve out very, very seriously. Mark Greenblatt, great to have you here. Thank you. Thank you. Former VP Kamala Harris back on The View today for the first time since, I don't know, many say Kurt may have even doomed her presidential campaign. Why she used it again today. That's next.

26:50You've not held back your criticisms of President Trump today. Do you think that there's anything he's done right since coming back into office? Does anything come to mind? You know, nothing comes to mind.

27:06Former Vice President Kamala Harris there making her first appearance back on The View today since that infamous moment featured in attack ads during the 2024 campaign. This moment. Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years? There is not a thing that comes to mind in terms of, and I've been a part of most of the decisions that have had impact. My panel joins me now. So as we look at this, Kamala Harris out on this book tour, obviously she's promoting her memoir, 107 Days. She's going to be opening herself up to criticism, which is going to come, understandably, including maybe why she had not spoken up sooner, talking to former President Biden, telling him he shouldn't run for re-election.

27:55Christine, what does she actually get out of this moment? How is she setting herself up, especially in a book that, you know, where she does pull some punches? I mean, there's still some questions, but she goes there in some parts. If she's thinking seriously about running for president, I don't understand this book. because, one, I would never have a phone conversation with her that I didn't want to go out in public because she clearly doesn't hold conversations privately. Two, although to some degree on the Rachel Maddow interview last night, she tried to take personal responsibility on Biden, but really in the book, she mostly blames other people.

28:31You know, that kind of victim-type role doesn't translate well. People don't want that in a leader. Now, if she's done, and this is just a truth-telling, and a kind of a cathartic processing, then fine. Though generally, as a Democratic leader, I don't like airing dirty laundry in public. I'd rather keep family things within the family. Keep it within the family. And in terms of whether is she going to run, will she, won't she? Of course, that's one of the main questions that she's getting. She has said that her focus right now, right, her focus is she's on her book tour, not a denial. But Essie, I mean, what's your take on that?

29:07How do you see, could this in any way help her politically or is the airing of the dirty laundry perhaps not so helpful? Yeah, I feel for my friend Christine because she's right. This is uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable for Democrats to watch a one-time star of the party, maybe a future star of the party, really air this dirty laundry. But I see it a little differently. I think if she is going to mount another presidential campaign, one that is entirely her own. And without all the baggage of the previous administration, she had to shed some of this stuff and she couldn't do it halfway. She had to say, listen, a lot of things went wrong here.

29:55And I was aware of them. Whether people are going to buy that or not is another question. But I don't think she could not acknowledge some of the stuff that happened and the damage that was done to her ticket and to the Democratic Party, if she wants another shot at this. Now, she's got a lot of work to do, but I think this might be a first step in like a hundred steps that she would need to take over the next few years to put herself in a good position to run again. And I think echoing some of the stuff that our our own Jake Tapper had in his book, kind of solidifies, this was the story. This was the story of the 2024 election.

30:42Biden should not have run. She was aware of that. And she was sort of dealing the cards she was dealt. Yeah. I also do want to get your take on, of course, we're counting down to Jimmy Kimmel tonight, or at least I am. I'm going to tape it because I have to get up early. But anyway, in terms of the, I was struck by some of the comments, right? So So Sinclair and Nextar Media Group have said they are not going to air it. They're going to keep the show off the air for their affiliate stations that they own. I was struck by this comment because it was so welcomed by FCC Chair Brendan Carr. He posted on social media saying they, being Democrats, simply can't stand that local TV stations for the first time in years stood up to a national programmer and chose to exercise their lawful right to preempt programming.

31:25I mean, how do you take that comment? And do you anticipate anything, Christine, from viewers? Well, I think there's going to be ratings off the chart. I think people are going to, you know, tape this. Love them or hate them, they're going to watch. Absolutely. It's a moment. It is a moment in this country, a moment in history. You know, I think those local stations aren't standing up against, you know, the parent station or the parent entity, if you will. I think they're caving in fear that if they ever need something from the FEC, if they put Jimmy Kimmel back on, they're not going to get it.

31:58This isn't about bravery on the part of those stations. It's about fear and the Trump administration wielding regulatory agencies like a hammer to keep people in check and to squash any voices of opposition. I also take your take on this. I was struck by, in fact, we were on a call for the show when this email crossed, and I said, I can't be reading this correctly. Disney Plus is confirming that they're doing a price hike amid all of this happening, Essie. So you have people, you have Howard Stern talking about how he's canceling Disney Plus, and they're jacking the prices up a couple of dollars.

32:32It is kind of mind-boggling that nobody in the communications department, for example, said, hey, guys, maybe we should wait a couple days. Timing is everything. This one. Disney is always. Yeah, it really is. And money talks. And I think money was the impetus for the first decision and pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the air. And money is the impetus for returning him. Disney is it stands to lose three point eight billion dollars from this boycott. Just to put that in perspective, you remember the Bud Light controversy with Dylan Mulvaney. They lost about a billion, Anheuser-Busch did, in that this is poised to be almost four times as much.

33:13So listen, local affiliates are allowed to air what they want. I have a syndicated show on Local Fox. Not every affiliate picks it up. They know their markets. That's fine. But Christine's right. I think the ratings are going to be off the charts. And I think every station manager of these affiliates is going to be like, oh, we really should air this. Just the cash cow that it's going to be, I think, for a while at least, is really, I think, hard to resist. Christine Quinn, Essie Cupp, great to see you both. Thank you. Just ahead here, a CNN exclusive rare access to part of a country that President Trump says, where President Trump says he solved a war.

33:56why his claims, it turns out, don't match the reality.

34:03I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We're going to talk to Dr. Jennifer McIntyre. She's a microbiologist and also founder of Food Safety Strategy, which consults with food companies about how to deal with food safety, including cyclospora. Also, perhaps most importantly, we'll tell you what you can realistically do to protect yourself beyond the standard guidance to wash your fruits and veggies. If we look at outbreaks that have happened in the past, we usually hypothesize that there was water that was contaminated with raw sewage, including from somebody or maybe a few people who were carrying cyclospora.

34:46Listen to Chasing Life, streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

34:53We're turning to our world lead. President Trump regularly says he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for resolving conflicts, including a conflict between the African nations of Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo. He mentioned it today at the United Nations. And as I noted, it was not the first time. The Congo and Rwanda, a vicious violent war that was. We settled the Congo with Rwanda. that was going on. That was a machete war. That was a gruesome war. Now, while officials of both countries did sign an agreement in Washington, D.C. last June, that deal came after an armed group known as M23, which is allegedly backed by Rwanda, took control of two major cities in the Democratic Republic of Congo, including Goma.

35:40And that group's political leader has not signed anything. In a CNN exclusive, Larry Madowo visited Goma and spoke with him. And I do want to warn you, There are some disturbing images in his report.

35:56In the Democratic Republic of Congo, a militia flaunts its new army on graduation day. These men are said to be former Congolese army soldiers who laid down their arms during fierce battles for the DRC's largest eastern cities of Goma and Bukavu. The man watching over them is Kone Nanga, the leader of the Congo River Alliance, which includes the M23 rebel group allegedly backed by Rwanda. The White House brokered a peace deal between the DRC and Rwanda in June that these rebels are still fighting. Rather than peace, this former election chief says he plans to take his soldiers to the capital, Kinshasa, to overthrow DRC President Felix Chisakedi.

36:42Our aim is to go to Kinshasa. We are going to go with our Congolese people. We are Congolese. We don't benefit anything from Rwanda and we don't need it.

36:59CNN traveled to Goma in eastern DRC to interview the M23 leader amid fresh accusations of severe human rights abuses and war crimes delivered against all sides, but especially at M23. My team confirmed that the M23 committed widespread torture and other mistreatment, including sexual violence, against detainees. These are the liars. Fake reports, there's no true on that. You don't agree with Human Rights Watch and the UN? I don't agree. I reject all those reports because they are propaganda from Kinshasa, and they have been paid for that. The Eastern DRC, which shares a border with Rwanda, has been mired in conflict for more than 30 years since the Rwandan genocide.

37:50It is one of the most complex and protracted crises in the world, stemming from colonial-era border disputes, ethnic tensions, and fought over its large deposits of minerals that are crucial to 21st century technology. The Rwandan government denies backing M23, though UN experts and much of the international community believe Rwanda supports the rebels. M23 first seized Goma in 2012 and this January took it again. This time, the rebels say they will not withdraw so easily. Would you accept a peace deal that requires you to withdraw from these areas you currently control? When we are here, we address the root causes of the crisis.

38:32Then we drop everything and everything is done. President Trump said that they're getting minerals as part of this deal. Shisekedi doesn't have any mining site to give. So President Shisekedi has no minerals to give to the U.S.? He doesn't have it. He's a crook. Are you suggesting that President Shisekedi is manipulating President Trump with minerals? This is what he's trying to do. Will it succeed? I don't know.

39:01Goma International Airport has been closed since M23 took over. They accuse Congolese troops of leaving behind mines and booby traps. One of M23's biggest trophies is this Russian manufactured fighter jet, which they say they took over as a Congolese army fled the city. That fighter jet is used to fly these rocket heads, and you see some of them have been used, some are still active, all abandoned as the city was getting liberated, according to the M23. On the streets of Goma, life has largely returned to normal since January's fighting. At this busy market, people declined to speak on camera for fear of being targeted.

39:4328 million people, nearly a quarter of the population in DRC, required urgent food assistance as of mid-2025, according to the World Food Program. It told CNN the escalation of violence following the M23 takeover of Goma and Bukavu has, quote, severely disrupted humanitarian operations. The sound of gunfire may have calmed in Goma, but lasting peace still seems a long way off. M23 are, so far, not even party to the White House agreement. Will you recognize any peace deal signed at the White House? I don't recognize the SECAD regime. So whatever he signed, I'm not concerned. He's illegitimate. He cannot represent the DRC.

40:33So whatever they sign over there, and so far as we are not part of it, we don't care. I don't recognize it. M23 consider themselves revolutionaries, not rebels. And it seems even U.S.-negotiated peace agreements won't stop them. Erica, a spokesperson for the Democratic Republic of Congo government told CNN that But it rejects the baseless accusations that Congolese troops left behind mines and booby traps as they left the Goma International Airport. This spokesperson also saying that the peace deal signed in Washington under the accompaniment of President Donald Trump does not include the sell-off of Congolese minerals.

41:18That's an important clarification, according to them. President Felix Shisekedi speaks here at the UN General Assembly this week. President Paul Kagame of Rwanda is now due to be coming to New York, so it's not clear when this White House formalization of the peace deal between the two leaders will happen. But whenever it does happen, it will have no impact on the ground, because as the rebels told us, they will keep fighting, and they will go to Kinshasa to overthrow the government of President Shisekedi. Erica? Such important reporting. Larry Mudeau at UN headquarters in New York. Thank you.

41:50Welcome to The Lead. I'm Erica Hill. In for Jake Tapper. For this hour, a series of surprises from President Trump after his blistering UN address today. First, backing NATO on recent moves by Russia and then backing Ukraine in its war with Russia. We'll go behind the scenes. Then drama in a Florida courtroom. The man found guilty of trying to kill Donald Trump, trying to stab himself just moments after that verdict came down. And comedian Jimmy Kimmel is just hours away from his return to late night. So what might he say? I'll discuss with actress Cynthia Nixon, one of many who was pushing hard to get Kimmel back on TV.

42:29The lead tonight, President Trump slamming the United Nations and delivering harsh words for foreign allies in his address to the U.N. General Assembly. It began with a remark about his broken teleprompter before he veered off into uncharted territory.

42:44I have ended seven unendable wars. They said they were unendable. The United Nations did not even try to help in any of them. Your countries are going to hell. To every terrorist, thug, smuggling poisonous drugs into the United States of America, please be warned that we will blow you out of existence. Climate change, it's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world in my opinion the president making only a brief mention of the two major conflicts abroad between israel and gaza and russia and ukraine in that speech cnn chief white house correspondent caitlin collins joining me now so um it was quite the speech uh ahead of a day of meetings with foreign leaders went on a lot longer than it was supposed to and there was a lot in there yeah and they're never obviously gonna wrap the president of the United States when he's addressing the United Nations and the world leaders who were gathered there in that room.

43:41But it wasn't really that surprising of a speech. Maybe it's stunning to hear the president go after friend and foe alike as he did in those comments. But what he said about the United Nations is kind of how he's always felt about the body. He's argued, as he did today, that they're not living up to their tremendous potential, as he put it, and basically was questioning the purpose of the United Nations and why it exists, not just because of the faulty equipment, though that was basically how he underscored his grievances with them, but was essentially arguing that he does not believe that they are that meaningful or useful.

44:13Obviously, that's notable given his ambassador, Mike Waltz, just was confirmed to his post at the United Nations. But what is fascinating about how today has played out, maybe the president doesn't think the United Nations itself is all that helpful, but being here and the meetings that he's had has clearly had an impact on him because it was the Truth Social that he posted this afternoon that has had everyone I've been talking to, whether they're Ukrainian officials or just other European officials who've been watching this so closely, stunned because the president is basically reversing course on what is happening in Ukraine and saying, you know, after for months been saying there need to be land swaps.

44:50Ukraine is going to have to give up part of its territory to make a deal here. The president is now saying that after he's gotten to know and fully understand the situation from a military and economic perspective. He says that he does believe it is possible that Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and win all of its territory back to its original form. That is something President Trump has never said in all the time that I've been covering him since this war started. He has never thought that Ukraine could get its land back. He talked about Ukraine giving up territory.

45:22Basically, you're just going to have to say goodbye to it. Yeah, he was just saying that Zelensky would have to make a deal about a week ago And obviously that was front and center during his meetings with the British prime minister last week and certainly with all of the leaders that he's been meeting with today, including the French president. So this is a remarkable statement. What it means going forward remains to be seen. But the president saying, as he did later in that post, that Russia is in huge economic trouble and that it's time for Ukraine to act is is a position we've never seen him take.

45:52And so obviously a lot of this has been influenced by conversations he's been having with other world leaders here. And so, you know, for all the dismissiveness of the United Nations itself, the actual setting that it's provided for the president has proven to lead to quite a shift tonight. Yeah, absolutely. To your point, we'll see what that what that translates into beyond that post. But but remarkable. That's for sure. Caitlin, appreciate it. Thank you. And of course, Caitlin is back with more on The Source tonight. The Source of Caitlin Collins airs right here on CNN at 9 p.m. Eastern. I want to bring in now Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton joining us, of course, from Massachusetts.

46:26Good to have you with us, sir. So when it comes to the president's comments today on Russia and Ukraine, obviously a fair amount of attention, including that Truth Social post, which Caitlin and I were just talking about, talking about that he believes Ukraine, with support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and to win all of Ukraine back in its original form. That shift, when you hear that shift and when we see what transpired today, how confident are you that this could be a true shift in position for the president? I mean, I have no confidence at all because this president changes his mind on a regular basis.

47:04But it's pretty extraordinary. I mean, you're absolutely right. This is a major shift, and it's extraordinary that Donald Trump is, for the first time in the history of this vicious, brutal, illegal war that Vladimir Putin started, for the first time, he's supporting our friend, not our enemy. Never before has the Trump administration talked about having a plan to win. And by the way, this isn't just something that we get from the president himself. I have asked this question directly of administration officials appearing before us on the House Armed Services Committee. I often frame it by saying, but there was bipartisan criticism of the Biden administration for not having a strong enough or fast enough plan to win.

47:45What is your plan to win? And they've never had an answer. So all of a sudden, this administration is going to have to come up with a plan to win and follow the president, hopefully, in finally doing the right thing. The president also met, of course, met with Ukrainian President Zelensky today. I just want to play a little bit of what we heard.

48:08You've got to hand it to the Ukrainian soldiers and everybody involved. It's still going on. And that's not a good thing for Russia. This was supposed to be quick. And so, you know, Russia doesn't look very distinguished, having taken three and a half years now, right? Yeah. Three and a half years of very hard fighting. And it looks like it's not going to end for a long time. It looks like it's not going to end for a long time. There's a lot being made of those comments as well, especially in light of the president's recent pressure on Europe to increase sanctions on Russia and the president also calling for conditions.

48:45What we're seeing the long time. What does that say to you? I have no idea what the president is talking about. I mean, that's the honest answer. I don't think he has any idea what he's talking about. It may mean that this isn't going to end anytime soon because he's not really going to have a plan to win. He's so afraid of offending Vladimir Putin that he's not really going to give Ukraine what they need to win. He's just shifting slightly in their favor. It could mean that he just doesn't actually plan to put much effort into this conflict, this conflict that he said he promised he would end on day one of his administration.

49:22But the bottom line is that this president is all over the map. And I was thinking earlier today about what it must be like to be one of the people fighting on the ground right now in Ukraine, fighting for your family's freedom, risking your life every single day and having such uncertain and unclear support from the most important ally in the world. I mean, we had British troops serving alongside us in Iraq who, you know, you could agree or disagree with George W. Bush, but he didn't continually change his position on the war. He didn't sometimes say, oh, well, I kind of support Saddam Hussein or I sometimes support al-Qaeda.

49:58Maybe al-Qaeda is going to win or, you know, after all, it was what we who started the war, not al-Qaeda or the crazy things that Trump has said about our arch enemy Russia throughout this conflict. So it's a great sign that he's kind of waking up and recognizing what the rest of the world can see, which is that Russia is the enemy here. But I don't think anybody really counts on his word at this point. I also want to get your take. Of course, there is a there is a deadline looming, as we know. President Trump canceling a meeting that he was supposed to have with your leader, Hakeem Jeffries, and also the Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

50:33he is asking them to drop their demands when it comes to health care in order to meet, saying that otherwise it will just be another long, brutal slog through their radicalized quicksand going on to say to the leaders of the Democrat Party, the ball is in your court. So Leader Jeffrey is then announcing that your caucus will be in town on Monday ahead of that funding deadline, despite Republicans canceling votes. I mean, how are you feeling at this moment? Are you confident in your leadership as you look ahead to next week? I am confident in our leadership. But once again, I don't think anyone, even Republicans, has confidence in the president of the United States to avert a shutdown that he owns.

51:13Because let's be clear, Republicans control the White House, the House and the Senate. The only thing they need to do to keep government open is just get a few votes from a handful of Democrats in the Senate to meet the 60 vote threshold. And he refuses to even meet with them. And by the way, what's he complaining about? He's complaining about that we are trying to preserve health care for millions of Americans, not just in blue states, not just among our friends, but in red states, too. Many Trump voters are going to see their health care premiums go up 75, 80 percent if they're not bailed out by Democrats.

51:49This is what we're asking for. You know, if the roles were reversed, he would be asking for something that solely benefits himself or his party. We're asking for something that's good for all Americans, that a lot of Republicans quietly want in the House and the Senate as well. And what's the president's response? He won't even have a meeting. Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, good to have you tonight. Thank you. Good to see you, too. Still to come here, the stunning moment in a Florida courtroom when the defendant found guilty of trying to kill President Trump apparently tried to stab himself.

52:19Plus, the criminal network had covered after a series of swatting calls, then tracing burner phones and swapped SIM cards. It is a really remarkable story and find that's ahead.

52:35In our Law and Justice lead a guilty verdict today for Ryan Ruth, the man accused of now convicted, I should say, of trying to kill Donald Trump at his Florida golf course last year. Following that verdict, a rather dramatic moment as Ruth tried to stab himself in the neck with a pen. He was stopped by authorities. Ruth, you may recall, had represented himself in court. He's now facing the possibility of life in prison when sentenced in December. Also in our law and justice lead a major bust in a swatting case, which reveals something even more insidious. Secret Service agents uncovered a vast criminal network in New York, the New York area that had the power to do far worse than make bogus threats.

53:12CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller is here with me now. I was really struck when I saw this story this morning, and this is not far from where we were sitting, that all of this was uncovered. First of all, what is it and how are authorities able to actually find and trace this group? So this begins, the story unfolds, as people like the President's Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, the CIA Director, the Defense Secretary, became the victims of swatting calls, masked behind IP addresses and changing phone numbers and voice changers and everything else. And Sean Curran, the Secret Service director, had set up this new unit, Advanced Threat Interdiction Unit, to go after these high-tech threats.

53:56And they started to get into this, and it's computer scientists and analysts and agents working together. But they managed, and I won't get into how, to figure out where these signals were coming from. And they hit an apartment. And you'll see the pictures. An empty apartment filled with servers. And an office. Empty office filled with servers. And a storage location. Walls of servers. So you've got 300 servers with 100 ,000 SIM cards. Every SIM card has a different phone number. And the math of it is you could launch millions of calls in just a few minutes. The kind of thing that could overwhelm cell towers, collapse cellular networks.

54:38in New York City on the eve of the UN General Assembly. So the question was, who built this? What's it for? And we asked, you know, who was using it? Now, take a listen to Secret Service Special Agent in Charge for New York, Matt McCool. So what we do know is that foreign governments and criminals located in the United States are using this network to run their organizations. That includes cartels, that includes human traffickers, that includes terrorists, are on this network. This doesn't sound good. So it doesn't. And, you know, the intelligence gap still is okay. So who owns that? Right. Is it a hostile foreign power?

55:24There's calls, I'm told, by intelligence sources connecting Chinese military people on the other end with Mexican drug cartel people. There are communications between hacker groups and human trafficking groups. It's a busy network, but it's way too large and powerful just to facilitate communications. So the other intelligence gap was, was it some kind of weapon? Right. And is there a sense that that's what it ultimately was, a weapon that could have been used for something? Well, it certainly had the capability. What we don't know about is the intent. And Erica, if there is some organization behind this, we have to assume that there's one in L.A., one in Washington, D.C., another in Chicago, because if it's a nation state that wants to attack infrastructure during crisis to break communications, and we don't know exactly what the timing of that crisis would be or the type, that's the kind of thing that the Secret Service, the Director of National Intelligence, Homeland Security, And I'm sure eventually the FBI will have to really work to get to the bottom of.

56:32We need to know who owns this and what it was for. So this is step one, essentially. John, really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks. Sometimes the best way to understand a difficult situation is maybe through fiction. Why one longtime reporter is now revisiting the conflict in Israel and offering a new opportunity for perspective.

56:52Most of us are one good deal away from finally replacing that worn out rug. fixing up the backyard, or getting the bedroom we actually want. Good news, that deal's almost here. Wayfair's Black Friday in July sale. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space. Plus, free shipping. Black Friday in July ends July 27th. Shop today at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. I have also been deeply engaged in seeking a ceasefire in Gaza. Have to get that done. Now, as if to encourage continued conflict, some of this body is seeking to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state.

57:41The rewards would be too great for Hamas terrorists, for their atrocities. This would be a reward. In our world lead today, President Trump condemning the move by multiple countries to recognize a Palestinian state. He also called for an end to Israel's war in Gaza. As we near two years now since the October 7th attacks on Israel, our next guest explores this very complicated subject in a fictional thriller, The Human Scale. It's the story of a Palestinian-American FBI agent and an Israeli cop who worked together to solve the murder of a police chief in the West Bank in a settlement. Pulitzer Prize winning author and journalist Lawrence Wright joins us now.

58:21I was telling someone on the show I had finished this book. I couldn't put it down. It is a fascinating story. It's a novel that takes place in the days leading up to and surrounding a terror attack. And so much happens in this book. This is a region you covered extensively as a journalist. And it's an idea, as I understand, that you've had brewing for some time. this story itself as a way to help explain the origins and the reality of this conflict. In this moment, how do you feel that played out? Well, I'm despairing about what's actually happening on the ground. I had written the book before October 7th, and then I went back to Israel and Gaza and West Bank in February of 2023, and I could sense that things were about to explode.

59:15I thought about doing a New Yorker story about the next Intifada, and the Israelis were so complacent. It was just really surprising to me. And then October 7th came along, And I had to go back and rewrite my book with a different ending. And so, you know, I guess the lesson I've learned in years in the region is that it can always get worse. I just hope that that cycle has come to an end. You hope that cycle has come to an end. I mean, based on what you're seeing, even just in this moment, right, the number of U.S. and Israeli allies, frankly, who are now recognizing a Palestinian state. what we are hearing from the Israeli government and from the United States, that this is nothing but a reward to Hamas.

1:00:01Are you more or less hopeful in this moment, given what we're seeing in terms of efforts on a diplomatic front? You know, I support the effort to call and to turn Palestine into a recognized state because the world has to do something. One of the myths that surrounds this quarrel is that it's a regional conflict. Well, no, it's not. It's spilled onto our streets, into our classrooms. It's very much an American problem. Israel has about 8 million people. America has Jews, but America has 7 million. So we're two countries that hold most of the Jews in the world. It's no wonder that it's such a pressing issue in America.

1:00:49But it's affecting our politics and it's dividing our generations. And so we have to, I think the world has to stand up after all this time and be more forceful in calling for peace. I mean, I'm the same age as Israel. And in my lifetime, I have seen the Soviet Union dissolve. I've seen apartheid come to an end. I've seen Barack Obama elected president. I've seen Vietnam, Afghanistan, two wars in Iraq. That's all part of history. But this just goes on and on and on. And it's a myth to think that peace is not possible. You know, I wrote a book called 13 Days in September about Carter, Begin, and Sadat.

1:01:35a one-term governor of Georgia, a terrorist, and an assassin who made peace. So to think that peace is not possible is one of the obstacles to actually finding peace. We're very tight on time, but I know that you really take a balance. There are no winners, there are no losers here. It's a very human, frankly, look at how the two sides of this conflict feel about one another. What do you hope readers take away? I wrote the book, Erica, hoping that people would see the other through their own eyes. You know, I think one of the problems in the Middle East is that people can't envision the other as a fully, as a full human being.

1:02:22And it's funny because if you ask someone in Israel or in West Bank, What would you do if you were on the other side? They know who they would be if they were on the other side. They just don't want to talk about it. And this book is an effort to open the eyes to who the other is. And opens a discussion, a discussion that can be very difficult to have but is increasingly important. The Human Scale is out now. Lawrence Wright, thank you. Appreciate the time. Many thanks, Erica. Well, we are, of course, just hours away at this point from Jimmy Kimmel returning to the airwaves after that controversial suspension from his late night show.

1:03:00Cynthia Nixon, one of hundreds of artists who spoke out on behalf of Kimmel, joins me next.

1:03:09In our pop lead just hours from now, Jimmy Kimmel Live will be back on the air, ending a nearly week-long suspension. Not everyone, though, will be able to tune in for Kimmel's big return because two local TV giants, Sinclair and Nexstar, say they're going to preempt the late night show. CNN's Stephanie Elam is live outside Jimmy Kimmel Theater in Los Angeles. It looks like I have a few friends with you as well, Steph. The FCC chairman is also weighing in about Kimmel's return. Right. And, Erica, it's no small note here that 20 percent of the markets of ABC affiliates are owned by those two companies.

1:03:44And so those people will not be able to see tonight's show. We did see a post on social media from the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr, and I'm going to read it to you right now. He wrote, quote, Democrats just keep digging themselves a deeper and deeper hole on Kimmel. They simply can't stand that local TV stations for the first time in years stood up to a national programmer and chose to exercise their lawful right to preempt programming. We need to keep empowering local TV stations to serve their communities of license. Obviously, if you have a streamer, you could still probably see this. But this is a big line in the sand here that continues to play out.

1:04:18As you can see here, people here still coming out to support Jimmy before he starts to tape his show tonight. Erica. In terms of taping that show, as I understand it, you actually spoke to an audience member for tonight's show. What did she have to say? Well, one thing that we learned is that the people who were coming to the show just happened to have tickets for the show. So it wasn't like they got a special lottery. They already had these tickets. And we want you to hear one woman who was just about to go in when we talked to her. I'm here today, the day that he's coming back. It couldn't have been a better day to watch Jimmy Kimmel.

1:04:54I'm just hoping to hear the truth from Jimmy's mouth, whatever that truth is. And so a lot of people saying that to us. I spoke to a man from California earlier. We also spoke to a woman from Tennessee. All of them saying that they want Kimmel to come back because free speech is very important to this country, Erica. It certainly is. Stephanie Elam, live for us in Los Angeles. Appreciate it. Thank you. Also joining us here in the studio, actress Cynthia Nixon, who's one of some 400 celebrities who signed an open letter from the ACLU condemning Kimmel's initial suspension. It's nice to have you here.

1:05:28Nice to have you, too. And I will say it's actually around 475, so almost 400. Oh, we're up to even more now. Well, 475. 475. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What made you want to sign on to that letter? You know, I believe in the First Amendment. That's pretty much it. And I feel that if Jimmy Kimmel can be taken off the air without a moment's notice for saying really barely anything, it can happen to everybody and there is no free speech anymore. He's coming back on tonight. Yeah. Do you think, though, when you look at this moment, and obviously we'll have to wait to see what he says tonight, does this change things, the fact that the letter was written may or may not have played a role in the decision or the timing of that decision by ABC, getting him back on the air tonight?

1:06:20Does this change things moving forward when it comes to free speech and the First Amendment, in your view? Well, first of all, I want to say there were a lot of factors, certainly the ACLU rounding us all up and getting us to sign. I think then they put the we all put the letter online on Instagram and places. And in a matter of a few hours, 40 ,000 people across the country also added their names. And, you know, there were a lot of things that happened. A lot of people, myself included, dropped their Disney subscription, dropped their Hulu subscription, canceled their cruise reservations. And the, you know, Disney stock fell like three and a half points.

1:07:02And I think they you know, that's about almost four billion dollars. Yeah. And also also just say, you know, five entertainment unions with about 400000 members really, you know, join the fight. And people even like, you know, Ted Cruz. We had, you know, defenders often that you often align with Ted Cruz. But in all seriousness, the First Amendment is not a partisan issue. Free speech is something that Democrats, Republicans, left, right, blue, red, really care about. And I also want to say Disney did the right thing. Disney really, you know, listened. They listened, you know, with their ears.

1:07:44They listened with their pocketbook. But they listened. And I think that Sinclair and Nexstar that are not airing Kimmel tonight and presumably in the near future, They're going to find very quickly that denying Americans their First Amendment rights is not a good economic model for advertisers. And it is not something that's going to be very popular with viewers either. You talked about how you canceled your subscriptions. I did. And I saw a lot of that online. You posted about it online. I did. I just want to play that for people who may have not seen it. Okay, sure.

1:08:21My whole family is really going to miss Abbott Elementary. We are really going to miss only murders in the building. But you know what? We would miss the First Amendment a whole lot more. Given that Jimmy Kimmel is back. Yes. Would you renew your subscriptions? Of course. Have you already? Well, you know, the thing about it is I had already paid for the month, so they haven't cut me off yet, so I'll be able to watch Kimmel tonight. But I am 100 % renewing my Disney subscriptions and my Hulu subscriptions, and I think everybody that did what I did should absolutely do the same because we want to say, hey, that's not cool.

1:08:58But when you listen to us, we want to say, great, thank you. We want to see your shows. We love your network. There have been complaints about free speech, about cancel culture for years, frankly. Why do you think this moment is different? Because it was done so quickly and so in such a just a really a brutal way. And it was so transparent. And this was something that people who are cuddling up to Trump because they want the FCC's approval on a merger, which is a monopoly, which should not be legal. This is really about, you know, shining up to him and doing what he wants. It's not a left-right thing.

1:09:43It's really appeasing and pleasing Trump. And our democracy should not be put on the on the chopping block for that. Cynthia Nixon, appreciate you coming in. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Kamala Harris giving a somewhat guarded endorsement of Zora Mondani in the New York City mayor's race. Still waiting to hear, though, from a number of other high profile Democrats. Why are they still stalling over their support? That's next.

1:10:16Look, as far as I'm concerned, he's the Democratic nominee and he should be supported. Do you endorse his candidacy? I support the Democrat in the race. Sure. In the Politics League, that quick answer from Kamala Harris about her, I guess you'd call it a lukewarm endorsement of Zoran Mondani in New York's Democratic mayoral race and as a Democratic mayoral nominee. Mamdani, whose far-left policies have excited his base, but really seem to be keeping a number of other big-name Democrats at bay. My panel is here. So just for comparison, I want to go through some of the responses from the House and Senate minority leaders, both from New York, who were asked the very same question about endorsing Mamdani.

1:11:01Here's what they had to say. I'll have more to say about the mayor's race sometime soon. All I can tell you is I'm going to continue talking to him. What's the holdup? I got to continue talking to him and that's what I'm going to do. It's a lot of talking that's been going on for a long time. And so there's a lot of sort of public hemming and hawing here. At this point, so she does an endorsement from either of these men even matter. I actually don't think it matters. Mondani won the Democratic nomination on his own without the help of the establishment. The reason why he has been so successful is because he was able to generate support in New York City around lowering costs, what Democrats want to talk about all of the time.

1:11:51And I think now what is happening is that you have Jeffries and Schumer focus on one thing, is trying to take back the House of Representatives and the Senate. And that is what they're focused on. And at the end of the day, if Mondani ends up winning, that will ultimately also help Mondani. I will say that the polling shows that as long as this remains a race with all the candidates still in the race, he will end up winning overwhelmingly. That is why Trump was trying to get out Mayor Adams of the race, because he knows that as soon as Mayor Adams is out of the race, that impacts black voters.

1:12:26They could potentially go to Cuomo. And then you have a race that is neck and neck. And so do I think that Mondani needs him? No, he is doing his thing. He is campaigning. He is garnering support on his own with his message. And it is OK for Chuck Schumer and Jeffries to go along their business and have their priorities. When we look at this, too, GW, what's interesting is Democrats are, I would say, clearly concerned that by backing Mondani, who is a self-described Democratic socialist, it could hurt them in elections. But the reality is Republicans are already using those attacks against Democrats.

1:12:57Would it change anything if there was an endorsement in terms of those attacks from Republicans? Well, totally. And so she's right. So long as this is a four-person race, Mamdani will be the next mayor of New York. But I think Jeffries and Schumer are holding out hope that it becomes a two-person race. That poll a couple weeks ago that showed Cuomo within two points of Mamdani in a head-to-head race gave them a lot of hope. But look, these guys are in between a rock and a hard place. And neither of them are, in the George W. Bush parlance, the decider. None of them are good at making these hard decisions.

1:13:30The fact of the matter is the energy and the money is with the socialist left of the party. But they have the House of Representatives to contend with, and they want to win it. And the fact of the matter is socialism polls horrendously in the United States. Cuomo right now is using, as an attack on Mamdani, the fact that he outwardly supported the legalization of prostitution. You have his playing footsies with globalize the intifada and so much more. He is a walking liability for Democrats nationally. That's why Republicans would like to see him in office, to hold that around every vulnerable Democrat's neck.

1:14:09President Trump canceled a meeting that he was set to have with both Schumer and Jeffries over their push to address the Affordable Care Act subsidies ahead of the upcoming government funding deadline. Jeffries then posted, the extremists want to shut down the government because they're unwilling to address the Republican health care crisis that is devastating America. T.W., Donald Trump is the president of Republican Senate, Republican House. Is there a way for Republicans to avoid this being their shutdown if, in fact, that's where we end up? Yeah, I definitely do not think it would be. Look, four days ago, the House of Representatives passed a clean CR to push us to November.

1:14:47Remember, a lot of the oxygen in the last few months have been dedicated around one big, beautiful bill, the president's cornerstone achievement thus far in this administration. And right now, the Democrats have said they won't vote for anything unless he pulls back a trillion dollars from that bill. That's laughable. That's a nonstarter. Look, this is a negotiation, and next week will look a lot different than today. But right now, the president, after receiving that letter from Democrats, asking him to trash his crowning achievement that just passed a couple weeks ago is ludicrous. We have a clean CR on the table.

1:15:22We can push and fund the government until late November, until Thanksgiving, try to get appropriations bills passed now that we have nothing else on the docket and do the American people's bidding. If the Democrats want to hold this hostage in the Senate, be our guest, but it's on them. So I just want to respond to that quickly. I think that what is happening here is there isn't a clean CR. What happened in the Senate was that you had people like Murkowski and Rand Paul who voted against it. It wasn't just Democrats. And ITW brought up a very important point, which I agree with. This is a negotiation.

1:15:55This should be a negotiation. Donald Trump is the leader of the party. He should come to the table to negotiate. Instead, what Johnson said is that the House will be on recess unless there is a shutdown. And now with Trump canceling this meeting, it is the Republican Party who they're in control of everything, who should be leading the negotiations to come forward with Democrats and figure out how we're going to go ahead and solve our health care crisis. Because health care will go up for millions of Americans later this year. And the president should clear his schedule because there is a health care crisis.

1:16:31There is no important thing or issue in the country right now than people's health care. Don't disagree with having to tackle health care down the road. But we have the government about to shut down. We don't have control of the Senate. We don't have 60 seats. So that's a nonstarter there. When we look at where things are really quickly before I let you both go. So with Jeffrey's calling Republicans extremists in that tweet and that a few days ago you have Schumer posting a tweet that said Trump was leading us towards a dictatorship. ownership. Is this, you know, Democrats trying to do politics as usual with an administration that they say is not normal.

1:17:07They're making the point to say it's not normal. I mean, is it worth it at this point, given the way things are playing out, Sochi, or do they need to change tactics? Well, I think that Schumer and Jeffries have played this well in the sense that they should, Donald Trump leads a party and they should ask for a meeting with him. I do think that this administration has done unprecedented things like drop investigations at the Justice Department and other things. And so I understand their frustration. I don't love the language, but I understand where they're frustrated and how they want a meeting with Schumer.

1:17:39So it's JTW. Good to see you both. Thank you. Thank you. He has won multiple Super Bowls, became a big time broadcaster. Now this Hall of Famer is offering up his take on game day grub and maybe even a little bit more.

1:17:55Jake

1:17:59In our pop lead four-time Super Bowl champion, NFL broadcaster, and Pro Football Hall of Fame member, Terry Bradshaw, has scored again, as Jake Tapper found out. This time, it's in the kitchen.

1:18:13Terry Bradshaw, it is so great to have you on the lead. You have a new book out. It's called The Bradshaw Family Cookbook. Terry, congratulations. And I have to say, reading this book, it's so cool. Everyone in your family fancies themselves a chef of some sort, has come up with delicious recipes. What are some of your favorites? Well, Bradshaw beans is my favorite. You should try it, Jake. It's a great weekend. It's a great tailgating. All the most of the dishes that I do in there are I did. One thing I wanted to put in was my cat head biscuits, but I actually forgot to put that in there. My grandmother taught me how to do cat head biscuits.

1:18:57Wait, hold on one second. What do you mean cat head biscuits? Well, here's what you do. When you grow up in the south in the rural areas where farmers and my grandmother every morning cooked for my grandfather every morning, 430. And you'd hear her in there rolling flour, throwing it on and rolling it out and watering it and rolling it out. And then she'd roll it and put it in a bottle and she'd choke it. Take her elbow and put dent in the biscuits. All right. And then she'd put a little either bacon fat in the middle of that or butter. And she called them cat head biscuits. That's delicious. It sounds delicious when you describe it.

1:19:41The cat head part of it throws you off a little bit. Well, yeah, but I mean, look, Jake, you've got to try it. I mean, I would have put it in there. Maybe they would have thought it's too gross. I don't know, but, boy, I'll tell you what, it's good stuff. You called your grandmother a hoodie baby. Hoodie baby, right. First of all, with that nickname, did she play football? And tell us more. My grandmother. Which recipes of hers do you think people are going to love the most? My grandmother's, I wish I could put those biscuits in. Well, they're going to love all the chickens. Chickens was favorite.

1:20:16Matter of fact, I was the chicken kid on Sunday after church. I caught the chicken. And you know what? I don't want to say it's gross. But yeah, chicken on Sunday. Her chicken recipes are good. All my kids except for Aaron. Aaron didn't want to participate in the book, which is hilarious because I told her we're making millions of dollars on the book. She said, you never told me about the money, Dad. And I said, well, you never asked. And so now every time, about every 90 days, I tell her, oh, we got another check today. Why was she called Hoodie Baby, your grandma? Well, grandma, when I was a little boy, for some reason, I couldn't say Estelle.

1:20:52Her name is Estelle Thornton. And I couldn't, for some reason, I couldn't say Estelle, and I said Hoodie. It just came out of nowhere. And so I started calling her Hoodie. And as I got older, I made it cute by calling her Hoodie Baby. She was a 5 '1", 190-pound German lady. And my grandfather was a 6 '4", 165 English guy. Boy. So put those two together. But a lot of country cooking. My kids are a little more gourmet. My son-in-law, Noah Hester, who wrote a lot of these recipes, he's an award-winning chef. As a matter of fact, he's a award-winning chef in Dallas, Texas. But he's from Hawaii. So there's a lot of Hawaii flair in a lot of the dishes that we put in there.

1:21:43But most of mine are simple. I think a lot of people are going to love it. But I have to ask you before you go, obviously everybody knows you from your 14 years with the Steelers and obviously your broadcasting. Give us a lowdown on who you think is going to make it to the Super Bowl this year. You know I'm an Eagles fan, but you don't have to say the Eagles. It's fine. We believe in free speech here. No, listen, I just left Kansas City where the Eagles came in and played. It was an amazing game. Jake, it was kind of reminding me about the early 70s and even the 60s where it was run, run, run, play great defense, capitalize on a break, which they did on the fourth down.

1:22:22They didn't make it. That kind of game. Right now I put the Eagles from the NFC with Green Bay. Some are saying Green Bay is able. I want to see a little bit more out of Green Bay. and the Rams are coming on strong. That's about it. Atlanta's playing pretty good. And then on the other side, I don't know why my heart just says Buffalo. I don't know why. I don't know why. I would like to see Baltimore get there because of their quarterback Jackson. I'd like to see Buffalo get there because of their guy. Those two guys are amazing to watch. So I'm going to say from the NFC side, I don't think anybody can beat Philadelphia.

1:23:03And Philadelphia is focused. They're not still cashing in on the Super Bowl. They're focused. And so I'm going to – just because you're from Philly doesn't mean I'm kissing up to you. No, no. I said you can say anything you want. I know. And I did. I said what I wanted to say. Terry Bradshaw, the book is The Bradshaw Family Cookbook, and it is available now. Thank you so much. and I'll be watching you on my TV next time there's a game. I hope so. Look forward to being with you again, buddy. Cathead Biscuits. Learn something new every day. If you ever miss an episode of The Lead, you can check out the show wherever you get your podcasts.

1:23:38Aaron Burnett starts right now.

1:23:44Go inside the sports moments that brought us together and made history. From the underdogs to the rivalries and the miracles, the new CNN original series, Decades in Sports. Watch back-to-back premieres August 2nd on CNN and next day on the CNN app.