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The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk - Episode 603: Michael Easter
Episode Overview In this episode, Ryan Hawk interviews Michael Easter, a professor at UNLV and the bestselling author of *The Comfort Crisis* and *Scarcity Brain*. The discussion focuses on how to rewire our habits for long-term thriving, emphasizing the importance of doing hard things, understanding our craving mindset, and the benefits of intentional living.
Key Concepts
The Craving Mindset
- Modern Comfort vs. Thriving: Easter emphasizes that the modern world is designed for short-term survival and pleasure, which can hinder long-term thriving.
- "Two Percenter" Philosophy:
- Only 2% of people take the stairs when an escalator is available, illustrating how the majority choose the easier path even when they know the long-term benefits of harder choices.
- The call to action is to become a "two percenter" and intentionally choose the more challenging option.
Importance of Hardship
- Adversity and Adaptation: Engaging in uncomfortable activities prepares individuals to handle future adversities.
- Examples of Hard Choices:
- Walking meetings instead of sitting in a conference room.
- Embracing hunger occasionally to understand true physiological needs.
- Rejecting shortcuts, like picking up trash during walks to enhance the environment.
Scarcity Brain
- Moderation Challenges: Humans are wired to overconsume and often struggle with moderation.
- The Scarcity Loop:
- Comprised of three components: opportunity, unpredictable rewards, and quick repeatability.
- This loop explains why activities like gambling and social media can become addictive, as they exploit our desire for immediate gratification.
- Awareness and Intentionality: Recognizing this loop can help individuals avoid falling into its traps.
Diet and Lifestyle
- Single-Ingredient Foods: Easter advocates for diets consisting of natural, single-ingredient foods, which can lead to better health outcomes.
- Lessons from Indigenous Tribes: Observations from tribes in Bolivia reveal that happiness comes from simple, healthy living—eating natural foods and spending time outdoors with loved ones.
Tactical Strategies to Improve Habits
- Slow Down Decision-Making: Implement waiting periods (e.g., 72 hours) for online purchases to curb impulse buying.
- Mindfulness in Consumption: Respond instead of reacting to cravings and urges, particularly in regards to digital distractions and food.
- Physical Activity: Incorporate movement into daily routines, such as rucking in airports or reading while exercising.
Personal Insights
- Michael Easter shares his experience overcoming addiction to alcohol, which stemmed from a desire for excitement and exploration. He found healthier outlets through nature and fitness, leading to a fulfilling lifestyle without reliance on substances.
Conclusion Easter encourages listeners to take personal responsibility for their health and habits, emphasizing the long-term benefits of choosing discomfort over ease. His insights draw on personal experiences and observations from diverse cultures, encouraging a lifestyle that prioritizes genuine connections, physical well-being, and intentional living.
Key Takeaways
- Embrace Discomfort: Challenge yourself to choose the harder path for better long-term health and resilience.
- Awareness of Craving Patterns: Identify and interrupt the scarcity loop in your life to foster healthier habits.
- Simplicity for Happiness: Adopt a diet centered around whole, natural foods and engage meaningfully with your community.
- Intentional Living: Be mindful of your decisions, both in immediate actions and long-term lifestyle choices.
For more insights and details, listeners are encouraged to check out Michael Easter's books, *The Comfort Crisis* and *Scarcity Brain*. Further notes and resources can be found at [LearningLeader.com](https://www.LearningLeader.com).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00A lot of the things that we get in trouble with today, they really prey on our sort of evolutionary wiring to do this next easy thing to be comforted. No one's going to come saving you. What does it mean to be a two percenter? 98 % of people do the easy thing even when it doesn't serve us in the long run. What's your workout and diet regimen like? 80 % of eating today is driven by reasons other than true physiological hunger. The work I do gets me to is this kind of ability to do everything like pretty well but be a master of not people worry about death causes what the media covers death causes and what actually kills people and there's a giant mismatch like it's insane what are some methods to help us break bad habits if you can slow down any bad habit that's gonna be huge what is scarcity brain everyone knows everything is fine in moderation and And yet we all suck at moderation.
1:23from me each Monday morning to help you start your week all right. You'll also receive details about how our book, The Score That Matters, will help you become a more effective leader. Text HAWK to 66866. Now on to tonight's featured leader. Michael Easter's investigations have taken him to meet with monks in ancient monasteries in Bhutan, lost tribes in the jungles of Bolivia, U.S. Special Forces soldiers in undisclosed locations, gene scientists in Iceland, CEOs in Fortune 500 boardrooms, and so much more. He's also a professor at UNLV, and he's the best-selling author of The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain.
2:09During our conversation, we discuss what it means to be a two-percenter and why we should become one, And then the long-term benefits of intentionally choosing the harder path. And then Michael shares some tactical ways to break bad habits as well as build better ones. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Michael Easter. What does it mean to be a two-percenter? So I'll tell you where the stat comes from. 2 % of people take the stairs when there's also an escalator available. Now, 100 % of those people know that taking the stairs would give them a better long-term return on their health, on their well-being, even their mental health.
2:58And yet 98 % of people do the easy thing. They take the escalator. And the reason for this is because humans are wired to do the next easiest, most comfortable thing, even when it doesn't serve us in the long run. And so I think we're in a space today where our world has become so comfortable that we're faced with all these decisions every day where we can do the easy thing. And that's kind of what we're programmed to do. And yet being that 2 % of people that chooses the slightly harder thing, that is what gives you a real long-term return on your health, on your wellbeing, on all these critical metrics.
3:31And people will often say, you know, this is for one, this is just a meta, the stairs are a metaphor for all the decisions we make in life. But two, people will say, oh, well, it's just like one staircase. When you look at the data behind people who even take five flights of stairs a week, it is insane the amount of return that it gives people on their health. It's like a 20 % reduced risk and all cause mortality. Like it's crazy. And yet we overlook these simple decisions that can make us live better. Why are we programmed to do the easy thing? so when you think about a lot of my work it looks at human health and well-being from sort of a evolutionary lens because i think that the past and how we lived in the past can explain a lot of the problems we face today so when you think about how humans evolved the world was uncomfortable right it was always harsh and we didn't have enough food life took effort it took doing hard things.
4:28And if you were the type of person who avoided discomfort, tried to do the next easy thing, whether that eat, eat more food, when you have the opportunity, avoid any excess movement, because that's going to save energy. You want to avoid the heat and the cold, right? Because I could eventually kill you. That would give you a survival advantage. And so that is sort of programmed into our genes, if you will. And we still have that ancient DNA that says, hey, do the easy thing, do the comfortable thing in a world that has become increasingly comfortable in so many ways. So we got escalators, we've got delivery food, we've got climate control.
5:06Anytime we feel the slightest twinge of boredom, we've got a cell phone that's going to beam 75 million TikTok videos into our brain. And that's not always in our best interest. So we know that one, doing hard things helps prepare us to handle the inevitable adversity that we will face, right? Doing hard things conditions you to be better at handling those things. We know that it physically helps us. It'll probably make us live longer, live better, enjoy the years that we have more by taking the stairs, rucking, working out, whatever. Why don't we do it? Why don't more? I mean, it seems now the world, or at least America, I guess, is maybe more obese than it ever has.
6:00And I realize a lot of it is our food. But I'm curious, we all know this, I think at least, but yet we're in a baddest spot as we've ever been. Yeah. Why is that? I mean, I do think it goes back to what we're sort of genetically wired to do. And I also think if you look at just the decision, like it kind of makes sense to do the easy thing, right? It's like, well, that feels a lot better in the short term. like taking the escalator is much easier and it feels better than having to climb up a couple staircases. So we're kind of designed to take these short term rewards rather than looking towards the long term.
6:42So you need to see the stairs as like the long term investment, even though it has a more uncomfortable buy in in the moment, because here's the thing you're going to, you're going to face some discomfort either way, right? With the stairs, you can have it in the moment and you'll be better off in the longterm, or you can take the metaphorical escalator through life and you're just going to have problems down the road. You're going to have discomfort in the form of health issues, of mental health issues, of all these different problems, but you've just basically delayed them by taking instant gratification.
7:12And I think people regret that. I'm curious to hear how you answer this question that I've been posed more than once when I give a keynote. I went to, one of my daughters had a volleyball tournament in Orlando, Florida, of the national AAU tournament. And as you walk out of the convention center where there's hundreds and hundreds of volleyball courts, you literally are faced with this decision. There are one set of stairs and multiple sets of escalators to go up out of the convention center to then you can either get concession stands or you leave. And this is a volleyball tournament, so a lot of very tall, athletic, in-shape people, both the parents and the kids.
7:49And I've snapped pictures multiple times and send them to my friends because you walk out and you can, Michael, you can guess. It's not 98%. It's 100 % of people who are standing, looking at their phone, going up the escalator while the stairs have nobody on them. So I've showed this picture at a keynote and talked about doing hard things to prepare your mind and your body for the adversity that will strike. And I get pushed back almost every single time. Dude, I don't want to do that. It's just one time. I don't care. I don't want to go up the stairs. What's wrong with just going up the escalator?
8:28I'm like, well, nothing's technically wrong. And so I would just want to get your answer when it comes to the answer of the future and preparing yourself for the future beyond just the immediate health benefits of walking upstairs, but how does this better program your brain to be tougher to handle adversity in the future? Yeah, I think when you look, I mean, humans basically adapt to our conditions, right? And so if you've sort of trained yourself to do the easy, most comfortable thing, that sort of becomes your circle of, it becomes your safe zone, right? That's like your comfort zone is slowly, slowly, slowly becoming smaller and smaller over time.
9:13But if you can just find ways in your life to do the slightly harder thing, it's like the point I like to make is you have to get to the second floor somehow. You have to. So I'm not asking you to do something separate from your life, but you have a decision in that moment. Like you got to get up there and you can take this one way that'll, you know, kind of keep constricting that comfort zone. Or you can take this other way that'll help expand that. Because I think as you do harder things and for when the inevitable difficulties of life come up as they do, you've just got a bigger reservoir to pull from to deal with those sorts of things.
9:51What are some other ways that you choose to do the slightly harder thing? Oh, I mean, on my newsletter, which is called the 2 % newsletter, by the way, after that stat. Highly recommend signing up, by the way. It's one of the best, honestly, one of the best newsletters that you can get when it comes to, I think it's really well written. It's entertaining, but super informative too when it comes to, I think, just like ultimately living a better life, which we all, I think, want to do. So anyway, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I appreciate that, man. We've, you know, I've kind of challenged people like how, how do you interpret this in your life?
10:29And we have all kinds of stories from people that are just really amazing. I mean, people, for example, there was a woman that was taking like 3000 steps a day. She worked behind the desk. She took a lot of calls and she's like, all right, I got to take these calls no matter, but do I have to be sitting? All right. So she started taking them just walking around her neighborhood. These work calls. She didn't have to be in front of a screen and she got her step count up to like 8 ,000. Now, if you look at, if you look at the figures on what that does for her health and wellbeing, like it's insane.
10:59It's like a 50 % drop in all cause mortality, which is like science, scientists way of saying dying from anything at any given moment. You know, um, I have people who have started to work in silence because silence is uncomfortable. Like a lot of us, maybe you're listening to this podcast right now with it on the background. I would never tell you to not listen to a podcast, but at the same time, we live in so much noise that we become uncomfortable in silence. And there is a lot of research that says, once you go through that discomfort of silence, productivity actually increases. Your thinking gets a lot clearer, but you have to go through that initial hump.
11:39And there's studies that have demonstrated this time and time over. Embracing hunger every now and then. So 80 % of eating today is driven by reasons other than true physiological hunger. We eat because we're stressed, because we're bored, because whatever, we just eat. And I do think that if you are in a situation where you want to lose weight, like you're inevitably going to have to be hungry. And you have to learn to experience that and realize it's not actually an emergency. It's like we've been taught that if you get hungry, it's like, oh my God, this is just going to get worse and worse and worse.
12:14And then my stomach's going to implode and then I die. Like, no, it doesn't really work like that. You know? And so once you can, once you can kind of get through that, you can learn, oh, this isn't a big deal. And then you can, it's, it becomes much easier to lose weight. If that's your goal. Those are great ones. I think a couple that come to my mind that I think are very, have become easy, but you have to be intentional, never cut corners. So when you're going on a walk with your spouse, this happens every morning for me with their dog and you make a turn or whatever it is very easy just to kind of cut the corner but don't cut the corner go to the end and then make the hard left turn or right turn or whatever it may be because it's just another intentional thought to not take the easy route same thing if you see a piece of trash on your walk just pick it up and then put it in the trash can it's easier to not pick it up.
13:11And it also makes the place better. And you're also leaving it better than you found it, which is a good quality. It's one of the ways I try to live up my core values, the one of being thankful, leave it better. And so like little things, not cutting corners, picking up the trash, smiling first, right? Can be awkward saying hello to a stranger, right? Like those are all other things that aren't really that physical, right? It's not, it's not walking upstairs, but it could be uncomfortable. It could be hard for some people. And it's about us, I think, being intentional and doing it. Yeah. I mean, another example I love is there's some younger people who read the newsletter and if you're 20 years old, how you communicate with others has largely been rendered entirely through screens and not through voice-to-voice conversation, right?
14:01You text. And text is much more comfortable because it's mediated. You can edit yourself. You have pause. You don't have the interface with someone. And I've had people go, you know what? I'd probably have better relationships if I just like got on the phone with people, like had a real conversation. They're like, yeah, it was kind of awkward at first, but now we just call each other all the time and our friendships are deeper. I feel more connected to people. And it's just that little thing, right? There's so many different ways to interpret the idea that I think all lead to the right direction.
14:32The voice call thing. Yeah. You just wrote about that recently. I like that. Okay. How about this? This is something I've instituted, I don't know, a few years ago. A lot of people listening have layovers or you're in the airport. And what do you see people in the airport? They're just lounging on their seat. And I'm thinking like, we got an hour, let's walk. What should we do in between flights or if we get to the airport early and we have plenty of time, what's a better way to spend that time? Oh, this is my jam, dude. This is my jam. I ruck the airport. So rucking for those people who don't know is you have a backpack.
15:09It's got some weight in it and you just walk and it sounds simple, but it's very effective for health and fitness because you're getting a weight stimulus as you're doing cardio basically. So I have to travel a ton for work. And anytime I'm at the airport waiting for the plane, waiting on the layover, I just walk the terminals. I always carry all my stuff in a pack. I try and pack light, you know but it's maybe once you get all my stuff in it's maybe like 15 20 pounds and i've literally had layovers where i'll put in five six miles yeah i mean five six miles that's like more than most people cover in a week right and i could have just gone to you know gone to the chick-fil-a and sat and watched another episode of some netflix show but instead i'm i'm literally getting in all this work that i wouldn't have that's improving my life not to mention, great for people watching.
15:59You see a lot of interesting stuff. Walking is also associated with better ideas. So a lot of times I will work through ideas that I'm working on in my work life as I'm pacing airports. And I will tell you in my experience, better ideas come when I'm on the move. You're moving. I've gotten so conditioned to reading while either walking on a treadmill or on an elliptical instead of just reading sitting down. And then I use my phone to take notes or the highlight feature in the Kindle app on my iPad. And almost to the point where it's like awkward to read while I'm not moving. And so I think like any of the, initially it takes a second to get the hang of, especially in the elliptical of reading while that movement, but you get used to it and you can do it.
16:43I just think any way you can add a little bit of challenge that also benefits you, have your mind set to like, how could I make this either a little bit harder or how could I better prepare my mind or my body with mundane tasks? I'll go to the grocery just to get more walking in instead of having them delivered. It does take some of my time, but in a way, maybe listen to a podcast or just walk, but I like trying to think of ways to add just a little bit of challenge to life as opposed to saying like, well, what's the easier path? If we're always thinking, what's the harder path? I just feel like it's a one big preparation session for the adversity that strikes from time to time.
17:27Yeah. And what you said about reading while exercising, there's this, I can't remember the headline of the story on 2%, but basically I dove into this research that basically found exercising outdoors is probably better for your brain and brain development. And that's simply because there's so many more factors you have to account for outdoors. So if you're only on a treadmill and you're just kind of totally zoned out, I'll bring this back to your reading in a second here. But all you have to worry about is really nothing. You're just putting one foot in front of the other. But if you take, let's say the same exercise, if you're running and you're on a trail, well, now all of a sudden it's like, you have to figure out foot placement.
18:10You've got to account for the weather. You have to account for changing hills. You have to think about, okay, well, how far am I from home? Do I have enough water? There's all these different things that you have to think about and figure out. And so that combination of physical work with mental work seems to be really protective and good for the human brain. So to bring it back to your reading, that to me feels like a similar thing where you're pairing a mental and a physical stimulus, which I think is great. Yeah. The outdoor thing too is huge. I think the Sundays to me are only working outside and preferably before the sun rises for the majority of it.
18:47Michael, which is fun to sprint, walk, and run, do all three of those. Because I think if you, as a former athlete, I'm not going to be able as fast as I was when I played football, but I want to still be able to go 100 % and full throttle if I need to sprint. And I think there's a lot of good things. because when I talk to some people around my age about sprinting, like sprinting, dude, I haven't sprinted in 15 years. You're out of your mind. I'm like, well, now you probably can't without pulling a muscle or whatever. You've got to work your way up to it. I think regularly sprinting is very good for you, especially as you age.
19:27Totally. Yeah, I agree. Well, when you look at things like falls can be very bad as you age Cause if you break something like a hip, um, and what prevents falling is not quote unquote balance. What prevents falling is basically power and ability to shoot out a foot, to stabilize yourself, to shoot out a hand, to grab something. I think I wrote about this on 2 % too. Um, basically it's an ability to move a limb exceedingly quickly in order to stabilize yourself. And that comes from activities that are power-based and sprinting is probably the number one power activity you could do. There's also things like, I mean, even jumping rope is good for that because it kind of teaches you that springiness.
20:11So keeping those muscles powerful, resilient, and sort of springy, if you will, I think is a real key to aging well. What's your workout and diet regimen like? I'd love just kind of high level and then you can drill down if you want to. yeah i uh two to three days of strength training every week i mean i have two kind of go-to workouts a lot of my exercises designed around spending time deep in the outdoors like back country hunting or you know deep backpacking and out there uh you know i call the the body type you want to be super medium you don't want to be too you don't want to be too skinny right because you're often carrying weight like especially on a hunt if you're packing out you could have a hundred and something pounds in your pack.
20:54So you can't be too skinny at the same time. You can't be way too muscular because even muscle weighs something. And if you're covering tens of miles a day, like that's just going to weigh you down. It's not doing anything to move you forward. So you want to be kind of in this sweet spot. So that's kind of a lot of what the work I do gets me to is this kind of ability to do everything like pretty well, but be a master of, of none. And so two days in the weight room really focused on movements that helped me in the outdoors. So a lot of lower body stuff, some upper body stuff, but then I'll maybe do a third day of strength training, just with kettlebells, a sort of a shorter day, if you will.
21:39And then I do probably every Sunday, like you, I go outside and I'll run for, I don't know, two, three hours in the desert. And then, um, I'll usually do two other days of usually running. Or if I can't squeeze in the outdoor run, I'll do like a cardio machine for those are maybe like an hour. Yeah. How about the diet? Oh yeah. I mainly just eat foods that have one ingredient. So when I reported scarcity brain my book i i found this tribe that has the healthiest hearts ever recorded by science and just study on them so i come across the study and so i'm like okay well i got to figure out why and heart health is important because heart disease is the number one killer of americans and no one really thinks about it they're like yeah i need to do things for my heart but like we don't really take into account just how deadly heart disease is like we don't worry about it you look at that, see this graph, what this shows is it shows what people worry about, think what they worry that they think will kill them.
22:48So this is what people worry about death causes, what the media covers death causes and what actually kills people. And there's a giant mismatch where heart disease is the number one killer of people. It gets basically zero media attention. And most people have it very far down on their list of what kills them. So with all that in mind, find this tribe. I go down into the, like the super remote spot in the Bolivian Amazon. It was like, you landed in an airport, you drive dirt road for about 12 hours. You get in the canoe, you go up the river for about six, seven hours. And then they are, you know, the guy, like it's all green.
23:25And the guy like pulls over and you're like, how do you know this is the spot we've been in this canoe for seven hours. And he just looks at me. This is it. Trust me. There it was like getting into this clearing and there's this tribe. So to bring it back to food, the reason that their hearts are so healthy, it largely goes back to what they eat and what they eat. Really. It's like nothing that special, but the commonality is, is none of it is processed. So it's all foods that you can think of as being ingredients rather than having ingredients. So rice, potatoes, potatoes, hunted meat, hunted, red meat, a lot of fish, fruit, vegetables.
24:06They grow themselves. Every single thing is just one ingredient, right? All natural foods. And I think that that's a pretty good model for the average person. Just eat foods that have one ingredient that are natural. And that's what I do too. So breakfast is like oatmeal, some eggs, some berries. lunch, I will sometimes have like yogurt and some fruit or something like that. Dinner I'll usually have, I hunt. So if I, so I'll usually have meat that I've hunted, or if I don't have that, it's probably fish. And then with like rice or potatoes and vegetables and yeah, it's pretty simple, man. But those foods also, they tend to keep people fuller longer and they also are less calorie dense.
24:51So the problem with junk food is it's not that it has like, Oh, this ingredient or that ingredient, the main reason why people get fat on junk food is, is because, uh, it contains far more calories per bite. And it's also, it's also much tastier, right? So if you compare like a potato chip to a potato, an equivalent weight of the two, the potato chip might have 10 times the calories simply because it's dried out, it's fried, whatever. And so what do you think you're going to get? It might take you say three ounces of food to get full. Well, if the one food has 10 times the calorie, which one do you think is going to make you fat?
25:29It's the one that has more calories per bite. So that was a long answer, but no, I mean, it's super helpful. What about like sugar, sweets, alcohol, pizza? uh, you know, I mean, just, just say no, no. I mean, like on the weekends I'll have, if I'm at a restaurant and it's like, they've got great pizza, I'm going to order pizza. Yeah. But I'm talking like most nights of the week when I'm eating at home, I'm eating like 90, 95 % of the time you're good. Yeah. And then if I'm, but I'm not going to super restrict myself. I mean, I'm not going to go off the rails. I'm not going to get like the deep fried pizza, extra large and eat the whole thing like ever, but I'll still part of the modern food system.
26:11People like to talk crap on it. It's like, no, we have the most amazing food system of all time. Like of all time people in the past, they used to spend more than 40 % of their income on food. Today we spend 8 % of our income, right? People used to have to eat basically the same every single day. Yeah. Now we have like 50 different varieties of Doritos, Doritos alone. right i mean these foods are absolutely amazing but we need to figure out and this is like you got to figure this out for yourself there's no perfect guide how do i navigate this system that has amazing delicious foods in a way that is responsible that doesn't hurt my health because i also you know people will talk a lot of crap on the food system it's like okay well what's your answer and they're like well we need to like regulate junk food it's like okay how are you going to do that?
27:03You're going to make it taste less good. Do you want to, do you want, do you want to call up Doritos and be like, Hey, would you just make your Doritos taste like crap? Well, I don't think you want that because I think the times you do eat a Dorito, you probably want it to taste good. So, all right, now what do we do? Well, maybe we have to go to personal responsibility. Seems logical to me, which in a way goes, I think a little bit to scarcity brain. So your next book, So your first one, Comfort Crisis, absolutely crushing it. I think it's being spread far and wide. We talked a good bit about it last time.
27:38But Scarcity Brain really is fascinating, all of the research you personally did and then the studying you did. So what is Scarcity Brain? What does that even mean? And what can we do about it, if anything? Yeah, I like to say that this book, it answers this question. It's like everyone knows everything is fine in moderation and yet we all suck at moderation. And so why is that? And that's what the book explores. It really gets into how humans are really good at consuming, whether it's food, stuff, information, status, things like that. Like it really looks at what we evolved to over consume and why we continue to kind of consume those things, even when it works against us today.
28:27So I think of this like actually as a dad with kids and it's so hard with TikTok snap, you see it happening right in front of your eyes of this addiction, this over consumption. And there's the arguments of this is where all my friends hang out. This is how we communicate. This is where we are. And I get it. Like you don't want them to not have friends. So it's this battle that all these parents of teenagers are dealing with. but man we're seeing it right in front of our eyes and i feel like that we're being bad parents by allowing this what did you learn about this over consumption especially for younger people because i don't know if they fully realize it because i've seen these studies where they've taken whole groups of friends and just took their phones away or at least took away all of the apps other than the the emergency ones so that they were all in the same boat and they they experienced It's an amazingly high level of happiness after a bit of time because they all were in a group together.
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29:30Jonathan Haidt might have done this. I'm not sure. They're all in the group together, and so they didn't feel like they were left out. But if you restrict these things from your kids, they feel left out, and that's really hard. So how do you juxtapose against this overconsumption and how unhealthy it could be with the psychological elements of friends and being part of your friend groups? Yeah, well, I will say the book really gets into why do we get hooked on not just cell phones, but gambling, drugs, eating, like why do we get hooked on all these behaviors? And so part of the book, it gets into this idea of what I call the scarcity loop.
30:13And this is this human behavior loop that's probably the most powerful driver of behavior. It reinforces these kind of quick, repetitive behaviors that are fun in the short term, but that hurt us in the long run. And so this loop, it really rose in casinos in the 1980s. So they put it into slot machines and slot machines took off. They went from basically making the casinos very little money to making up 85 % of casino revenue, like overnight, more or less. And it's got these, to help you understand it, it's got three parts. So it's got opportunity, it's got unpredictable rewards, and it has quick repeatability.
30:51So with any behavior that has those three characteristics, there's a high likelihood you'll overdo it. So opportunity is, you have an opportunity to get something of value. So something that'll improve your life somehow. unpredictable rewards. You know, you'll get that thing of value at some point, but you don't know when, and you don't know how valuable it's going to be. And then three quick repeatability, you can immediately repeat the behavior to try and get the thing of value again. So to put this in the context of a slot machine, you pull the handle, you could win some money, but you're waiting for the reels to fall.
31:25You don't know, am I going to lose my dollar? Am I going to win$2? Am I going to win$2 million? There's this crazy range of outcomes. And then quick repeatability, once those reels fall, you can immediately play the game again, again, again, again. So the average slot player plays 900 games an hour. And really that speed is what makes it so powerful. Now this happens, so this gets really reinforced in the 1980s in slot machines. And eventually Silicon Valley kind of sees people sitting on slot machines for hours at a time doing this behavior where they know the house is going to win and yet they keep doing it.
32:05So they go, how the hell do you do that? Because if we can do that in an app, we can capture some attention. And so this loop is exactly what makes social media work. Let's say you post, right? You have an opportunity to get something. The likes, comments, people telling you you look wonderful, but you don't know how good it's going to be. Are you going to get a million likes and that's like the greatest day of your life? or are you going to get like two when you're like, oh, I guess people don't like me? Are you going to get a comment from someone you love? Or is it going to be a snarky comment from some dude being like, hey, you look like an idiot, right?
32:39There's this big range of outcomes. You don't know what's going to happen. And so what happens? Check and recheck and recheck your phone all day. Same with the algorithms when you're watching reels, right? It's like when you're going through reels, it's like you don't know, is this one going to be hilarious? Is it going to be sad? Am I going to love this one? Am I going to share this one? It's all just random rewards game. And yeah, that system is being put not just in slot machines and social media, but all over the place. Dating apps, it's being put in finance apps, it's being sports gambling, it's alive and well there, all over the place.
33:14Now to answer your question about that, just sort of set the stage for like, why do people get hooked on this in the first place? To answer your question about kids, I think that is very tough. I mean, I will tell you that when I think I've written about this, I think the post is called the smartphone withdrawal effect. It's probably useful for parents. What happens when you take away a young person's cell phone, especially if they're using it way too much? Their life actually gets worse in the short term. So people will do these short studies where they take away people's phones and they're like, hey how do you feel and after a week it's like your life sucks because you were using this app because it was doing something for you right it was curing your boredom it was maybe connecting to you to your friends in a weird way it was maybe filling emotional impulses right when people get sad or bored or lonely they just pull out the phone so if you ask them is your life better a week later they're like no it's not better at all but what happens is that once people get through that initial part where it sucks, their life actually starts improving.
34:23And so you pull people after 30 days, they're like, it sucked at first, but I'm so glad I did this. And that's really the story of all addiction. If you take a drug addict, and you go, hey, no more drugs, their life is going to, it's going to be way worse in the short term. They're going to be going through withdrawals, they're going to be have to relearn life and how do you live it? Check up on them in like a year. And they're like, oh my God, my life is so much better. I have a job. I have a family. It's all the same story, just at different scales and different impacts when you take away something that's giving you this short-term reward at the expense of long-term growth.
35:02So, I mean, it's taking the phone away. Is that the only option? What is the answer here? Because I think for a lot of people, that's not an option. They're like, that's not realistic in my life, whether it's for themselves or their kids. They're like, that's not going to happen. What are other options outside of like cold turkey, like hardcore, just take the thing away or remove all the apps on it? Yeah. I think the best option I found is an app that is called Clear Space. And so what this does to go back to the scarcity loop, it basically interrupts that. So probably the most powerful part of that loop is the quick repeatability.
35:38The faster that you can repeat a behavior that's rewarding, the more likely you are to repeat that behavior. So what this app, ClearSpace, does is you pick the apps that you want to limit. And if you're in a parent situation, you could put this on your kid's phone and whatever. You pick the app you want to limit. And then what happens is that when you go to open it, it'll ask you, do you want to use the app? and you have to go yes because a lot of times we just pull out the phone right you're gonna you're in a line and you just find yourself on instagram or whatever it is so you say yes and then it says okay great let's take a breath and it goes through this like 10 second you know sort of breathing thing shows you a nice quote and then you have to pick how long you want to stay in the app so it could be two minutes could be five minutes you can select the times which times you want to come up.
36:28It could be 15 minutes. Then you have to select the time, and only then are you allowed to go into the app. And you can choose how many times do you want to be able to use the app a day. You could choose three times. You could choose 10 times. It doesn't matter. But you have to go through that whole process that, one, slows it down, really slows it down. And then, two, because you've told yourself, hey, I want to go in this many times, you have to get intentional. Do I really want to use it right now? And then, three, you have to choose how long you want to stay in, because the problem isn't always that you enter it.
37:00The other problem is that we have a hard time exiting the app, right? Everyone's probably had this thing where they go, oh yeah, I needed to respond to that message. And like 25 minutes later, they're scrolling and they're like, wait, why didn't I open that? Why did I open this? So it just forces intentionality and slows things down. It's called ClearSpace. And that's one that we actually did a partnership challenge thing with them for the 2 % group where we had people could sign up for free, pick their apps. And we did a challenge to see who could stick within the limits that they gave themselves.
37:31It was a good time. Was there a before and after of kind of how you felt or how productive you were maybe? I'm curious. I mean, I can tell you personally that since I've put it on the apps that I tended to overuse, my use has gone way down. And to your point, I love that. I have to use certain apps for work, even ones that I maybe spend too much time in. And so it allows me to get more intentional. And it really stops that habitual, just going to pull out the phone and check. When I go to use one of those apps, because they do enhance my life when I use them in the right way. That's the reality.
38:10When I go to use them, I can use them in a way that helps me rather than waste my time. We're talking, I think, some about bad habits. I think scarcity brain has a good bit about bad habits. What are some ways and maybe some methods to help us break bad habits? I go back to what I said about phones and slowing it down. I mean, if you can slow down any bad habit, that's going to be huge. So I'll use a bad habit of buying too much stuff online because you know something that's really changed is that humans always have wanted stuff right possessions there's a lot of reasons for that but the the issue is that in the past like there wasn't that much stuff to get and it was also hard to get i mean even think when we were growing up if it popped into your head hey i could use a new uh backpack you'd have to drive down to the backpack store, right?
39:12And there's only so many options. So it's like, there's this huge time that you had to put into getting this backpack. And in that space of time, you had, you had to really realize, do I really want this backpack? Am I enough to drive down to the store? Do I really need it? Real pause. But now it's like, if I go, oh, I think I need a new backpack, I can literally buy one like three minutes later online. And so if you can figure out a way to insert more time between your decisions that you would consider bad habits, I think that can be a huge help. So in the case of online shopping, I tell people when they ask me, so I put like a 48 to 72 hour hold on anything you want to buy online.
39:54So when you go, hey, backpack, you put it in the cart. Okay, but I got to wait 72 hours, the clock starts now. And people will come back to me and be Like literally, I probably buy one out of five things now that I do the 72 hour rule with because things are so fast with with something like eating to go back to junk food. One of the reasons that junk food tends to make people bigger is because it's a lot faster to eat. So I talked to this guy who's a executive in the food industry, and he said one of the secrets to junk food is velocity, meaning that people can eat it a lot faster. and we eat it so fast that we don't realize we've had it.
40:34Like it takes a while for the signals that basically tell your body that you've had enough to kick in. And so you've just eaten a ton of it and then you're like, oh, wow, I've overdone this. And so even just shifting to unprocessed food, it takes a lot longer to eat. Think about eating a fistful of M &Ms versus like a chicken breast you grilled. You can eat way more calories of M &Ms way faster than a grilled chicken breast than like some broccoli and rice and stuff. I'm trying to think of other examples. I think another example, a good one, that I try to do and sometimes mess up is instead of reacting, try to respond.
41:16And this happens, take a breath. If you're frustrated by a child or somebody else in your life, take a breath and say, respond, don't react. Like that's really something for me to intentionally say, respond, don't react. same with either text and emails sometimes i will immediately click reply to an email and i look at it and what are you doing dude this is so stupid you know like pause respond don't react and wait an hour wait to wait a day to then send that email back or even the text back because if you react quickly, emotionally, the likelihood of you regretting that is much higher than if you waited, let's say, 24 hours to think a little bit, to respond, to take a breath or two or 100, and then respond to the thing.
42:07I have done that both ways where I've really regretted it and messed up versus, yeah, this is a lot better response because I just waited a day or so, thought about it. It's a better email and the relationship is better because of that. So I think that's another thing where time and being intentional about time and using whatever phrase you need, in my case, like respond, don't react, take a breath, then I'm much more likely to not regret whatever I do next. So it's like time, right? It's another thing, just like the junk food, the junk food, you can just, I'm with you. Like I have a sweet tooth.
42:47I can hammer that stuff really fast. And it's like, dude, take some time, take some time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I love that. And I agree. I used to do this thing where I would write, I used to have a, when I was working in magazines, I had a boss that was, let's say difficult. And it wasn't just me, the entire office was like, this guy's difficult. And unfortunately I was the guy below him. And what I would do, he'd send these emails and I would write out exactly what I wanted to say to that guy and then i just i would just never send an email and it was like that gave me an abraham lincoln trick right wasn't it was he known to do that oh was it really i don't know i i somebody might have made this up but this feels like what you do he wrote out the letters and sometimes they were really mean or whatever and he'd put them in the drawer and then he would never send them but it like it like got out the feeling so you wrote these emails but then you would just never send them?
43:42I would just never send them. Yeah. I would write out the email and then, you know, I'd come back to it the next day and then I would go, yeah, that felt good to write that out. I would delete it and then I would respond in a reasonable way. You regret it a lot less. So with scarcity brain and you being such a research intense guy, whether you do it yourself or you're reading and, and, and cobbling together a lot of, of personal plus others, how, how would you say this work changed your life? Hopefully for the better, but I'm curious you personally, how did the scarcity brain work change your life?
44:20Oh, that's a great question. I think it made me think a lot differently about many subjects. One of the big takeaways for me is that a lot of these problems we have today that manifest in everyday life, they're not really our fault. I mean, we're very much wired to do them. Now that said, they are our problem to solve. But I think that framing kind of changes the game. You're not a bad person for wanting to smash junk food, for wanting to sit at a slot machine and smoke cigarettes, if that's your thing, for wanting to fall into a rabbit hole of TikTok videos. It's really not your fault. A lot of the things that we get in trouble with today, they really prey on our sort of evolutionary wiring to do this next easy thing, to be comforted, whatever.
45:06But it is, again, it is your problem though. You know, no one's going to come save you. You got to figure out how do I behave in a world that is filled with all these things that are pretty amazing in the grand scheme of time and space, but that can hurt me if overdone. Another big one for me I'll add too is I've been sober for nine years and there's a chapter in the book about addiction. And I went into that chapter thinking one thing about addiction and I left thinking a totally different thing. And I think that that different thing is actually a lot more useful because you see that addiction really isn't, it's not an either or, there's not like a bright line.
45:44It falls on a spectrum, right? It's like, we're all, addiction is really just choosing, consistently choosing a short-term reward at the expense of long-term growth. And it has different impacts. Like pulling out a cell phone and falling into Instagram instead of doing this work that's going to your job that's going to give you a better long-term return if you always do that like that's a form of addiction of course it's a lot lighter one than someone who chooses you know to do heroin instead of get a job but it's all lives on the same spectrum and i think the answer to it is to ask the deeper question of okay well why am i doing taking this short-term reward in the first place and usually once you start answering asking those questions, I think it reveals interesting answers that can actually improve your life and solve underlying problems.
46:36So the spectrum part with addiction is really interesting to me. I don't think I have, I'm pretty low on that, but it's, it sounds like you, at least for a part of your life were, were not, how did you, is beat it the right phrase? I don't know. How did you break yourself from that addiction? Beat it seems fine. Yeah. So I had a, I had a drinking problem. Um, a lot of my family, my family has a long history of people who like to drink and raise hell and, you know, eventually that, uh, that can be fun. And so until it starts causing all sorts of problems in your life. And for me to bring it back to figuring out the underlying why through writing this book, I ultimately realized that the reason I drank is because I had a rather boring life.
47:31And I'm the type of person that I need to go explore the edges. I need to go, I need to put myself in interesting positions that are a little bit on the edge. And I was working a nine to five at a magazine and I was writing about topics that I didn't really care about. And I just didn't have that much, let's say, exploring the edges in my life. Now, alcohol was a very cheap and easy way to do that. So I knew that if I just started drinking on Friday, it's like, who the hell knows what's going to happen, right? Anything could happen. You can end up at this bar. You could end up at that bar. You can end up at the casino running down a, you know, dice table.
48:09There's all of these crazy things that could, that could happen. And that was interesting. That big idea of like, there's this open and infinite possibilities that you don't know what's going to unfold, but you know, it's going to be a lot more interesting than sitting at home and watching Netflix. So when I got sober, I didn't have that anymore. Right now, I didn't have that. So I had to go, okay, well, how can I get that need to explore edges from something else? And I found it through exercise in nature. I found it through backcountry hunting. I found it through my current work going into interesting places like the Bolivian jungle, all that sort of thing.
48:44And that allows me to sort of scratch that underlying itch I have in a much more productive way that actually enhances my life. And I've made a career out of it, basically. Were you not doing any of that stuff while you were drinking? Not to the extent. No, I mean, I'd go backpacking, I'd go whatever, but it wasn't really a fundamental part of my life on a consistent basis. I had to get it through the drinking. By the way, when you went down on that trek to meet with those groups with the healthiest hearts, what else did you learn from those people? What other key insights did you pull from them beyond the fact that their diet seems to be one we should also do, what else did you learn from them?
49:24I think when you look at a lot of those, when you look at them, I mean, they're, they generally are very happy people and they don't really have much. Were they accepting of you? They were not like, hey, who is this foreigner guy? Like we should kill them. They were cool. I was with a, I had a guide who was part of another tribe that they are friends with. And so he was kind of like, Hey, he's, he's fine. He's just a super, super tall white guy who just wants to walk around with a notebook and take notes and ask questions. They were like, okay. What language did they speak? Um, they speak spoke to money.
50:05So like, this is a very, I mean, it's not, no one speaks it. There's like 30, 30 ,000 people in the world. So how did you communicate? The guide could interpret. Wow. Okay. Okay. So, okay. Anyway, I can't imagine a trip like this just to eventually get there. Now here are these people. What else did you learn from them? Well, I will say that, I mean, and this doesn't just apply to them. This applies to a lot of the other travels I've taken that, you know, in the U.S. we, we kind of have everything in a way. Yeah. And I don't, I think at a certain point, all the stuff doesn't really matter for life satisfaction and happiness.
50:41As long as you have your needs met, I think the way that you live determines happiness. So like they are spending a lot of time outside. They spend a ton of time together because they have to work with each other to, you know, farm food, to gather food, to fish. And I think that that gives them a pretty solid lifestyle. Now, the downsides of where they live is that medical care is very far away and it's not great. So that definitely can hurt their health. But it just kind of showed me, you know, like for this book, I went to Iraq too. And I was surprised at like how many people in Iraq just had the greatest sense of humor.
51:22And it's just hilarious. I had this one guy, I had to go meet with these two guys who were intelligence officers with the Iraqi army. And we meet, it's like this day that we're there, there's this crazy sandstorm and it like overtakes Baghdad and I'm not attached to any military units. I'm not attached to the embassy. So I have this handler and we're just rolling through the streets of Baghdad in this sandstorm. And it looks like it's a freaking scene out of Mad Max. We go to this mall and we meet these two intelligence officers, talk to them for a lot for a bunch, you know, they're like smoking a hookah and I'm drinking this coffee.
52:02That's like literally the consistency and taste of motor oil it's just like the strongest thing i've ever drank and at a certain point they just go what why are you talking to us i go oh i'm writing a book and he just goes won't sell many books here we have real problems we don't have time to read books you know and i just like i just started cracking up because i'm like in that one it's a joke, but there's a very important truth in that joke, right? And that's the fact that I live in a world where we can read books because we don't have that many problems relative to the grand scheme of time and space.
52:42Now, I know people have problems in their life. I'm not discounting that, but I'm just saying on average, this is a country that can read books. And in a place like that, they don't read many books metaphorically. Now, of course, people read books in Iraq, but what he's kind of trying to communicate is that like, Hey, we have a lot more problems, but he's also communicating it in the form of a joke that was hilarious. And so it kind of shows you the power of, even if you have real problems that I think your outlook determines how you experience those problems and navigate those problems. And it was just one of those kind of aha moments for me.
53:25Great perspective. Those are both great examples of why we should travel. It's hard to fully grasp and gain perspective if you don't get out there and see it and talk to people. It's one of the things I noticed when you're online, it can be divisive. There can be people spewing hate, but then I can go, and I'm sure you do the same thing at any part of the country, literally anywhere, and talk to people off the side of the stage or go to dinner with them, whatever. You interact with the people when you're giving keynote speeches, and they come from all different parts of the country for a conference or something, and they all have different political views and different upbringings and life experiences, and everybody is getting along, having a great time, enjoying each other's company, laughing, and they have those differences, They're not all the exact same, but if you live online or on Twitter or something, you feel like, oh my God, the world is awful.
54:27It's so bad. Everyone hates each other. But then you go out and you meet people and you see them and they're different and they have different experiences. They're from different parts of the world. And you're like, this is great. This is awesome. It's like you probably experienced the same thing in all different parts of the world. And if you don't get out there and do that, though, and it can be uncomfortable. You got flight delays. You got stuff you got to deal with, right? If you don't do that, though, I think you could quickly become a cynic and negative and not realize that there's so much good out there, but you do have to go out there and see it.
55:03Yeah, you have to talk to random people, put yourself in odd situations. But yeah, it's a great teacher. I mean, it's, I don't know, it's how I get all my work, and it's definitely very rewarding for me on a personal level. Well, what's next? Are you allowed to say, or are you going to say, what are you doing next? I'm focusing a lot of attention on the newsletter, but I'm also starting to cook up a third book. We're a little slower going this time. I told myself I take a year off and yeah, I've started to work on a proposal, but I think probably by the time we sell it, it'll be a year away from the publication of Scarcity Brain.
55:42So yeah, well, that's, those are the things, man. Is there a gist of it, or is there a thread of an idea of a through line of what it could be? Oh, man. I just got off the phone with my editor for like a half an hour, and I don't think either of us could really say what the through line was at the end of that. We're like so much word salad. We're kind of getting in on it, but I can't even really describe it. But I'll come back to you with that. We'll make sure you get the advanced copy when it drops. Please, please. And I appreciate your team being so good about both of your books, which I highly recommend.
56:17And I probably brought up The Comfort Crisis in 50 keynote speeches since that one came out because I love it. And now Scarcity Brain, also awesome. Fix Your Craving Mindset and Rewire Your Habits to Thrive with Enough. Scarcity Brain, really cool cover too, by the way. Whoever designed that, it's really good. But the inside's even better. So, Michael, I really appreciate you being here. I love all the work that you put out. It's one of the few things that I read consistently all the time. And because I think it just, it'll make your life better. It'll make you a better leader for sure. So thanks again for being here, man.
56:50I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Yeah, absolutely. We'll have to plan on the third one sometime soon. I'd love to go on a hike with you at some point and just to be able to keep up. I don't know if it's going to be Vegas or somewhere else. That would be a fun thing to do. and maybe even record in person, that will definitely change the feeling of this. So I love that we have Zoom, but it would be even better to do something like that in the future. Next time you're in Vegas, hit me up. Let's do it. Awesome. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club.
57:28If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Michael Easter. A few takeaways from my notes. What did Michael learn from the tribe in the Bolivian jungle? They seemed really happy. What'd they do? Well, they ate single ingredient food. They spent a lot of time outside and they spent a lot of time together. So what can we learn from that? Eat healthy, go outside, and spend time with people we love. Next, a lot of problems are not our fault, but they are our problems to solve. Remember, we are wired to choose the escalator.
58:14We're wired to choose fast food or to cut corners. We need to be intentional to take the stairs. We need to be intentional to slow down or to respond instead of reacting. it's on us to have a purpose and be intentional behind all of that because if not we are conditioned to go the easier route and then the scarcity loop how does it work it has three parts opportunity unpredictable rewards and quick repeatability it's like those slot machines or how social media is designed because the people who built those apps learned from the people in Las Vegas, no slot machines. We have to become aware of it so that we can fall into that trap less often.
59:04Ladies and gentlemen, I want to say once again, thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling your friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Michael Easter. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that, and you also go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and you subscribe to the show, and you're rated hopefully five stars, and you write a thoughtful review and by doing all of that you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what i love on a daily basis and for that i will forever be grateful thank you so so much talk to you soon can't wait
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Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com
Michael Easter's investigations have taken him to meet with monks in ancient monasteries in Bhutan, lost tribes in the jungles of Bolivia, US Special Forces soldiers in undisclosed locations, gene scientists in Iceland, CEOs in Fortune-500 boardrooms, and more. He's a professor at UNLV and he's the best-selling author of The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain.
- "The modern world is designed for short-term survival and pleasure. It is not set up to help us thrive in the long term." "Have fun, don't die, read books, and do strange things."
- Be a 2 percenter. 98% of people do the easy thing. We are programmed to do the easy thing.
- The world was uncomfortable a while ago...
- It makes sense to do the easy thing. You get the short-term reward for it.
- Handle adversity, adapt, do the slightly harder thing
- Some ideas: do walking meetings, work in silence, embrace hunger, don't cut corners, pick up the trash, call people on the phone. Ruck the airport. Don't sit down, walk. Read while exercising. Workout outside. Sprint. Lift weights. The ability to move a limb quickly is what helps old people not fall. Need to be powerful and springy to move quickly (and not fall).
- Diet - One ingredient foods. Tribe in Bolivia with the healthiest hearts in the world. Be outside, eat one ingredient foods.
- Scarcity brain - We all suck at moderation. We overconsume... Casinos, slot machines. Quick, repeatable, predictable. The speed makes it powerful.
- Silicon Valley learned this from casinos and it's how they build their apps.
- The smartphone withdrawal effect. Worse in short term. Better in the long term.
- Break bad habits - Slow down. Respond, don't react. Wait 72 hours to buy the thing in your online cart.
- Junk food is super easy to eat fast. It was designed that way. Your body doesn't know it's full because of the speed.
- What did Michael learn from a tribe in a Bolivian jungle?
- They seemed very happy. What did they do? They ate single-ingredient food. They spent a lot of time outside. And they spent a lot of time together. What can we learn from that? Eat healthy, go outside, and spend time with people you love.
- "A lot of problems are not our fault, but they are our problems to solve." Remember, we are wired to choose the escalator, fast food or to cut the corner. We need to be intentional in taking the stairs, slowing down, and responding instead of reacting.
- How the scarcity loop works: It has three parts: opportunity, unpredictable rewards, and quick repeatability. Becoming aware of it can help you fall into it less often.
- Michael has been sober for 9 years. His drinking addiction stemmed from having a boring life (job he didn't like). Needed to explore the edges. Booze did that for him.
- Iraq - Sandstorm. We don't read books here. We don't have that luxury. We have too many problems to deal with.
- In America, we live in a country where we can read books.