615: Brad Thor - The Art & Science of Storytelling, Creating Surprise, Billions, Ray Donavon, & The Willingness (& Ability) To Break The Rules

24:49That if we had touched down in Kabul and I stepped onto the tarmac and started trembling, they were going to secret me away in a hotel room and let me sit there for two weeks while they did what they had to do. And then they were going to come back and get me. I didn't. I actually really had a good time over there. In fact, the best fried chicken I've ever had was in Jalalabad in my life. It was fantastic fried chicken. It was really interesting. I learned a lot. I learned that there's capital T Taliban and little T Taliban, which the best way I can equate that is it's like people that get involved maybe in LA, the Bloods and the Crips, and somebody has an association with one of those gangs because it's necessary for survival.

25:29They're not necessarily a gangbanger themselves, but that's necessary for survival. I learned a lot about the Pashto code called the Pashto Wali, which we did not go into a single village where we were not invited by the village elders because of their code, which is if you're a guest, they will fight to the last man in the village to keep you alive. So that was pretty cool. And then what was interesting is the team that I was with always introduced me, explained who I was and what I did for a living. Because in Afghanistan, there are a handful of professions that are very highly respected. One is physician and the other is actually author.

26:08So there was a lot of street, I don't know if we call it street cred, but it opened a lot of doors. They don't have a lot of authors rolling through Afghanistan, particularly the places we were at. So they asked a lot of questions. They were really interested in writing books. And they would tell me if they had read certain books by Western authors and stuff. It was very, very interesting. There was one other thing. I wanted to go down to Kandahar. There was something that was going to be happening in Kandahar that I wanted to see. And I told the guys I wanted to go down there. And one of the guys on the team who was responsible for kind of knowing what the temperature was in different places we had to go to.

26:46Said, you know what, that's too hot. We would need to take a truckload of panchere with us to serve as extra guys on triggers. He's like, we're not going. And so we cut that out of our trip. And had we gone, there was a massive suicide bombing that happened right at the spot we're going to go to. And they were taking out a police chief with the suicide bombing. And so the guy who had said no to that, who I'd said, okay, well, if we can't go, we can't go. He then made a joke. He said, Brad, you don't even get to decide where we stop to use the restroom for the rest of the trip. He said, your instincts are so bad.

27:20He said, if we had listened to you and gone down there, who knows? We could have all been victims of this terrible terrorist attack. So anyway, the attack itself was not funny. The fact that they acted like somehow I could have seen it coming. that was just kind of busting my chops for the rest of the trip. So it was a fascinating, fascinating time. And I think added my trip over there really added some great color to that thriller, The Apostle. There's something about being there. I think that is a leadership learning too, Brad, because it's one thing to sit in the office and to talk through things with other leaders.

27:59it's completely different to go there see customers be on the front lines general stanley mccrystal talked about that on this podcast how he couldn't stop doing that even though it's dangerous for a four-star general but he had to get out on or near the front lines with the people on the ground to get a real feel for what was happening and it seems like that's something that is very important to you because you want to make your books are fiction and their novels and their thrillers, but in a way, part of what makes them good is how real they are. And I just sense that that's a big value of yours.

28:37Well, first of all, that's high praise indeed. So thank you. And the details are the bedrock of a good thriller. There's that old expression and it applies to details. You watch the pennies and the pounds watch themselves. You need to pay attention to the details. One of the things that drives me crazy is if I'm reading somebody's book and they put a safety on a Glock, there is no manual safety on a Glock pistol. And that's a very simple piece of technical information. And if you blow that, now I start not being able to trust you. There's a willing suspension of disbelief that happens. When you ask people to come into the world that you create, you're not going to psychologically bump them out of the magic of the world that you've created.

29:20But when I read authors that get something that simple wrong, now I'm kind of putting walls up and everything. Now I'm looking for more stuff that you're going to have that's incorrect. I'm not perfect. I have made mistakes. There's no question. But I really pride myself on having developed a network of experts in all of these areas, whether it's the intelligence community, the special operations community, the diplomatic community, law enforcement, just on and on and on. And I've got these people I call my sharpshooters, and I'm able to share the manuscript with them. before it goes to press so that they can say, hey, I think I know what you were talking about here, but you said it wrong, that kind of a thing.

29:59So a lot of people have this image of just the writer toiling away in seclusion, just being in isolation. And it's not true. Without the wide network of experts that I have, without them, I wouldn't be able to write my books. When you think about, Brad, the amazing leaders you've had the good fortune to be around, whether it's a special operations community, your dad, others where you've gotten to witness it up close and personal, your own life as a leader running a business because you are. What have you found to be some of the commonalities among leaders who seem to sustain excellence over an extended period of time?

30:39Well, I will include Stanley McChrystal in this since you mentioned Stan. And a very good friend of mine worked for General McChrystal after General McChrystal left the military and I got to meet him and introduce him at a function. So I got to spend some time with him. There is number one, we talked about empathy, right? In being a good storyteller. So I think empathy is key for a leader. It's one of the reasons that I love that TV show, Undercover Boss. The idea of a leader disguising himself so that he can go in, whether you've got a bunch of franchisees or whatever it might be. But this idea of going in and being able to see things, get closer to the customer and see the experience from the customer's point of view, if you do that.

31:26And at the very least, to see the experience of your employees, your team, no matter where they fall kind of in the organizational hierarchy. So I think empathy is critical for good leadership. We've been given two ears and one mouth. I used to always love that expression. You're supposed to listen more than you speak. But I don't think you can get into a position of leadership without being a good listener. Because if you're not a good listener, you're not going to be able to, one, detect when there are problems, and two, fully take in the information as to what's causing the problem so you can come up with a solution.

32:01Creativity, obviously another big thing for leadership, but I'm a big believer in being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, whether it's a member of your team or your customer, and then being a good listener because there's a lot of stuff. Even when they're not talking, people are talking. So there's so much stuff that your team and your customers will tell you if you're willing to listen. I know authors that hate reading bad reviews on Amazon. And I just say to myself, well, that's just foolish. That's a virtual suggestion box sitting in the lobby of your business. Why would you as the leader, as the author, why would you not want to hear what people have to say?

32:40I know it can be tough when people knock you. You have to have a thick skin. Art is really tough because it's very subjective, right? I could write the best book in the world and I'll have some guy go, this is the worst thing I've ever read. And I can have a thousand people say it's the best thing they've ever read. But the one that sticks with you is the guy that's complaining. Now, if he says it's just he didn't like it, okay, that's subjective. If he gives you details, that's like finding gold. If he says, okay, I didn't like this, this, and this agree or disagree. I'm not a big, I'm not a believer in the customer's always right.

33:11The customer is often wrong. In fact, one of the things that's interesting about being an author is you do get people that want to play gotcha. So they show up on your Facebook. I caught the big author in a mistake. And I'm always respectful. I always say thank you because I appreciate that it's very rare is that somebody playing gotcha. Okay. Oftentimes when I get somebody who shows up on social media to correct me, it's because they love the books and they want to help the author and make me a better author. But what has happened more often than not is that I'm corrected. They're not. So there's a French expression that's very funny and it's, it translates to, to encourage the others.

33:51And you would think that it was a whole thing about, I believe it was one of Napoleon's colonel. No, It was like a lieutenant who ran away from a battle because they didn't think he could win it. And they had him drawn and quartered or something like that to encourage the others. And I used the term in French. And I had five or six people jump on Facebook and say, no, no, no, it's to discourage the others. And then I said, no, no, no. It actually is a funny play on words. And it is to encourage the others. And I put a nice link in to Webster's for where it is. But I've had people say, oh, that gun's not made in.38 caliber.

34:25And I'd say, actually, 10 of those guns were made. Three went to the Saudis. Four went to the British royal family. Here's the article. But the mind's like a parachute, right? It has to be open to work. And if people are going to come to you because they want to make you better and they want to offer you advice, this is where the listening comes in. Again, I always think it's a good thing for a leader. Don't assume you know what's motivating the other person. Keep your mind open like a parachute. Keep your ears open. And what's amazing is those customers, the ones you depend on, they are the reason you're in business.

34:59Your team, absolutely, extremely important that you take care of them and they function well. But the customers will tell you what they want more of. And sometimes they'll tell you what they want less of. And that's, like I said, that's like striking gold. I'm curious about your pre-publishing process of getting feedback from those you trust. So I've written three books so far, Brad, all nonfiction. How many? Three. Three. Good for you. And one of my parts of the process is when it's technically done, then send it to this early group, small group of people that I really trust that I think are excellent writers.

35:35A few of them are lawyers, so they're properly trained from law school. A few of them are just the creative writers. One of them writes fiction. And I say, hey, just like redline this thing to death. And I'm not going to take every suggestion, but I will definitely look at it and consider it. And that's been one of the most helpful processes for me with all three books of sometimes changing things or thinking about them or rewording them or rewriting them before it actually goes to print. what's your process like when you feel like you're either done or close to done do you have a team do you have a group of people that you get feedback from or are you like you know what i've done this a long time i know what i'm doing when i get this thing done i ship it and we go what's it like for you so i have my sharpshooters who are not creative writers they're you know cia guys people from the SEAL community, guys out of the unit, whomever they may be.

36:34And I share with them, former administration or yeah, I try not to bug guys if I know they're currently working for the government, like in an administration. I had a very good friend, but I had a very good friend of mine who was the hostage czar. His name is Robert O 'Brien. And I did a book called Backlash and I had included the hostage czar in there. And I was really delicate with how much stuff I asked him. So I didn't ask him to read the whole book. I'm like, here's a couple of chapters, you know, based on what it is I think you're kind of doing there and could you critique them, that kind of a thing.

37:04So I'm looking for contents, not creativity. I don't want people to say, oh, you could have written this sentence different or whatever. I just want to know, hey, no. In fact, yeah, the Marine Corps White Top Helicopters used to be this type of helicopter. We've now switched them. Those all just came into service in the last 18 months, that kind of stuff I'm interested in. So I get that. I finished the book. my wife is my first reader and I call her Zorro because she goes through with a red pen and she'll just she'll take out stuff if she thinks it's repetitive or it doesn't drive the story forward she's fabulous she could have been a professional editor at Simon & Schuster she's she's great so she'll go through it and then I'll look at the suggestions and I don't always agree with her and then I will I'll make the changes and then send it to my editor at Simon & Schuster and And by the time my editor gets it at Simon & Schuster, it's extremely clean because my wife, you know, the Oxford comma, I mean, anything at all.

37:59You use this word, you meant this word, or this is a better word to use. She's really helpful because instead of just saying, I don't like this, she'll make some suggestions. She'll say, you can say this in one sentence instead of two, and here's how you do it. So I'm very lucky that I have somebody who could be a professional editor just in the other room. Wow. Another cool part of your background and experience is you served as a member of the Department of Homeland Security's analytic red cell unit. How did that happen? What was that like? So in the aftermath of 9-11, when the Department of Homeland Security got stood up, one of the things the federal government realized immediately before the 9-11 commission was ever impaneled, they said this attack was successful because of a failure of imagination on our part.

38:46So they said, we're never going to be caught with our creative pants down again. And they set up this thing called the Analytic Red Cell Unit. And the goal was to bring creative people from outside DC and Northern Virginia in to that part of the United States to help them brainstorm how terrorists might strike, what targets they might strike at home and abroad, that kind of a thing. And so I was invited into it. Michael Bay, the director of the Transformer movies and the Benghazi, the 13 hours movie, Michael Bay was in there and it was pretty cool. I call it the Las Vegas of government programs because what happens in the red cell stays in the red cell.

39:26I can't use any of it for my books. Michael Bay can't take any of it and put it in a movie. You know, as we discussed, my dad, no longer active Marine, but once a Marine, always a Marine. My dad served his country by picking up a rifle. I am honored to have been asked to serve my country by just using the gray matter between my years. So it's one of the proudest things I've ever done in my life is to be able to just be part of the red cell unit for the government. So you were coming up with creative ideas of ways people could attack us and sharing like... Yeah, these are some attack methodologies that might be employed or they would feed us little bits of information.

40:06So you You wondered, did, I don't know, pick anybody. I'm just going to randomly grab like the Defense Intelligence Agency. Did they have some clues where they couldn't understand how they fit together? Like, hey, we've got these Michael Jordan shoes, these kicks that were bought in Brooklyn, but they showed up in Karachi, washed up on the beach. And the kid that found him had been arrested in Lahore three months earlier. And he had a cell phone chip that was sold out of a store in Dallas. how might all these things knit together kind of a thing so and we we didn't know if these were creative exercises or if they were feeding us bits and pieces of puzzles that they had not yet been able to figure out what the full puzzle looked like wow was there a lot of pressure in that room was that tough or like what was it like they were they were actually really really good at creative people are tough to keep focused and you know and to keep up you know they're not good after lunch because they all probably had a glass.

41:05Well, we didn't drink wine while we were doing this, but the creatives can get distracted very easily, but they had good facilitators who really understood because it wasn't just one-on-one. They put us in a room with a bunch of people that we never knew what agencies the other people work for, but it was pretty obvious. All the alphabets in the soup had people there and they were really good. My wife did, when she was in medical school, she did something, a different track for learning called PBL, problem-based learning. And she went on to teach PBL afterwards. And I remember going to some of the PBL sessions with her and it was very interesting on, if you had somebody who dominated a discussion, there are actual physical cues you could do where you give them a little bit of your back and you don't give them the attention.

41:52And it slows them down from sucking all the air out of the room and hogging the full discussion when you had other people that needed to participate. So having been exposed to that through my wife, it was fascinating to watch the facilitators do the same thing. There's some of this stuff, the psychology into how to solicit the best out of everybody in the room. It's a real art form. Wow. So cool. For someone like you that has to be a prolific producer of something, that also, I think, translates to all leaders. Leaders need to be prolific in what they're doing each day. I'm curious about how you regularly build up energy in order to do that.

42:34You got to use your brain constantly. You got to write. You got to do this all the time. And you've been consistent for a long time. So what is your routine? What is your process like in order to build up the energy in order to be a prolific producer of things? So I have a friend here who's a very successful songwriter here in Nashville. His name is John Bettis. And John wrote most of the hits for The Carpenters. And he's written for Madonna. I mean, he just had a lot of success. And Bettis is just a brilliant guy. So creative, very, very smart, very funny. And Bettis asked me a great question once, Ryan.

43:11He asked me, he said, Brad, how do you recharge your creative battery? I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said, well, I'd finish an album. He said, I'll tell you my process. I would finish an album with The carpenters or whatever star I was working with. And I'd hop on my sailboat. He lived in LA at the time. And he said, I'd sail to Catalina and I'd anchor off Catalina for a week. And I didn't have a cell phone. I only ate what I could pull out of the water. And he said, that helped me reset. So in between, I love to travel. International travel is my thing. I had a television show on public television for several years called Traveling Light before I became an author.

43:49And so immersing myself in another culture, always made me a better American, but being able to shut off the news and the constant bombardment that we have coming in at us. I'll put out of office on the email and I'll actually respect it. I mean, I just won't, I won't answer the emails. And I'm very clear. There's a couple of people that know if they text me, if it's an emergency, I'll do it. So that's important between projects. You need to reset whatever that is for you. I mean, they could, I have no idea, but for me, it's international travel. The actual writing of the books, the process, my children are gone now to college.

44:26So I've got an empty nest, but my process is still the same. I treat it like a job Monday through Friday. I get up, I work out, I get into the office by about eight 30 and then I'm here till six, six 30. It's not constant writing, but it is, you know, seat of pants to seat of chair. I mean, the water doesn't flow unless the tap is open. That's an old line about writing. And you can't rewrite, you can't edit a blank page. So there's all of these great sayings about writing, but you really do have to put yourself in the chair, sit in front of the computer. My computer, you can't see. I'm looking off camera because there's a wall and I have a standing desk.

45:06I have a great, beautiful desk. I never use it anymore. I've got this standing desk that I can raise and lower all the time. and I roll my computer over to the blank wall. I don't want to look out the windows. I just have to sit there because when I write, the story plays out on the movie screen of my mind. And again, I want to have the experience writing it that you do reading it. So it's very cinematic for me. And that's the way I write, short, crisp, cinematic chapters. But it really, it can be tough because I am a voracious consumer of news. I get a lot of inspiration from what happens in the news.

45:39And I'm not a sports guy. My politics is my baseball. I am fascinated by politics. I've worked on presidential campaigns, been to the White House. Didn't you run for president or you thought about it? I announced, yeah, I did. I did think about it. And then I ended up leaving the Republican party because I just was unhappy with the way it was going. And so I've been an independent since for several years now. So I just didn't like the direction that it took. And that again, as part of being the son of a United States Marine, we talk about character being destiny and all that kind of stuff in the importance of integrity, just all of the things that you would think about that you would put under kind of the umbrella of what makes for a good leader.

46:20That was drilled into us by my father growing up. It's hire slow, fire fast, all the things you want to look for in your team. And then if you are assembling a team, if you have the privilege of leading a team, what are your duties? Not only to shareholders, leaders in your customers, but also to your team members. And so we really were taught that we're stewards of this country. We don't own America. It's incumbent upon us to leave a freer, more successful, stronger, better defended, more successful nation to the next generation. Because again, we're caretakers. We hand it off and we should hand it to the next generation better than it was handed to us.

47:01So we had a lot, we marinated in leadership and what makes for good leaders growing up with, particularly with my dad, who's a Marine. Wow. So, I mean, to announce, to be the president of the United States is a massive thing, huge ambition. Where were you at in your mind at that point to say, I want to make a run with this thing. Let's go. I'm going to be very honest. I don't like Trump. I never thought he was a man of good character. I couldn't stand him. And I really don't believe that... I don't want to see another... Here's where this is what I'm motivated by, Ryan. I don't want to see another 9-11 to bring us together the way we were on 9-12.

47:40I think people ask me, what do you think the greatest national security risk is to the United States? And I say the internet. The internet has been so bad for us culturally. I don't think we've reaped enough benefits. You see what Instagram does to young girls and even young men, young boys. I just think the internet's terrible. I think it's, we're doing this interview right now, be the internet. That's great. There's not enough goodness in the internet to outweigh the badness in my estimation. I didn't like the fact that people were not directly challenging Trump. He can do his word salad and run rings around people and he just avoids answering questions.

48:13So when I did that, when I said, I want to run, that was during that it was in the lead up to the primaries. I wanted to see if I could pull enough to get on the debate stage with him to really put issues about character and leadership and that kind of stuff and what makes America great. It's, you know, I had to build a wall and all this nonsense, you know, his tariff war with China, the amount of subsidies that went to U.S. farmers, it was twice as much as the U.S. auto bailout. And Americans don't know this because they don't have the attention spent. Not enough Americans know. There's plenty who do.

48:43I can't say Americans don't know this. But there are so many things that I think are important in, we are the greatest nation in the history of the world. If you were a soul up in heaven right now and God was saying, okay, you can be born at any time in history and in any country, but I'm not going to tell you what color you are, if you have any handicaps, what your sexual orientation is going to be. None of that. You just get to pick the time and the place you're born and roll the dice on everything else. You would pick America right here today, right now. And I think that matters. And I think protecting what we are is important.

49:18That said, I also understand the surge in populism that we've had. I mean, it's not just us. It's Brexit in the UK and things like that. There's a lot of ways in which globalization failed the United States. You have these towns where grandpa worked at the factory. My dad worked at the factory. Shit, the factory's closed. What do I do now? And it's not like the Dust Bowl and all these other kinds of things where there was no government assistance and people had no choice. If you wanted to eat, if you wanted to survive, you packed up everything you owned in your car and you drove someplace else where the jobs are.

49:50That doesn't happen now, right? People can get a certain amount of government assistance. And by the way, I've never met anybody who's on government assistance who likes being on government assistance, but people can get glued in place. And we've got the fentanyl crisis and people are abusing drugs and things like that. I think that we were very short-sighted in maximizing profit. I'm a capitalist. I like maximizing profit. But when we began to offshore everything, I don't think anybody, not the politicians, not a lot of people in boardrooms. I think the focus was such that If people didn't take a breath, there wasn't the empathy to say, what does this do?

50:31We're now taking our business away from this factory in the Rust Belt. What happens to those people? And now we're reaping that just the way the Brits did too with Brexit. There was a reason right up until the vote, they thought, oh, we're not going to exit the EU and all this kind of stuff. And it showed a lack of empathy. It showed a lack. They wanted to paint people as hillbillies or just uneducated blue collar workers. These are your fellow countrymen and women. You can be a capitalist. You can be about maximizing profits. I know I like to see profits maximized at companies I invest in, but we have responsibility as citizens, as Americans.

51:07And I just think, again, mine's like a parachute, got to be open to work. I think we're kind of learning. Unfortunately, sometimes we only learn lessons in hindsight. And I think we're learning a big one now. And again, the populism, it's not just here. The Germans have it, the French. I mean, there's a this is the it is not just an American issue. It is a global, particularly in the Western world. It is a big issue. So that's the kind of stuff I wanted to be on stage talking about. I didn't want Trump to be able to rope a dope the other people. And having worked on a couple of presidential campaigns, I understood that if you want to if you want to really get into it with this guy, you've got to be able to kind of put Marcus Queensberry rules aside and go after him and not let him rope a dope you and get some answers.

51:51And then I realized it's I wasn't going to pull support that I wanted to pull. And the country was going a certain direction. And I was watching the Republican Party fall in line behind Trump. And I was like, OK, this is this is not the part. You know, listen, I'm a sunny Reagan optimist. Reagan wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I thought he was fantastic. I really liked him. I liked his personality, like what he did as a leader. I thought he was very, very courageous, creative, empathetic, funny. Goodness, that guy was funny. So I just felt compelled to rise to the level, to the calling that we were taught as kids in my house, that we are responsible for this country.

52:32And like I said, hand it down to the next generation better. So that's what had influenced that. but i don't feel like my my family my family jokes ryan that like alan on there should be a 12-step program for me except it would be called on and on and on i feel like i found what you're really passionate about yeah i don't think that's the end of your politician days brad i don't know like you're gonna run again for something you know what i i have this dream and my wife doesn't my wife doesn't like politics. So I have this dream about going back to Chicago. I feel like you love it though. I do.

53:09I do. I love it. I have a friend of mine back in Chicago who's in the media back there and he keeps encouraging me to come back and run for mayor of all things, of Chicago. And I told him, I said, you know, if I ever did do that, I would launch my campaign from a very significant place. I'm not going to give it away because if I ever do it, I want it to be a surprise. But I've thought about it. I don't know that I have the necessary background to go for such a high office so quickly. But you know what? I mean, at some point, my kids are grown up. They are insulated. I would hate to run for politics and have all the slings and arrows coming my way and my kids active on social media and having to hear that stuff.

53:49But as they become adults, that might be, I don't know. We'll see which way the country's going. But I would love to see us again. I don't want another 9-11 to bring us together. I really hope that doesn't happen. Yes, 100%. I do look forward to seeing this announcement in Chicago here in the future, though. One more question, Brad, before we got to go. I'm curious for somebody who is a bit earlier in their career who wants to be a professional writer. They want to earn their living through writing, which is insanely hard. You've been doing it for a while. A tiny, tiny percentage of people who want to do it actually get to do it.

54:24So I know it's a long shot for everyone, but what life slash career, because I know there's a life element too, it's not just the career part. What life slash career advice would you give to a person like that? You just got to keep writing. You got to keep writing and writing and writing and rewriting. Mary Higgins Clark used to get up two hours before the rest of her family and sit at her kitchen table and write. And she's one of the most successful authors ever. I mean, Stephen King was a school teacher and he was writing. So you just need to do it. You know, writing is something you can always get better at.

55:00So that's the other thing too. I mean, I'm, I've met this year, like we said, over two decades, 24 books, and I'm still reading books about how to get better as a writer. I don't think I'll ever be finished learning how to be a writer. So, and I would also say so many people I see jump right into the self-publishing thing. And I don't know if you want to make a career, some people can, some people can, but I think, you know, I don't want to be so kind of high bound and old school to say, you know, the only way to do it is through a traditional New York publisher kind of a thing. Cause there's plenty of people doing it on, on, on the internet and things like that.

55:34And I, it's, it's hard. I got to tell you, I don't know that I've got a magic piece of advice. I was very lucky. I came out of the TV world where I had a bit of a brand developed already because I was doing my travel show nationwide on public television. I was able to parlay that in my stuff with the Department of Homeland Security. I was able to discuss not what happened in there, but terrorism issues that was really, really big. I mean, my first book came out only a couple of months after 9-11. So that for a long time with the Global War on Terror. That was a big subject. So I think to sell books, you have to figure out a way to let people know about your books.

56:15And that's probably the biggest thing is you could write the best book in the world, but if nobody knows about it, you're not going to sell any copies outside your family. So that's the key is how do you have a non-fiction, if you're a fiction author, what's your nonfiction hook? Because traditionally, if you want to do TV, local TV, all that kind of stuff. Normally authors aren't good interview subjects. So there's a built-in resistance to putting authors on TV. It's a great way to sell books and to let people know about them. But Sows probably adds on Facebook and things like this. You just have to be creative.

56:44You have to realize that it is a business. You have to write a great book and then you have to figure out ways to sell it. Because even if you have a New York publisher, you're still going to need to know how to sell your books because you're going to want to augment what they're doing. I don't know if that's helpful. That's actually a curveball. I hadn't considered that question, to be honest with you, Ryan. So I don't necessarily have a canned answer ready to go on that one. That's a tough question. No, no. The other thing too, I actually have one more, is a lot of us, I put myself in this camp of we're strivers, we're trying to sustain excellence ourselves as leaders and build things.

57:19And so we read a lot of nonfiction and sometimes that puts the fiction on the back burner, even these great thrillers like you write. And you teased this earlier that there is a lot of science to back up the fact that us, again, putting myself in this camp, need to be reading more fiction, need to be reading these thrillers. It'll make us better. Can you share a little bit about why the primary group of people who read nonfiction should actually read more fiction? Yeah. Particularly if you are a leader, which involves a tremendous amount of problem solving, right? A good majority of your day as a leader is like constant problem solving.

57:57So there is a very solid base of scientific study that shows that if you read fiction, we're not talking about nonfiction now, we're specifically talking about fiction. Again, if you read fiction, that your empathy develops. So we talked about how important it is for leadership to have empathy. So your ability to be empathetic increases. Blood pressure comes down, which a lot of leaders need. and it also helps with your creativity. So reading different characters' points of view and all this kind of stuff and trying to guess what's going to happen next in the book, actually, listen, we all know your brain's a muscle.

58:40It's got to be exercise like every other muscle. Fiction exercises the brain in such a way that it contributes to great leadership skills. Empathy, problem solving, creativity, and you have the added physical benefit of lowering blood pressure. So that's just some of the things that there's a good body of science out there that supports how good reading fiction is, particularly for leaders. Love it, man. And if you're going to get started, maybe on your first fiction thriller, why not start with Shadow of Doubt? This is by Brad Thor here, my guest. and then once you get started with that, I have a feeling it will make you, because like you said, these are like Bond movies.

59:26You don't have to read them in an order. You could just pick them up, pick anyone up. And I think once you get hooked on one, and I know you have probably countless examples of this, you'll then go to the next and the next and the next and the next because you realize, oh, I didn't realize I like this stuff, but this is amazing. I love reading these fiction books. I'm going to keep going. So I highly recommend, let's start. especially if it's your first one, or if it's not, hit up Shadow of Doubt by Brad. Well, I appreciate that. And I have to tell you, what's really interesting is my protagonist is dealing with the greatest leadership issue of his career in Shadow of Doubt.

1:00:02So he's got one foot in one particular arena, one foot in another, and there are all these forces back in DC that want to pull him over the line one direction where he doesn't know if he wants to go. So he's wrestling with what it means to be a leader and what he wants his future as a leader to deal with. So he's a spy. There's lots of action, but there is this subtle kind of theme about what is leadership that reverberates throughout the book. So good. Brad, thank you so much for being here, man. I know we went on a wide range of topics beyond just writing thrillers, but I really appreciate learning more about you, your background and the stories.

1:00:39And I certainly think this will be helpful for leaders. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Absolutely. Absolutely. It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Brad Thor. A few takeaways from my notes, effective storytelling. Don't start with the weather. Leave out the parts people skip. Don't be boring. I think this same advice is useful for leaders when we're communicating with our teams.

1:01:23Put ourselves in the shoes of the audience and think what does it feel like to be receiving this message or this story? How can we most effectively share our message without being boring. And remember, the more entertaining it is, the more memorable it will be. So if we're trying to clearly communicate something and make sure that the message sticks, we need to think about the story. Think about making it entertaining. Then excellence as a leader. What Brad has seen from the military leaders he studied. Empathy. Understand what it's like from their perspective. Again, it goes back to the storytelling.

1:02:02Listen. Care for your people. Actually listen to them and be there. And then creativity. This is how we innovate. This is how we think of new creative ways to solve problems. And I like the end, the advice for writers. Got to keep writing. Mary Higgins Clark did it for two hours each morning before her family woke up every day. And so whatever it is we want to be great at, we have to get the reps. Consistency beats intensity. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Brad Thor.

1:02:43I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify or Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show. You write a thoughtful review. You rate it five stars, hopefully. And by doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.