654: Jake Tapper - The Most Important Leadership Skill, Handling Criticism, Chasing Your Curiosity, Understanding Tradeoffs, Responding to Rejection, and Being So Good They Can't Ignore You

26:59Before I wrote The Outpost, I didn't have any experience covering war or, I mean, I guess I'd been to Iraq, but I didn't really have any major experience covering war or writing about these things. And I think it's the humility of accepting that I didn't know enough about these things. When I was writing The Outpost, I would send chapters to people who were there, who were experts. I found a couple of guys who, like one of them had served in this part of Afghanistan with the State Department. Another guy was a linguist who was an expert on this particular region in Afghanistan. It's called Nuristan.

27:35It's where the man who would be king takes place, the Rudyard Kipling book. It's like the Afghanistan of Afghanistan. It's like this incredibly isolated, dangerous place in Afghanistan. And they would come back with harsh criticism, really harsh criticism. And I came to value that so much because it hadn't been published. So it was okay. I could fix it. And, you know, they were unrelentingly harsh. I don't believe the story. This is so ethnocentric, how you're writing this. This is like white savior complex, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, great, great. Thank you. Thank you for the feedback because you can fix it if it hasn't been published yet.

28:16Right. So I think that's also one of the things that's important is having the humility to accept that I'm not an expert on any particular thing, really. I'm a journalist, which means I try to be an expert on whatever I'm covering at that moment. But having the modesty, the legitimate humility of saying, I don't know what a battalion is versus a company, like explain that to me, has been an important part of the process, I think. I think this willingness to be a beginner, this willingness to show up in places where you're not the expert or you don't know everything of what you're talking about is a superpower.

28:59I think it's a useful skill for leaders to have. And I think it is a skill because you got to be tough. You got to have some inborn confidence that's been created throughout your life. So like I can show up and be a beginner. I've never done this. I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm willing to chase down my curiosity. I think more leaders would benefit from developing that skill. Jake, that leads me to another question I have that's leadership focused. So you've interviewed presidents, generals, world leaders, and I'm sure there's lots of different things you've picked up from those conversations you've had.

29:36What are some of the most useful leadership lessons you've learned from talking to some of the most powerful people in the history of our world. I think the humility part of it is really important. And I don't know, some of this is from interviews. Some of this is just from observation. I mean, I've been a journalist now for almost 30 years. And I have this theory, the great people often achieve as much as they can to the point that they are able to remove from their inner circle anyone who tells them they're being an asshole or making the wrong decision. They often do that. They often, you know, remove any critic from their inner circle.

30:22I call it the Jar Jar Binks theory. It's kind of a bad name, but it's because I think Jar Jar Binks is a horrible creation in the Star Wars movies and that somebody should have been there telling George Lucas, please don't put that Jamaican frog in the movie. It's a horrible idea. The movie still made six billion dollars. So whatever. But I think of it that way because it doesn't even matter about the success of the project, per se, as it is about the worth and the quality of the work. So, for instance, Joe Biden is a good example of somebody who, by the end, was surrounded by his top aides and his family who they were not honest about what was going on with him.

31:02There are a lot of presidents who have had that problem. I think that that is the number one thing. It is very important to surround yourself with people and not just a spouse who will tell you when you're airing, as my wife without question does, but also, you know, your executive producer, your chief of staff, your top eight, like you need people around you, not just to keep you humble, but to protect you from yourself. Mm-hmm. And I think that that is the most important lesson in leadership because I see it violated all, like every day, all the time. I mean, it's just over and over and over.

31:42You say, why would they do that? Well, because they have removed every critic from their inner circle. So they don't even have a clear view as to how they look or what this might look like. They don't have anybody like that. And this is, you know, not to beat up on Joe Biden, but we saw this in the, when Alex and I wrote the Biden book, Original Sin, like that was something that we saw was the removal of any skeptic from the White House. It is something that in Race Against Terror, you don't see because these are incredibly collaborative people working and pushing and stress testing. And also the guys, the heroes of this book is not, they are not like, it's not the president, it's not the attorney general, it's like assistant US attorneys.

32:23It's like people who are, they are the ones to tell other people when they're screwing up. So because it's like upper mid-level people, they don't have the hubris. They have people on top of them pushing down. But I think that's a really, really important lesson. And I see it violated all the time. I've seen this too. And it's funny. I actually just had this conversation with my close group of friends, like the coaches I work with. I maybe point to an example of someone who has kind of lost it, meaning they've surrounded themselves with, yes, men and women. And I'll say, Do not ever let that happen to me.

32:56I'll do my best to do the same for you. Who do you have in your life that does that? Who pushes back on you? So I work with a group of coaches. One of their number one skills, not only for me, but just in life, is they are truth tellers. I think excellent coaches can see the truth and they're not afraid to tell you and they're not afraid to say it. Now, a big part is they have to have this underlying care and love for you. Genuine care and love. Genuine. because some people that are in your life are a little bit envious. They're a little bit jealous. I know you've got these people, even if you don't want them because you're a powerful person.

33:31You've risen up. And so, yes, hopefully you have those truth tellers. It sounds like you do. But also there are some of those that are kind of on the fringe or around that are like, I don't know, man. I don't know if I like Jake, but do I love him? You know, you want the people who love you and care for you and also will say, Jake, dude, what are you doing here? You've lost it or you're just wrong Or what you said last night, I don't know if that was the right way to go about it. What if you said it this way? And then you just say, ah, like, I know he loves me and I appreciate that. You know what I mean?

34:04I assume, like, is that how you try to design your team where it's not only welcomed, but encouraged to speak up to you to say, hey, I think we maybe approached that one wrong. We should maybe look at it like this. Yeah, I mean, and I'm not deluded enough to think that like the power imbalance doesn't have an effect on whether or not people are willing to say something to me or to other people. But without question, I have my executive producers and I go back and forth on stuff. Do you guys fight like healthy fight? Yeah, I mean, right now I'm thinking of my State of the Union producer is this incredible executive producer named Rachel Streitfeld.

34:46She's fantastic. But she and I disagree. Like, I would, you know, like, I would like to have, and this is just a regular TV discussion, but, like, if it were up to me, I would do one interview for, like, half an hour, and she would rather do two or three. And, like, it's a television programming and also a journalistic debate, and it's a discussion, and then we lock horns on it. There's no right answer or wrong answer, but we disagree on that. Look, and I value that. I don't want a yes person. I want somebody like it's a fight we continue to have because it's not like I'm right and she's wrong or vice versa.

35:24It's we disagree. And it's a healthy tension. And it's about something substantive. You know, it's not like I'm trying to book Kim Kardashian. It's completely there's no right answer on that. And sometimes I'll do an analysis, a news analysis, and we'll discuss whether or not I'm going too far or I'm not going far enough. I mean, that's a healthy conversation that we have in the newsroom. I certainly encourage people to speak up. But like I said, I'm not naive enough to think that means like a 23-year-old desk assistant is going to feel like she can just come in my office and say, I don't like this topic or whatever.

36:01Like she should, but I know that it probably is intimidating. But I hope that there is at least that kind of environment fostered where even if it's not brought up at a meeting, it can be voiced. Why do you think so many powerful leaders struggle with this? Does it stem from an insecurity? Technically, it's more comfortable just to have people blow smoke and tell you how awesome you are. My background's in sports, and so I'm used to getting annihilated by coaches every day when they watch practice film and game film. I almost feel like I'm not living if I'm not getting critical feedback because it's been hammered into me since I was 5 till 26.

36:41and so I need it. I need it. Give me some feedback, like critical feedback so I can get better so I can get better because like the people who I love so much in my life were coaches and but I'm the same way. It's funny. Yeah, you know what I mean? But like now you're seeing it, whether it's presidents or other powerful people where it's like, dude, who's around that guy to tell him? No, man. Why do you think this is such a thing? I think any sort of leadership is difficult. Yeah. And I think any sort of leadership comes with, especially in this day and age, comes with a tremendous amount of criticism.

37:14And often, let me just put myself in the shoes of Donald Trump, just for the sake of this exercise. President Trump has a very difficult job. This is just like, remove what you think about Donald Trump from anybody listening. Remove what you think about him, whether you love him or you hate him or you're in between. He has a very difficult job. And if you go online, you will find the the nastiest, most personal attacks, not only on him, but his appearance, his wife, his daughter, his sons, his grandkids. Like, there is the nastiest stuff out there. In addition, and this could apply to any president, so don't think like this is about Trump, but like, in addition, he's getting death threats, he had assassination attempts, he literally has to walk around in a protective bubble because people will try to kill him.

38:06So you put yourself in that environment. And then you say, well, why isn't he listening to criticism? Yeah, that's a good point. You know, like his entire life is criticism. Now that doesn't mean I don't think he should listen to criticism. I do. And I think he could probably be an even better president if he had more skeptics around him, all that stuff, as I thought about Biden, et cetera, et cetera. But to any smaller degree, let's say, I'm just going to keep picking people who people won't expect me to sympathize with. Let's say Sean Hannity, right? Yeah. Sean Hannity, same thing. He does a show every night.

38:42I'm sure he brings his best to it. I'm sure he thinks he's doing the best show he can do. And he's providing entertainment and news and analysis. And he's getting, he's making lots of money for Fox, this and that. And again, he probably has to have with security detail. The criticism on him, I'm sure is unrelenting. So in a situation like that, it might not be like the first impulse of somebody to say like, okay, give me some criticism. Yeah. Right. So I understand how it could happen that somebody removes critics from their sphere. And I'm not saying that about Trump or Hannity. I'm just citing them as two examples of how tough it can be and to be in the public sphere.

39:25So I think it makes sense. Now, Now, add on that, if you're a general, you're literally getting shot at, right? If you're a Hollywood star, your life or death is like whether or not you get good reviews and the movies come out. And if your movie fails, then literally maybe you're going to lose your job and your money and your power. And I mean, so the stakes are very high on a personal level. So I understand it. My point isn't that the criticism makes me a better person. My point is that it makes me a better journal. That's, I think, the point. And I'm humble enough to know that every day, I could stand criticism about what we could have done better yesterday and what we should do better tonight.

40:09One of the attributes I think you're exemplifying that we all would be better served having is the ability to legitimately put yourself in someone else's shoes. I don't think most of us do that, hardly ever. We don't sit there and actually think, wait, what would it... A lot of times this happens getting a company. It's just so easy to criticize the CEO when you're down multiple layers below. It's so easy to criticize the senior leadership. But if you've never taken the time to have an understanding of what their life is actually like, what are they faced with, what are their struggles, their problems, what you just showed is...

40:50It actually helped me be a little bit more reasonable because I don't know what that's like. I don't know what death threats and having to have, you know, assassination attempt. Like, I don't know what nobody really knows what that's like. But you're sitting there, hey, why don't you guys think about that a little bit? It might make you just a more reasonable person. Now, that still doesn't say, hey, you should just surround yourself with yes people. But I do think in general, a good leadership skill is to try to understand the world through somebody else's eyes. And if you can do that, you'll probably have higher EQ.

41:21You'll be able to better relate with people and probably become a better communicator and understanding of others. And that's a good leadership skill in itself. One of the things that's tough about it, and I know this from personal experience, is that it's very difficult to try to maintain that when you're talking about people that are being relentlessly unfair to you. Yes. Twisting things you say and attacking you personally and attacking your family personally, this and that. I have experienced that to a much smaller degree than President Trump or President Biden, but I know what it's like and it sucks.

41:56One of the things I think is so interesting about President Trump is he drives so many people crazy, but it's not just his supporters who are driven to the point of illogic that they'll support anything he says or does, even if it contradicts itself or whatever. It's also his opponents. He drives his opponents crazy where they are just like knee jerk opposing anything he says or does, twisting this, that, the other. And they often beclown themselves in their hatred of him. Again, I understand it because it's difficult when you're in the public eye and people are just like really coming at you like other public officials to try to maintain the state of decorum and grace and respect for them when they're not doing it for you.

42:44so i i get it i understand why president trump or others are like so angry and so inclined to lash back because psychologically it's it's not pleasant and i can't say that i've maintained 100 like i have in my mind tweets that i wish i hadn't written etc uh since deleted so you can't find them but i'm sure they're out there somewhere uh but like you know moments where i was like I got mad and I betrayed the best version of myself that I want to be. Yeah. Well, I think the other thing is to realize, and I've realized this after 650 of these things is every single person I've talked to, they've sustained excellence.

43:22They've done amazing things. They're also humans and humans are messy and the world's not black and white. It's really gray. Right. And we all do stupid stuff from time to time. And I think that's life, man. Like I think It is weird. We put people on pedestals. We think they're not humans, but then you get to know them and you're like, yeah, impressive, super hard worker, really smart, gets after it. Good leader, good person, also a human who makes mistakes and does dumb stuff sometimes. And I think that's a realization we need to come to. Yeah, no, we're all fallible. I was just listening to the, I'm a big Dave Matthews fan.

43:57I was listening to his channel on SiriusXM. Oh my God. I've been to 80 plus shows. Are you one of those guys too? Do you like you go to tons of them? i know i go to one or two a year i mean i've been listening to him since um 91 or 92 uh is the first time i heard him he came to philly he opened for the spin doctors at the chestnut cabaret at penn we went to go see the spin doctors and we're like who's this opening act is really good i don't know how many times i've seen him i just saw him in montana with my brother it was incredible an incredible show at the big sky so anyway i was listening to his channel on sirius xm channel 30 as I'm sure you know and Nikki Glaser yeah and he's talking about Ozzy Osbourne who just passed away and he was just saying like every time he said he said something along the lines of they say don't meet your heroes because they'll always disappoint you and basically that's true except for Ozzy Ozzy was always awesome and I was thinking like wow you're Dave Matthews you've met everybody I'm like who disappointed you like you know I wanted to find out like who is awful but i'm sure you know because he catches them backstage at a concert and they're exhausted and 70 years old 80 years old you know and it's like we're all we're all so broken and like imperfect and like it's okay to acknowledge that yeah jake i meant to say this earlier but i really dug deep into your work back in 2019 because of your daughter alice oh yeah she wrote a book called raise your hand, which we have read as a family, uh, quite a bit.

45:31You have, cause you have how many daughters you have four or five, five amazing. God. And so I'm, I'm curious. How many bathrooms do you have? Not enough. Okay. Mine is overtaken from time to time, but I'm curious, like how you balance an excellent career, right? You just dropped your daughter off at school and college, which I can't even imagine that day. I'm going to lose my mind. But you just dropped her off at college. She wrote this great book called Raise Your Hand. And I think it speaks to, I mean, certainly to girls and to women, but also just to, I think, leadership in general, right?

46:06I think Raise Your Hand is a good idea. How have you balanced, again, an amazing career where you've sustained excellence over decades, both writing books, bestsellers, and the main dude on CNN for quite a while now, with also being a really good husband and being a great dad? Well, first of all, let me just say Alice and her mom get all the credit for raise her hand. Alice noticed when she was like eight or nine that all of a sudden the girls in her class weren't raising their hand and the boys in her class were. Yeah. And even if the boys didn't know the answer, they just raised their hand. She talked about it with her mom, my wife, Jennifer, and they took it to the Girl Scout troop and they came up with a patch, the raise your hand patch, which is basically you promise to raise your hand in class if you think you know the answer and you promise to get three other friends.

46:55And if anybody's listening out there who has any connection to Girl Scouts, this is a patch that anybody can get. She did the patch. I was so proud. I tweeted about it. Barry Weiss, who was in at the New York Times, saw that, said, would Alice like to work with us on an op-ed? She did. That came out online. Penguin Books saw that, said, would she like to write a book? Yes. And she worked with the editor and wrote a book called Raise Your Hand. And I'm very proud of her, but that's all Alice and Jennifer and the Girl Scout troop, honestly. I mean, look, I have tried to be the best and most supportive dad I can be.

47:28We have a son, Jack, too. He's 15. I can't sit here and pretend that I've always been here and there have been no sacrifices or that I'm a perfect dad or anything like that. And in fact, when Jennifer and I dropped Alice off at Michigan, I came home and I wept for the first time in, since 2021, when Alice was sick. That's another story, but she's a hundred percent fine now. She wrote it. There was a follow-up book called Use Your Voice about speaking up at the hospital. That's another kid's book. In any case, one of the parts of my weeping was about everything I missed because the 18 years goes like that.

48:04And I thought about like all the time I wasn't there because I was at work or because I was in Iowa or Afghanistan or whatever. So, you know, there are sacrifices. And I think, you know, what I've been able to provide for Alice is unconditional love, hopefully reasonably wise advice, good editing. And I'm a good editor for any email my wife, son or daughter want to, although my son's never used it. But anyway, um, and support and like financial support so she can do whatever she wants to do. The truth is that's what I cried about is the stuff I missed that I wasn't there for because I was chasing a story or on assignment or whatever.

48:48So, you know, that's something I've been thinking a lot about because, you know, she's not, she's a college. She's not gone from this earth. So, uh, there's still time to rectify that. Yeah. We've talked about this a little bit earlier. I just happened to look at the clock and realize how much time has passed so quickly. This has been such a good conversation. I haven't. Yeah, I really, really appreciate it, man. Because like I said, I've followed your work for a long time. And I love people who are able to take these wild stories and turn them into books. Because I've done it a few times and I know how insanely hard it is and how much I doubt and struggle through the process to get a book to the finish line.

49:25You've done it so many times and they're so, so good on top again of doing all the stuff you do at CNN. And I'm just curious for people who a little bit earlier in their career, and again, we hit on this a little bit earlier for that person who's like, you know what? I want to leave a positive dent in the world. I don't know how yet, but I do. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you give to that person? I mean, so the first thing I would say is if they're interested in journalism, like anybody can be a pundit. and especially in this day and age when punditry is just basically just people insulting other people right online be a reporter be a journalist like i this is famous last words i can't imagine writing a memoir because it's really who cares i think you should no well i even know maybe when i'm 80 and i need to figure out a project and i got you know but i'm telling you the stories of other people are so much more interesting.

50:25And what other people think about issues going on, whether it's like Jonah Goldberg or Ashley Allison, another Democratic pundit we have, or whoever, like what they think is much more important than what I think. And what politicians think about issues are much more important than what I think. So as a general rule, other people are more interesting than you in terms of journalism. Hard work is very important. The advice I give to young people, especially people in college who have never really experienced it, so much of life is rejection. There's so much rejection in life. It's nonstop. It is just a constant flow.

51:07You cannot stop it. And you cannot revel in it. You cannot marinate in it. It just is. And just know that. And know how much there is out there and don't take it personally. or if there is some constructive criticism that's part of it, then learn from that to improve your game. Truth is, like most fields in the humanities, there's a tremendous amount of rejection. Journalism, history, English, fiction, interviews, whatever. So just knowing that and like coming to terms with the fact that Dr. Seuss's first book was rejected by 47 publishers or whatever, you can go through a list of them. There are so many examples of really worthy artists and projects being told you're worthless.

51:56And you just can't let that be the final word. So rejection and hard work. And then the other thing I always tell young people is nobody will give you a job to be nice. It just doesn't work that way. People are nice to you throughout grade school and high school, even college. knowledge but the idea is nobody will do anything for you generally speaking in the professional world to be nice they'll do it because you have something they want and so just have that thing and then it doesn't have to be like steve martin's advice of be so good they can't ignore you because obviously so few people are born with the skill of steve martin but for most fields hard work is enough for most fields hard work is enough for journalism hard work is enough and that means like I really want this job I will be here at six in the morning and I will be the last one to leave at night and I will do anything you want tell me where to go tell me where to be you know here are my clips blah blah blah I mean it can be that simple and then once you kind of accept those truisms for me life can become a lot more pleasant because then it's it doesn't feel like just an unrelenting wave of rejection it's just like okay remember in survivor where tom hanks is like trying to get out his raft he's trying to leave the island and there's this one wave to his raft cannot get past but he figures out how to do it it's just like this timing and it's like every seventh wave you can sneak in like if you work hard enough you can sneak past the wave on the seventh time.

53:38I mean, it just, every code can be cracked. Yeah. You got to keep going. I try to remind people too, that you get hired to make that person's life better. Yeah. To help that company, to help your boss, to, again, they're not hiring you because like, oh my God, you're amazing. It's like, wait, you can solve a problem. Yes, I can solve a problem. I will figure that out. I will help you. I will make your life better. That's why you do it. And you get promoted for the same reasons. Like it's amazing how it works, but you kind of got to get out of your own head to do that. And I love the idea of just, you got to keep fighting through the rejection.

54:10If you look at the stories of people who have sustained excellence, they've all faced some sort of rejection or adversity and they just kept at it. They kept at it. Part of winning is just staying in the game. Too many people quit and that's why they lose because they don't have a chance to win. Oh, a hundred percent. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. And look, I mean, So Original Sin was the Biden book I wrote. And look, I have no idea how well this book is going to do. I hope it does well. But honestly, to me, it's just like, I wrote this book. I'm proud of it. I hope people buy it. I hope people enjoy it.

54:42I mean, I'd like it to be a bestseller, all that stuff. But like, it is the work that it is. But Original Sin, just to bring it back to the rejection thing, Alex and I started working on the book the day after the election. Because we're like, what happened? That was not normal. And I still don't like, how bad was it behind the scenes? And we start working on it. And Alex and I, and I said to Alex, like, we were working on the book. We didn't have a publisher. I mean, he had an agent and I had an agent and they were working on shopping around. You know, we wrote a proposal and then they work on shopping it around.

55:14But I said, I don't care if we self-publish this and put it on eBay. I just want to answer this question and write this book. Now, it turned out that there were a couple of publishers that were interested in. And ultimately, Penguin Random House published it. but I'll say there were publishers that rejected it that didn't even want to read the proposal and then there were publishers that you know offered a low bid or whatever again that's fine it got almost universally positive reviews from the mainstream critics the New York Times Washington Post etc and it was on the bestseller list for seven weeks it was number one on the non-fiction list for the first and second week so it's like I only say that by saying like whatever you think of Joe Biden, whatever you think of me, like the book was successful.

55:59Publishers rejected it. There are, I mean, I'm not going to name them, but like there were publishers rejected the book. It was a success period full stop. So like, you know, I'm probably at the top of my craft right now, or at least with the top that I'll ever achieve. And like, just for anybody out there struggling or whatever, like I get rejected every day, every day. And it doesn't matter that I've had New York Times bestsellers before or whatever, it's part of life and it sucks, but you just have to keep fighting through and beating that wave on the seventh one. I think that message is super inspiring because some would assume like, well, you just kind of can do whatever you want.

56:42Of course, everybody wanted it. Of course, you know, because we've seen the numbers it's done and the impact it has had. And another one that I've read that is wild that I recommend people reading too. But yeah, I mean, this current book, it's kind of like a movie is how I would describe it. That's how it reads. I love watching movies, but it feels like that. So I think it's really hard to make the written word feel like a movie. And this book, Race Against Terror, Chasing an Al Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Forever War, feels like a movie, like you're inside of it. It's really, really well done.

57:19I really appreciate your team sending me an early copy and for them to connect us because I really enjoyed this, Jake. Well, this was a lot of fun. I'll just give two, for any aspiring writers out there, I'll give you two bits of advice that I think I achieved in this book and the last book and maybe not in any of the previous ones. Which is, one, have a really good structure. Like that's an important part of a book is like the beginning, the middle, and the end. There's the old aphorism like act one, chase your hero up a tree. act two, throw rocks at your hero. Act three, get your hero out of the tree.

57:53That's the basic dramatic structure for everything. And so having a good structure is important. And then number two is have a good editor and be willing to kill your darlings, as they say. Faulkner, I think, said it. This editor I have for this book, Sean's Alone, he's fantastic. I would send him a chapter. I'd done the outline and I was sending him chapter by chapter. That's how we wrote it. no i'd send him chapter seven he'd be like jake you need to rewrite chapter seven it's too much like chapter four here's my idea for it and i'd be like fuck i don't want to do more work i'm doing so much work but this tell me it's good man yeah no no that wouldn't be loving you that wouldn't be showing you the love and literally i'm sitting here and i sent an outline for a project to my agent and like, I'm just waiting for him to say like, this is good.

58:44This is bad. It should be a screenplay. It should be a novel, like whatever. He might say it sucks. I mean, I don't even know, but it's something I've spent the last two months working on. And like, again, it could be nothing. He could say it's, it's awful. Like, this is all just part of the process. And then if it turns out like, eh, I don't think I can sell this or this isn't any good or blah, blah, blah, or it needs work or whatever, like I'm 56, but like, I might as well be 22. It doesn't matter. Like it's still, I'm facing rejection. And yes, things are a little easier for me now, but like, that doesn't mean like I'm not in it still the same way as I was back when it was a hundred percent rejection.

59:21Now it's only 95 % rejection. You feel, it feels like you're speeding up. Yeah. Is that accurate? Are you speeding up like right now? Like you're going harder. You're not like taking it easy and resting on your laurels and all the money and everything. You're kind of getting after it even more. Yes, that's accurate. I don't know how much longer I have this window where people are paying attention to ideas I have or thoughts I have. I like having multiple projects going. I know if there's anything I've learned from watching peers and older contemporaries, it's that relevance is ephemeral. And when it leaves, it looks fucking brutal.

1:00:04I mean, it hasn't left me yet, but it will at some point. And I just want to make sure that I'm producing as much as possible while I still can. I think it's inspiring, man. I love the idea of speeding up. I'm going to go, man. I'm going to maximize this thing. Let's get after it. Let's try to help people. Let's make an impact. Let's tell stories. Again, I think it's inspiring when you see somebody who's hit the top of the mountain and they run faster and they go harder. Maybe that's not for everybody, but it's for me, man. I love that kind of approach to this thing. And I think it's inspiring for others to see that you're speeding up at a time when maybe some would relax or would coast.

1:00:46And I appreciate that. I thank you. And I have to say your metaphor is making my bones ache. The idea of me hitting the top of a mountain and running faster sounds incredibly painful to my knees and lower back. But I know you mean it as a metaphor. So I'll take it in that spirit. This is great, man. Overall, I really appreciate this, Jake. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Absolutely. This has been so fun.

1:01:16It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Jake Tapper. A few takeaways from my notes. Be so good, they can't ignore you. As Jake said, I might not be as good looking as you are. I might not be as smart, but I am in control of how hard I work. As leaders, it is our responsibility to work so hard that we become the obvious choice for the job or the promotion. Be so good, they can't ignore you. And then the one leadership skill that is massively important to develop, do not insulate yourself with, quote, yes people.

1:02:07You have to have truth tellers in your life. Who are your foxhole friends? Who are the people that are willing and able to tell you the truth? Who are the ones who love you and care enough about you that they'll let you know when you've messed up? Those people are gold. We all need them. And then I thought his life slash career advice was really good at the end. Dr. Seuss was rejected by 47 publishers. Rejection is part of life. You have to stay in the game for a chance to win it. Keep going. and nobody, nobody will give you a job to be nice. What value do you bring to a company? How will you make your boss's life better?

1:02:57You get hired to solve a problem, not because someone wants to be nice. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Jake Tapper. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and you subscribe to the show. You rate it hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review by doing all of that. You are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful.

1:03:29Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.