666: Angie Hicks (Founder of Angie's List) - The Power of Selling Door-to-Door, Executive Presence, Being Told She Was 'Too Nice,' and Her 2-Question Career Filter That Kept Her at One Company for 30 Years

26:19But you're right. I mean, it was. It was whatever. It was three years in and I'm like, I'm going to take a break. I mean, but I joke around. I'm like, take a break. I was still keeping the books. Like, don't be fooled. So you were still doing. Now, getting into Harvard Business School is really, really hard. Was it because of the success of the business? Do you think that helped you get admitted? Yeah, I think it was that. I was unique. I was this Midwest gal applying to Harvard. I mean, I was probably late in the game and kind of deciding to go to business the school. It wasn't necessarily ever on my roadmap, but it was kind of like, maybe this is what I need.

26:55Bill gave me a little push. He'd gone to HBS. So, you know, that certainly helped. I applied there. I applied to Northwestern. Then I ran out of time because my person that was running our Cleveland office quit on me and I was having to drive from Indy to Cleveland every week to work. I was like, I can't apply anymore. So I think I have a half, I probably still somewhere have a half written application to Michigan. I got into Harvard. I did not get into Kellogg. Wow. Okay. So what are some of the most useful things you learned? Or maybe it was the people you met. I don't know. That's usually what I hear from HBS alums.

27:30But what was it from that experience that helped you be a better leader moving forward? You know, in a lot of ways, it was a time for kind of reflection and kind of understanding what I'd been through. Because if you actually rolled back and kind of thought about it, I'd like started a business, opened a bunch of markets. I made an acquisition. I was leading people. There were just like so many things that I was just like, I don't know what this is. Like, you know, I didn't, I didn't grow up with a family with a business background. My dad was a UPS driver. My mom was a bank teller. So like all of this stuff was just like, okay, I don't know what this is.

28:03It's interesting. Fine. So it was a chance to kind of step back. I think it was also a time for me. I was like humbled that I got to go to HBS. Like I'll just straight up be honest. And, you know, I was kind of that overachieving student as a young person. And I was like, you know what? Maybe this is a time I need to practice not taking life so seriously. Maybe I should just enjoy the fact that I got in. And if I don't make it out, that's okay too. Was it really hard? You know, it's just like, it was one of those where I was just like, I'm going to enjoy the learning for the learning and not like turn this into kind of a thing.

28:40Yeah. I mean, it was hard. I mean, like I was an introvert. I was probably the only one in my class. I don't know. Don't you think that we're better suited to go? I should speak myself, but I feel like a lot of people were better suited to go back to school to learn after we've lived a bit. Yeah. Like when I was in college and undergrad, I went back to my MBA too. And I think I learned, but I was working full-time. It was really tough. But in undergrad, I was a college athlete, played football. And so I didn't really care that much about school. I know it sounds bad. When I was undergrad, I was cared about playing my sport.

29:13I was on scholarship to do it. And so I'm like, this is why I'm here. Yeah, I got to go to those classes and stuff and stay eligible and try to get a three-point whatever so that my parents are happy. But for the most part, I didn't really even care that much about learning in college. But when you got a little bit more age on you and more maturity and you've seen some of the world, that's like the right time to go back and learn some more, I feel like. Yeah, it absolutely is. I think, you know, a lot of people think it's like, I just need to push through and go and kind of get all of my education.

29:43I'm like, no. I'm like, there are times I'm like, maybe I should go get some more education now. I'm like, you know, it's like, you kind of have to have a life of learning, I think. And there are different points that kind of that education and kind of what you can do with the information, Having kind of practical experiences that you can kind of relate to can make it stick and be more meaningful to you. So that kind of chance to reflect, maybe take life a little less seriously were kind of important. But it also made me kind of like I had to go battle with people that were much more outgoing and super smart.

30:20And it was based on class participation. I used to have to keep track in my head. I was like, okay, I have to go to class today. I have to speak today. Wow. You know, whereas other people are just like, I couldn't possibly not speak. I'm just so compelled. Is it? I was like, I have to speak today. Otherwise, my grades are going to be lousy. Like, I do need to speak today. So I think of Susan Cain, who's been on the show a few times. And I feel like you could be helpful here too. There are lots of introverts out there in leadership roles that probably have to battle this. And it's an uphill climb.

30:55sometimes. What are some pieces of advice you'd give to others who are also introverted, but they live in an extroverted world around a bunch of other extroverted people? And if they're not intentional, they could just kind of fade into the background. Yeah, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. Yeah. What advice would you share for them as somebody who still, it sounds like, deals with this every day? Yeah. So one, I think you have to find a way for you to be your authentic self because you can't fake it all the time. Like, yeah, there are things that I have to do. I still do things like going door to door.

31:32I'm not saying I go door to door, but like sometimes I have to give a speech and maybe that's, I don't love that. And I'm exhausted after I do something like that, but I know I, I have to do that. So making sure that I balance kind of my schedule when I do things like that to kind of be cognizant of what it does. But then also find ways to kind of be yourself. I mean, I remember one of the hardest things for me was when our company got big enough that I didn't know everyone by name. Because when you're kind of know everybody by name, you're kind of hanging out. It's really comfortable. And as introvert, it's like, this is good, right?

32:05I like, I'm like, I walked down the hall or I walked across our campus and I was like, hey, you know, so and so it's good to see you. And it was like, it was low pressure. It was like hanging out with friends. It was like being in a class that was small enough that you knew everybody that I had to figure out a new way. I had to figure out a new way because I was like, I didn't like the fact that I was disconnected. So I started doing office hours for the team and was great about that. It was it kind of met me where I was. Right. It was like they were one-on-one. Absolutely anyone in the company could sign up.

32:39I dedicated an hour a week to it, get a 15-minute slot. And it was a chance for me to have a good conversation about absolutely anything. It could be career advice. It could be what they loved or didn't like about the business. It could be you name it. And those were very valuable to me. The offer was a big cultural impact in the organization. it's just like kind of you know we talk about accessibility we talk about having an open door but there is something more about the fact we send out an email and you can sign up it's not just like stop by and see her anytime would those slots though become like ultra valuable and people would sign up immediately or like what was that like it was interesting it was kind of like one of those where it was like yes there were people that were like on it i want to go i gotta go but But then I think there was also just the fact that the offer was out, I think was also just as valuable.

33:34It's like, I could go talk to her if I wanted to. I can do it. I don't have anything I need to talk to her about today, but I know I always can. And that kind of builds the culture. So anybody in the whole, how big was the company at the time when you're doing these office hours? A couple thousand people. Jeez. So where did you come up with this idea? It was actually out of, I read it in one of Adam Bryant's books. Oh, yeah. He's been on the show. Corner office columns. Corner office columns. He had interviewed a leader who had been a professor at one point, and that's what they had done. And I was like, this is genius.

34:06I have to do this. I mean, it makes complete sense. How could you argue against doing this? I mean, I know CEOs are super busy and you're like a lot of times back to back to back to back. But who could be more important than the people who work at your company? It seems pretty obvious. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like one of those where it's like, you have to kind of think about this in kind of what time you're willing to invest. I think sometimes people think of like, is it an entire program? Is it something that's going to take X hours a week or whatever? I'm like, I gave it an hour. I did it an hour on Fridays leading into lunchtime, which let's be honest, was probably one of the squishiest times of kind of productive work.

34:42Yeah, that's smart. So, you know, it's like I was actually, you know, with a group of CEOs the other day and I actually suggest this. It's like, just try a little. Just a little. It doesn't have to be a big thing. Just try a little and see where it takes you. Did those meetings, would they ever turn into people kind of trying to promote themselves so they could get promoted? Or were they asking questions? What were the meetings like? Oh, it was anything. It was anything. It was literally like it was career advice. What should I do? I'd love to do this thing. They might have ideas for the business.

35:15Like, hey, we should go into this line. or we thought about this idea. I remember talking one day to our head of legal and I was like, you know, I don't get open door kind of meeting requests anymore. And she kind of chuckled and she's like, that's because you have them all the time. You allow problems to come to you before they're big problems. So they become less of a thing. And I was like, oh, all right. Well, that makes sense. But it's like, you know, it's just like, you know, cause things, I'd rather people, and I say this, I'm like, I'd rather people bring their concerns internally first and like listen to them and address them when you can, because they always come internally first, whether it's from an employee, whether it's from a customer, whether it's from anything.

35:56And it's just how we kind of handle those things as to whether they blow up into something bigger and you name it. They just talked about whatever. And I always tried to give them something in return. What do you mean? So they come to talk to me and I'm like, whether, you know, I'd like, I'd introduce them to someone that would help. I'd open a door for them. Wow. Wow. Okay. That seems to be an implementable idea for all leaders, whether you're the CEO or not, is have office hours, have those meetings with anybody who wants to talk to you that works at your company. I'm curious, Angie, if you were...

36:29You probably get these requests all the time, but let's say you're going to go back to HBS and you're going to teach a class. And they say, Angie, the only umbrella, the only high-level thing that the class has to be around is leadership. Anything under that word, you can make up whatever you want. I'm curious, what would be your class? What would you want to teach? What would be a part of the syllabus if you were hired at HBS to teach something about leadership? Yeah. I mean, to this day, I still love talking to customers. I think we live in a very digital age, and I feel like we don't talk to one another very much.

37:07People like people. They need to feel kind of heard and kind of things resolved. I mean, so I took that office hours idea. Now I do it with customers. So any pro can sign up and talk to me. Same deal, you know, like talk about whatever you want. Gives me a chance to kind of understand, get a pulse on what's going on. Dedicate about the same amount of time to it right now. But it would probably be about how you can get closer to the people that are your customers and the people that impact your customers the most. I do think that understanding that customer care rep or the people kind of on the front line, you know, they're the ones that are making your brand.

37:49I mean, the marketing team might make some great social posts and some great TV ads and things like that. But many times kind of the people that are manning the phones or your chats or things like that are the ones that are leaving more lasting impression on your brand than anything else. And how do you bring kind of the voice of the customer into the organization? That's important. I mean, like in our particular business, I mean, we are home improvement. Not everybody in our company is a homeowner. How do you make sure they can kind of understand the customer and kind of what life is like as a small business owner, as a pro?

38:29What's it like for a homeowner when something goes awry on their worst day? and how do they think through that problem set? And so how do I bring those stories to life? I love that. It reminds me of Kat Cole, another amazing leader. She's the CEO of Athletic Greens, and she's had various roles. And she said, you got to speak with the people constantly who don't necessarily have the power to make the change, but they have the knowledge because they're on the front lines. You have to have open lines of communication with them at all times when you're the CEO. I'm like, that is so good. It was also like General Stanley McChrystal, who's a four-star general, who said, you still got to go out on the front lines.

39:09It's dangerous. Do what you got to do. But if you're just sitting in the meeting room or in the corner office and do the occasional Zoom meeting, that doesn't work. You got to go out and talk to them and get the feedback and listen to them and understand what's actually happening as opposed to trying to make decisions by committees in a corner office. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it was something that I was early on, I was like, I had to convince myself that it was a good use of time. And I think that is something that kind of busy people that are, have lots of responsibility and are kind of active doers, overachievers to kind of sit back and talk and listen feels like, okay, am I moving the needle?

39:56It feels a bit too squishy. So that's why I would treat it just like some of the other things. I'm like, I will give it an hour a week. Let's do an hour. Let's see what happens there. And I could see kind of the payoff. It's not that I went and said, I'm going to go spend 30 % of my time doing this now. I can't do that. But there is an element. There is a portion of time that I do dedicate. Okay. Feedback, both from customers, employees. Sometimes people don't actually know what they want, whether I think of Henry Ford or Steve Jobs or others. They would have never built a car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

40:33So how do you know how to manage the feedback? How do you know what to take and what to implement? And they're like, you know what? I don't know if they actually know what they want. They think they do, but they might not. And I feel like you'd be an expert at this because you've regularly gotten feedback for 30 years or so. How do you manage through what they say versus what you actually should be doing and what you have to kind of translate to what they would want. Yeah. And that was the point I was going to bring up. Cause I think sometimes you can kind of take this to the extreme of like, this is just going to develop my product roadmap.

41:06It's not, but it is going to help to inform. It's interesting. It's like when I rolled out chatting with pros, for example, you know, I would hear things and I was like, okay, I hear you. Let me kind of take that back. And as I, as we, we kind of took the concern and didn't let them prescribe the product. right? And you kind of take that and you're like, hey, here is a friction point. How do we improve a friction point? And over time, it was interesting because we got really good at taking this feedback and not rewriting the product roadmap, but kind of like making sure that as we improved our experience, we were thinking about those issues.

41:46And you could feel it. I could feel it come back in the conversations. I was like, I used to have conversations when they would have, you know, bring this up 75 % of the time. And I was like, I didn't necessarily have a clear roadmap of what I was saying, like, here's what's coming that's going to help alleviate that to now I have a roadmap. So I can kind of like, yep, I hear you. Here's where we're headed on this topic to like, then things just stop coming up, right? Because, you know, they addressed it. So I think it's a way to stay informed. But yeah, you can't re realign the team every time you hear a new piece of feedback, you've got to work it into kind of your longer term plan.

42:24Yeah, it's hard. I know this is growing up with somebody who it was beaten into me to be a coachable player as an athlete, be coachable, be coachable, listen to your coaches, listen to your teachers. So sometimes you can actually become a little bit too coachable or listen to too much feedback and it can steer you like, dude, you got to have an identity and you got to go as opposed to just changing every day based upon random feedback. That can be tough though, right? That's a tough balance. Right. Right. And I think part of it is also just being honest and listening to a conversation, but also being like, I can do something with that.

42:57I can't do something with that. Yeah. Yeah. Having an honest conversation where it doesn't feel like there's spin in it. And, you know, that authenticity kind of helps to play that. And it can be reasonable. Right. And, you know, the person you're talking to like, okay, I understand why this is not on the short term map, but this one over here is. Gotcha. I think there is that part of it, too. I'm also really curious about partnerships in general and founders or co-founders. And you mentioned Bill a little bit, but sometimes you read about stories where these things just go really bad. They fight, somebody has to quit or buy them out or they fade away or whatever.

43:35I'm curious from your story, what's the key to a good partnership? I mean, I think this could apply beyond just starting a business, but I am curious, what have you learned over the years that has been the key to a good partnership? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, part of it is finding someone that you have confidence in and you believe in. And I think that's one thing that we kind of found in each other, right? Because I think you have to be able to be able to share and have contentment in kind of like, I've got this, you've got this. I think if you're kind of constantly having the rub where you're like, I should be in charge of that, I should be in charge of that, then I think you kind of struggle in that.

44:18I mean, that was one thing that we did a nice job on. I mean, you know, and part of it, I mean, I was a good amount younger than Bill when we started. So he was a bit of a mentor to me, right, in this whole process. So there was kind of like, hey, let me guide you up here and then let's carve out this area. So there was an element of him being a fan as well, right? Of like, hey, you can do this. You've got this in the process. And, you know, as the company grew, always being able to kind of talk frankly with one another and leave emotion at the door, right? It's kind of like, hey, this is working or this isn't working is an important element.

44:58You eventually merged with HomeAdvisor, correct? Yep. What was that like for you? Was there an identity shift or like, what was that like for you? Yeah. So, you know, that happened, what, eight years ago, nine years ago. When we first brought the business together, they kind of operated pretty independently. But HomeAdvisor was the brand that was being invested behind at the time. So that was kind of a bit of a shift in exposure. But then as we came along, I mean, one of the main thesis of kind of bringing those two businesses together was like the Angie's List brand. You combine that with the HomeAdvisor matching engine and how they were, from a technological standpoint, advancing beyond where Angie's List was, was interesting.

45:43And so in 2021, we actually brought the businesses closer together, flipped the name to Angie from Angie's List and ran everything, you know, kind of built that up as the main brand. And today, we've also been working together to bring even our products, our pro products together and things like that. We're kind of coming to the point where the business is much simpler as far as from a kind of customer offering, which I think is great. And driving behind one brand, which simplifies, makes it easier, makes it relatable. And I think it's an easier story to tell. So I think it's a good spot. So Angie, but take out the E.

46:21Like what happened with this name change? Yeah, so you got the E. So if we roll back to 2011, when we were getting ready to go public, you have to have either a three or four letter ticker. Oh. Right, right, right, right. So I was sitting around one day. I was like, well, we could call it list. I'm like, it's kind of generic. We could call it Angie. But then I got to re-spell it, which, you know, I don't like that. then it was like I could make the ticker Bill in honor of Bill, but then that's just kind of odd and people would maybe not enjoy it. We would find it very funny. People might not enjoy that from a branding perspective.

46:59So ended up going with Angie with an I. And so that kind of got a bit of a life of its own. And then fast forward a few years, even before the merger, and I was contemplating dropping the list at one point because I was like, I think we're bigger. Maybe We were Angie's, right? We could be Angie's List. We had a big deal. It was Angie's Big Deal. It could be Angie's whatever. And then in 2021, it was like, hey, let's just make it Angie. And, you know, an Angie with an I is an easier and more identifiable, unique thing than Angie with an E. So we poke a little fun at it now. So it's like I'm Angie with an E.

47:37The company is Angie with an I. I get notes from people that I've known my entire life that now just spell my name with an I. Yeah, I got you. So I am curious about actually hiring leaders. I think this could be very useful. When you are in a position and when you have been in positions to hire someone, whether it's a promotion or hiring from outside for a leadership role. I mean, being able to do whatever the specific task is, those are table stakes. But I'm talking about attributes of a person. What are some of those must-have attributes for Angie to say, yep, I want you to be a part of my leadership team?

48:15Yeah, I think it's got to be someone... Subject matter expertise is always important. So I always... I'm like, you got to know what you're talking about. Because I think about it as like, hey, if you have to be that general that needs to go out on the front line, I want to know that you can go out on the front line. Yep. Because I think that speaks volumes for your team. so kind of knowing your stuff is super important but also kind of understanding that your team is going to make you smarter you know so you don't want this person that is like I know I'm the one that always knows the answer you know having someone that can kind of learn from their team and understand you know I'm like I spent most of my career running marketing and marketing moves fast some of the youngest members of the team are kind of teaching are teaching me more things in the over the years than some of the more seasoned marketing people.

49:06So kind of how are you, how are you constantly having kind of a view about learning and staying kind of smart in the trade? And then ability to just be a good partner, work with people. That is important. Your job's not to come in and knock down walls. It's actually to build relationships because you can't do everything yourself. So how are you at building cross department relationships? Yeah, I think that's super helpful. Let's say you went back again to be a guest lecturer and you're meeting with people who are recent grads and they want to leave a positive dent in the world like you're doing.

49:44What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to them? I would suggest that they... One of my favorites, take your work very seriously. be good at what you do. Don't always be looking for kind of that next thing that you got to go tackle. Do what's on front of you first. Don't take yourself too seriously. I think especially, you know, you kind of come out, you're like, oh, I have all of these credentials. I should therefore be able to do these things. It's like sometimes, sometimes the envelopes need stuffed. And we might all do that together. So don't take yourself too seriously.

50:21We're going to do this together. And then be open to feedback and to helping others. And don't be afraid when people suggest things that seem totally counter. I think sometimes we get too rigid in our plans. I use the Angie's list as an example, right? I was supposed to be a consultant. I was supposed to go be a business consultant, but then Bill comes in and says, hey, what about this? I could have easily been a business consultant and had a nice life, but I chose that door. I think a lot of times people get a little too narrow in their focus and miss opportunities. So, you know, stay open to that.

50:58And then for me, it's all about the people you work with. So if you, you know, working with people that you're learning from that believe in you, that's all that matters. I over-index there. So if you find that you're not, because people ask me this question, it's like, how are you still doing this after 30 years? I'm like, I ask myself two questions. And if I can answer yes to those two questions, I'm in. If I answer no, I'm out. And the two things are, do I like the people I'm working with? And am I learning new things? And when you're as long in your career as I am, you know, like you have to dedicate time and effort to learning new things so that you don't become that person that is like, we do this because we've always done it this way, which I think is just like the worst line ever.

51:46I love those questions. What's next for you? For me, I love home improvement. I'm like, I told my husband the other day. Do you go out and like fix stuff yourself or no? You hire somebody from Angie. I'm like, I did do some painting the other day myself, but no, I don't often fix things up myself. But I'm like, we're not going to do any like fancy new projects this year. We're just going to do what needs to be done. And, you know, I couldn't help myself. I redid the floor in my basement because um you did it or you hired somebody from someone I like hired someone but I was like I needed a space that when my kids came home from college with their dogs that it was just like a free zone for everybody in the family and like best investment ever but totally I was like I've become that person I'm doing things for the dogs and somebody clarified you're doing things for the grand dogs actually amazing I love it I love it I just gotta I think you've come across as so genuine and competent and likable from before we even started recording.

52:47It's really, really cool. It's so easy to root for someone like you to keep crushing it. So thank you so much for doing this. Where would you send my viewers, listeners to learn more about you online? You can go to angi.com. A-N-G-I dot com. Man, how much did it cost to get that? Well, that's why you dropped the E. But still, it's four letters, a four-letter URL. Man, you guys have done well enough to invest in that. That's really good. Angie, no, I love this. I really, really appreciate it. And I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. That's great. I would love it.

53:26It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note. Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Angie Hicks. A few takeaways from my notes. Lead by listening and showing up, whether it's knocking on doors as a 23-year-old or meeting employees during office hours as CEO. Angie is a great reminder for all of us that being present, paying attention, and seeking feedback is one of the most critical aspects of being an effective leader. And then focus on people and learning. Angie's career filter.

54:07Very simple. Do I like the people I'm working with? Am I learning new things? If yes, keep going. If not, it's time to reconsider excellence. It's not just about the results. It's about the environment and the growth all around you. And then I love this. Take your work seriously, but not yourself. Confidence, humility, and authenticity go hand in hand. Angie shows us that you can be very ambitious and really driven without losing sight of the human side of leadership. I found her to be so likable and competent and kind and curious both on air and off. She was really, really great and I hope you enjoyed this one.

54:46I want to say thank you once again for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Angie Hicks. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and rate it hopefully five stars and write a thoughtful review doing all of that helps me continue to do what I love on a daily basis and for that I will forever be grateful thank you so so much talking soon can't wait