670: Mike Deegan - Building a Championship Culture, Mudita (Joy for Others), Systems Thinking, Curiosity = Love, Getting Out of a Slump, and The DNA of Great Teams

24:07You know what I mean? So I was like, we can put some of this together. And then I think it's amazing when you can just put boundaries and guardrails and, and point people in the right direction. It's amazing what can happen. So we just provide a little structure, a little discipline. I'll never minimize my time at Marietta because it gives you a glimpse at what baseball is played at, at the highest level of division three baseball. It gives you, I didn't need to dream it. I actually knew in my mind what it looks like. So I think just putting some discipline around some decent talent, a lot of staff, some success right away.

24:36I told you before that I was recently asked to give a speech and I rarely have the company that hires me to speak, tell me what to talk about. This company, I did two talks for them. So one was kind of the one I usually do, which is around personal excellence and habits, routines, rituals of high performers of 11 years of these conversations I've had. But then they're like, can you do another one with our entire company? And we want you to title it the DNA of great teams. I initially said, no, that's not what I do. But then I rethought. I thought, you know what? Why not? Why not have something I'm super uncomfortable?

25:16I build it from scratch, right? Something I had never done before. And the process of building that talk and then delivering it, which I did last week, was so cool. I mean, it was an amazing learning experience for me. Can you tell me a few things you landed on there? Or I don't want... Can you tell me a couple of books? You know, one of the big stories that I learned about, Do you know those Chilean miners, the 33 guys who got stuck way, way down? I was trying to research excellent teams that were outside of sports because I'm a sports guy. And I know sometimes not everybody in the audience wants to hear about sports all the time.

25:52So that story, how they quickly found roles, how they stuck together. They had enough food for two days and they rationed it out and they all ate together. They had certain areas down there that they did things together. Again, they had a spiritual leader. They had a medical guy. They had a guy to keep them on task. Like they had specific times they slept, specific times they ate all together. Then they would bathe. Like all these things, you're like, wait, I thought these guys were just stuck way, way down there. But the story of the Chilean miners, when they got stuck and how the leader too, Mike, you'd love this.

26:26And this would be you, the leader, the guy in charge of everybody. once they were able to get the people out, he said, I'm going last of the 33. I'm going last. And so he waited a full 23 hours watching one guy go at a time. And then he eventually was the last guy out because that's what leaders do, right? You take care of your people. And so there are some amazing stories out there. And I appreciate you being a curious guy like you always have been since I've now met you recently. But I want to hear from you if you were writing that speech. I know I'm just pushing this on you. The DNA of great teams, what are like some of the high-level bullet points of the DNA of great teams, whether it's baseball or not?

27:08What do you think are some of those high-level bullet points? I'm going to steal a little bit of your story and just kind of build off of a touch because what I heard, and I think this is how I would answer it. You mentioned right away roles. Like, so great teams are going to have, everyone has a role and to beat objective expectations. Like, so when good meets good, like that's what, that's what I love about like playoff baseball or playoff football, like eventually good meets good. You have got to understand that every role is essential to the cost. So you think about that example, there's medical people, there's someone who's, who's digging a hole, whatever, like it doesn't matter.

27:44Status goes away, quarterback or the left tackle, Like everyone has a role, they're valued. And if we don't perform those roles at a championship level or world-class level, we're in trouble. So roles. Secondly, I heard you mention was together, like the sacrifice. I think there has to be a bit of like, we're in this together. So when you're down in the hole like that, like there's no prima donna, like this stinks for everybody. And I think that's what happens with championship teams. Like what's that saying? You can have anything you want in life, but you can't have everything you want. Yeah.

28:15For us to compete on a national level, our guys do miss out on a lot. And I tell this to parents, like grades may suffer. Everyone wants to say, oh, student athletes are better. Like, no, no, no. I mean, let's be completely unhonest. If we, you have a test on Monday. Yeah. Like there's trade-offs with this thing. So a sacrifice is going to be a part of that. Then I hear discipline. Like, you know, they showered at certain times. Like, I think discipline and consistency is a superpower. And I think the sooner you can get that in life, the better. There may be something, maybe not so much with young kids, But the people that I see that really excel in the professional baseball world, they seem to have a maturity about them at a much younger age.

28:50And that comes with discipline and consistency as well. And then the last thing you mentioned is, as I would say, like leadership. There's going to be someone that's navigating the ship, that's kind of keeping everything moving in the right direction. In my beautiful world, it would be like where that person is not an egomaniac. They're not in front. They're just waiting for everyone to get out. That's what I would say. That's you, though. Right? I mean, yeah, I think you would. I think people would echo that too. I think my behaviors echo that. And the last thing I would say, Ryan, that I'm done, I'll get off.

29:20It is there's a joy. And I don't know if there was joy in that rugged environment, but I do think that people tend to enjoy what they're doing. They do with a smile on their face. I always say, don't hire for when you think times are good. Hire for the person you want to be around when times are bad because they're coming. Right. There's inevitable. It's like any relationship, a marriage, anything. Right. that's when it really gets real. I mean, I say everyone can be the team captain when it's 40 to nothing at halftime. You're eating oranges in a football team. It's super easy. We're all, let's go, guys.

29:50You know, what's hard is when you're getting punched in the face, right? You're in a slump. Like baseball, you have slumps, right? Like, oh, it's brutal. I got to imagine, like, that's when great teams, they rally. Like, I coach my daughter's flag football team. One of my favorite things, Mike, my favorite things. There's two of them. One, let's say a girl messes up. She throws an interception. She misses a flag, whatever. To see her teammates, that's the thing I'm most proud of, to see her teammates rally around her. It's all good. We got you. You know, like all the things they say. These girls are 11, right?

30:22To see them rally. The second thing that brings me so much joy, right? Like it makes me emotional, honestly, thinking about this, is to see how genuinely excited they are when something good, like their teammate scores a touchdown, gets an interception. to see the genuine joy and enthusiasm. There's no envy there. They are so happy and pumped up. That's the beauty of sports, man. Like that's the beauty of seeing good teams pick each other up when it's really, really hard and be genuinely excited and pumped for them when it goes well. It's like, oh, it's just the best, man. I could go on forever.

31:02It's just the best. It's kind of why we do what we do in those moments, right? That's what it's all about. And I think the next layer to that, maybe put this for an arrow in your quiver for later, how they talk to their teammates, you can remind them that's how they should talk to themselves. Because, you know, whenever we struggle, we tend to, God, I'm the worst. Why did I make that throw? You're an idiot. And you wouldn't talk to your best friend that way, right? So, I don't know. I had that conversation with one of our, I shouldn't have favorites, but a kid that I really admire on our team.

31:27I said, hey, man, like, I never hear you talk to your teammates like you talk to yourself. Like, give yourself some grace. You mean he's super hard on himself? Yeah, super hard on him. Yeah, just kind of always. Is that being really hard on yourself, though, part of what makes you great? I do, but I think it can also be a cop-out because there's ways to channel that. Like, I don't, yeah, I think sometimes people say I'm a perfectionist or that's just like who I am. Like, ah, come on, man. Like a perfectionist, to me, they put in an insane amount of work to earn the right to be. I think we use that term pretty lightly sometimes.

31:58So let's say, again, baseball's got slumps. A good hitter, for whatever reason, is just not getting any hits. It's like sometimes there's a little luck involved and sometimes you just don't know why it's happening or there's little things. How do you help a hitter get out of a slump? Man, if I, if I can answer that in accurately, I would be making a lot of money. There's a reason for the word process and routines. There's probably not a more routine process driven sport than baseball. It's really the work that the professional hitters do between one and six. That really matters the most. And then seven o 'clock, you got to just go play.

32:34So the idea there is, I heard Christian McCaffrey just saying this, like, is it football? You're built on one week. Like, it's just one week. Then you forget the game plan. You forget everything else. So really just routines, processes, reminding them what makes them special and what makes them great. I think that's something we can get away from sometimes. And then also it's just to understand this is a part of it and you're not immune to it. But I wish I had a great answer other than that's why routines and process is so important. One of the things that we talk about with the people we work with is this idea of strong voice, weak voice.

33:07And you just hinted at it with that. And so we share these videos of people using their weak voice. And there's some funny ones out there that are fun TV shows of people just conjuring up all of these stories they're telling themselves that aren't even true. That's their weak voice. and then there's this amazing clip and I could share it with people, but it's, I don't know, 15 seconds. It's Aaron Donald. Maybe you've seen this. Aaron Donald, I believe it was when they were playing in the Super Bowl and it's pregame or right before the game's going to start or even in between series, I'm not sure.

33:38But you hear him just go, all that work you did. Come on, A. Come on, A. Go be the best in the world. Come on. And it's just this incredible self-talk that he's saying, he's talking about his preparation. he's talking about how he's so ready to go come on to me I feel like that works well beyond sports when you're focused on your process you focus on your preparation you focus on why you're ready for this moment and then you go out and you just dominate and I think that's got to apply to your world too is this idea of having good strong voice positive self-talk especially maybe when you're going through a slump or it's hard this conversation had to happen So our guys that'll listen to this, I'll share it out.

34:22And our players, we talk about strong voice, weak voice quite a bit. Do you really? That exact phrase? Exact word. Sue Inquist was the softball coach at UCLA is where I first heard it. Who? Sue Inquist is her name. She's retired, but that's where I first heard it was strong voice, weak voice. And we say it all the time. And I try to acknowledge that we all have weak voice. That's like my spin on it. Like it's like we all do. and then the other thing I want to add Ryan because another example of it was Mookie Betts I heard Mookie Betts shortstop for the Dodgers he was talking about it in the press box one time on an interview and I'll send it to you but he said I just had to give myself a lot of grace like after a mistake I'm telling myself like you're okay Mookie you're okay like anyways why I'm sharing this is like this is a World Series shortstop you know what I mean like you think they're the alpha the alpha and he is going through it he has to give himself like some self-passion in these big moments because another ground ball is coming your way, but you got to talk yourself through this.

35:18So anyways, it's a pretty vulnerable take by him. Yeah, I feel like I remember seeing that video around the World Series this year. And he struggled this World Series, by the way. He struggled, but then he finishes out with a double play. It was not easy for him. I don't know Mookie Betts at all, but I can just tell you from what I'm just observing, it was not easy for him, but he still showed up and made big plays when he had to. I'm curious of how you handle this. So I still have that kind of before the say before a big keynote, this is recent because I just had a couple of these. I think I'm only nervous if I'm not prepared, but I still have that kind of anticipatory feeling like I did before a game as they're getting ready to introduce me to go up, especially for it doesn't really matter the crowd size, big, small, anything in between.

36:00But one of the things I like to say, my strong voice is I think confidence is built through evidence, like creating evidence for yourself that you've done tough things in your past. And you can draw from those experiences when maybe you're a little nervous or scared. So one of the things I like to say right as they're introducing me is, man, what an opportunity to create some evidence. I'm going to go create some evidence today. It makes me feel good. It makes me feel like I'm juiced up. I'm bringing good enthusiasm, good energy when I say, what an opportunity to create some evidence today. So like these little things we all create, we all need this stuff.

36:40I don't know. I'd be curious, like how you think about it and what you do both for yourself as well as for the guys that you lead. Well, you know, I appreciate that because I think one of the most unspoken things about coaching is it is a bit of a performance. And I don't mean that you'd need to be anything by yourself, but you have to get yourself in the right frame of mind. And I went to, I always laugh about this, but I went to an Anthony Robbins event 2015 and it really changed my life like it was you could take that whatever way you want but i liked i liked when i had him on the show hey anyone who gets that big is gonna have haters and i understand why but i'm with you man i probably said some things but there's probably envy in those statements you know yeah it's like but he would talk about making a move and like giving yourself like a bit of a mantra and yeah before i speak you know i'll do the same thing i'll you know make a move i'll i'll give myself a strong thought and then go perform but with a coach how you show up is going to be really really important and i saw it was texas a &m's coach football coach this year did you see every said you have to be the opposite of what the moment requires like so like um is that yeah yeah i wish that's not the right way he said it but it's it's basically like while everyone's excited you need to be the calm and then when when the proverbial is hitting the fan you got to be the one with optimism you know so i don't think you get in those spaces, those are earned evidence-based things to be able to do that.

38:00And they don't just happen. Like you have to have some intentionality in that. So I think getting yourself in the right mental frame to handle high performance is required of a coach and a leader. As a quarterback, you have to be super poised and calm and have moxie. You live in a chaotic world. You have to stand in a pocket where there are guys trying to kill you. And you have to be able to look, not see them, by the way, feel them, know they're there, but then be able to make the shot down the field. You can't look at them. If you look at them or you think about them, you won't be able to make an accurate throw.

38:34So your world is always chaotic, like every single play, I guess, unless you're handing the ball off. But other than that, it's a very chaotic world. And so it helps you be very trained to be poised and calm in chaos. And I think that's why you see a lot of quarterbacks go on to do amazing things, whether they're coaches or they do other things in the world. It's got to be similar in your world where baseball's a little bit more on the outside, it appears, laid back. But you're managing 25-plus personalities at all times, and you can't lose your mind ever, right? You have to be the calm voice who can help them, to lift them up, to pick them up, to celebrate them, right?

39:18How do you view trying to be that calming presence for your people? I love your quarterback analogy. Every time I go to a game, I go, how's anyone ever complete a pass? You're sitting up high and you just see like the wave of humanity coming and nobody's open and then you have to just, yeah. But I think that same thing, and like, you know, I'll be a little redundant, but I do think it takes some preparation in advance to remind yourself to be in that space. I think early on in my career, we struggled in bigger games. and I don't believe this is just like a head coaching thing, by the way. The more, you know, someone had mentioned, you know, New England's record this year and, you know, Braves is the one that you can kind of look to, but a lot goes into winning besides just the coach, right?

40:00Like a lot goes into it. I had to do some reflection and say, why weren't we playing our best in some of these higher leverage games? And there's a lot of answers to that, by the way, a lot of things from how we train, our talent wasn't quite probably at the level that we were trying to play against, but I had to look in the mirror and say, what am I doing? Am I showing up different? I think, you know, I wanted it so bad, too, for other people and myself. Ego was involved that I don't think I was probably showing up my best in those big games. But it takes some reps. It takes creating evidence to know that you can go through it.

40:29But I also just remind myself in baseball, you know, you don't play baseball at 130 heartbeat. It's more, can you get that darn thing down? And anything I do to increase it myself, I'm going against what it takes to be a successful player. I got to take batting practice with my brother at a Milwaukee Brewers game. This is back years ago. And they just put us in a group. I don't know. This is how the pros, they just do like groups. Greg Maddox's brother, Mike, was the pitcher. And I think Tony Gwynn's son was one of the guys in our group. And another big, tall outfielder, God, I forget his name, was in our group.

41:06But one of the things I had said to the guy, you know, they gave us the uniform and everything, right? one of the things I had said to the guy was, you guys seem so chill. Pre-game football is nuts. You know, it's crazy. And he goes, hey, man, you got 162 of these things. He's like, you can't be crazy. And I go, yeah, that's a good point. That's a really good point of just the fact that you got to understand how to manage your energy when you got to perform all the time. Without a doubt. It's one of my favorite lines, especially if you have friends in professional baseball, You can't, like, text them after every game and say, good job.

41:39Because I know someone who was like, hey, man, there's 162 of these. Like, please stop. Like, you know, it's going to be a long summer. But the other thing I love about baseball, people can think it's boring. But what you're seeing is you're seeing people try to stay calm for three hours. Because, I don't know, like, throwing the ball across, like, simple as that. Like, throwing the ball across the infield if you're tense and tight is not good. Right? So you're watching that 18 seconds in between the pitches of them just trying to get away from the pressure of everything. So you see them spit.

42:08You see them kick dirt. Those are all learned behaviors to try to get themselves down. So in football, you've got to be prepared to throw your body into somebody. And it takes an insane intensity. But in baseball, it's just the opposite. You're trying to, how can I stay cool in this moment? Yeah. I'm wondering how do you think that would help somebody who doesn't play baseball or doesn't play sports, even though they're in the business world. And this kind of idea of trying to stay calm and alert and ready and present, but not go overboard. Is that more of like, Hey, you got to have a process.

42:45What do you think for someone who doesn't play sports? Yeah, process routines. And I say it's just like basic stoicism, right? Like baseball is like the ultimate controlling what you can control and releasing what you can't, right? So, yeah, I don't know if this next ball is coming to me, but what do I do now? I can control my breathing. I can control my first pitch prep step. You know, so I would tell anyone who's listening, it's more like what can you control? And I would challenge you to think does that intensity or that emotion, does it actually lead to results or not? Yeah. Baseball coaches do it too.

43:15like if I'm more intense if I give high fives more I don't know like is that actually driving results if it's helping you be the best version of yourself go ahead and do it but I don't know I think sometimes that overstimulation that over emotion it's probably just put a lot of anxiety on your people you know in the sales force or whatever so yeah just regulate stay calm and execute do you go out and have conversations with your pitcher when they're struggling or is that the pitching coach and then you only come out to take him out of the game yes he's our pitching coach, I'll go out every now and then.

43:43I'll go out a lot of times if it's maybe a situation where I think we need some calming. Yeah, I was going to say, so what is this? Usually the whole infield comes in now. It used to be just the manager and the pitcher, but now it's the whole infield. What does it sound like in one of those huddles? I think a good analogy is like a corner man in boxing. My dad used to always say, who's a good coach? Watch a corner man in boxing. Because some people, you've got to smack. You've got to get him going. Some people have to say, come on, champ. You're the best. You're the best. You're the best. So I think when you're walking out there, you're trying to think what does the team need from me right now?

44:13What message, if I'm a mirror, like what do they need to see? Do they need to see calm? They need to see reassurance. Are we playing a little timid and scared? And maybe you're trying to jolt them a little bit with some energy and some choice words. Like I'm not saying I'm immune. I'm not immune to that too. But once again, there's an intentionality to it. And I think when I first started doing it, you just go out there, you're ticked off. You're going to go, you know, whatever. But now you're like, okay, what does this pitcher need? What does this group need? How can I best serve them? And then like a good corner man, then you point him in the right direction of what's next.

44:42Right. So we're going to go ahead and we're going to get ahead of this hitter right here. A few little ground balls coming. So you're trying to speak some stuff into existence, even if you're making stuff up. But yeah, you acknowledge it. And then you also try to point them in a direction for improvement. Maybe this is top of mind. We had a game yesterday, a very close, tough loss, which again, I think is great for kids to go through because that's life. But anyway, you know, we give up a big play and people are kind of, you know, the kids are losing a little bit. It's like, listen, that play is over.

45:12We have control of this play. That's right. This play. We do everything we can to do each of our jobs as a team, individual and as a team to stop them on this two-point conversion, right? And I think just like being very specific of that play is over and we'll learn from that play later. Not right now, though, because we're in the moment. Now our focus is on right now, this play, that's within our control. And I think that lesson could apply throughout life. That stuff's over. We will take time to try to learn from whatever happened. But for now, we have this right in front of us. Let's give maximum focus and effort to this thing, right?

45:54And I think that's the difference probably between average to good teams to great teams. The great ones, again, in life and in sports, they are good at that, right? They can respond like Mookie Betts you're talking about, right? He wasn't playing well, but he responded well to it, and that ultimately helped his team win. It's how you choose to respond to the tough moments. It's really thinking about those specific times in your life and specific times with your team. I think that's the greatest gift that we can give people through sports. Life just throws haymakers at you all the time. It just does.

46:28Most of us experience adversity along the way. It's this unique ability to just kind of keep moving. right and also like you said you reflect you try to get better you give yourself some grace you move on you just kind of keep working through that process as simple as it may sound to us ryan i don't think many people can get there you know and i think that's where the sports background comes in is that we have some reps with that yes that's why i love athletics especially for kids i know not everyone is athletic enough to make all the teams but i still try to encourage people as much as possible because it's so hard, especially when the parents have done well and can provide and maybe they've done better than their parents.

47:09And so it's one way in life to create some legitimate adversity. I've said this a million times, but one of my daughters who plays a lot of volleyball just finished her senior season. Even when they win a match, you got to win three sets at least. But some of those sets they'd win, they would win 25 to 23. That means they had to respond to losing 23 times in the course of one set that they happened to win. And then maybe they lose a set and they got to respond to that too. So I just think this idea, this ability to bounce back from losing, to bounce back from the adversity that we all are going to inevitably face, it's one of the few constants and certainties of life is adversity is the difference between great and average or good.

47:57Trevor Moad, you know that name at all? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love his line and I have it written down. I write down on my lineup card. Setbacks are temporary. I bounce back quickly. Setbacks are temporary. I bounce back quickly. I bounce back quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so I like that. It's just like you're simple, you know, you're go create evidence. Like it's something very simple, but like, I'm going to take a punch and I'll bounce back quickly. Like I I'll bounce back. I'll bounce back. I think those are just good reminders in life. This happens. We're going to respond. I am so pumped to see what you choose to do and the impact you make, man.

48:29I know the one thing's for certain is that we're going to keep talking. I'm glad at least you're close by, but I can't wait for the next dinner with you, man. I can't thank you enough, Ryan. It was truly a pleasure to get to meet you and your network and have this time too. It's fun to see what happens when you get a group of high character, put a dent in the world type people together and just with everyone's genuine curiosity and excitement and smiles and head nods. God, we should do this more often. That's what life is all about, isn't it? Building good relationships with great people. I think that's what life's all about, man.

49:00So you're definitely one of those dudes for me now. I'm super grateful, man. I can't wait for the next one. Appreciate you, bro. Thanks, Ryan.

49:10It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Mike Deegan. A few takeaways from my notes. Get comfortable in your own skin. When you are secure, you can celebrate others without envy. That's when Mudita, vicarious joy, a joy for others, right? That's when it becomes possible. Be genuinely happy when your teammate succeeds. It's so fun when you can get to that place. And then know your North Star. Mike's is clear. at Denison. Compete for national championships while providing an elite student-athlete experience.

49:53What is yours? Everything you should do should align with it, including, and most importantly, who you choose to work with. And then I love Mike's mantra that he shared at the end. Setbacks are temporary. I bounce back quickly. Life is going to throw haymakers at you. Your job is to be the calming presence as a leader. Confidence that needs evidence. So how about we go create some. The process and routine, as he said, between one and six, right? One o 'clock and six o 'clock that's leading up to the games. That's what shows up when the lights are brightest. And as leaders, we have to be prepared for those big moments to make a difference.

50:31Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling your friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Mike Deegan. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and write a thoughtful review and certainly subscribe to the show, rate it, hopefully five stars. By doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon.

51:03Can't wait.