675: Tom Hardin (Tipper X) - The Largest Insider Trading Case, How Ambiguous Leadership Destroys Culture, Resume vs. Eulogy Virtues, Bad Decisions vs. Mistakes, and Building Psychological Safety

24:15I didn't try to tell lies or white lies. I just said, I did it. And she said, can you say it again? And I said it again. And she said, you didn't do anything to hurt me. Ryan, 85 % of marriages, I found this stat when I was researching. And more or less right there, because she had every right to leave. Say, I don't know who you are. We just got married. We didn't have kids. You know, it would have been easier just to hoist the sales and say, you're going to be tip her ex, not the future hedge fund manager. No, thanks. It wasn't easy, but she was able to accept it as best as she could that day, which I think really, I don't even want to think about if I was kicked out, what kind of spiral I would have been into.

24:49So I was very lucky that she accepted it. Oh man, what did that mean to you? What does it currently mean to you to have that rock there, especially when you're going through the toughest thing of your life? Yeah, it's, you know, I think about it. I made four very bad decisions on the trades, but I made the most important decision, which I argue for anybody of my life was a good, good decision. We just passed 20 years of marriage, 2025. When I was interviewing her. It's pretty surreal to interview your wife for your memoir. So 2025, I figured I had to interview her for her perspective. And I said, what was it like for you?

25:23And she sort of set me straight. She said, Tom, thanks for asking because you never did. And she was correct. You know, I was so consumed with myself. Once my name became public as Tipper X, this FBI informant, I was so concerned with myself. And she was like, hello. I was here the whole time with the kids going to work she was holding down work well I couldn't work I blew a complete hole in our family financials because I couldn't work and we had bought the house on double income you know we had we were trying to stay positive and I just felt like I just couldn't believe how she handled it so well just interviewing her just last year for something that happened quite a long time ago and she said you know we've had good times we had tough times but we never had bad times so what do you mean by that she said well that times we would have turned to each other, I would have moved out.

26:10So we had tough times, but not bad times because I knew who you were. And so I hope people see you. The real hero of the book is not me. When you make those four bad decisions though, wouldn't it erode trust? I know you didn't do anything to her directly, but you did make bad decisions. And some would say, I might say this, well, if you could make bad decisions there, you're going to make bad decisions in other places that are really important and that can be a tough thing when it comes to the foundation of a relationship which is trust oh 100 100 and i think that's usually why the marriage ends because if you cheat here and sort of it's a lie of omission you know not not mentioning it where else would he be cheating and so you're to your point i think that's why most marriages dissolve because then the trust is lost in the marriage and i had to work hard you know again interviewing her my wife last year She said, all I remember is you accepted responsibility immediately.

27:05You didn't make up excuses. And so that was just, I guess, a feather in my cap. But it was rocky. She was able to work, thank God. But as I wrote, I was a stay-at-home dad at some point. We started our family. I was still in a shame spiral. There was one point where I saw there was a major bank years later who was laundering money for El Chapo. Nobody was arrested, no felonies. They just paid a fine. And I said, Sue, can you believe this? These people were laundering money for El Chapo in New York, and they're going home to their brownstones. And she said, hey, is that helping you find a job? So talk about a woman that can just put you back in your place.

27:41That's what I needed to. You go on to wear a wire. What are those conversations like? Where are you going? Where are you meeting these people? I'm thinking of goodfellas, you know, and they really speak poorly around about the snakes or the people who help the FBI. You know, I don't know what that's like. I'm fascinated. What is it like putting on a wire and going to have a conversation knowing the FBI is listening and knowing you might help put this person away? I mean, man, what was that like? So I told her Friday and I said, Monday, I have to have lunch with the FBI. I had my first lunch with the FBI after the Wendy's meeting.

28:15There was a small piece of metal on the table. And I was just so naive. I said, is that an extra BlackBerry battery? And they were probably looking at me. No, this is a recording device. This is a body wire. They said, yes, we want you to help us build cases. It's going to help you out. And they played up to my patriotism. You're doing this for your country. It wasn't for that. To be honest, it was just to help myself, just to maybe not have dire consequences at sentencing. But it was a weird situation because I had to build relationships with people. Usually somebody that wears a wire in a case, you would have to think about, would I wear a wire on a friend?

28:50There was one case where a guy wore a wire on his best man at his wedding. I'd like to think I wouldn't do that. But the woman that tipped me and the guy I had tipped, I had already won a wire on me. So I said, how do I help you? And they said, who are the worst actors? Now, Tom, here's your opportunity to help us. And so I just went with that. Hey, if I can help them, maybe it's something positive I could do. But I ran around. My first meeting was this guy in Silicon Valley. He would sit down. I would just get right to the point. Nice to meet you. Remember three years ago when you made those illicit trades?

29:21If you were a target, Ryan, why is this guy asking me these questions about crimes I committed? I just met this guy. The FBI would be at the table next to me because they wanted to make sure I wasn't sliding you a piece of paper. Hey, I'm wearing a wire. Don't talk to me, which would be obstructing justice. And so the guy would leave. I gave them the device. The next day, they'd say, Tom, you did a terrible job. And I'm like, guys, it's my first time doing this. There was no training in ethics class about wearing a wire. and eventually the coaching I got was ask a question and then be silent. I would always ask a question, the target would not say anything and I would just fill it.

29:56They said, ask a question, be silent. And then eventually by the third meeting, people would just start saying enough, oh, I have a contact inside this company and they often looked at me as the younger version of themselves and they were going to groom me into somebody who could be helpful for them. And the FBI would say, you're done here, go on to the next one. But I could get to the scariest moment too, where there was a guy high up the FBI's list who got me in 15 conversations. He would say nothing. He would always change the subject. I felt the wire must be huge in his eyes. He calls me Sunday afternoon and he said, Tom, we need to have dinner tonight.

30:34We need to talk. I called the FBI. I said, this guy you want wants to have dinner on a Sunday. They got excited. They met me at the train station in Manhattan, gave me the wire. I took the train up to Connecticut. he picks me up at the train station and he says, Tom, good to see you. I brought swim trunks for you. We're going swimming at my mother's house. And the Sopranos, that was the final season that summer. So all these ideas are going through my head. I played a cool guy in his car, said, let's go swimming. We drive to this old mansion in Connecticut. He starts disrobing in this room. He wants to see if something's taped to my chest.

31:08It was in my front pocket. Now I'm about to have a heart attack. I excused myself, went to the restroom. I took the wire up, put in my jeans, put these swim trunks on. So the two of us are walking out to this pool. It was so quiet. I saw a shovel against the house, a hole in the ground. I thought, oh my God, is this guy gonna try to kill me or something? And he was just having landscaping done. And we got in a swimming pool and he grabs a tennis ball. We're playing this awkward game of catch. So he's pouring it on. And after a while, he said, Tom, he spoke to a lawyer. He has one question for me.

31:38I was gonna give it up, Ryan. I just wanted to go home. He said, Tom, have you been approached by the SEC, which is the regulator? And truthfully, I could say, no, not the SEC. I was paltering. So I was trying to give him a hint, not the SEC. And he said, okay, I just had to make sure you weren't wearing a wire. Sorry about that. He starts telling me everything. Of course, it wasn't recorded. And the FBI later would say, we can't use anything because it wasn't recorded. That guy was actually never charged. I couldn't believe it. He was one of the worst actors. So they arrested 81 people. There was another two dozen, I was shocked weren't even arrested.

32:10Oh my goodness. So this is just rampant. Yeah, it was everywhere. How do you think it is today? Today, I think it's better. I've been sharing this story for compliance training for nine years, so hopefully it's better. But I would be surprised if 20 hedge fund people were in handcuffs today in New York City. But I think what I see is the new behavior is often ahead of the stock market police or the regulator police. So today, with prediction markets, a couple of weeks ago, So we saw somebody make$4 million making a bet that we were going to get the Venezuela dictator. And so that was somebody who they think had information.

32:45So I think insider trading, it's one of the oldest economic crimes ever. It goes all the way back to the founding of the New York Stock Exchange in the 1790s, the first stock that was insider trading. So it's like the longest economic crime. I just think it goes to new prediction markets. I think that's a wide open area for insider trading if they want to bring cases. what happens today too is the bad actors and the stocks are more like organized crime sometimes, whereas my case, the woman calls me, I trade. That's an easy one. The harder ones are maybe even involving hacking or cybersecurity where information is stolen from public companies and traded on by organized networks.

33:25The SEC's budget's maybe$2 billion to prosecute. But when you have all these bad actors in the world potentially doing this, it just becomes an issue of resources. So the easy cases are brought, the much more complicated cases, sometimes there's just not a push to go for those cases. What about when you see people tracking politicians and what they're doing? It seems like it would be illegal, but their track records of their net worth growing a ton when their salary is, you know, 150 grand or whatever is wild. Like, what do you think about that? I think it's probably the most like disgusting behavior.

34:00Xavier, I see this when I speak at a conference, they'll say, they got you for four trades. What about XYZ politician? And it's on both sides of the aisle. For sure. And you'll see it. And what happens is they'll trade the stocks or the spouse will trade the stocks like Paul Pelosi will trade the stocks with Nancy Pelosi. And there's a stock act. It's only a$250 fine they have to pay. And it's like, all right, let me do the math. I'll make$4 million on NVIDIA call options to pay a$250 fine. and the Congress people can actually trade the stocks with the committees they're on. So Dan Crenshaw, he was on the meta TikTok thing a few years ago, trading meta stock, and he's on the committee.

34:38How is this even allowed? And so what I think has to happen, and I hope one of the big things from my book when it comes out is to have a bigger platform to talk about these issues. We have to find a bill to pass to stop Congress from single stock trading. 86 % of Americans agree on nothing. They actually agree in a poll that Congress should not be able to trade single stocks. So I hope I just have a bigger platform to actually write the bill and give it to a Congress person to get it through. What happens, Ryan, is they have these 25 bills the last 12 years to stop this. It never gets to the president's desk.

35:10Every bill has a stipulation. If you own shares in a private business and you're running for Congress, you have to somehow monetize your private shares. And like, well, why would I run for Congress if I have millions of dollars in a private business and we want more business people, I think, and less career politicians. So that has to be taken out. So I actually have it all written up. If I can just get it out there to people, I'm happy to talk. Oh, I feel like that one would be popular with, I think, just everyday Americans. We don't like the thought of people cheating. I mean, that's what it is.

35:46And that doesn't feel good for everybody else. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Shifting again back to leadership and personal excellence. And I think when you're going through all this, you start running is what I'm reading about, right? Like punishing your body in a way, running lots and lots of miles. You start with short races and you end up with really, really long races. How has running helped you? Yeah. So at the time I got quite heavy for my frame. I was always standing up until like classic guy, mid thirties or something, and then not doing anything. It catches up. And I had a point where I was a stay at home dad in this saga.

36:20And I was carrying my daughter up the stairs and out of breath. and went to the doctor. And of course, I hadn't been a typical guy since college. You know, I'm 32 years old and he does the blood work. He says, oh my God, you're obese. And what? Like I'm saying, no, you're obese and your blood work's awful. What's happening? And so I told him my whole story for the first time. And I told my wife and she, again, she said, hey, you know, I used to be a soccer player through high school. Like, I'm going to sign you up. Maybe you have some endurance. So she signed me up for a 5K race. I think just even crossing the line at the 5K and she beat me pushing the jogging stroller.

36:50It just lit a fire. like, oh my gosh, I accomplished something. Like I just felt I was in such a shame spiral, but then it became sort of a mania for me. 5Ks went right to marathons and marathons became ultra marathons. I got up to the point when I was riding, I went back at my running logs. There was weeks I was running 140 miles. I was downloading Olympic training plans for Runner's World and saying, I can do this. And I would run twice a day. But also Ryan, as I was thinking about this, I was using running as a crutch to not have to deal with like what I had to deal with. So Sue would come home.

37:22How's the job search going? I got a race to train for. I've got this ultra coming up. So in many respects, I got very fit and that was good. And it got me out of my own head, but also it wasn't helping me move forward. I was doing way too much of that. I wrote in the book, this first hundred mile race I did was around a one mile loop. You think about what kind of headspace I was in to run a hundred miles around a one mile loop. I don't know. Like I read Dante's Inferno. It was probably one of those nine circles of hell I was doing right now. and you pass your car every time. And by mile 78, everything's breaking down.

37:55I had rhabdo where really things are breaking down in my body. I said, I'm done. I popped the trunk to the car. There was an air mattress. I said, I'm going to just take a nap. My race is over. Sue had left a note there. And she said, we didn't sleep on you. You can't sleep on us. And so I closed the trunk, finished the 100-mile race. And we were talking earlier about how she even stayed with me. That was just a proof point to me that she's going to stay with me, but only if I get my act together. After that, I said, I'm never doing ultra marathons again because I was not doing it in a healthy way.

38:27And now I just run for fitness. So it's a much more healthy relationship with running. Seems like you're a guy of extremes. Is that accurate? Yes. That's 100%. That's what my wife says all the time. Yeah, that's right. So how does that help you and how does that hurt you? Even looking back, as I was writing the book, just I had this tremendous ambition coming out of from Georgia, like unbridled ambition. I applied to this Ivy League college. Nobody from my high school ever went to an Ivy League college. And then I got deferred and I started making up business clubs. I was the president enough just to get in.

38:56So I had this unbridled ambition that eventually caught up with me in my career. Today, I would say I'm much more aware of that. And so I try to check myself when I'm getting a little bit too crazy about the newest thing, whatever that is for me. And so I just try to have a little bit more balance in my life. But I also, I'm of two minds because I think a very balanced life is boring. And I want to have something that I'm really obsessive about, but I don't want it to be the detriment to my other relationships or my other pursuits. So it's an ongoing process I'm working through. I run less and now I'm into master's boxing.

39:32And this is just something new for me, like combat sports and Tom did not mix. And so I've never, ever thrown a punch in my life. And boxing, you learn how to do all that. But I have a better relationship just, I guess, with my new sports or my new endeavors to try to have some balance, but also to be challenged. There's nothing like doing hard things because you learn so much about yourself. So that ultra marathon, there was negatives, but I also learned so much about myself that I can do things. And maybe when it got to the point in the book where I had to start a speaking business because we were running out of money, I said, I can do this.

40:03I can actually accomplish things because I put my body through that. So it's trying to find a balance, but I don't have a great answer. How does doing, I'm a firm believer in this, so I want to hear from your perspective, but I think doing hard things can create portable lessons, meaning you could take what you learn from whether it's a marathon, ultra marathon, getting punched in the face regularly as you're doing now. How does that help you? How is that portable to other areas of life? I think it just it shows me that no challenge is insurmountable I just like the growth that I feel when I try to take on something that seems insurmountable like I told my running group you know guys I'm tired of training for marathons I think I want to get into something else oh do you want to go cycling top no I think I want to get punched in the face like what like yeah because that is the most uncomfortable situation I could ever imagine being in but then the learnings from that it's a little bit like not a drug but a little bit like okay what's the next hit I can go after to have that feeling of just accomplishing something or just taking on something.

41:05So it's interesting that we're talking about this because I don't really think I have a fully developed idea in terms of what this is going to lead to. But I just know, I feel like I learn and grow a lot as a person. I just can't be status quo, not challenging myself. Are you ever scared though? I mean, you wore a wire a lot. Do you ever kind of look over your shoulder and say, hey, you know, I know this isn't Sopranos or Goodfellas, but I don't know. That's what I think of when I think of wires. You ever have those feelings? I was concerned. So back to the Tipper X story, I did this for two years and eventually I didn't know it was leading anywhere.

41:40Classic FBI agents, no feedback. 2009, they said, turn on CNBC, Tom. 20 people are in handcuffs in the middle of the Wall Street Journal. All their names are out except for one name. And they called that name Tipper X. I didn't know I was Tipper X. I'm an analyst, so I figured it out. Oh, it's probably me. And so I was scared that day, Ryan, because I thought these people are of means. I mean, they could pay somebody 5 ,000 bucks to do something bad to me and be nothing to them. And my name became released two months later. I got some threatening calls, emails. I always boarded those to the FBI to look into, and they said, oh, you're fine.

42:14So I actually just trusted them. I sometimes Google people in these cases, and most people, actually, it's interesting, have scrubbed anything bad about them. There's a way, I guess, to do that now off the Google. and I get these reputation management emails all the time now from AI bots. Mr. Harden, we found something bad about you on the internet for a certain price. I'm sure they would take it off. I have some fun. I reply and say, here's tipperx.com. Here's all the bad stuff. What do we do? And they couldn't figure out how to play with them because why not own it? Why not try to help people?

42:46I can't change the past, but I can have a windshield mentality where I'm only looking forward and not in the rear view mirror and actually late. A lot of people in their 20s do stupid stuff. Now, maybe not to this degree, but now in my 40s, I can look back and say, there's actually a lot of lessons I can learn. We mentioned with my kids, why not just embrace it rather than try to scrub it off the internet. And right in the book, one of the big things I figured out was the integrity gap between we are so focused on our reputations, whether it's social media or companies have reputation management they spend millions on, when we often neglect our character.

43:19And reading Stan McChrystal's book last year on character, He talks about that more. And I thought, oh my goodness, I would love to have Stan read my book. I cold emailed him. 28 hours later, he responded. He had read the whole thing and gave me a phenomenal endorsement. It was just an amazing moment for my life, kind of a full circle moment in my life to be able to get somebody of that status to actually read the manuscript and understand it. So that's something I call the integrity gap in the book. Your reputation is what people think you are. Your character is what you are. And that gap, those rationalizations we talked about often fill that gap and try to close the gap over time.

43:54When you think about your character, what are some of the things you do intentionally to live and lead a high character life? So one of the things I'm very attuned to is anytime today I'm rationalizing a decision, because I went through that in a very negative way as a young man. And so when my wife and I have big decisions to make or even little things, I have like a rationalization journal. So I don't really call it a daily journal because it's not daily, but I'll write those down and maybe once a month reflect on those and why did this pop into my head? What did I do about that? And what can I learn from it?

44:33And that's just checking myself in terms of everyday decisions. Because I know even having gone through this, I'm still susceptible of going down another type of slippery slope. Hopefully it's not a federal crime, but it could be something else in our life with our family. And if I'm not just sort of meditating on that a little bit and thinking about those rationalizations, I think for me, that's going to just improve my character over time or just make me more attuned to that, those passing thoughts in my head. Let's say you were teaching a class at an Ivy League school like you went to, and it was titled, Being an Effective Leader.

45:12You've learned from ineffective leaders or leaders with low character. Now that you've had this exposure and these experiences, I would love to hear what are some of the topics of that class you'd be teaching of being an effective leader? What would be on that syllabus? I think for me, some of the most effective leaders I've had the opportunity to engage with their teams, I would say they're almost like servant leaders where everybody can speak up, hey, I'm just another person at the company. Leadership is not so much by the title as it is by just how the person behaves. So I would just say, these are my mandates for the company, but hey, please speak up.

45:48If you have questions or disagreements, we're all on the same team here. You have to create that psychological safety inside the organizations so people can actually check you. And as I do in my workshops, we'll just workshop this where a leader has a new goal. And then the table, one table works as their biggest competitor. So how are they gonna challenge that? And then one table works as like the junior employees challenging that. And so we go around the tables, we have them challenge the leader and it's a control safe environment. And that my hope is that actually sort of changes behavior going forward in a good way.

46:23And also going back to our earlier conversation about what culture is, it's not what you say, you know, even us as parents, our kids actually see what we do, not what we say. And it's the exact same thing, what your behaviors are as a leader, what behaviors you're rewarding and incentivizing not what you say, it's what you do. I love that element of rewarding the ones who are doing it right, especially in corporate America. One of the companies I work with called Insight Global, it's cool that I just thought of them when it comes to this. They do this giant Titan trip. And to be a Titan, it has nothing to do with your financial performance.

47:00It has everything to do with living out the company's shared values. And they spend an insane amount of money on this Titan trip. It just happened. So it's top of mind. I was talking with one of the leaders who were there. And it's amazing to see these people celebrated for living up to the shared values. And I think that's something all companies can learn from is that's legitimately putting millions and millions of dollars behind something that doesn't necessarily have any... Now, I bet those people probably do well and add revenue to the company because they're living out the values, but that's not why they're there.

47:38They're there specifically because of that. I think all companies, and I'd be curious to hear what you think about this, all companies would be better served if they really care about high character and living out those values of doing things like that, where you're honoring those people who live them out. I think that's 100 % correct. You can't just be, again, ambiguous messages or just focused on short-term performance. Just focus on what the dollar goal is. you have to understand how the business was made, what was behind the performance. You also have to, I think as a leader too, share your own sort of ethical dilemmas that you've worked through in your career.

48:14Because we've all been in situations where we could make decisions to go left or right. And then how did you work through that as a leader? You have to be, but that also takes vulnerability. And sometimes people don't want to be too vulnerable in front of their people. But I think that makes you more endearing and a better leader to actually share your own flaws or just decisions that you made or bad mistakes or bad decisions you've made through your career because then it's all learning for employees. But I think you're correct. We can't just, and because I came from financial services, I think there's so much more focus on what's the number, what's the revenue, what are we producing for clients, and not so much a discussion as to how do we actually get there.

48:46Because how you get there is sort of like the sustainability of your career. If you're just focused on the short term, just the numbers, you have the opportunity to potentially get in a situation like me. It could be a totally different facts and circumstances, but it could be the same type of slippery slope. I was reading the end of your book, a business school professor calculated you would have made $23 million if you'd stayed on the hedge fund path. Your daughters joke with you about it. You're on a cruise ship and you're right. But I ended up with something better. What is that? Yeah. Something better is I ended up not with the life I had planned for.

49:20I had planned my whole life coming out of high school, Ivy League, hedge funds. That was all the plan. And that was going to be a hedge fund billionaire, like the people I read about in magazines. And then in the end, I got something better because it's not about the status. It's not about the money. It's about really just who I am with my family, with my relationships now. And it's not so much about status and money. And I speak at that professor's class every year. And it's good for the students to see that. But it does make my stomach turn. I mean, you're a human being. It's not comfortable to see that every time.

49:52but it's a good example for the students because me personally on those four trades, I made$46 ,000 and the students all look at me. So 23 million,$46 ,000 to throw your career away. Why'd you do it? And, you know, we walked through all the, the rationalizations, but I think today that's kind of where I am. Anybody in your forties, your priorities change from your twenties, but I just have a, a longer view on things now. And one of the most important books I read in this process was Road to Character by David Brooks. And he talks about eulogy virtues and resume virtues. And I realized, wow, in my 20s, I was just thinking about those resume virtues, how much money this year, the next job, the next stepping stone.

50:34I never was content to just say, I'm in a good place now. I was always striving. And I never thought about the eulogy virtues. What are people going to say about, we talked about character at the end when it's all over, because we all leave one way. Will people still be talking about four trades about 29-year-old Tom? Or whenever the day comes for me, what people obviously say, something about the eulogy virtues is something I think about too today, now in my life. The book is called Wired on Wall Street, The Rise and Fall of Tipper X, one of the FBI's most prolific informants. Tom, thanks so much for being here.

51:07Where would you send my viewers, listeners to learn more about you online? Thanks, Ryan. TipperX.com, I just found out in the US Patent Office, I have a trademark now on Tipper X, so there can be no more Tipper Xs out there. And I'm very active on LinkedIn, and writing, not just sharing my story, but just sharing a lot what we talked about today, Ryan, about slippery slopes. Just I hope leaders can read my little newsletter on LinkedIn and get something from it every week. I try to write every Monday. Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you and your team sending me over early copies of the book. I had not heard the story prior to this, and I just thought, what is this?

51:40So it was really cool to see that you just kind of lay it all out there. I appreciate that very much. It was eye-opening and enlightening. and the fact also that you're super vulnerable with all of it, just willing to share for the benefit of others and helping. And certainly you're building a career and getting after it. But I found that to be endearing and helpful. And it seems like you're as straightforward as it gets. So thanks so much for being here, man. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Ryan.

52:13It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Tipper X, Tom Harden. A few takeaways from my notes. Think of somebody on your team who does it the right way, who lives out your values and recognize them publicly, shine a bright light on their specific behaviors. That is how culture is built. It's by celebrating the people who do the right thing the right way, even if it costs them or the company from time to time. Find someone perhaps who lost the deal but did it because they refused to cut corners.

52:59That's why I shared that Insight Global story of the Titan trip. I love seeing the Titan celebrations. It's all about the people who are living the shared values and then celebrating them in a huge way. Then the difference between mistakes and bad decisions. Mistakes can be accidental. Bad decisions are intentional choices that go wrong. They are bad decisions. I like how Tom replied to that question. That language, it changes how you coach, how you hire, how you fire, how you build accountability. Tom uses it with his teenage daughters. You can use it all the time, whether it's at home or at work.

53:40And then start a rationalization journal. I've never heard of this. I've heard of gratitude journals or daily journals or Matthew Dick's homework for life, but a rationalization journal is different. Tom keeps one. When you're about to make a decision that needs justifying, write down the justification. If you're working really hard to explain it to yourself, then maybe that is a warning sign. I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Tom Harden. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, subscribe to the show, rate it hopefully five stars, write a thoughtful review by doing all of that.

54:27You are helping me do what I love on a daily basis and for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.

54:43We'll see you next time.