677: Erin McGoff - How to Communicate at Work, Negotiate Your Salary, Write Cold Emails, Overcome Rejection, Run Better Meetings, and Build a Career That Matters

16:41Ryan Hawk:It's disgusting. It's gross.

16:43Erin McGoff:It's gross.

16:44Ryan Hawk:It also is the opposite end of the spectrum to specificity. Or if someone said, Aaron, I watched a specific short form video about how to deal with the question. Tell me about yourself. And when you said this thing, it really piqued my curiosity. I would love to talk to you more about that. or whatever, something more specific about you and your life. What is it like being the youngest of six kids, having parents who are actual writers? The fact that those questions are more specific and more personal pique your curiosity and make you want to give better answers or at least interest you more. And so you're more excited and dialed in and that leads to a much better conversation.

17:31Ryan Hawk:that isn't just for podcasts. That's for life, right? That's for life. That's for conversations. That's for interviews for a job, whether you're the leader or the person going for the job. I think these are life skills that you're teaching, not just career skills.

17:45Erin McGoff:Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, people always say, this isn't good just for careers. This is good for my personal life too. And I'm like, yeah, that's strategic communication. It's, you know, careers are a bit more narrow because in your personal life, you can just get away from that person. But in your career, you're going to have to work with people that you don't like. So you have to figure out how to communicate with them. And I loved what you said about cold emails. I've made several videos on how much I hate the phrase, pick your brains. It makes me think of a lobotomy. But yeah, if somebody messages me and they say, hey, Erin, you know, are you free for a coffee chat?

18:15Erin McGoff:Like, no, I'm not. Or, hey, Erin, I heard you on Ryan's podcast. I really liked what you said about this specifically. I'm in a similar scenario where I go to your old alma mater. That is going to get a response because there's that mutuality there. There's a mutual connection. There's a similarity. And they took the time to actually invest. So I completely agree with you there.

18:34Ryan Hawk:Speaking of communication, you write, good professional communication is like chess. The obvious move isn't always the most advantageous for winning the overall game. You have to know how to play and think several steps ahead. What did you mean by that?

18:50Erin McGoff:So a lot of powerful communication actually comes down to emotional regulation and being mature. So oftentimes I'll post a video with good communication advice for the real world and in reality, not just, you know, an internet sketch that's funny, but something that's actually going to be effective. And people will say, they'll comment, you know, every now and then, why can't I just say what's on my mind? Why do I just sound like a robot? Why do I just sound like a corporate droid? And it's funny because, you know, if we just act impulsively, like from our id in psychology, just, you know, say what's on our mind all the time, it doesn't actually get you where you want to go.

19:26Erin McGoff:And so That's why my whole book is about your desired outcome. It's about always keeping in mind what the end goal is. It's check me. A lot of people, most people just play checkers. It's you said this to me, I'm going to say this to you. It's about thinking, what is this relationship? What is my goal at the end of the day? How does this person fall into my life? How can I use mouth sounds, as I say in the book, to get what I want? I always say good communication is chess, not checkers. It's about thinking 10 steps ahead. And I don't mean that in a manipulative way. It's more in a regulatory way where it's like, how can I maybe bite my tongue now or phrase something a little bit kinder so that I don't regret the way that I spoke tomorrow?

20:07Yeah.

20:08Ryan Hawk:Can I pose what is a real-life example? And then you give me real-time advice. And this is a communication question. So let's say you want a promotion and And you've caught the eye because of your great work from a very powerful, important person at your Fortune 100 company who's like an SVP or greater. That person, while they're awesome at their job, they're really good, they're in a leadership role, they're powerful, they also have a big ego. They are a fan of themselves. And we all can picture some of these people. So you want a promotion or more money or something like that for them. You want to stay at the company.

20:51Ryan Hawk:This person already is into your work because you've crushed it and you do really good work. What are some general ways you would approach a person like that in order to get to checkmate, in order to get to the thing that you want, whether it's promotion, raise, all of the above?

21:08Erin McGoff:It's a really great scenario. It's also a very common scenario.

21:14Ryan Hawk:Been there.

21:15Erin McGoff:Yeah. Right? You've been there personally?

21:17Ryan Hawk:Oh, yeah. For sure. I worked in corporate America for 12 years before doing all this. So there are absolute, the Harvard Business School, West Point grads who have it all, the perfect resume, super powerful, very smart. Also, ego is definitely there. So, yeah.

21:35Erin McGoff:I've personally never been really great at dealing with ego. That's like half the reason I left the film industry was there were so many people. I was like, guys, we aren't saving lives here. Everybody needs to dial it back a bit. Well, I'm curious. I'll give my feedback and advice, but I'd be curious also to hear what you would say as somebody who has dealt with this firsthand. It sounds like not just one time. So a lot of being a great communicator is actually putting your ego to the side. And it's something people are really hard at doing because we're trained from a very young age to protect our ego and our reputation and to stand up for ourselves.

22:10Erin McGoff:However, in some scenarios, it requires, and I am not saying you should grovel. I'm not saying that you should be fake with anybody. But just thinking about this person, not you. And that's what I mean by putting the ear you go to the side. Just taking a break from thinking about yourself and just thinking about this person and thinking about what their life is like and what their goals are like. So they're a senior VP at this company. They think they're really cool and they're in a position to give you something that you want. if I was a betting person, I would actually bet that they aren't actually super egotistical.

22:42Erin McGoff:They're probably actually really insecure about where they are in their career. And they probably wake up every morning because they don't know what they're doing. And they think, am I, am I at the right company? Should I have went and started my own company out of college? Maybe they have issues with their marriage. Maybe they have issues with their kids. They have dirty laundry at home. Like they're just a person. So I always try to humanize people, give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't make people wrong, which is really hard to do, especially in this day and age when people get heated very, very quickly and just try to humanize them, see them as a person and think about what their goals are and how can you align your goals with their goals and try to have that authentic relationship with them.

23:17Erin McGoff:Again, not thinking about yourself, but putting yourself in their shoes and then figuring out how you can align those goals. Yeah. And definitely, you know, where you can appeal to their ego, ask them about themselves and what their goals are and listen, like shut up and listen. I think we do a little bit too much talking sometimes. When we're trying to either negotiate or strategize, it can be very beneficial to just embrace the silence and some active listening. But yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

23:43Ryan Hawk:Thank you. I think that's super helpful, by the way. And I agree with all of it. I think one, and this has kind of come about naturally for me probably over the course of doing 670 of these things. Curiosity is an amazing way to show love. Being genuinely curious about a person is to me, again, it becomes more natural. And I think everybody has a story and there's something I can learn and I'm fascinated by people's stories. But acting in that way actually makes them like you. That's good with a person who has an ego or is insecure, all of the above. So being curious, as you just said. Also, there are probably really good attributes.

24:21Ryan Hawk:There are things that that person is probably really, really good at. it doesn't hurt to remind them that you see that.

24:29Erin McGoff:I like that.

24:30Ryan Hawk:It doesn't hurt. Yeah. And it's got to be real though. It cannot be.

24:34Erin McGoff:Has to be genuine.

24:36Ryan Hawk:Got to be genuine. So if they are good at, or whatever the thing they have to be, if they're in that role, they probably are. Whatever those things are, again, what's the magic word? Specificity. Tell them that you have learned this from them, that you appreciate this about them. It's got to be real. It's got to be genuine. It'll bring you closer. People like other people who like them. When you tell somebody something nice about themselves, that shows you like them, at least that part about them, they're probably going to like you. So people promote and hire people that they trust and believe in and people that they like.

25:13Ryan Hawk:And so those are some ways being curious, not being shy with the compliments, as long as they're specific and real. Those have been helpful ways. By the way, that kind of leads to good relationships just in general. Like with my wife, I do the same thing and she's not egotistical. She's not any of those things. I still try to act the same way. It works. I mean, so I think, again, these are like more life skills too, but it's being aware, being curious, noticing, and then just saying it. And it seems to help you connect with people.

25:47Erin McGoff:Absolutely. 100 % agree. and I think you hit the nail on the head with it has to be genuine and specific. A lot of people ask me, well, Aaron, how do I not make it feel so transactional or like I'm using them? And I'm like, well, don't make it transactional and don't use them. Like, just be genuine. I'm sure you can find one thing about that person that you truly admire. I mean, they didn't get there for nothing. So yeah, just always try to find like a, yeah, genuine. And don't, if anybody's listening to this, don't ever give compliments that you don't mean because people are actually way better at stuffing that stuff out than people realize.

26:18Ryan Hawk:Absolutely. 100%. Okay. I love your video on this one, running meetings. So this is a leadership podcast. Leaders run meetings. A lot of meetings are run really, really poorly. Let's wait for everybody to get in here. And it's 4.07. I noticed you were early to this Zoom call. Not surprised, knowing you. How can we as leaders run world-class meetings? Especially let's run meetings so at least others aren't secretly dreading them using your language. How can we run world-class meetings?

26:53Erin McGoff:There are thousands of management books written on meetings and meeting bloat. And just the time that we lose in meetings, especially since the pandemic, meeting bloat has gotten really, really bad. And on one hand, not everything has to be efficient. It's okay sometimes to have 15 minutes of small talk with your team. That's fine. I'm not telling people that they shouldn't do that. However, the most loving thing you do for other people is respect their time. And a lot of time is disrespected in meetings across the world and, you know, the country. So my first tip for running incredible meetings that people look forward to going to and are very, very productive is to maybe not have the meeting.

27:38Erin McGoff:A lot of meetings are completely unnecessary, or at least the way that they're set up or the people who are invited. or the way that they're run are really, really inefficient. Some companies have fantastically creative policies like no meetings Mondays or no meetings mornings or what company is it that does 25-minute meetings? So there's always buffers on both ends. I think finding these creative solutions can be really fantastic. Another thing, in addition to just deciding if there has to be a meeting at all, is making sure that the right people are invited to the meeting. there's a lot of different experts who will say, you know, four is the right number, five is, you know, if you go over that, it's, I don't know.

28:20Erin McGoff:You can read different people and decide for yourself, but just make sure that only crucial people are invented. And then third is to just have an agenda. I mean, when was the last time you went to a meeting and at the top of the meeting, they said, here are the three things we're going to cover today and here's the goal of this meeting. That's what high-performing people do. And they don't just do that in the meeting itself, but they put it in the calendar link and they put an outline. And it doesn't have to be anything insane. It can just be three bullet points and then a goal. Here's what we're going to do at the end of this meeting.

28:49Erin McGoff:Don't have brainstorming meetings. Have meetings with very tangible goals at the end. State them up front and make sure that that goal has been achieved by the end or some other, you know, meeting has been set to achieve that goal. And one other just like really practical tip for any managers out there, email subject lines are a very underutilized source for respecting people's time and communicating clearly. I really love it. Actually, my dad's company, I think, is where I learned this from. They would put three different tags on the subject lines of their emails. They would put like request, informational, or like it was a command or something.

29:24Erin McGoff:And there were basically three categories of emails. So you knew in your email inbox exactly what was going to happen. And that would translate to meetings as well. Just being really clear about what type of meeting it was and what the goal was. you will be shocked at how much more you can get accomplished in a much shorter amount of time with just clearly labeling your emails, meetings, and what the goals are.

29:47Ryan Hawk:I like that. Okay. I'm going to ask a question about something I'm terrible at. And I hope you can help me. So you get asked this in interviews sometimes, where do you see yourself in five years? I struggle to do this beyond next week. I'm more head downs. Let's do the work in front of me as hard as I can and be as prepared as possible. And I'll worry about next week, next week. Not always great, but can be effective in the short term. How do you best make a useful, great five-year plan?

30:23Erin McGoff:So I talk a lot about five-year plans, but not in the way other people might approach them. So I actually don't really believe in making a five-year plan and sticking to it. Maybe that's my type Z personality or whatever I have, but I just think the world is changing way too rapidly to put yourself in a box. However, I am a huge, huge, huge fan of making a five-year plan. And that's because the exercise of thinking about future you actually creates new neural pathways in your brain that change the way that you think about yourself in your life and even what you're going to eat for lunch that day.

31:01Erin McGoff:So I would say a happy life is an intentional life. And a lot of people, I dare say, the vast majority of people float through life. They kind of take it one day at a time and they act very reactionary. So this happens, then I do this. This happens, then I do this. The exercise of sitting down and making a five-year plan and thinking about, okay, I'm 25 now, when I'm 30, like when I'm actually 30 years old on my 30th birthday, What do I want to feel like? Like, what do I want my bank accounts look like? What kind of car do I want to be driving? You don't have to stick to it, but just thinking about what do I actually want in five years?

31:38Erin McGoff:That is such a powerful exercise to just do the actual exercise and then you can throw it away. Or you can adjust it or you can create five different five-year plans, which is something I recommend, especially for people who are young and don't know which path they're going to take. But thinking about the future is self-care. That's just what I think. And discipline is self-care for future you. And especially too, I highly recommend if you have a boyfriend or a serious partner or a fiance, sit down with them before you get married and do this together because your five-year plans might look really, really different.

32:12Erin McGoff:And this might be a very revealing time for you, or they might look really, really similar. You might double down, but it's really, really important to think about your future.

32:21Ryan Hawk:What are some of the things on your current five-year plan?

32:24Erin McGoff:Oh, so I'm 30. So I'll be 35 in five years. It's probably a kid in there somewhere, maybe two. We'll see. I am married. I've been with my husband since I was 14. So it's probably about time. Let's see. What else? I don't know. I'm actually really happy with my life right now. So if my life looked like this in five years, I would be really happy with that. I like my house. I like my dog. I like my job. So for the first time, actually, I think my five-year plan, it doesn't look that different except for the whole, you know, kids flipping your world upside down thing. That will probably change a lot for me eventually.

33:00Ryan Hawk:I identify with that too. I did this actually with my team of coaches recently and said, Hey, okay, what's the dream setup for us? What are we doing? Where are we at? And it was funny. I mean, I feel so lucky to get to work with my guys, but one of my teammates, Garen Stokes, who's just one of the greatest, he goes, I got to be real with you, man. I want to be doing exactly what I'm doing right now. This is the dream. And I just, I mean, one, that made me feel very good, but I believe him completely. And I thought, man, me too, me too. Like, I'm sure there'll be different things. So that's why the five-year thing sometimes is hard because if you feel fortunate to be doing something very cool that lights you up every day and you're like, ninja kick out of bed is another one of Garen's isms.

33:47Ryan Hawk:I'm not excited before the alarm goes off because of what I get to do today. It is a pretty cool spot to be in. But also, maybe there are bigger things that could help me put a bigger dent in the universe to use your dad's language. Maybe that could be part of it too. Do you have those big, put a bigger dent in the universe beyond being a mom and things like that that you think could be on that list?

34:11Erin McGoff:Oh, yeah. Definitely have financial goals. want to be financially free next five years. So that's a big one. And I'm founding a tech startup right now. So I want that to be very successful, preferably the next six months, but five years, I want it to be helping lots and lots and lots of people and having transformed the job market. I want to be working on my second or third book. I really liked writing a book. After writing short form content, it posed a particular challenge, writing, but I really liked being able to expand and having space to expand after years of fitting things into 60 seconds.

34:47Erin McGoff:Really, I'm mission-driven. So my goal is to help as many people as possible in profound ways and to make money while doing that and to wake up every day and feel really relaxed and happy. Anything that can fit into that is on my fighter plan.

35:04Ryan Hawk:Maybe this is a weird question based on just watching your videos. do you want to act or like be a part of big movies? I mean, you do it really well. You usually play both roles. If there are two people in the video, you're both the boss and the employee or whatever. Do you want to do that? Like a movie shows, anything like that?

35:24Erin McGoff:I talk to myself all day. I don't think I'm a good actor at all. I did work in the film industry and I do have like a little personal goal. I would love to like have a film at Sundance, which is funny because I'm going to Sundance next week. That's always been like a dream of mine. I still have like some film industry goals. So actually one of my general goals is to get really rich and then to start my own film production company and then to fund people I want to fund because so much of the film industry is gatekept and even more now with these consolidations happening, there's like five people in Hollywood who can greenlight your project and they only greenlight existing directors projects.

35:58Erin McGoff:So anyway, I want to be the person to tell people yes. And yeah, I mean, I have pitched actually a few series the past few years. I've gotten really close to getting them greenlit. But the film industry is a complete disaster. That you're in? Or would you be in them?

36:11Ryan Hawk:Yeah.

36:12Erin McGoff:Nonfiction, though. So they wouldn't be acting, per se. Structured reality, yeah.

36:18Ryan Hawk:What would that look like?

36:20Erin McGoff:I can't really get into any type of details. But I personally really like unstructured reality or structured reality shows. And so I think these kind of like social experiments are really interesting. And I would love to executive produce some of those. But the industry is really not in a place now where it's taking any type of creative risks. So it's a dream that be for the next five-year plan. Yeah.

36:41Ryan Hawk:I appreciate the transparency of saying, I want to get really rich so I can do this green light, cool projects that I would do as well as others. just being that honest instead of acting like that's not what you're trying to do, I think is inspiring for people to hear.

37:00Erin McGoff:Oh, yeah. It's like totally fine to say you want to make up a ton of money. I mean, a lot of people are raised with that being discouraged because, especially in like religious communities, like, oh, that scene is greedy. It's absolutely not. It's greedy to make a bunch of money to keep it and to not put it back into the economy or put it into people, which a lot of people do. But my goal is to make a ton of money and then use money, which is power, to give wonderful people opportunities to then in return make the world even better. So yeah, those are the types of people we need to make rich.

37:30Ryan Hawk:I agree with you. Speaking of that, you have some stuff in your book as well as videos about people who want to ask for a raise. What is the best way to ask for a raise?

37:45Erin McGoff:One thing about writing a book is that you write a whole chapter on something and you're like, where do I begin? There's so much I could say. I gave a whole TED talk on asking for a raise. My first tip is to fix your mindset before going into it. So a lot of people think, oh, I need to go in and ask for a raise pretty please. That's actually not at all what you're doing. Your job is transactional. You get hired to do a job and you do that job and they pay you. It's 100 % transactional and it's a deal. So they're paying a market value for you to do a job and you agreed to that market value. You said, yep, that sounds good.

38:27Erin McGoff:The problem is that it's largely subjective, but it's also not. You can find a lot of data to back up what you should be paid. There's never been a better time for pay transparency ever in the history of humanity. So the one thing is, yeah, resetting your mindset. And I actually encourage people to not say, can I have a raise, but rather, can I have an adjustment to my compensation? This is no longer an equal partnership. When I accepted the salary, I was doing XYZ. Now I'm doing XYZ plus ABC. And so it's unfair now. And we need to adjust this to be equal, to be a fair partnership. My phrase most uttered in the book is, it's not personal, it's just professional.

39:06Erin McGoff:And sometimes when people, when they hear me say that, they say, oh, but it is personal. It's your life. It's not what I mean. I mean that it's not an emotional conversation. You're not asking for a raise. You're saying we have a deal, we have a partnership, we have a transactional partnership, and currently you're getting more value out of this than I am, and it's just not going to work for me. It's like hiring a wedding vendor and them saying this is my price, and you're saying, well, I want to pay you less. It's like, well, that's my price. That's what I charge. It's just objective. It doesn't need to be some emotional argument.

39:34Erin McGoff:The second thing is you need to have good timing. So going in after a big win, going in when the company is doing well, discussing at your performance review, these are all good times. However, it isn't just usually a one and done. So whenever you're negotiating something, I guess this is number three, is that you need to know two things. The first thing is your audience. You need to know who you're talking to. For example, in a lot of big companies, your manager can't snap their fingers, go into the payroll software, and give you a raise. They actually need to go make the case to somebody else and advocate on your behalf.

40:07Erin McGoff:So they can actually only get you a raise if you give them a case to make to somebody else. So it's not about necessarily getting your boss to agree. That's just one half of the equation. You actually have to give them ammo to go negotiate on your behalf. That is so common. And that's something that a lot of people don't understand until they're in management positions. The second thing you need to understand is your leverage, which I talk about a lot in the book. You will not get a raise if you're a bad employee. They won't give it to you because they're like, why? We want you to leave anyway.

40:36Erin McGoff:You need to be so good at your job. And I'm not saying you need to work hard, get there first and stay light. yeah, I guess that doesn't hurt, but that's not being good at your job. Being good at your job is providing value, a ton of value, being great to work with and doing great work. And so the more leverage that you have, the more valuable you are to this company, the more valuable they know you'll be to other companies. So the only chip you really have to play is the ability to walk away. And that's your leverage. I can go join another company. That's where the ultimate leverage is another offer.

41:07Erin McGoff:That's a great way to negotiate. So yeah, first remember that it's not personal, it's just professional. And then of course, use the right language, of course. And then remember your audience and your leverage. And there's a lot more, obviously, in the book. I talked through a lot of different scenarios. If your boss is pushing back, you know what to do. But that's kind of the short of it.

41:25Ryan Hawk:Yeah. Some of the be so good, they can't ignore you is at play here, right? Be so good at your job. Also, speaking to the other side of this, to the people who have the power to make these changes to give these raises. When I was fortunate enough to be in leadership positions, and I had some studs like the superstars on the team, proactively giving them a raise without them asking for it. Those people were with me for life. I'm still close to them. We haven't worked together in some cases for a long time. But you can do it as a leader. It takes work. You got to go advocate for them. And you do it without even telling them.

42:03Ryan Hawk:And then you just bring them into your office and say, by the way, I love you. I appreciate how hard you work for us and for this team. And because of that, I'm giving you this and you've earned it. And I will always fight to keep getting this for you. And don't just do it at the time when you give them like once a year score, you're a one out of whatever, a five out of five. Do it like at a random time of the year when nobody's expecting it. It's just like gift giving. Gift giving is so powerful if You do it outside of the normal times of gift giving. I think raise giving. So to the other side of that, as leaders, think about those people who are so good that they can't be ignored and be proactive, especially if they're the types who it would crush you if they walk in your office and say, Peace, I'm going somewhere else because they gave me more money or something.

42:51Ryan Hawk:So why not just be proactive? I think that's what excellent leaders do is they're more proactive when it comes to using their power for good.

42:58Erin McGoff:Absolutely. Yeah, it shows the sign of a great, great manager. And also the flip side of that is most people won't have those proactive managers. I just had a guy message me yesterday and he said, I haven't gotten a raise in four years. And I said, how many times have you asked? And he said, never. So, well, closed mouths don't get fed. In general in life, you can't expect anyone else to do anything for you ever. No one can read your mind. It's wrong. A company shouldn't go four years without giving somebody a raise. But the word should is a prison. and you can't expect anybody to do anything for you.

43:30Erin McGoff:So you have to be the squeaky wheel. You got to make it really crystal clear what you want and when you want it. Yeah, speak what you want into existence.

43:38Ryan Hawk:I'm curious about you and your career. So I feel like when you start with these viral videos, you kind of come at it from an outsider's perspective. But now you have this book called The Secret Language of Work. Penguin Portfolio, right? Like one of the best publishers in the world is giving you a big book deal. The book's out. and is crushing. Are you still having this kind of outsider's view and perspective when it comes? Or are you more on the inside now because of your notoriety, because of all of the awards you've earned and the great work you've done? How do you manage that?

44:11Erin McGoff:Ryan, that's actually a really good question that no one's ever asked me before. And it's something that I would love to talk about. So there's something called the knowledge curse. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. But yeah, it basically describes when you are an expert in something, it's really hard to imagine not being an expert in that thing. And it can be really hard for me to remember what it was like to go into an interview with my hands clammy. Actually, I'll never forget that. That's ingrained in my brain. But other things, it can be hard to remember what it's like. And so there are a few things that I do.

44:42Erin McGoff:One, I moved back to Maryland. I live in the suburbs now. I loved living in New York, but my friends in New York were all crazy ambitious. They all knew the secret language of work. They were an anomaly. And so moving back to Maryland in the D.C. area, I get to experience, I don't know, people just work in like normal corporate jobs a bit more. And that actually is something I'm really grateful for because I get so much insight into like, what's it actually like to work, you know, as a SVP at this government contractor. So that's something that, you know, I try to really talk to people as much in real life as I possibly can.

45:18Erin McGoff:and then also talk to people through DMs. I'm very fortunate to have an incredibly generous audience. And every day I DM with people, you know, what's it like being an IT worker in North Carolina? What's it like being a nurse in Kentucky? And I just kind of like listen to them and hear their stories about their bosses or their coworkers or their job search. And that really helps me stay grounded because I wake up every morning, I read three business and job market newsletters at minimum. And sometimes the data tells a really different story than people's actual experiences. So I am very grateful for my audience sharing their personal anecdotes with me on a regular basis.

45:56Erin McGoff:I get on calls with people for free, and I just like to listen to what they're going through. But I worked at National Geographic in corporate for the first two years of building Advice with Aaron. So I'm not a stranger to it. But yeah, it is kind of a struggle sometimes. Or not a struggle. I think I successfully actually navigate that struggle of keeping that perspective, I should say, and remembering that it's one thing to give advice and it's another thing to follow it. And it's hard. Sometimes I don't even follow my own advice. So it's easier said than done, all of it.

46:27Ryan Hawk:You're supposed to have all the answers and have it all figured out. Right. Yeah. At times, I remember speaking to James Clear about your habits have to be perfect. And he's like, no, you wrote the book on habits. I mean, but like you, right? You're the secret language of work, advice with Aaron. You're supposed to know it all. And, but you're also a, you're an intelligent one, but you're, you are just another human out there trying to figure it out, you know, my best, just like everybody else

46:55Erin McGoff:winging it every day as I go along. Yeah.

46:57Ryan Hawk:I love this, uh, champagne question that I learned from my friend, Jason Gaynard. And I'd love to ask it to you. And that is we're meeting exactly a year from now. And we're popping bottles. We're celebrating. I'm curious. It's your life. What are we celebrating?

47:15Erin McGoff:I think we're celebrating a lot of things.

47:18Ryan Hawk:Okay.

47:18Erin McGoff:I think we're celebrating my startup, Stupid Fish, helping at least 500 ,000 job seekers feel more confident about themselves and find careers they love. That's a little ambitious, but I always love to set my goals really high because I don't care if I fail. I just care if I try to reach them. And yeah, I maybe signed a second book deal. That would be kind of cool. I already have my second book concept and it's really good. I'm really excited about it. And yeah, I don't know. If those two things happened in my career, I would be extraordinarily happy. And I think just maintaining my work-life balance too.

48:00Erin McGoff:Like if a year from now I was still feeling this happy and relaxed in my career and fulfilled and getting to help people every day in really meaningful ways, I can't ask for anything more. All right.

48:13Ryan Hawk:I'm going to check back in a year. All right. One year. I love it. I'm going to check back in a year. What about you, Ryan?

48:17Erin McGoff:I want to know yours.

48:18Ryan Hawk:I want to have my next book, The Actual Artifact, in my hands and be able to turn and look at the pages. That would be a pop in bottles moment to actually have the artifact of itself. And I'm on the path and it should happen. but it doesn't happen until it does. So I think that's like...

48:36Erin McGoff:What's the status right now?

48:37Ryan Hawk:I mean, the manuscript is done. So that's the hardest part. And so as you know, so I think that would be a big moment because I've done it before. But creatively, I think it's the hardest thing in the world to do is to write a good book and work with one of the big publishing houses because they work very slowly, at least a lot slower than I would like. You know this. And so what should be done, but I get it. They have their own stuff, but it should be quicker. So anyway, your book to focus on that, I think is really well-written. It's fun. Your personality comes out. It's called The Secret Language of Work, Hyper Helpful Scripts for Every Situation.

49:20Ryan Hawk:Really good subtitle too. I love that one. It's like, it's like hyper helpful scripts for every situation. Really good. I encourage people to get it and read it. Aaron, thank you so much for doing this. And I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Definitely going to follow up with the champagne moment, hopefully within a year. And we're talking about your startup, your next book deal, work-life balance, all that stuff. So thank you so much for being here.

49:44Erin McGoff:Thank you so much, Ryan. This was a fantastic interview.

49:51Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Aaron McGoff. A few takeaways from my notes. Master the, quote, tell me about yourself answer. Past, present, future. With an extra personal touch at the end. Don't ramble. Don't apologize. Give them a clear story of who you are and where you are going. And then do the five-year vision exercise. This is something I'm terrible at, but want to get better. Write it down. Where do you want to be?

50:32Ryan Hawk:What do you want to be doing? Who do you want to be with? If you're married, do it separately first, then compare. Make sure you're building toward the same future. Very useful exercise. Even in a world that is uncertain and chaotic at times, it's useful to map this out. And then when you want to earn something from someone powerful, humanize them first. They're also just figuring it out as they go. Think about how you can align your goals with theirs. Practice active listening. Be genuinely curious. Ask questions. Listen. Ask follow-ups. Be specific. The word of this conversation is specificity.

51:16Ryan Hawk:Make it a conversation, not a pitch. Again, be specific. I think once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Aaron McGoff. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, subscribe, write a review, hopefully rate it five stars by doing all that. You are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much.

51:50Ryan Hawk:Talk to you soon. Can't wait.