679: Kat Cole - From Hooters Waitress to $500M CEO, You're Interviewing for Your Next Job Every Day, Learning vs. Ego, The Four Key Mindsets for Senior Leaders, and The Journey of Who You Become

26:22So these things are related. And I look for, especially at that level, right? at a C-suite level, someone who's leading other leaders, they're going to hire other people, their leadership and their style trickles far into the organization. I mean, I look for, it sounds like a tough standard, but I look for mastery over those things and a level of self-awareness. And that's tough to really know for sure, but you can get at it with questions and reference checks and asking people to tell stories about situations and you can get a pretty good sense. So those four mindsets, humility, curiosity, courage, and confidence or characteristics are table stakes for me.

27:00And by the time they get to me through an interview process, they've been vetted. To your point, they have very high technical capability. We've got whole panels of what we call bar raisers. I think that was taken maybe from Amazon or some great company of people of very high standards in a particular area and are a part of a group or a council that help vet top talent. And so by the time they get to me, I validate some of those things and I push on areas where I'm looking for true, like future leaning levels of expertise where it may not even be common today, but I wanna know they're gonna lead for the future, not just be really good at a way of working from the past.

27:39But I really spend time on humility, curiosity, courage, and confidence.

27:43Ryan Hawk:Could you take me inside the room when you're having those conversations? Now, I know they're vetted. They're probably really, really good before they get to you. I mean, you still probably have to say no every once in a while, right? You don't just rubber stamp these things. So could you take me inside the room? I just love to hear like, you're such a curious person and such a thoughtful person to hear what it sounds like, the questions you ask. I've seen the best CEOs seem to make it more conversational so they can genuinely get to know a person less like a rigid interview. I don't know what your style is.

28:12Ryan Hawk:I feel like it would be more conversational, but what's it sound like? What are you saying? What are you asking when you're with a senior leader who you may hire? As it relates to pushing on these characteristics and trying to get some truth to emerge or some clarity to emerge, I will typically ask about a very challenging time in one of their more recent roles. and we'll usually get to one, what went wrong or what is the one thing when you look back you can speak to was a real miss in decision-making for the company or some version of that. And it depends on what the role is and what the level is, but I will work to get to a memory of a situation where they are honestly reflecting on like mistakes were made, lessons were learned.

29:06So we talk about that thing. And then I'll start to ask questions. One of my favorite groups of questions is this if not for question. Because usually people will then tell you how they stood tall in those moments, how they helped those moments, how they led those moments. Of course, that's what they should be doing then. So what I'll ask is, well, what enabled you to do those great things in that tough moment? And then they'll tell me. I had access to this data. I had access to this team. I had this incredible technical leader who was able to do X. And then I'll say, okay, if those people did not exist, if that resource did not exist, how would you have navigated that?

29:49Now, usually I'm doing two things. Often I'm talking to people who've been at companies that are much larger than ours, and I'm trying to get to, can you do the thing you're telling me you're great at doing with different and potentially fewer resources? And do you even have the humility to recognize how other people, resources, and teams contributed to your ability to have impact. So this if not for, if not for that data set, if not for that incredible PR team, if not for that incredible manufacturer, how would you have gone about it? What might you have done differently? And that, it's an onion, man.

30:25You just peel back the layers and you get deeper and deeper and you start to see, wow, okay, this person actually has no humility. No matter how I ask it, they have no ability to acknowledge that their success was in great part due to some critical factor. And I can even tell it in the story and they're not willing to, or the opposite, right? They really acknowledge how important, how powerful that was. And sometimes in that particular instance, they'll even say, and that is why if I join your company, this will be a critical role that I need. So it's, I'm looking for that humility and that curiosity, but then also courage and confidence.

31:06You know, if they say, oh, this was a terrible idea and everybody knew it and the CEO made the decision anyway, what did you do about it? Did you say anything? Why not?

31:17Ryan Hawk:Don't you like the people who start doing the job in the interview? So Kat, if we're doing this, then we will absolutely need this person in this specific role. Or they even have people in mind they're going to bring with them. I love it hiring leaders who have people that are that loyal to them, that believe in them. To me, that's a good sign. That's not a good old boys network or whatever. I like it when that happens, when they have those people and they start doing the job. They obviously thought about it before the interview. We're going to do this and then we'll do this and we'll do this.

31:45Ryan Hawk:And it's legit. It's real. Yeah. And the question, the situational path of questioning, if you focus on what are you really trying to understand, it is revealing. And I agree, if someone has the humility to acknowledge the enablers to their success, and then even future cast how that might be needed if they were in our company, of course, at that point, they probably don't know all the resources in our company. So I give grace for what they don't know. So that's how I get at those particular characteristics. And then I, you know, reference checks, as many as I can. And I ask similar questions, things like, what does this person need to be successful?

32:34It is a very positive framing to get at what might someone lack or what might they require around them to be effective. And so you put all those data points together and it's usually pretty accurate.

32:52Ryan Hawk:Yeah. One of the elements that I think you're really good at and have been for the past decade that I've known you is Scott Belsky would say you got to narrate the journey. You got to be a good storyteller. I mean, that's how you ended up at AG1. We just talked about that being an incredible communicator on a podcast. as the CEO, as the person running the show, how important is it to you to continually get better as the narrator of the journey, as the storyteller, as going direct, right? You're doing that right now by going on podcast. I'd love to hear, again, your overall philosophy on storytelling, communication, and CEOs being the narrator of the journey.

33:32I mean, it's critical, right? Because the CEO and most top leaders, but certainly whoever is viewed as the most senior leader sets the velocity and the tone. And so while strong leaders within an organization also do that, certainly whoever is viewed as whether it's the founder or the CEO who carries the most cultural weight, it's critical. But when I was listening to you ask the question, it's like, yes, it's so important to name the thing, narrate the journey, help people. One of the ways I talk about this with the team is I tell them, I'm often wondering how I can help answer the question, how should I think about this?

34:16We have a fully remote company. We're together often in work sprints and in regular meetings, but still it's fully remote. And so you have even less context. You have even less, fewer vibes, right? You're not together, so you don't feel the energy. And so if I were to send a note that says, we're ending this particular line of products, or we're going to launch this product that we've said we were never going to launch before, and now we are. It's a change, and it's a change that can disorient people. So what I imagine is in many people's minds that is subconscious is the internal war of how should I think about this?

34:55Is it good? Is it bad? Is it because of something I did or not? Oh, that meeting, that leader was kind of tense. Is it because of me? Or maybe their child is sick. Right, this, how should I think about this? How should I think about this? So I believe leaders should think about the recipient's inner monologue, even if it's just this split second of how should I think about this? So I will start communications with, here's how I think about this. Here's how I think we should think about this. What is the opportunity? What is the lesson? What is the action? What does it mean? What is it indicative of?

35:33What is it not about? So when I think of narrating the journey, that particular area of focus is important to me and what came to mind when you asked the question. But the other thing that came to mind is when you have a great team, and I do, a phenomenal team, just all incredible in their own technical right, and who bring very different voices and opinions and styles to the table, sometimes the answer is to STFU. Just be quiet and speak last. Listen. And I've gotten that feedback. As my teams get stronger, there is more weight on the few things I say, truly being needed and impactful and helpful, and leaving the space for other leaders to lead.

36:33and architecting that. There were some meetings over time that I just said, I'm not gonna be in them anymore because of course I have a point of view. Of course I have an opinion. Of course I'm comfortable in my own skin and in my own company to like throw out whatever comes to mind. That may not be helpful or needed in that moment because I have such great leaders and the culture is strong and there's a deep understanding of what we're solving for and whose opinion we care about and who we're doing something for. So I thought of those two things when you asked. One, this helping people answer the question, how should I think about this?

37:08Not just what is the clear message? Is it clear on what we're doing and why and what's next? But the context, how should I think about this? Because that affects culture. That affects what people feel and think and do when few people are watching in the sidebar chats and conversations. And then alternatively, being better at being quiet. or being better at letting someone else set the tone. And now that's a lot of trust and a lot of responsibility in a leadership team, but that's certainly been the journey I've been on.

37:41Ryan Hawk:As you've grown, it's like the bigger you get, the more light that shines on you and the more opportunity for people to hate on you guys, specifically competitors. You know this is part of the deal. And I saw on Twitter, Brian Johnson, the don't-die guy, I kind of went after you guys recently about some study or whatever without getting into the details. How does it go at your company when you get attacked like that by someone who's trying to sell their version of something that's not maybe a direct competitor, but could be viewed that way because it technically is a supplement? How do you guys manage through things like that?

38:16Ryan Hawk:Because he's got a big platform. He's got a lot of people that listen to him. It could potentially put a dent in some things. How do you handle that? I think about a few things. One, anytime there's criticism or questions that come often on the internet, the way I think about it is a few things. One, are there themes? Are there patterns? Is there something to pay attention to here that is reflective of questions of the industry? We're one of the largest in the space. So, of course, we're going to be the tip of the spear for criticism in many cases. And you don't have to look far at many companies who have their share of criticism, but they're leaders in the space.

38:53Apple, Tesla, Nike, Lululemon. The list is very long of beloved brands that are market makers, leaders in category, where you don't have to look very far to find someone who, you know, doesn't love what they do or how they do it, especially competitors, to your point. So I think of a few things. One is I always want our team to pay attention to real themes that we should be listening to that will help us get better. Sometimes there are criticisms of things that are like we already have the answer to, and we're already the shining bright example of things like human trial research, things like quality and certification, but maybe we're not doing a good enough job marketing it and communicating it and making it easy for people to see.

39:40So in that regard, critique or competition makes us better because we have the capital, the scale, the customers, the brand, and the commitment to truly be the best. And so if something we're doing that's already the best in category isn't coming through, we have to do a better job communicating that. So that's one. The second is this framing of what are the incentives and motivations? And certainly if someone is selling their own similar products and they're a challenger brand or a startup, look, it's a real playbook. How do you get attention in a world that is so difficult to cut through? Well, one way that's an effective playbook for many is to take a leader in a space and use that as the jumping off point.

40:26We're like them, but better. We're like them, but cheaper. We're like them, but we have this ingredient. And so what you hope is that consumers that you're targeting will see that and see through it. And in fact, we hear that. We hear people say, oh, I saw an ad of someone comparing their product to yours, and they're clearly saying you're the leader. Of course, the comparison ads do a job and they work short term, but they don't build credibility long term. So first, pay attention to themes. What can we learn? What do we need to do better? Two is keep context in mind and incentives in mind. And if someone is selling a competitive product, they obviously have a reason to try to put a very negative angle on anyone else in the space.

41:10But the third is also this responsibility to make sure facts are out there. To your point, there are really well-followed creators out there. The algorithms reward dopamine hits and rage bait. And think about, you know this, you're a creator, right? Podcasts, what gets the most traction, the most like hyped clips and the headlines and the music and the cuts, and that's what gets us. And so that is both real and sad. And we have to recognize that something that is not true or that is a negative spin can very quickly become widely seen or clicked on and sadly maybe even believed because the critique or the rage bait may be brief and witty, but the explanation and the truth is long.

42:02So if someone says, oh, your product doesn't have research, it's like, if you actually went to our website, we have more human trials on AG1 on a single SKU than any other multi-ingredient product, I believe, ever in the space. We have four published human trials that prove benefits. We don't make claims without research-backed benefits. We're too big to get away with that. The smaller companies do. And so there are times where then you do need to say, hey, this is the truth. You try to get the shortest version of it out there. We're the most clinically studied multi-ingredient single SKU product out there.

42:40Here's the link. Here's the proof. Here's where to find it. And sometimes outright saying that's not true. Or you're highlighting something and treating it as if it's X when it's really Y. I remember someone said something about one of our products a few years ago, and what they were saying about it wasn't even what the product is supposed to do. And so my line has always been, it's like criticizing a car for not taking you to the moon. Yes, it moves people, but that's not what it's supposed to do. So getting people riled up about a car that doesn't take you to the moon when that's not what it's supposed to do is kind of weird.

43:17But people can get riled up about a car that doesn't take you to the moon because somebody makes it kind of rage-baity. And so all of that, right, in terms of the team, you help people know how to think about this. You remind them of where the criticism comes from. Take any learnings to use it to make us better. And I will tell you, though, that those types of creators or influencers who just repeat hypey negative spin without any factual backing, it does fuel us to keep leveling up our commitment and more and more research and more and more clinical rigor. even if it's not appreciated by the average consumer, even if it is not something that we will get rewarded for for years, because it takes so much time to scope these trials and conduct them and then interpret them and then to be published.

44:04My gosh, it can be another 18 to 24 months, but we still do it, right? Because we're the best, we're the premium product. People pay to have like true quality, true bodies of research. And so it is our, in my opinion, and it's our requirement. Maybe other companies don't view it as a requirement, but being the leader in the space, we've got another 20 million committed to research over the next three years. We spent 10 million over the last few years, and it just continues to inform more product innovation, more product improvements, and more proof of what our product does. So you just, you know, you have to focus on your customer and focus on the facts and be very good at separating signal from noise and making sure the team is able to do the same.

44:49Ryan Hawk:Did you see how Sam Altman replied to the Anthropic ads? Did you see this? What do you think of that? Because he seemed to me, not trying to lead the witness, but it felt very defensive. And I agree, I love CEOs going direct like that. I think that's good. I think that's one of the things you're really, really good at. But you could have gotten really defensive when that stuff came out and people are trying to hate on you. You didn't do any of that. And I saw Sam and I'm like, this guy's a really, really smart guy. He's obviously building something that's changing the world. And yet it seems very defensive of how he responded to Anthropics ads and all that stuff.

45:24You know what I think of in those moments is being a leader of big companies is incredibly complex.

45:33Ryan Hawk:Yeah. And I am too effing busy to judge somebody's PR approach or their, like, leave that to the experts, right? There are experts in comms and PR. I love hearing their reads and teardowns on these things. But I'm like in the arena, right? I'm making the stuff. I'm doing these things. And so I can appreciate both the beauty and the brilliance of those ads. Baller, right, in some ways. Yeah. I can appreciate the frustration all around, including from the companies, that is like, but that's not it. That's not what we are. That's not how we're doing it. And eventually it's like, you got to focus on what matters, building your product, making it excellent, shipping, taste, design, quality, and bigger than the noise.

46:25And yeah, if you're a leader, and especially if you're in technology oriented companies, you probably need to be very, very online and very engaged in these matters. And sure, there's probably a way to be more brief, more witty, more humor oriented, but we're all also humans and you have a lot of employees and customers who depend on you. Those moments will pass in a year. Nobody's going to think about it, right? You're just

46:54Ryan Hawk:less than that. Yeah. Yeah. You just, you build your thing. And I have a lot of heart for brilliant marketers who do great ads and who are controversial. And I have a lot of heart for leaders who are trying to shape very polarizing market-making companies. And I hope those leaders don't get too caught up in themselves or their ego or what they think they have to do to please other people more than they focus on just building good shit and getting it out in the world. That is the greatest answer to racism is just doing your thing. And it's really dangerous as a leader to get distracted with the social media chatter.

47:40It's real. We live our lives online, on X, on IG, right? It's real. It matters that you're aware of how people get their information and how they're feeling and what they're reacting to. I think it would be irresponsible to not pay attention, but there's also a dark side of getting distracted by it. And the answer is to build.

47:59Ryan Hawk:Love it. One more question, Kat, before we run. I'm curious. Let's fast forward one year, and you can make this a personal or professional question. It's up to you. You, your husband, you're hanging out, and you're popping bottles, champagne. You're celebrating. I was like, that doesn't even sound like us, but okay. I know. Go with me for the question, okay? He rose across oceans and runs 100-mile races. I know. I know. Okay. Anyway, go with me. Very few bottles being caught. You are celebrating with something. This is called the champagne question, so you got to go. Okay. All right. We're toasting our AG1 or our AGZ.

48:36Got it. Got it. Exactly.

48:37Ryan Hawk:You're celebrating. It's one year from today. Yeah. What are we celebrating? One year from today, we are definitely celebrating my husband and his continued circumnavigation. around the globe. So he is circumnavigating the globe with only human power. So he rode across the Atlantic Ocean in a tiny little rowboat. He rode across the Caribbean in the tiny little rowboat, almost died, had to get rescued. So now he's finishing that in a few weeks. And by next year, he will have completed the first half of his Pacific row. So you cycle the continent, you row the oceans. And so a year from now, for our family, truly that will be the most special thing to celebrate.

49:23And then every year, we have our 10-year wedding anniversary coming up this year. We got married at Burning Man. We're bringing the kids to Burning Man for the first time. And that may be a continual thing depending on how they handle lay elements. So we'll probably be celebrating there as a family something really special and unique that's unique to our family, that inspires our kids, that inspires me, that we get to be a tiny part of and supporting and enabling.

49:51Ryan Hawk:So that would be the thing. You row in an ocean? Not me. Not you. He does. What is that boat like? It's like 19 feet. And he's just rowing by himself? He's got a rowing partner. So he has rowed with different partners. He cycles with different buddies. It's very cool. He has come to appreciate it's not the race or the time. It's about the journey and who you row with and who you. cycle with. So he's got a killer rowing partner who will finish rowing the Caribbean with him and who will likely row the Pacific with him and a dear friend who's cycled the US with him and hopefully will cycle Australia with him once he makes that connection.

50:32And yeah.

50:34Ryan Hawk:You ever do it? You ever get in the boat or get on the bike? That's not your thing? Nope. When we first met and he rowed his first ocean, he rowed across the Atlantic just two months after we met and we got closer through the row, I really wanted to do it. I mean, I got in the boat with him off the coast of La Gomera, which is off the coast of like Morocco and Spain. That's where the row started to row across the Atlantic and then down to Antigua. It took him 45 days. And I was in the boat and I'm like, this is rad. I could do this. But that was December of 2015. And since then we have a couple of kids and have had a lot of life.

51:11And so unfortunately, given that it can be dangerous, both cycling across continents, which is to me is more dangerous than rowing the oceans because there's a lot more vehicles and interaction on a road crossing a continent than, you know, you row the ocean, you don't see very much. So now that we have a family, those little inklings of, well, I could do this. I'd love to do it with you are probably not in the cards.

51:37Ryan Hawk:Isn't that a great though story about life and And that's really what it's all about is it's, yes, the thing he's doing is amazing, but really what it's about is who. It's who we are doing these things with. It's the person you become as a result of doing the thing with the people you do it with. That's a beautiful metaphor for life in general. It absolutely is. I mean, when he rode the Atlantic, it was a race. And he and his rowing partner set the U.S. record for crossing the Atlantic as a pair. And it was speed, right? Like time, speed. And when he rode the Caribbean and he had to be rescued, which they were also trying to just like get after it.

52:15And it was really tough for he and his rowing partner to be rescued, to be in such a dangerous situation. And I saw this reset in him because that weekend after he got rescued, he, you know, he reflected. He's like, why am I doing this? I have two kids. This is too dangerous. I shouldn't be doing this. and he made some joke about taking up golf or something. Like you're never gonna take up golf. But we talked about the why and the evolving why. And this is his why, this type of global pursuit. Yeah, you have kids, certainly it's a little scarier and a little more sad to think of something happening that could impair that family unit, but it's also who he is.

52:56It's also what drives him. It is who I married. I knew it from the beginning and it's inspiring for the kids And it makes him a better person when he's here, when he has that pursuit, when he has that thing he's training for. And so it was really cool to see him be kind of devastated and taken down by the events and then reground in his why to keep going. And they did. Somebody on this little tiny island where they wrecked and got rescued gave them an anchor because their anchor had to be cut, gave them an anchor. And they were able to continue rowing, but appreciating the journey even more, appreciating each other.

53:32even more. And I felt even more in support of him as a result. And it sounds like a scary thing, and it is, but the boats are incredible. I trust his training. And again, cycling across a continent to me is much more dangerous. So yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful seeing him reground, and it's about the journey and who I do it with, seeing him reground. And this is something I do for my family and the kids to be a fulfilled person with pursuits, but sharing that with my kids. And it's incredible. And he's one of these people too. He doesn't talk about it a lot. He's not famous for it. He doesn't do big keynotes.

54:14He doesn't have a book. This is just his hobby. He's an adventure by day. And so it's really very intimate and special. And if he completes it, and I believe he will over time, he'll be only the fourth person to have ever done it in the world. And that's really cool. Like that's special to be able to enable something so unique.

54:34Ryan Hawk:Wow. I thought you were going to say like some revenue target and I get such a better answer. I'm really glad. We're already doing the things, you know, we've launched AGZ, we're in retail, we have more retail launches, we have more human trials coming out. That's all going to continue. That's all going to continue. And I truly, I am so proud and I will be so proud of all these things we're doing as a company. But that special family season that we're in is far bigger. Yeah. Well, it speaks to your priorities. I love it. Or the priority, right? That's a singular word. And I think that's really cool.

55:11Ryan Hawk:It's not like you're not going to work like crazy to do a great job as the leader of your company. I love it. Kat, where would you send people to learn more about you and the company online? DrinkAG1.com. Go to drinkAG1.com slash science and learn all about our research and science, like the real deal, not the theory hype out there. And, you know, on X, DrinkAG1, I'm Cat Cole ATL. I don't post the ton. I'm trying to be better at it because it is both my responsibility as a leader of the brand, but also something I enjoy doing and making more time to connect with people online. so people know they have a relationship and an understanding of the people in the company, not just the brand.

55:52So, you know, hit me up on X or IG or LinkedIn or any of those, I'm there.

55:58Ryan Hawk:Love it, love it. Well, thanks again for being here. I would love, I mean, we're going to continue our dialogue. Maybe we'll shrink the gap between the times we talk, but this was awesome. I really, really appreciate it. Look forward to continue talking as we go. Awesome, likewise.

56:14Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with one of my favorites, Kat Cole, a few takeaways from my notes, the must have attributes in a leader. She wants on her team, courage and confidence mixed equally with curiosity and humility. Need an equal balance of all four. How does she work to find if they have those? She asks about a very challenging time in a recent role and listens to them honestly reflect on when mistakes were made.

56:52Ryan Hawk:Why? What did they learn from them? And then keep drilling down. I think that's what Kat is really good at, is asking great initial questions, listening, and asking even better follow-up questions. In fact, she would be an awesome podcast host if she ever chose to do that. And then Kat got the job at AG1 because the founder and CEO heard her on a few podcasts. As my friend and mentor Rex Caswell told me years ago, you are interviewing for your next job every single day. You never know who's watching or listening. Show up with the intention to add value to others' lives, whether it's your Monday morning team meeting or on a giant podcast.

57:36Ryan Hawk:Regardless, you are interviewing for your next job every single day. And then I loved her closing answer to the champagne question. She's the CEO of a billion-dollar company, and her first thought was about the incredible feat that her husband is striving to accomplish and celebrating as a family. And then the realization that of all these big things we are trying to do, it's about the person you become while striving for the big thing and it's about the people we choose to do them with. I love it. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Kat Cole.

58:20Ryan Hawk:I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts. You subscribe to the show and you rate it hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review by doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.