693: Tina Seelig - Fortune vs. Luck, The Power of Curiosity, Why Your Words Change Lives, Failure Résumés, Thank You Notes, and Creating Luck Through Relationships, Observation, & Daily Action

24:02How can I help? Amazing things happen. People look around at others who get ahead and they think, what did they do? Why are they so lucky? But if you look behind the scenes, you will see what they did. There are all these sort of things that are invisible. And what I'm trying to do is pull back the curtain and say, look what these people did. It might've been that they helped someone with a problem and like, wow, I really trust this person. I'm gonna put them in a bigger role. or they showed appreciation, right? They said, thank you when someone did something. Now, maybe that sounds quaint, but most people don't do that.

24:39And it's these little things that set you apart that set the stage for luckier things to happen.

24:46Ryan Hawk:You called Robert Sapolsky. This guy writes a book that, I don't know, argues against kind of what you believe, what you think. And you just said, I'm just gonna call him, right? Talk about like making it happen. Pick up the phone, go see him. Can you tell me that story? Yeah. So, well, Rapsabalde, he's a super famous guy. He's written all these books. He's a very, very famous primatologist and has, you know, spends a lot of time out with the baboons looking at their behavior. And he wrote a book called Determined, basically arguing that there's no such thing as free will. And I thought that's just crazy.

25:16If I think there's no such thing as free will, then like, I just think everything is predetermined and there's no such thing as I can't create my own luck.

25:23Ryan Hawk:I don't know his work that well, but that seems, I want to be respectful. not fun. I don't know. Can you describe the backstory of that work? Because I don't understand. The idea that I live and I don't have agency over my life seems insane to me. Yeah. Apparently, when he was a teenager, he woke up one day and said, oh, everything is predetermined. And so he's been sort of working with this framework that starting from the moment you were conceived, everything is just playing out based on your genetics and your, you know, the things that happen to you. But I beg to differ. I think we do have choices and our choices determine what happens.

26:04Now, we had a very long conversation and it was really interesting. And so I ultimately conceded that there are some constraints, right? I'm not going to become a world famous basketball player, right? I'm not tall enough. I'm not big enough and strong enough to go be a football player. But within this very large, large frame, I have lots and lots of choices. And in fact, you know, one of my favorite quotes is from the famous psychologist Viktor Frankl, who says, you know, between stimulus and response is a choice. And that's the point. What I'm really focused on is what happens in that choice.

26:38What are the things we get to decide every single day that point us closer and closer to the directions we want to go.

26:45Ryan Hawk:How does thinking that way make you better as a teacher, make you better as a leader? It makes you better because A, you are much more open to what's happening in a classroom. I compare being a teacher to surfing because you're constantly responding to what's happening and you can be very nimble. And so it makes you a better leader. It makes you a better teacher, right? The world is changing. The people in the room are changing. In fact, I've been teaching for 27 years now. And you could say, wow, doesn't that get boring? But not at all. Because every year you have new students, you have a new context, and it's fresh every single year.

27:34Think about how different the world is now than it was a few years ago. We have so many different issues that we need to think about, problems we get to solve. Students come in with very different backgrounds. And so if you have this nimbleness and you're paying attention and you're curious, you can respond in a very different and fresh and appropriate way to every one of these different situations.

27:58Ryan Hawk:What do you like best about teaching? Oh my gosh, I love teaching. The students are so wonderful. I learn something new from them every single day. And it is just an incredible honor to be able to influence them at this time in their life. Now, let me tell you a story. When I was a student way back in the Stone Ages, I was studying neuroscience. And I had a professor who read one of my papers. And at the top, he wrote, Tina, you think like a scientist. At that moment, I was a sophomore in college. I became a scientist. It was as if every cell in my body changed in that moment when he gave me that encouragement.

28:48I realized that I have that power with my students too. I have that power to say something or do something or encourage them to do something or reframe a situation that they may be struggling with that allows them to see the possibilities they might not have seen before. Now, it's funny, that story is actually more interesting because 20 years later, after I got this comment from my professor, 20 years later, I started teaching at Stanford. And I wrote this professor a thank you note 20 years later. I wrote the letter saying, thank you so much for being such an inspiring teacher. Look what's happened.

29:30I got my PhD in neuroscience and now I'm teaching at Stanford and I'm trying to embody the same sort of skills that you demonstrated for me. Now, I didn't hear from him and I actually didn't know if he got my letter, even if he was still alive. But 20 years later, last year, I got an email from his granddaughter. And she said, my grandfather just died at 95 years old. And at his funeral, my father read an excerpt of your letter. It's a reminder that showing appreciation not only is just a nice to have. This was so powerful that this letter of appreciation was moved through two different generations.

30:22And I think not only was he an amazing teacher teaching me how to inspire my students, but reminding me the power of showing appreciation for those people who have done something meaningful for you.

30:35Ryan Hawk:When we're in influential and leadership roles, sometimes this is where humility can actually hurt somebody because they don't think of the weight and the power of their words. That's why I wanted to be in this leadership world and focus on it and help others become better as leaders. It's because there's so much power that you can then lift others up simply by what you say. This teacher changed your life and not only changed your life, but changed tons and tons of other people's lives because of what he said to you because now you have gone on to be a leader. You've gone on to teach lots of people and impacted them.

31:14Ryan Hawk:So the ripple effect is far and wide because that teacher was wise enough and used his power for good. And that's the beauty of leadership. That's the beauty of lifting others up. And that's our responsibility. Like how cool, like how awesome of a responsibility is it that we get as leaders that we can make that type of an impact. But you got to do it though. You see it. Oh, there's something in Tina. There's something about her. You're a scientist. I see it in you. Those are great reminders for all of us as leaders to understand the weight of our words and then to use that power for greatness in the world.

31:52Right. And it's not just your words. It's also your actions. You know, things happen and people see what you do. And, you know, I run a leadership program now at Stanford. And I know that one of the most important lessons is how I lead. You know, I had a student who did something last week that was pretty unfortunate. They made a decision that was a bad decision. And my initial reaction was, wow, they need to get punished. This was a bad decision with a bad outcome. And I'm really mad. And I'm going to do something. But I took the time to calm down. And when I met with the student, I said, help me understand what happened.

32:33Tell me. Tell me more. What set the stage for this? And once I learned what was going on, I could be very supportive and empathetic because the student had been going through a very difficult time and was not their best self. And I realized if I had punished them, it would have been a very, very bad outcome for everyone. But not only did this student get to see my behavior, they got to see what it looks like to treat someone that way. And the rest of the community gets to see what it looks like to treat someone with empathy and humility and open-mindedness and curiosity.

33:18Ryan Hawk:And even though in times when it's difficult to do it, I mean, we live in a world where there's a lot of conflict. And one of the things that I know and that I write about is the importance of conflict resolution to be luckier. Because if you wake up in the morning and you are in the middle, like the first thing you think about is a conflict you have with someone. And if that is that conversation that you're having in your brain all day long is an enormous distraction, it sucks the energy out. And if you can resolve that and especially resolve it in a way that you're proud of, all of a sudden you're taller, you're lighter, you're more open to more positive opportunities.

34:03Ryan Hawk:Another person you've helped, I read about this in the acknowledgments, Oliver Greenwald. Ha ha ha, yes. He watched your TED Talk. He reaches out to you. I love stories like this. What happened with Oliver Greenwald? Oh, I love Oliver. He's like one of my favorite people on the planet. He sent me an email about a year and a half ago. He said, I saw your TED Talk on luck and it really resonated with me. I do all of these things. I want to become a luck coach. And could I have just a few minutes of your time to talk about what I'm doing? So I actually thought about it for a little bit because I had just started writing my book on luck.

34:39And I wanted to figure out what sort of stance I wanted to have with him about this. And I was super busy. And I get lots of emails for people who want to, you know, a few minutes of my time. But I decided, you know, I read his email again. And I thought, you know what, let me take the call. So I took the call with Oliver. He was super kind. He had lots of good ideas. And I gave him my feedback. But he didn't stop there, right? He sent me a thank you note, right? He did the right thing. He sent me a thank you note. Thank you so much for your time. But he took it to the next step. He said, I understand you're writing this book on luck.

35:14If I can be helpful in any way, please let me know. In fact, here's a list of 10 ways that I might be able to help you with your book. Nothing on his list was exactly what I wanted, but I was so taken with his initiative and fortunate for him, the timing was perfect. I said, hey, Oliver, do you wanna be the research assistant for my book? I have never had a research assistant for any of my books, but I thought this could be helpful. And so I hired him. It was great. I would give him different examples of things I was working on and ask him to source different research that either supported or didn't support what I was doing so that I could bake that into the examples.

35:59He was great. He's now launched his coaching, luck coaching business and I'm a big supporter of his.

36:05Ryan Hawk:He coaches people how to get luckier? Yeah, he's a luck coach. I've never heard of a luck coach before. I know, but isn't that a great idea? I love it. I'm a big fan of luck. I try to make it happen as much as possible. So I'd be curious to say, it's like, hey, I just hired a luck coach. I'm getting luckier. But it's probably more of just kind of a how to go out and live life coach, but maybe it's just an interesting marketing tool. I don't know. I don't know. You know what? I'm doing a workshop that I'm doing a prototype, actually next couple of weeks, a luck makeover workshop, just for free for people.

36:39I've got about - Luck makeover workshop. A luck makeover where we're going to talk about all the levers you have at your disposal to be luckier. And then we're going to meet a week later and see what happened to people.

36:48Ryan Hawk:I bet that's an enjoyable group of people to be around. I don't know. I'm going to do it starting next week. But if it's successful, I'll keep doing it. Okay. I might want to join it too. Okay. Is this in person or online? It's going to be online. Okay. All right. Even easier then. Okay. I love this idea. Metaphors can bring things to life. And I think the core idea of this book is built on this metaphor. The fact that luck is not necessarily like this lightning strike. It's not isolated or dramatic, but it's this wind. It's a wind that blows constantly. And you got to build a sail. The sale is made up of these tiny behaviors, right, to catch the winds of luck.

37:29Ryan Hawk:Walk me through this metaphor of it's, we think, oh, you just, boom, you just got lucky. Like, that's not actually how it works. It's more about building the sale. Exactly. So this framework has come together over the last number of years. The idea is that opportunities to be lucky are ubiquitous. They're like the wind. They're blowing constantly, sometimes, you know, strongly, sometimes weakly. They're very powerful. but they're invisible and you're not going to see them. You're not going to catch them unless you have a tool to do so, like a sail. So the framework is that you need a sail to catch the winds of luck.

38:05And so you start with building your ship. That's the internal work you have to do. You then have to recruit your crew. That's how do you engage other people in your world. And three, how do you hoist the sail? Those are the things you do every single day to essentially get closer and closer to your goals, right? How do you trim that sail in a way to catch the lucky opportunities around you? Now, it's actually much more nuanced than this because if luck is like the wind, there are lots of ways to respond, right? I could stay inside. I don't have to get in my ship. I can stay inside and shut the shutters and not pay attention.

38:42I can be a wind vane just looking at it, not doing anything. I could be a hot air balloon, letting the winds of luck sort of take me where they will with very little agency. I can be a windmill, catching the luck very efficiently in a very local environment, like in a job, on a team, you know, something very local. Or I can get on my sailboat and seek out those opportunities. And there are different times in our life where we want to play these different roles. There might be a time when you go, I really want to be a leaf in the wind. I want to be a hot air balloon and see where the winds take me.

39:21Another time you go, I need to be a windmill right now. Like I'm in this job. I'm going to focus on being the best I can in this location. And then there are other times, you know, maybe you're starting a company. Maybe you're doing something where you're like, I don't know where the opportunities are. I'm going to get on the sailboat and I need to really seek out where they are.

39:41Ryan Hawk:Let's get practical. and let's specifically think about potentially a cynic. Tina, you don't understand. I've been dealt a bad hand. And by the way, that's true. Like sometimes there are people who are just, they're dealt a lot of bad luck, illnesses, family members, and some of that would be considered fortune, I realize. But let's say just that we have a cynic, someone who thinks they're unlucky, says the thing, well, with my luck, and then they fill in the blank with something bad. What are some tangible, some tactical, practical things that that person could do to change that, to say, you know what, Tina, with my luck, and then they fell in the blank with something good.

40:19This is super important, Ryan. This is super important because, yes, there are people who are incredibly unfortunate. I mean, we have racism. People are poor. People are in dysfunctional families. I mean, let's be serious here. There are people who are in very, very unfortunate circumstances. It might be a war zone. And sure, I mean, there are some situations that feel totally untenable if somebody has a very terrible illness. And honestly, we're all going to die. So there is an end game. So within this context, what can you do? I have been working for the last 10 years, working with a group called The Last Mile at San Quentin State Prison, where they teach entrepreneurship and coding skills to actually men and women in other prisons to help them so that when they get out of prison, they will be able to have a gainful employment.

41:17These are folks who, in most cases, have been extremely unfortunate circumstances in their lives, right? They've been born into poverty. They've had to join gangs to protect themselves. They've made a lot of bad choices based on their circumstances. Even in prison, where they might be there for 20 years, these people I've worked with have made the choice to turn their life around. They have decided, okay, I'm going to be on my best behavior. I'm not going to join a gang here. I'm going to keep learning. I'm going to get a new degree. I'm going to participate in the last mile. And they get out and have changed their life.

41:57we see lots of examples of people who are able to escape really bad circumstances. It doesn't mean it's easy. We really need to acknowledge that. That doesn't mean it's easy. But it doesn't mean it's impossible. You know, I often think about the fact that if I ended up with nothing, like if I ended up right now with nothing in my life, what would I do? I was like, I would go be a barista. and I would work at Starbucks and I would work my way up in the organization. I often think about like, where would I start if I had nothing? And what skills could I leverage? What building do I want to get the keys to in order to make my life better?

42:40Ryan Hawk:So what are some of the tangible, practical things that people could do if, let's just say, not someone who's in prison or a life like that, but maybe just as a combination of the wrong attitude as well as is just kind of existing, but not taking control? What are some things they could do to be more lucky? Okay, so let's just talk about building your ship. This comes from, you know, if you ask people, oh, talking about luck, they often say, oh, yes, yes, yes, fortune favors a prepared mind, right? This happens, you know, I get this all the time. Fortune, oh yes, fortune favors a prepared mind.

43:15I go like, okay, what is prepared mind? Like, what does that mean? To me, that is your ship. That is the internal work you need to do. So let's talk about the first thing is understanding your core values. If you don't have your core values straight, you, it's like your ship has no ballast. It has no keel. It has nothing underneath. And you're going to get tipped over. That wind comes and you're just going to capsize. All you need to do is read the newspaper to see the stories of people who do not have their values straight, who end up in prison because they've ended up on a slippery slope of making decisions that were not correct.

43:53I can share a story. When I got out of graduate school, I was asked to misrepresent myself by a company that I was working for, to misrepresent myself at a conference, to tell them I was Tina Selig from Stanford, not Tina Selig from this company, so I could essentially be a spy. And I got caught. And afterwards I said, what the heck happened? I'm so unlucky. Well, I was unlucky because I hadn't taken a minute to think that what I was being asked to do was unethical. And so we need to, from the time we're young, think about what our core values are and stick with them. And when we're asked to do something, to question it.

44:33And if someone is unrelenting to say, I'm sorry, I can't be here. I need to go somewhere else. That's one example. Also, I mean, there's so many others. There's like understanding the story you tell about who you are in the world, because that story shapes the opportunities you see. It's understanding your risk profile and being willing to stretch in different ways. And also then, you know, knowing where you want to go, putting together in your mind some sense of what your objectives are. Because if you don't know where you want to go, you don't know where to sort of point your sailboat. Yes.

45:05Ryan Hawk:You also encourage people to keep a failure resume, like an inventory of your mistakes and setbacks and things you've learned from that. Tell me more about this failure resume. Yeah, super important. I keep mine up to date. And honestly, you know, it's a very long list. Is it? Yes, of course. Of course. Every single day I'm making mistakes. I'm like everyone else. You know, I'm sure maybe you walked the first time you tried. I certainly didn't or rode a bicycle or did complex math. We take on difficult things and we know that with trial and error, we are going to get better. Sort of a growth mindset.

45:41But we make mistakes along the way. And if you're willing to capture what you did wrong, like what didn't work and what you're going to do differently next time, you propel yourself forward as opposed to perseverating about the thing. I mean, I used to, when I was younger, beat myself up again and again and again. Oh, I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. Why did I do that? Kicking myself. Now it's like, oh, that didn't work. I put my foot in my mouth or I went too quickly or I said something I shouldn't have said. It's like, all right, acknowledge it and then move on. And you're willing then to like move on to the next chapter.

46:25I always tell my students, one of my favorite quotes is, it's all good in the end. If it's not good, it's not the end. We're always in the middle of the story and it's up to each of us to figure out what the next chapter is gonna be.

46:37Ryan Hawk:Well, just this idea of documenting your days, both the things that happen that are good and you're grateful for, as well as the things that are not and what you learn from them so that you'll be in a better position the next time. I think there's a lot of power and just, it doesn't have to even be that a huge investment of time, but if you spent five, 10, 15 minutes at the end of every day documenting maybe some of your failures and or mistakes, as well as key learnings and things you'll do next time, and you stack day after day after day of doing that, again, I like your chances of becoming a luckier person.

47:13Ryan Hawk:You can make that happen. You can do that. It's easy, but, and there's something else really important. So yes, you can, at the end of every day, think, okay, what did I do that I'm really proud of? What are things I want to do differently? What am I grateful for? And to whom should I show appreciation? I have a habit that I have developed over the last decade of sending thank you notes at the end of every day. Every day? Every day. Wow. And honestly, it takes a whole five or 10 minutes. I look at my calendar, I scan it, and I go, oh, Ryan, we had a great conversation. I'm so appreciative that, you know, that I was on this podcast.

47:55You will surely get an email from me tonight saying, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. Please let me know how I can be helpful to you. It's just like three or four sentences. But every single day sending thank you notes, you lend the day, not just feeling grateful for the opportunities you had, but you also have closed that loop. And honestly, Ryan, can I ask you, how many people send you a thank you note after they've been interviewed by you?

48:21Ryan Hawk:um what percentage of people more is it's actually started more and more of this has happened over the last couple of years than in the earlier days i don't know it's less than 50 less than probably like a third at most at most so that that's great that's great it's that much i think for most situations yeah it might be less about it yeah does that change your dynamic with that person if they've sent a thank you note oh for sure yeah yeah i mean i'm i'm more grateful for them. It deepens the relationship. It goes beyond what some view is the transactional nature of this thing, which is not this endeavor, this whole, if I can go on forever about it, but this whole purpose of me doing this is to build transformational relationships with incredible people so that we could hopefully be friends for life.

49:08Ryan Hawk:That's my goal. That doesn't happen all the time. But when I started learning about you and all the great things you've done, my intention coming into this, just so you know, not to make it weird, Tina, was I hope Tina could become a friend for life. And hopefully this is the start of that. This is the first hour of that friendship because why else do it? Relationships are what make the world go round. With the Harvard study, what does it mean to live a great life? It's love, full stop. And so anyway, I could go on for it, but that's what this is about. Exactly. So that's a really good point. No, but I really appreciate that.

49:43And you know what? We may become new best friends, but it's not going to happen unless we actually cultivate that. And most people drop the ball. Drop the ball. In fact, another thing that I do that has become a habit is if you spend time with a friend who you really want to have in your life, you never end the dinner, the lunch, the walk without making another date. You get the next date on the calendar like, wow, this was so great. When should we do it again? And so you say, It might be three months. I don't know. It might be same time next year. It might be next week. It might be in a month.

50:23It doesn't matter what it is, but getting it on the calendar so you don't drop the ball.

50:30Ryan Hawk:Yeah. Another version of this gratitude, Tina, I'm glad you brought this up. The instant you are thinking something positive about somebody, the instant, tell them, text them, email them, call them. If you're in person, tell them directly and be very, very specific. I just did this last night. I sent kind of a text that was this big, you know, a solid paragraph to a person that I had just seen. And I had not seen him in a while. And I tried to be very specific about why I appreciated him and how he showed up and all this stuff. And he just wrote me back. This made my day. This made my day. Well, it made my day too, you know?

51:04Ryan Hawk:And so the instant you're thinking something positive about somebody, tell them right now. Don't wait. Write the letter. Send the text. Give them a call. All that stuff. And if you just, you get in this habit of doing it more and more and more, and what does it do? It enriches your relationships, which then enriches your life. And so I don't know if that has anything to do with luck. Oh, I think you're absolutely right. Like, you know, when you say to someone, I love that sweater on you or your eyes are bright and shiny. I love, you know, I, I spent a lot of day with, with young people. And when someone comes to my office and I say, oh my gosh, you have such a fabulous smile.

51:40Ryan Hawk:Yeah. I am never making it up. I am like, it's something real. You see them light up in a way that they have been seen. And if you're seeing something positive, say it. It changes the whole dynamic when people feel seen. So I'm sure that this is one of your superpowers of being lucky is doing this. And I'm so glad that you shared that example. One more question. So Tina, it's a year from now, okay? And you're surrounded by the people that you love. and you guys are all popping bottles and spraying it all over each other's faces, okay? I have no idea if you do that or not, but just go with me, okay?

52:20Ryan Hawk:You're popping bottles, you're celebrating. It's one year from now, you're with everybody you love. What are you celebrating? Oh, that is super easy. I have a brand new grandbaby and she will be one year old a year from now. And I can tell you, she's actually just three months old right now, but she just learned how to turn over and she looks so proud of herself. And I can't wait to see who she is and where she is in one year. Oh, that's so cool. I love it. I love it so much. Book is called What I Wish I Knew About Luck, A Crash Course on Turning Aspirations into Achievements. It is so well-written.

52:59Ryan Hawk:It's fun, great storytelling, great people and very practical. You can do this stuff like right now to change your life for the better. So I highly, highly recommend people read it. Tina, this was awesome. I meant it when I said it earlier. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. It would be my joy.

53:21Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Tina Selig. A few takeaways from my notes. Keep a failure resume. Document your biggest mistakes, what you learned, and what you will do differently moving forward. Tina argues it's one of the fastest ways to build the resilience that luck requires. Then, hey, send a thank you note today. Specific, genuine, unprompted. Gratitude creates a current of goodwill that flows back. Sometimes, many years later, from directions you never expected, send at least one thank you note today.

54:16Ryan Hawk:And then know the difference between fortune and luck. Fortune is what happens to you. Luck requires your action. Most people are waiting for fortune and calling it bad luck. Be a person of action. Increase your surface area for luck by going out there and getting after it. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Tina Selig. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, subscribe to the show, rate it, hopefully five stars, write a thoughtful review by doing all of that.

55:01Ryan Hawk:You are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.