696: Dr. Zeke Emanuel - The Six Rules for Health & Longevity, The Harvard Study on Happiness, The Truth About Biohacking, Social Connection, and How to Avoid Being a Schmuck

25:31Don't drink alone. Make it a social engagement. Take your vaccines. RFK Jr. is just wrong. And let me circle back. You know, there are four vaccines, all of which reduce your risk of cognitive impairment and dementia. You better take those four vaccines. You know, the shingles vaccine, the pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine, the theriot, pertussis, tetanus vaccine, and the flu vaccine. You take those four to reduce your chance of mental decline. Okay. And then I talk about, you know, funny things. So when I was writing the book, I thought, you know, base jumping has to be the stupidest thing people can do, right?

26:06That is the schmuckiest move there is. And I looked up the data and, you know, one in 2 ,700 jumps, someone dies. And most base jumpers think they're going to die base jumping. I said, that's pretty stupid. And then I looked up climbing Mount Everest, which people pay$150 ,000 to do. And I'm like, the chance of dying up there for all comers, including the experts, is one in a hundred. That is, whoa, really dumb. And the chance if you're over 59, which I am, one in 25.

26:37Ryan Hawk:I said, schmuck. We were just in New Zealand and we were riding bikes in Queenstown and looked over the horizon and there was a hot air balloon. I said to my wife, I said, we ought to do that tomorrow morning, sunrise, hot air balloon. And she says, is that a schmuck move? So, you know, what do I do? I look it up. What's the chances? Turns out not a schmuck move at all. One in a million liftoffs, there's a mortality. So it's like, you know, that's the equivalent of riding my Vespa motor scooter in Washington, D.C. So wait, how do you define a schmuck move? Because some of the stuff that maybe - It's more risky than driving.

27:13A lot more. Oh, okay. So more risky because some of the stuff it's like, hey, Zeke, I want to live a little bit, man. That's fine. I think that's absolutely the right attitude. I'm a risky guy. Everyone will tell you I'm a risk. I take risks. I'm not shy about that. There are some things I won't do because I'm not going to be that pleasurable. And there are some things I really like to do because, and they're somewhat risky and I'm willing to do it. And, you know, that's great. Probably the most risky thing I do. We don't drive very much. We've had a car for about 16, 18 months. It's got about 4 ,600 miles on it.

27:47I basically say, I got a car to drive my bike out to the country so I can ride my bike. I ride bikes and I like to ride fast, 17, 20 miles an hour at my age. And, you know, about every year, every other year, I have a kind of serious accident. And about two years ago, I hit a rock hidden under leaves. It was in November, right under leaves and broke the non-displaced fracture, fractured my pelvis, broke some ligaments in my shoulder. and I was out of commission for about four months. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife says, well, you know, forget this dying by dementia. You're going to die in an accident.

28:25But I enjoy that. And I know that, you know, I got to be careful, but there are serious risks here. And everyone I know who's a serious biker has had some serious accidents. Is it worth it to me? Absolutely. And so your point is, you know, live it up at some times. Yeah. You want to go bungee jumping? God bless you. You know, and not for me. I like whitewater rafting. There are a lot of things I do that, you know, are reasonable risks, but great.

28:53Ryan Hawk:Yeah, with you. Okay, talk to people. That's number two. So, and I know this is a thing with your mom and your dad had different versions of that, which you write about, but talk about why talk to people is one of these simple rules. Well, the best data comes from something called the Harvard Adult Development Study. Started in the late 30s. John Kennedy was part of the group. The legendary Washington Post editor, Ben Bradley, was part of the group. And they wanted to figure out what makes people healthy and happy over a lifetime. So they enrolled a bunch of Harvard sophomores. And then they combined it with kids, less privileged kids from inner city Boston and follow them.

29:34And they've been following them for 85 years. and turns out close friends and being married, healthiest, longest lived and happiest. There's been probably studies of 3 million people worldwide about loneliness, friendship, the number of close friends you have, the number of times you talk to them and things like that to quantify how many you have and the quality of those relationships. And those people who have more friends, see them more, live longer, have fewer health problems. So as someone pointed out, you know, not having friends or having zero warm, close friends, I think is the way the study went, is equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

30:17Gives you an indication of how bad it is for you. And it's not just psychological, it's physical. It's illnesses. Talking to someone, doing social interaction like we're doing, you know, decreases your stress level. You know, your hypothalamus pituitary adrenal cortex down-regulates your cortisol, the stress hormone. So there's physical manifestations of actually interacting with people and friends. And we could go on and on about the genes that get turned on and off and things like that. But in general, talking and being with people, sharing with your close friends, super important to your health, physical, biological health.

30:54Ryan Hawk:I mean, the feeling I get, just to make this a little personal, and I know this is going to happen today. I'm going to go home for lunch and eat lunch with my wife. and I'm going to be, and she'll see it on top of the world. Because I'll say, I just had this great talk with Zeke and she knows I've been preparing for this for a while. And it literally physically changes how I enter a space from having a deep long form conversation with a thoughtful, competent person. So that's one thing. And I'm more of an introverted person. I enjoy like time, my wife knows this too. I enjoy time to myself, to recharge, to think, to write, to watch TV, whatever, and work out.

31:31Ryan Hawk:But those nights when we go out with friends or hang out with friends or celebrate something, man, that's the juice. Like, that's the juice. We just did it this weekend. You know, that's the juice of life. It was swimming, like have fun, see our kids play with other kids and the kids of our friends. And I feel on top of the world after those moments, too. And so I think this one of like being with people, literally bumping shoulders, having conversations with somebody who's wiser than you, all these things. I think that's really like the whole game of life right there. That's why it's where it is in the book.

32:00because it is, as you point out, it's the most important thing you do in your life. Almost all the wellness books besides mine, you know, emphasize eating, exercise, and sleeping. All important, don't get me wrong, but they're not the most important wellness thing you can do. The most important wellness thing you can do is really about friendships and about social interactions. You know, I live in Washington, D.C., which has the second highest Ethiopian population in the world after Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, and almost all the cab drivers and Uber drivers are Ethiopians. You get in, I ask the person, where are you from?

32:39And he says, I'm from Ethiopia. And I said, oh, I've been to Ethiopia five times. And I said, where in Ethiopia are you? Which tribe are you? And suddenly we have a conversation just for the length of the ride. and they are, someone's been to my country, someone knows, you know, Gondar or wherever, or been to the churches at Lalibela and they are so thrilled. And then, you know, once I even got into a heated political conversation with a guy about what's going on in Ethiopia. Fascinating. I learned all sorts of things about the politics. So these moments, or, you know, you're sitting next to someone on an airplane, just ask them, you know, we're going to Denver.

33:17Why are you going to Denver? Is it business or is it pleasure? It's very energizing. And I like to joke that, you know, starting a conversation, you know, you're being virtuous. Not only is it good for you, it's good for them. And this is true, by the way. So you mentioned that you're somewhat introverted. It's true for introverted people as much as extroverted people. Very interesting studies out of the University of Chicago, a guy named Epley, did these studies by telling people, you know, just casually on the commute in, on the train or the bus, talk to someone. You have to talk to someone, one person, at least.

33:52And then, you know, you did a bunch of psychological studies beforehand and then asked them how happy they were, what they talked about, how long the conversation lasted. Turns out introverted people, they thought they wouldn't like to engage with people. Turns out they like to engage. They're happier when they do engage. It's just like extroverted people. There's no difference. So I think that's a really revealing point. when introverted people act extroverted, they actually turn out to be happier. Because we're people. We love social interaction.

34:24Ryan Hawk:A hundred percent true. Like the feeling you get of that. This is why this may sound like an old person, I guess, but looking at like our daughters going to college, they all want to wear headphones. You don't look old enough. I know. Well, we are. They all want to wear headphones all the time. And they don't want to listen to mom and dad, obviously. You know how that goes. So maybe they'll listen to Dr. Zeke here. But I just want them to take the headphones off, especially as freshmen. because you want to have the opportunity to potentially talk to somebody as you're walking to class or you're walking to work out.

34:53Ryan Hawk:But if you're wearing headphones, I think that really stopped. This may sound like a niche-y weird thing, but I think this is very real of take the headphones off when you're walking from class to class or to the gym, especially on college campuses and in New York City where people are walking because now when I go to New York, I feel like everyone's wearing AirPods. What do you think about this idea of like take the headphones out so that you can maybe have a random encounter or conversation with a person? All of that is super important. So in my classroom at Penn, I prohibit phones. So you have to turn them off and put them in your backpack or coat.

35:27No computers that can connect to the internet. And people come in and now they're talking to each other. Before, they weren't. They were scrolling. And increasingly, that's true in high schools. but I am 100 % with you about, you know, random events. You have no idea who you're going to interact with, where it might be fun, et cetera. And by the way, I'm older than you. And in the early 2000s, even late 1990s, when Apple created the, what was it? The iPod? The iPod, right? And people were beginning to walk down the street. It drove me nuts. And I would accost people who were walking down listening.

36:06I said, you know, take those things out and interact. I have a very good friend, one of my best friends from college who lives in L.A., and he often reminds me of this. You know, we would walk down because we were in graduate school together in Cambridge. And he would, you know, remind me of how difficult I was to walk down the street with because I was always accosting people and saying, you know, engage in the world. Don't retreat from it into your own little cocoon.

36:34Ryan Hawk:you just never know like who you might meet or whatever what opportunity not not it's not a transactional thing i'm just saying like in general you just never know you may meet a friend for life you also just like meet someone who tells you one interesting thing sure you know i like the idea of increasing your surface area for lucky moments in your life again that could be just one thing you learn or a friendship for life or who knows what it could be but whenever somebody looks at somebody says, oh, they're just luckier than me. I'm like, well, let's actually analyze what they do every day. Maybe they don't wear headphones in between class.

37:06Ryan Hawk:Maybe they, you know, there's a lot of things that probably could increase their surface area for lucky things or what appears to be lucky things. Well, let's do all that. One of the things you brought up. So you mentioned New Zealand, you've mentioned Ethiopia. I mean, the third one is expand your mind. So maybe that's part of travel. Where does travel come into play when it comes to like living a healthy life? You're exactly right. It isn't expanding your mind. Because one of the things that's good about travel is, you know, if you do it right, you're learning about someone else's culture, their food, you know, what activities going on there, what the politics is.

37:45We were just in New Zealand, you know, coffee culture there. We learned that New Zealand is brand new. So the Maori, the so-called natives, just arrived there in the 1400s, not very long ago. And white people arrived in the 1840s. And there was a lot of Maori wars among Maoris there. And we thought, well, all the New Zealanders came from Britain. Wrong. It's a very multicultural, diverse. So you learn tons of stuff. And then you go to restaurants. And, you know, I talk to chefs all the time. having a good meal. I want to talk to the chef. I want to find out.

38:24Ryan Hawk:Do you really, you just walk to the back or what do you do? I asked the waiter, could you ask the chef to come out and talk to him? And we had two fabulous meals in New Zealand, American Samoan, talked to the chef who created this, like, why did he create it? You know, he learned about him being in the military and coming. Fascinating. And then a British guy who came to New Zealand and he was talking about one dish where he and his daughter were going foraging for mushrooms and how she's talk about how the mushrooms were popping out through the leaves. And so the dish is, you know, leaves made out of sweet potatoes, celeric and parsnips and other things.

38:59And sauteed mushrooms underneath. And it was like, wow, fantastic, brilliant, you know, just beautiful, fantastic tasting, great story. You know, I'll never forget it. And he was happy. And I'll tell you another. So the meal was so outstanding. We rearranged our schedule to come back for a second meal in Queenstown at the end of our trip. And I called the guy up before we came. I said, you know, maybe you can have a few other dishes. So he obviously did some research on me. The meal comes in and there were a few substitutions that were already on the menu and he added them for us. And then at the end, when dessert was over, he brings out something special.

39:39We open up the container and it's got ice cream in it. He read that I had published the book. So he made a special ginger ice cream for us.

39:52Ryan Hawk:You know, I will never forget that story as long as I live. And I've referred probably 25 people from New Zealand, as well as people going to New Zealand already to check out that restaurant because it's so fantastic. But, you know, I just said, could we talk to him? I want to talk to this guy. He's a brilliant chef. What it shows me, Zeke, though, is to be interesting, you got to be interested. Yeah. And it feels like you're a super curious dude who's also unafraid to say, what a great meal. Let me talk to the person who made it, which seems like a, well, yeah, obviously I want to talk to the person who made this thing.

40:29Ryan Hawk:When most people don't do that, it feels like, what does your wife think? Is she like this way too? Or, or she's like, oh, here goes Zeke again. He wants to talk to the guy who made the food. Like, what's it like? Yes. That's what she says. And my daughter, when I sent them some pictures of the meal and I told them that we met the chef and they said, how'd you meet the chef? Did he come to you? I said, well, I asked to meet him. I mean, not a big deal. You know, we were in another restaurant in San Francisco and I hate fennel because I don't like licorice flavors. You know, there were like seven dishes with fennel in them and all sorts of, including the dessert.

41:02And I went up to the kitchen and I said, you know, you're the chef. I said, you know, I hate fennel, but you made this fantastic meal that didn't take All the fennel didn't taste like fennel. It tasted, yeah. And then I learned that the guy's a competitive bicyclist. So we talked about bicycling. You know, all you have to do, and I think you said it, Ryan, all you have to do is be interested, curious. That is going to keep you going. So I have a big hero in Ben Franklin, most brilliant man ever in America. Everything he did was world past. One of his defining characteristics, he had two key defining characters, three key defining characteristics.

41:37One was endlessly curious. Something went on. He said, well, why did that happen? The second is he always tried to grow, overcome his defects, his prejudices. The third is he was a very social guy. He came back to the United States at 80 years old after negotiating the end of the Revolutionary War. And the first thing he did was to build a library for his curiosity and a dining room for his social dinners.

42:03Ryan Hawk:That's the way to live. Yeah, I think I've been a lot of inspired. I don't know the correct pronunciation of junto or junto. Do you know? Yeah. Junto. Seriously? That's the way they do it in Latin America, which it's a Spanish word. Junto. Yeah. Oh, so I would have been wrong either way. Okay. Okay. But that has inspired me to be an organizer of dinners and getting together people who I'm curious about and want to learn from and hopefully that they then do it with each other. And that is also a very satisfying thing to be a catalyzer of curious people coming together, having great dialogue, conversation, especially if they don't know each other.

42:42Ryan Hawk:But maybe I do. And seeing those connections happening, that is a, I don't know, man. I don't know the right word. Well, in this trifecta, because you're eating good food, you're getting together with people, and your mind is being stretched by good conversation. You got it. I mean, three things from one activity. Fabulous. Anybody can do it. Take some work. Take some work. Worth it. Worth it. Get on the calendar. Book the reservation. Get the room. Whatever. Get the people. Okay. Number four is the title, right? Eat your ice cream, right? And so, yeah, healthy foods and drink, but also we're going to eat some ice cream.

43:18Absolutely. Look, ice cream, it's a cream, dairy product, which is good. Got protein. Eggs, again, excellent. Yes, it's got sugar. And then flavoring. The key thing to note is that ice cream actually is the single food that decreases your risk of type 2 diabetes the most. Now you say, why, how? Well, probably because, first of all, you're doing it with other people. Second of all, most importantly, it doesn't have as big a glycemic bump in your blood sugar, even though it's got a lot of sugar because of the way the fat protects the colon and the intestines. So it's good. There are a few things you should stop doing.

44:00Sodas, which 140 calories, no nutritional benefit. Ultra processed foods, because they're also not good for you. The two do's are fermented foods. Our colon, our guts have 100 trillion bacteria, more cells, more bacteria than cells in our body. We need the good ones and we need a lot of diversity. And fermented foods, whether yogurt or cottage cheese or sauerkraut, kimchi, those are really good for your gut. So I just had breakfast with my wife. You know, she broke out the sauerkraut to have with the nice omelet I made her. So that's fermented foods and then fiber. One of the big defects in American diets is not enough fiber.

44:46We've got all this craze about protein. Go to Dunkin' Donuts and they got protein, protein, protein. They add protein to everything. we all get enough protein. That's not our problem. There are a few people who don't, but generally Americans, 90 % of Americans get enough protein, but 90 plus percent of Americans don't get enough fiber. So you got to eat some fruit in the morning. I like berries with my yogurt and granola and then a salad for dinner. And you're most of the way to enough fiber, but fermented food and fiber, very important to gut health.

45:17Ryan Hawk:Okay. Something that I feel like I see everywhere now. Maybe it's based on being in my forties, but that's testosterone replacement therapy and peptides everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. Where are you at on this? Uh, I'm at no, really? Well, yeah, so are terrible. They're unregulated. You don't know what's in them. Now there are some peptides that we use like GLP ones and insulin, but the peptides you're going to get from your corner store, disaster. First of all, you don't know what's them. You don't know how they're manufactured. Uh, lots of cases of where they're bad. And then people, the latest craze is stacking.

45:54Ryan Hawk:Uh, please. Do you think that will change though? Because I know some of them are getting them from random other countries. Is that changing? I mean, there's all these wellness doctors, there's anti-aging stuff. I, again, I see it all the time. I have friends who are doing it. So good randomized trials that are large enough and serious enough and especially on the stacking where you're taking more than one yeah you have no idea what shit you're injecting into yourself you're spending all this time like should i isn't it crazy that this i mean maybe it's just where it's crazy it feels in your world are a lot of people doing this because in mine they are so i'm wondering what i stay away from that world i am a anti wellness industrial complex there's just another element of sell it to people make money on.

46:40Ryan Hawk:What about all the testosterone stuff as you get older and you're losing it? You don't feel the need to replace or do anything like that? I don't want to say this, but I have, my testosterone is a little high. So yeah. Why do you want to say that? I don't control it. I don't, I would not. No, you probably do. Don't you? I would do that for, for one thing, let's be serious. You know, all men are going to age and end up with prostate cancer. Testosterone is going to accelerate that. So, you know, don't do that. You might have a serious testosterone deficiency, that's a whole nother issue. Don't self-prescribe and certainly don't start it without measuring it and making sure that your doctor has, if you're at a certain age, you probably have other health issues and you got to make sure that it's not going to exacerbate them.

47:27And the last thing is growth hormone. Growth hormone associated with promoting cancers. Really stupid idea. That's being a schmuck.

47:36Ryan Hawk:I brought this up with my doctor. I was like, Hey man, like, what do you think? I'm seeing all these guys around me looking great, feeling great. And he's just like, dude, here's what you do. And he's basically said exactly what you just said. And it was about mostly about just eating good foods, getting rid of what can I say? Yeah, no, I mean, and he's done a lot of work. He's written a lot. He studied a lot. And so I was like, okay, all right, all right, all right. The last two are moving and sleep like a baby. So this importance of moving your body, this is one that I maybe take too far. The last one I'm not good enough at.

48:06Ryan Hawk:So I'm just curious, this idea of just moving a lot as well as sleeping well. The most important thing in terms of physical activity is going from horizontal. Too many Americans are couch pesetas to doing some physical activity. Now your way, you know, you have a routine, you do all of it. You do aerobic exercise, getting your heart rate up. You do strength training and you do probably balance and flexibility through yoga or some other combination of activities and stretches. That's the combo. That's what you should get yourself to do. You know, I personally, I do, uh, yoga 20 minutes every morning to get the stretching.

48:43I ride the bike. I love riding. As a matter of fact, for my birthday, we're thinking about a hundred mile ride. Um, and, uh, you know, strength training, I lift weights. I'm not great at strength training, but I know that after 60, we lose a lot of muscle mass. So we have to actually consciously reverse that by lifting weights and doing other strengthening. My bottom legs, fine, because I ride the bicycle, but the top, you know, I don't swim. If you swim, you get the top. And then sleep. Sleep is the one wellness activity you can't will yourself to do. You can set the bed, dark room, cool, not drinking caffeine or alcohol eight hours before you go to bed.

49:24Don't look at your phone and put it in another room. Read a book before you go to bed. Those are the things you can do. taking medications. Yes, we all want a quick fix to our insomnia, but they don't help. They only complicate problems. I did take Halcyon for sleep for a while, and then I'd wake up and I was a little groggy. And that's exactly why I wanted to go to sleep. Not to be groggy in the morning, but taking the pills was making me groggy. So it's a bad thing to do.

49:56Ryan Hawk:Got you. That's the one I struggle with the most. Yeah, we all do. Are you a good sleeper? Oh, yeah. You are? I'm a terrible sleeper. No, you're a bad sleeper. Yeah, yeah. So are you concerned about that? I can't do anything about it. I know, look. How many hours a night you sleep? So I'm a seven hour, 15, seven hour, 30 minute sleeper. That seems good. It's good, but I don't get, that's, I don't get all those hours all the time. I wake up multiple times a night and the deep sleep is probably on the shy end. I get about 10 % of my sleeping is deep sleep. And I know that when I'm writing and I'm thinking, you know, how to say something, how to get it right.

50:37I likely to stay up longer. And so I just don't fight it.

50:40Ryan Hawk:Yeah, I got you. One more question, Zeke, before we run. It's called the champagne question, regardless if you drink champagne or not. It's one year from today. You're with the people you love, your wife, your daughters, whoever, brothers, your mom. You guys are all popping bottles and spraying it all over each other. What are you celebrating? One year from today. A year from now? One year from today. One year from today. Hopefully, I'll finish my next book. That better be this year, and maybe it'll be coming out. One of the other things I was celebrating is I'll be close to 70. That'll probably, you know, September 2027, 70 years old.

51:23Ryan Hawk:Awesome. What's the next book about? It's How to Fix the Fucked Up American Healthcare System. Excuse the French. I hope your listeners will. but everything is broken and we really need a comprehensive reflex. And so I'm thinking it through. Okay. That's ambitious. Love it. Love it, man. I love people who are like, I'm just going for it, man. Like, why not? Why not me? I mean, you seem to be the guy to write that. This one's called eat your ice cream, six simple rules for a long and healthy life. Zeke, this is awesome, man. Thank you so much. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man.

51:56I think you said we could go on for hours and I had the feeling we could exchange notes about various things that we've both done, both smart and schmucky.

52:06Ryan Hawk:Yes. Oh, for sure. For sure. I'd love to, man. Thank you so much, man. All right, Ryan, it's been fantastic. Thank you.

52:17Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan, at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Dr. Zeke Emanuel. A few takeaways from my notes. Invest in your relationships. The Harvard Adult Development Study has the facts, the scientific research. Close social relationships are the single strongest predictor of a long, healthy life. So schedule the dinner, make the call, get together in person with your friends. Then to be interesting, be interested. That's one of the biggest things I took from Zeke.

53:07Ryan Hawk:He's just so curious about people, places, food, travel, just about life. The next time you have a great meal, ask to talk with a chef. I've never done this, but I think I'm going to try it. Talk to the stranger at the next table. Being curious and open makes for a really interesting life. And then how about his parents? How did they raise three boys who are putting such a dent in the world? I love a few of the things he said about them. Do good by people. They modeled what it meant to love and care for others. His dad didn't charge a family after their third kid for medical care. His mom marched for civil rights, including there at the I Have a Dream speech, Dr.

53:48Ryan Hawk:Martin Luther King. and she was the anti-helicopter parent. She created an environment where her boys had to get back up on their own when they fell down and had to figure things out. We all could learn a lot from that. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Dr. Zeke Emanuel. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You subscribe to the show. You rate it hopefully five stars.

54:24Ryan Hawk:You write a thoughtful review by doing all of that. You are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.

54:48Thank you.