697: The Price of Becoming - The Compounding Practices of High Performance (My New Book is Now Available!). "Have a Plan. Work the Plan. Plan for the Unexpected."

24:06I don't know if you saw the one with Eric Schmidt. Where they boo them. Yeah. Where they boo them.

24:10Ryan Hawk:Yeah. Right. And it's this whole issue of the younger generation having very different feelings about the threat that AI poses to their development. And the reason I think it connects with your book is you're so focused on self-development. And I'm interested in your thoughts behind what AI represents for maybe the younger generation and maybe even our generation of, if I'm continually focused on developing myself as a person, what does AI either contribute to that or take away from that? If I'm optimizing and optimizing, at any point, can Anthropic or an open AI just come and make all of that work null and void because their new model does exactly what I've been working toward.

24:56What are your thoughts on that?

24:57Ryan Hawk:So this is like really nuanced because I use those tools every day as a thought partner, as a research assistant to help me strategize with the future of my business. They're only going to get better, I would assume. To say like act like they don't exist and don't use them would be stupid. You should learn how to best utilize a technology so that it benefits you. Now, the problem is if you start outsourcing your thinking. If you have it right for you, that is so stupid. If you post AI slop on LinkedIn, I would like... There's AI slop on LinkedIn? Are you serious? I will do whatever I can to unfollow you, to have you not be a part of my life.

25:39Ryan Hawk:I do not want any part of all the AI slop on LinkedIn. It will hurt you so much if you want to get a good job, if you're going to post AI slop on LinkedIn and other places. So I would push hard against that. So understand how can it help you make you better. Now, remember, though, if you want to get a, like, let's say you want to get a good job or work for a good company, what is the number one thing you need to do, whether AI is involved or not? You need to add value to people's lives. You need to solve problems. You need to make your boss's life better. That's ultimately your job, especially for entry-level jobs, but really any job.

26:15Ryan Hawk:What is your job? Add value to other people's lives. Make your boss's life better. That's it. So whatever tools, the way you got to do it, do that. Learn the technology of today. Learn the technology of tomorrow so that you can add value to other people's lives. I learned this from Coach Heppner when I was 19 years old, and he sat me down with the other guy, and he pointed to both of us, and he said, Ryan, he adds more value to our team than you do. He gives us a better chance to win than you do. That's why he's going to play. And so it's an incredibly lucky lesson to learn at a young age of what is my job in life?

26:59Ryan Hawk:It's to add value to other people's lives, to make their lives better. You can do that in a lot of ways. But thinking of my number one mission and goal, if I continually add value to other people's lives, good things seem to happen for my business, for my life, both personal and professional. And so regardless of AI or not, that's your job. And I think if you focus on that every day and you have a prompt at the end of the day that says, what did I do today to add value to other people's lives? And you're able to answer that with specifics every single day and you stack day after day for a long time, I'm betting on you.

27:35Ryan Hawk:I'm going to bet on you to have a really great, fulfilling life and career versus if you think you're entitled or you think you're owed something, I'm not betting on you. That's not typically how it works. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you're saying. And the reason I wanted to kind of focus on this area is because recently I've heard a lot of discussion in the Chris Williamson, kind of Ezra Klein, they had a podcast recently where they talked about AI as a metaphor, kind of like an exoskeleton that you put on, almost like an Iron Man suit. Like you can fly higher with it. You can run faster with it.

28:08But the danger is that inside that suit, your body can atrophy, right? Because the muscles that you're using, it's not your muscle, right? It's something else. And so what I'm curious to know is in your usage of AI personally, how you make sure that you're not sacrificing your personal growth and development, even in the neuroplasticity of your brain. Because in the book, you talk about stretching yourself. You talk about being uncomfortable and making sure you stay uncomfortable even while you're using AI. Because AI, its goal is to create kind of a frictionless environment. Oh, here's a problem, blah, blah, blah.

28:42I'm just a prompt. The connection between the problem and the solution is like, I'm the little joint in the middle of that, and I just put my little prompt in there. But the way you're describing it seems very different. It seems like you have a mentality of still making yourself uncomfortable, still getting after it. And AI fits into that maybe in a different way. So I'd like to hear even more thoughts from you on that because I think a lot of people could benefit from it. part of why I'm so anti-outsourcing your thinking is because I actually did it myself.

29:15Ryan Hawk:I was very hesitant to say this, but I'll share just because I would rather be as fully transparent. So if you look at the section titled Be a Pro, I originally posted that whole thought on LinkedIn. It's kind of AI slop. Now, some of the original idea stuff is mine, but it's heavily influenced by Claude. And I got like this initial huge rush of feeling good because it went really well on LinkedIn when I posted it. And a lot of people talked, it actually, one of the few things on Twitter that people were DMing me that I really respect, like, dude, that's amazing. I love that. So I felt the rush of what you can get with the tools help in a big way.

29:57Ryan Hawk:And so I realized, oh no, oh, I didn't do all of the necessary work, and yet I got these big-time rewards. Now, that was like a year ago, and so I think people are kind of on to that now. It's not this, it's that, talking in threes, M-dashes, all that stuff. It's got all of that kind of slop in there. And so it scared me. It honestly scared me because I was getting some of the rewards without doing all of the work. and so I almost felt like my own brain atrophying in that moment because I wasn't working it as hard as it needs to be work and you even notice like with some of the notes you sent over like dude be careful with the AI and you're like dude I didn't use AI that's how I'm very very like hypersensitive to this stuff because I so badly don't want that out there so now it's completely different I will write my own sloppy terrible first draft and then maybe even do a second draft on my own and then I will upload it and like say, Hey, how can you make sure grammar is all right?

30:56Ryan Hawk:But I don't want it to completely change how I think. I think the messiness of getting those thoughts out of your head onto the page initially do not outsource that part. You got to do that first part, I think on your own and maybe even the second and third. And then maybe if you want to clean up a little bit, you get some help, but I felt it. I felt how good it can feel to have it produce its thing. And you're like, oh yeah, that's pretty good. Like, it's not, that's not bad. It's not bad. And then other people seem to like it too. And that's dangerous. That's very dangerous. And I think now though, again, we're a year later.

31:31Ryan Hawk:Now everyone can notice it. Like everyone can see when you didn't write it. We see it every day. And so now I don't think that's going to work as well unless the tools get a lot better because it's pretty sloppy out there now. And also it's very dangerous for you to like walk into the weight room, look around and then think like you're going to get muscles without lifting. You got to go move the weights too. I think that's the big part of when it comes to writing and creativity and how AI can affect that. Oh man, gosh, you hit on so many good things. And I appreciate you sharing because it's like everything you described is kind of like a microcosm of the score that matters a little bit.

32:09You're talking about the external validation versus what you get as a person and being wary of external validation because it's only indicative really of people's perception of you. It's not really indicative of the growth that's happening within you. And you end the book, I don't want to get to the end of the book before we get there, because you end the book very movingly talking about the internal things that happen to you as a person and making this commitment. It's an open-ended commitment, which is what I think is unique, this open-ended commitment to always be learning and always be growing and being okay with some of the unknowns there.

32:49Yeah, you end the book talking about that the price of becoming is just always something you're paying and you always just have to be willing to pay that. And that's where I go back to this being kind of like a philosophy book. It's a very specific way of looking at the world in what you just described about, you know, feeling the pressures of the external validation, but also because we're all learning this in real time. So I'm like, I'm very interested in that. But another thing, it seems like books kind of go in cycles in your space, sort of the leadership, the excellence.

33:23Ryan Hawk:Is it not your space? Well, in what you're very much focused on, right? It's like your niche of like helping businesses and leaders, it seems like it goes in cycles. You see trends come and go, I guess is what I'm saying. So David Goggins is a great example of someone who's just like almost takes getting after it to like an extreme that very few people do. And then, you know, the Sheryl Sandbergs of like lean in, lean into work. And then you see kind of reactions percolating against that. Like I'm sure you've read Cal Newport, slow productivity, his research on people who have accomplished a lot in life, Charles Dickens, Charles Darwin, they spent huge portions of time basically sitting around doing nothing.

34:09And then they would have extreme moments in their life or times in their life where they would work basically 24 hours a day to get something done. So I'm curious, in your experience, you've been doing this for over a decade now, the push and pull that people feel with the commitments they should have in work versus their life. Do you buy that dynamic or do you think that the work life thing is a false dichotomy and there's a different way of thinking about it?

34:35Ryan Hawk:I think there are different chapters depending on where you're at, your family situation. For example, my current chapter, as you know, like I, part of how we got reconnected was I was chaperoning a school field trip for my daughter, Charlie, at the bowling alley and just so happened to be paired with your wife who was doing the same thing that day. And I was like, oh, I need to talk to Dan. And then boom, we reconnect and like, dude, I need some help with this book. And it was way early days. So my point is I'm in a chapter now of realizing I'm in the good old days as a dad. And I don't want to miss the good old days.

35:14Ryan Hawk:With that said, I also in my prime earning years have built something special that people like that creates insane opportunities that I never would have imagined. So my version of that, and this to get really practical is I need to work really hard when my family is asleep or when they're at school. So I don't have meetings at eight o 'clock ever because Charlie gets on the bus at eight Oh six. I put her on the bus every day. Charlie gets off the bus or I go to school. I've seen you there picking up, you know, right around like a little bit before four o 'clock, right? I like to do that. Miranda does that sometimes too.

35:54Ryan Hawk:Or if she rides the bus, then, you know, it's right around that same time. So those are my hours. And in those hours, I'm going to work incredibly hard. Occasionally though, I will be a chaperone on a field trip and not work that day too. Right. And so my thing is I get up really early. I do you got emails and texts from me, what, 4.30, 5 o 'clock, 6 o 'clock? You probably got annoyed at the number of texts and emails you got from me at 4.45, 5 o 'clock working on this book. So when they sleep and when they're at school, outside of those hours, I try not to work or at least not work that much so that I'm with them present during the good old days, which are right now.

36:34Ryan Hawk:And then occasionally, I travel. I'll go give a speech. I will fly in. I push at the limit, though. Sometimes I fly in right before I go on stage and I always leave immediately after I'm done. Hey, come have dinner, do that. I don't do any of that. I go, I do the work, you know, I'll build relationships with them other ways, but I go, I do the work and I come home. That's part of work, right? They know dad's got to go, you know, pay the bills and that's like, go get on a stage or something like that. So that's what I try to do. You know, whatever balance integration, whatever words you want to use.

37:03Ryan Hawk:My thing is, Hey, when they're sleeping, get after it. Hey, when they're at school, get after it. The other times try my best to be as present as possible. I didn't realize that you and I have the exact same mentality here because I try to start my day very early, as early as I can. It's funny that you would respond so much almost immediately at these crazy hours because other people, sometimes I will still send them the text or the note at those crazy hours because I don't want to forget. And so I just send it and maybe that's disrespectful, but usually there's a very delayed response with you.

37:35Ryan Hawk:It was kind of like immediately. I'm always up early. No, I always get up early and I start my day early. I get into the office early and I try to end early for literally the exact reason you said, which is I want to spend time with my kids and it's important to me, but I also take my work incredibly seriously. And so how do you balance those things, right? Yeah. When it's go time, it's on us as leaders who have high standards and believe in excellence is to get after it as hard as you can go during those hours. Not just kind of like, oh, I'm going to do some work here and there all the time. That's not how it works.

38:09Ryan Hawk:It's like when it's go time, we got to go, man. Like we got to go as hard as we can go. And that could be at random hours. But to me, it's like, okay, good old days. Let's make the most of these things. Because I've talked to so many dads, especially, whose kids are gone. They're in college or they're beyond that. Almost all of them say the exact same thing. One, it goes by so fast. And two, like I wish I had more of those days. I am so jealous of you that you have those days where your kids are still in the house and doing that stuff. And so, okay, I want to make the most of it. So my summer schedule is completely different than fall and winter and spring because they're out of school.

38:45Ryan Hawk:That doesn't mean I don't work. I certainly do, but it definitely changes things when the pool is open and there's opportunities to be outside with my family. I try to do those more. It's so important for people to hear you say that. We can't talk about kids too much because I'll get emotional. But yeah, I really resonate with what you're saying. And just being there for them because you'll never get these days back. Have you ever heard of Cal Newport's concept of performative productivity? Say more. So basically, he has this idea that there's these metrics that people informally use in a corporate setting.

39:15How late are you in the office?

39:17Ryan Hawk:Yeah. Am I seeing you around versus the actual... Busy doesn't equal productive. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Have you interacted with those ideas much in your own mind? I love Cal. It's funny. so I just got a note from his publisher, like he's got another one coming out because Cal writes his books and then he disappears. No social media, as you know, he's completely gone. He will though do podcasts to promote his book and then he'll disappear again. So it's, it is, his name literally popped up yesterday from them about the next one. So I love that style. Now it helps that he's brilliant. I think he's brilliant in addition to being really kind and generous and curious and thoughtful.

39:56Ryan Hawk:But yeah, to me, the dumber version of that for people like me is when it's time to get after it and work, that is your job is to get after it and work really, really hard during those hours. And for me, I own my own business. So like, I don't have to perform for anybody. It's all for me. I'm in my studio here by myself. So when it's go time, like there's no point in just punching in the clock or showing up here. Nobody knows if I'm here or not. So I guess I'm so out of that world of, do I have to punch the clock corporate America type stuff where I was in before? But yeah, I would hope that people would design businesses and companies where it's like, hey, when it's go time, get after it.

40:35Ryan Hawk:And outside of that, then go do your thing or whatever it is that you want to do with your family. But I don't know. I'm probably not the best to speak about that when it comes to performing or looking busy. I haven't had to do that for a really long time. You've made this comment a couple of times talking about you're slightly modifying a quote from Steve Jobs. And I've heard you say this before, where Steve Jobs famously said, making a dent in the world. He wanted to make a dent in the world. And you put an interesting little caveat into this quote saying you want to make a positive dent in the world.

41:08How do you know you're making a positive dent in the world rather than just a dent?

41:13Ryan Hawk:When I get an email from a farmer in Iowa who said, our Monday evening family conversations are about your podcast. When I talk to people on the side of the stage and they're crying and they've implemented stuff from the podcast, they've read the books, and then they've had it brought home even more from a keynote speech. It's literally one at a time, Dan, and it's the best. The one at a time moments where you've done something that has been literally transformational, which by definition, you've helped transform someone, which means you've changed them for the better. When you see those tears in people's eyes, when you read those emails, it's emotional even thinking about those things.

41:59Ryan Hawk:There's nothing better because that's ultimately what I'm trying to do, right? I want people to have high standards. I want to inspire people to like go bigger, try to leave their own positive dent. And so, yeah, to me, it's all about other people. When you think about your life's purpose, it has to involve other people. It has to. Like that's the only way. is the impact we make. I also think one of my core values is to be grateful, be thankful. The critical behavior to match that, for me at least, is to leave it better. Said longer, leave people, places, and things better than I found them. The old Girl Scout rule.

42:34Ryan Hawk:And that's what I'm trying really, really hard to do. I think that's what a positive dent is, is you walked into a space to work with a group and you left them better. You walked in the park and somebody put their trash on the ground and you picked it up and threw it away. You left the park better. Whatever it is, thinking of ways to leave people, places and things better than you found them. I think that's how you like make that positive dent literally one person at a time. And it's the best. It's the juice, man. It's really what it's all about. Yeah. Have you ever heard of Fritz Haber? No. Fritz Haber was a, this is going to sound like, I'm not engaging with what you just said.

43:14It took way too long, by the way, dude,

43:16Ryan Hawk:for you to bring up some weirdo that I know you read that I'm sure you're going to bring at home. But I watched all your Instagram videos and I love them so much because I'm learning about people I've never heard of in all these books and history. So anyway, go ahead. Fritz, say it again. Fritz Haber. Fritz Haber. Okay. Fritz Haber. And the reason I bring him up is he's a tragedy of history, but somebody that I think is a good sort of illustration of what you're talking about, leaving a positive dent versus just leaving a dent. So Fritz Haber was the inventor of Zyklon A. Do you know what Zyklon A is?

43:49Ryan Hawk:Should I? Zyklon A is a pesticide that they put on crops. It kind of had like a pungent smell to it. But because of Fritz Haber's work, this would have been around the time of World War II, and he was a German scientist. So maybe you see where I'm going with this. But he invented a pesticide that increased agricultural production that fed tens of millions of people. So tens of millions of people benefited from his research that you could increase crop production because of these pesticides. Zyklon B was the gas that killed millions of Jews in the Holocaust. And it was also a product of his invention.

44:29Ryan Hawk:Whoa. You won the Nobel Prize. He invented both? Well, basically the second was a derivative of the first, right? Was he aware of that second part or no? He was aware, but he wasn't necessarily involved in the second piece, but he knew that his research led to the second piece. And so this is like something I think it's incumbent on everyone to think about making a positive dent because that wasn't necessarily his intention to have this other thing created. And he ended up having a very tragic life. And it's an extreme example, but I think it's one where, you know, another good example would be, you know, if people have seen the movie based off the invention of the atomic bomb, right?

45:11Ryan Hawk:Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer, you know, just everything that one person's genius and one person's incredible life's work could lead to these outcomes that nobody can predict. And so I'm wondering how you make sure in your life's work that you're doing all this good work, you're having this great impact on people, but really driving the point home, making sure that you're having that positive impact. Like, are there other things you're considering? Like, are there some things you're saying no to because you're like, I don't want that to become a snowball that becomes something that I didn't intend?

45:47Or maybe that never comes across. So I'm just, the reason I bring him up as Fritz Haber, I think is a perfect encapsulation of a brilliant person who went after it and worked very hard. But there's all these things outside in the world that we cannot control. And you talk a lot about in the book about being okay with uncertainty and not being able to control. So I would just wonder how you react to somebody like him or Oppenheimer who did all this great work, yet the results were not in their control.

46:15Ryan Hawk:Yeah, I guess it's hard to know because I'm not inventing anything. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before. I think I'm saying it in a different way. I think I'm saying it in a way that it helps connect with people. The one criticism, again, and this came up earlier in our conversation, is some would say, dude, why don't you just chill out? Yeah. Just chill out. Just enjoy your life. And to me, this is how I enjoy my life. This is fun. To me, this is life on fun mode is by going hard and by getting up early and by working really, really hard when it's time to work. But maybe that's not right for everybody.

46:54Ryan Hawk:You know what I mean? Like maybe that could cause somebody, if they try to implement all this stuff, it could cause them to go crazy. I don't know. Like there's a chance that could happen. It's only been beneficial to me and to a lot of the people that we work with, but there's a chance that this isn't right for everyone. In fact, like that's why we say my publisher does not like this part, but I say this is for eights and nines who want to be tens. This is for people who are already doing really, really well and they want to do a little bit better. So maybe it's not for everyone. If in the wrong hands, it could be destructive for somebody.

47:26Ryan Hawk:I don't think so. If I thought that was a case, then I wouldn't do it. But to me, like who knows? I'm sure both of those guys, although Oppenheimer had to know a little bit, like he was helping build something that was going to kill a lot of people. So that's a little bit different than the other dude who was making the invention to help grow more food. So you wonder kind of how those people go about it. For me, I haven't really thought about any of the downsides, but you bring up an interesting point. It's an extreme example for sure. I just think as people consider the impacts that they're going to have, maybe not even necessarily you.

47:58What about you?

47:58Ryan Hawk:I mean, you're in this work, like you've read every word and edited and found research. Do you see negatives or potential downsides to this? No, I don't see potential downsides. I was just curious, maybe the broader impact that you consider, not even in just the book, but your life's work. But no, I don't see anything in the book that even would have the potential of a downside. No. It does lead me to an interesting question, though, because have you ever heard the term grind slop? I mean, I could guess what that means. I don't think I've... I mean, I just... Yeah, now everything has slop added at the end of it, but yes.

48:33Ryan Hawk:I know. All right, so talk to me about it. So Grind Slop is a kind of content that's out there where if you're not satisfied in your work, your problem is, well, you're only working 60 hours a week. You're not working hard enough, yeah. You can work 70, you know? And this comes dressed up in all sorts of different ways, you know, different personalities. And I'm not going to name any names, but you see it out there, right? Sure, sure. So how is your life's work and how is the book not Grind Slop? Explain that for people. Do you think it is? Be honest with me. Do you think it is? I don't think it is, but I want to hear you explain why it's not.

49:08Ryan Hawk:Well, I mean, just like we just talked about. I mean, again, when it's time to work, you got to work. We haven't talked about quantity of that. We've talked about when it's time to go that you go really hard. And so is there a grinding element? Yes. Am I just going to push you to work more? I mean, I guess at times if you're not doing anything. But the one thing that having a podcast for 11 years and 700 conversations does for you is it makes you more reasonable. it makes you less black and white and much more gray. And I think that's really, really good. Because when you go out into the world and have conversations with people, you realize that the world is very, very gray.

49:46Ryan Hawk:It's not black and white as much as we want rules or we want to think it's either this or it's that. It's almost never just this or that, right? That's why the political landscape is so challenging for so many of us is because most of us, the majority of humans are not in this camp or that camp. We're somewhere in the middle of those things. I definitely am, right? I'm not on either one. And so I don't have a home because that's not like real life. And yet you're forced to vote for one or the other. And it's really, really tough because most of us are neither. So yeah, I would say grind stop. I could see if people cherry picked certain parts that maybe they would say that like a hundred shots a day.

50:30Ryan Hawk:that seems like a lot. Oh my God. Every day, no matter what, even on Christmas or it's snowing or my birthday or I'm sick, that seems crazy. That seems crazy. Excuses, bro. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, we talk about not making excuses too. So, but if you look at the full picture of the combination of my podcast, the whole book, not just little parts of it, I don't think it would be accused of that. Sure. So one of my favorite genres of social media is Kobe Bryant reels. So growing up, He was like my era, right? So people do these super cuts of like speeches he's given and it shows like different highlights of his career and him just talking about the dedication he brought to the game.

51:12And, you know, I noticed there's content like that out there that's meant to inspire feelings in people. If I'm having a rough day, if I'm feeling like, man, I just don't have gas in the tank, I might get out my phone and look at some Kobe Bryant reels.

51:26Ryan Hawk:Same. But there's also a version of that, like Arthur Brooks or somebody like yourself, and I'm curious how you would place yourself in this paradigm. There's the inspires feelings that you can push through like the Kobe Bryant reel. And then there's like Andrew Huberman, Arthur Brooks, where they're, they're giving you information that's meant to help you. They're bringing original research to bear to say, you know, I'm a neurologist. Here's how your brain works. Here's a piece of information that's going to help you do what you do versus now for sure you're going to still feel feelings while listening to those guys because they bring passion to it.

52:06But then over here, you've got something that's not necessarily giving you any new information, but there's music in it. There's Kobe Bryant's voice in it. There's these highlight reels that inspire a feeling. So on this spectrum of information and feeling, where would you put yourself? Are you trying to inspire people to feel a certain way? You talked about tears coming to people's eyes. Are you trying to give them information to help them or both?

52:30Ryan Hawk:So this makes me think of when we're having conversations with people who are considering me versus 10 other people for the, to be their closing keynote at their company national sales meeting, for example. And they'll like, give me your philosophy. Like, what are you trying to do when you get on stage? And this is what I'm trying to do. And this is what I say to be compelling on stage, to be really, really great, to be excellent. I think you have to have story, science, and practical application. You have to engage people and move them to the edge of their seats. Great storytelling. Get their attention.

53:07Ryan Hawk:Make it so that they want to watch you. Science is the Huberman part of like, this is actually true. This is real. There's evidence. There's empirical evidence. Like, look at, this is a job that you did really, really well, right? We would tell these stories in the book. And I'd say we, because this was genuinely like a group project and then you would supply me or sometimes i would find it i guess of this actual research and empirical evidence that brought that story like made it true and then you have to answer the question so what why should i care so what why should i care that's the practical application so story science practical application i try to write that way i try to speak that way when i'm on stages because you got to have all three you have to if you want to be excellent i've been to speeches where they're just good storytellers i enjoy those they're good right i try to come up with my own practical application as best i can but usually i kind of slowly forget about it and then oh yeah that guy was good that type of thing but the best ones are where they tell these amazing stories.

54:14Ryan Hawk:And I'm like, wait, I can't wait for more. Like, I don't want this to end. But then they also have the empirical evidence, the data, the research that proves all of that stuff true. And then they also go the extra step to say, here's how you can actually implement this into your life and change it for the better. So the way we designed the book, right, we're telling lots of stories, right? Justin Bariso, who writes for Inc., he's about to publish this story. He said, dude, my favorite book of the year, because there's so many useful and entertaining stories, right which means a lot this guy reads books for a living that he said that to me but then at the end of each chapter there are reflection questions to make you think as well as action steps to make you do so i think you got to have all three of those things in order to be like really really effective you do have to move people you have to inspire them it's important you got to be a good storyteller but all that stuff's got to have actual evidence that makes it true and then you need to help them implement all of it.

55:08Ryan Hawk:And that's what I think we did probably as good of a job as we've ever done when it comes to this book. Can you tell me a little bit about how that factors into your coaching work? I know you spend a lot of time with people, leadership teams, and I'm curious, like when you meet with those people, does that mentality change at all? Are you still trying to inspire them in certain ways or is that more like tactical day-to-day coaching? Both. But one of the things we hear, especially when you see Garen Stokes or Sherry Cole or Brooke Cupps, the thing that we get the most are I can feel the passion that they actually live all of this stuff they're teaching us.

55:48Ryan Hawk:That's what I love the most. That's our edge. Our coaches are actively doing the thing that they're teaching. They didn't go to some seminar and get certified to teach this stuff. they're actively living it themselves, both for themselves, like leading themselves, as well as leading teams and others. They're active coaches. They may have left the classroom to come work with me, but they're still coaching teams, like actually doing this stuff. So they're doing it in real time and teaching it in real time to the people that we work with. So a lot of people leave inspired, leave really, really juiced up to do work.

56:24Ryan Hawk:Like look at Garen Stokes, look at his shirt after he's done speaking. It's soaking wet. It's gross. It's disgusting. Because he pours his entire heart and soul into every single interaction, whether it's two people on Zoom, which we've done before, or a thousand people in person. It doesn't matter. And so I think that's what we bring to it is this deep, deep joy and passion and actual living of the thing. Then we share that, and these guys are great communicators. They are very good storytellers. They're amazing in front of a room because they taught for 20 plus years. So they got a lot of reps in front of a group of people speaking and they're, they're world class.

57:04Ryan Hawk:They're the best in the world, the best I've ever seen at it. And that's why I like when I'm part of my job is selling our surfaces. It's the easiest sales job of all time because I believe in it. I believe in it with every ounce of my being of how good these guys are and how good they are with people. And I, now we have years of evidence to prove that as well. It's not just what I think or like how I'm inspired. We have a lot of others who've been through it. So yeah, I think the inspiration is absolutely part of it. But the thing that's most important is like to authentically live it yourself and then just share that with others.

57:36Ryan Hawk:That's what moves people. That's what makes a difference. How do you encourage your coaches and the people that you're coaching? Because you end the book talking about this balance between being uncomfortable, but not so uncomfortable that you break. The exact quote that I have, because I love how you wrap this up. You say the price of becoming excellent is the willingness to be perpetually uncomfortable, stretched, not miserable, challenged enough to grow, but not so much that you break. How do you balance that in your own life? How do you balance that when you're coaching people? How do you find that balance?

58:15Ryan Hawk:It's tough. It's nuanced. But I remember I did a live podcast with James Clear before Atomic Habits came out. So this is like a long time ago. Now, Atomic Habs, the greatest selling book of the past decade, 25 million copies sold. Incredible what he's done. But he talked about the Goldilocks zone. So he's like, if you want to get better at tennis, you're not going to get better by playing Roger Federer. That's what he said at the time. Federer, that's how long ago it was. He was the number one player in the world when he said that. The point is, you don't want to do something that's going to break you.

58:49Ryan Hawk:He's going to beat you into the ground if he played you in tennis, no matter how good you think you are. But you also don't want to play against a five-year-old who can't even hold a racket. You've got to find that Goldilocks zone of your comfort zone of the thing so that you could regularly push on those edges. The phrase push your edges comes from Jay Hennessy, 26-year Navy SEAL. It's what he looked for in teammates who were going to become Navy SEALs alongside him when he went to work in San Diego and was in the training of future SEALs. And so I'm always thinking of, and this is a prompt I ask myself at the end of each day, what did I do today to push my edges?

59:27Ryan Hawk:And that's something that's in that Goldilocks zone of being, you know, examples. Go to improv class, right? That's not going to kill me. I'm very uncomfortable. I don't want to do it. But I do think it could help me become a better communicator. So I got a black box theater. And I remember Justin, the owner of the theater, the very first day I go in there, he has us all get up on stage and get, Have you ever done improv? You'd probably kill it in improv. Never. Okay. Never done improv. This is what he does. He has this lineup in a circle, and he says, okay, here's what we're going to do. This is the very first thing.

59:57Ryan Hawk:I'm going to point to somebody, and when I point to you, you have to come to the middle of the circle and sing. Acapella, just sing. Any song you want. Oh, gosh. Right? And I'm in there with this group, and he points to me first, and I have to go out in the middle, and I'm like, I got to be - Your first? First guy. First guy. And I start singing, Flintstones, meet the Flintstones, because I couldn't think of anything else. and it was actually in the movie Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. John Candy sings it on the bus. And that was what I thought of. And you know what? It was great. They like clapped and laughed.

1:00:24Ryan Hawk:And I was like, that's not so bad. That's not so bad. You know, I'm not a good singer, but I could do that. My point is I didn't really want to do that. I thought it would make me a better communicator. It pushed my edges. It made something that was really, really uncomfortable a little bit more comfortable. And so when you push on your edges like that, in that Goldilocks zone, you get a little bit better, a little bit better, a little bit better. So asking yourself a prompt at the end of the day, what did I do today to push my edges is very useful. And then you could write down, oh, I went to improv class and sang in front of a group of strangers.

1:00:54Ryan Hawk:It was super uncomfortable, but I'm better for it. Whatever may be. Signed up for a triathlon, trained for it physically, mentally, whatever that thing is. What are you doing today to push your edges a little bit? I think that's like that price of becoming that little bit better, being uncertain, willing to pay that price. And then over time, again, if you consistently do it, it pays off in big, big ways, but you got to be willing to continuously do it over a really long period of time. That's the difference. Ryan Hawk singing Flintstones theme song is, I didn't have that on my bingo card. That's amazing.

1:01:26Ryan Hawk:So I did. So I did. It was, I was like, don't call me, don't call me, don't call me. And he goes, Ryan, you're first. I was like, no. And then I go out there and I couldn't think of anything else. I blanked and did it, but you're not for that long. And then the next person had to go and everybody was like, nice job, nice job. And so, you know, we all know how embarrassing or how hard that would be. And so everybody, they want to lift you up and make you feel good about it. And yeah, so that was a perfect example of doing something that I really didn't want to do. And I'm way better for having done it.

1:01:54He could probably read your face would be my guess.

1:01:57Ryan Hawk:Well, you know, you don't give him eye contact, right? You look away. I'm not here. I'm not here. You can't see me. I'm not here because I'm not looking at you. And of course they can see you. That's so funny. The coach that you mentioned earlier, this is a random thought, But the coach that you mentioned earlier that was sweating, that sweats a lot. Garen Stokes, yeah. Garen Stokes. It reminds me of a story I saw before he kind of popped off, I saw Shane Gillis live in Cincinnati. He was at the, I think the Taft Theater. Packed room. And we were sitting to the left side of the stage. And this was kind of before tires blew up.

1:02:30He was kind of making waves, but he wasn't really huge yet. And it's the best show I've ever seen. I've seen so many comedians live. I love this comedy. I've seen Dave Chappelle. I've seen Seinfeld. I've seen so many people live. He murdered that room like you've never seen. I mean, people were on the floor. Like, my face hurt. It was so funny. And the reason I bring him up is because after the show was over, we were sitting to the left, and he walked off stage behind the curtain. And I saw him walk off stage. and as soon as he got behind the curtain, I saw his shoulders slump and I saw like the body language was that he had given every single ounce.

1:03:12On stage, it was effortless. You would have never guessed he was even trying. He was just like, oh, you know, doing his bits, effortless. And as soon as he walked off, it was like he was ready to immediately fall asleep. And that was a really moving moment for me because sometimes what you see on the outside doesn't always match what's going on. You don't really know what it costs that person to really put themselves out there in that way.

1:03:36Ryan Hawk:I love that story. That's what the great ones do. They make it look so easy. But what you don't see, the price that Shane Gillis had to pay to make it look that way was more repetitions than you can imagine into every syllable of every single word he said on that stage to make it appear like, I'm just wandering out here having a conversation. Miranda actually came to, I did a speech for the Christ Hospital recently in Cincinnati. And there were a few hundred people in there. There were doctors and nurses and high-level people at this health system. And I was super nervous because I thought like, I'm the dumbest person in this room.

1:04:20Ryan Hawk:And she drove down with me. And so I'm thinking about it. And she had not seen me speak, I think in like four or five years. So it's been a long time. And I've gotten a lot of reps in the past four or five years. And we got going and I could feel like the opening went really well. And I really settled in and the interaction and the little exercise I did, like everything just hit, right? Like it went really, really well. They responded well, feedback was great. And afterwards we're driving home, like, what do you think? And she said, it was so cool because it never felt like a speech ever. It felt like a conversation with the people in the room.

1:04:56Ryan Hawk:And I don't remember it feeling that way. You just kind of walked out and just started having a conversation. And then she goes, I was actually waiting for the speech to start. And it never did. That's the highest compliment. The speech never started. It was just the whole thing was this big conversation with, you know, there are a few hundred people in there in the room. And I don't remember it being that way. And so I think that was kind of like, well, that's thousands and thousands of hours of not only doing it with actual people, but practicing with no people. So that once you do get up and do the thing, it feels like you're just wandering out having a conversation.

1:05:34Ryan Hawk:That's what practice looks like. And also afterwards, completely done, completely done of I got to go take a nap, that type of thing. that's the feeling I think because you put so much into it that afterwards you don't have much left and I think that's when you know I'm going to give it everything I've got while I'm out here and it's going to look like I'm not even doing anything but the people are going to be moved they're going to take action they're going to be entertained they're going to have fun right they're going to actually do something with it and I'm going to be kind of dead right but then I'll recover I'll recover and I'll be fine.

1:06:11Ryan Hawk:But that's how I think that works. And I think that's like the sign. That's a great sign that you're prepped, you're ready. And then afterwards you're dead and you're like, okay, all right, this is a cycle that we're on in order to do this thing really, really well. Yeah. And this is kind of where I want to end things. So you've had a really interesting journey. I don't know anyone who's had a journey quite like yours from, from college quarterback to corporate world, to starting your own business, starting your own podcast. I think a lot of people, my generation, younger, probably just people of all stripes, really admire the courage it takes to step out and do your own thing, to work for yourself, to kind of chart that uncertain path forward.

1:06:57So could you talk a little bit about the price that you paid during that journey? What has the cost been for you as you charted this uncertain path, this winding path forward?

1:07:09Ryan Hawk:Yeah. I mean, I think you have to get good at dealing with uncertainty. What I think about before I go to bed or what I think about when I wake up really early, I think about that all the time. I mean, we don't do long-term contracts. I don't get paid until after my speeches. That's my choice. That's not theirs. Basically, we have to do the work and earn it every single session. I would never lock people in. But what then you give up is you give up like guaranteed revenue. You give up certainty. I have people now who work for me. Their families are dependent on us having this work. And nobody's locked in beyond literally the next meeting.

1:07:50Ryan Hawk:And if that next meeting goes bad, they don't want to have to pay for that. So we are literally having to earn it every single day. That's how I've structured it because I just think that's the right way to do business is that you have to earn it every single time. Because in the keynote speaking world, I'm in these little mastermind groups. They go, you got to get paid in full before you get on the flight. I go, no, I do the opposite. I don't send an invoice until after I'm home, until afterwards, because you've got to earn it every single time. And so I do think about that at times of like, what if it all falls apart?

1:08:22Ryan Hawk:What if this whole thing dies. It could happen. I don't know. And so that's really, really scary. So the price is you have this kind of never ending productive paranoia that it could end at any moment. People could stop liking the podcast or the books, or they don't like the way that we do the things that we do. I don't know, like anything could happen. And I think about that every day, all the time. Jim Collins and I talked about it privately. I go, my own personal productive paranoia is that. My own family, first and foremost, and then the people that work for me and work on my team, their families too.

1:09:00Ryan Hawk:I'm responsible for that. And I feel that responsibility in a big way, it just never, ever goes away. And I think that's just part of the price, right? We get to do something insanely cool. It's the greatest gig in the world. We say that to each other all the time. With that said, there's still a big risk that people won't like it or they'll stop liking it. And so my message to them every single day is no matter what, no matter how good we get or how much we're impacting people in a positive way, we have to be getting better. We have to make sure that we're getting better every single session, every single meeting, every single podcast, whatever the thing is, we have to noticeably see improvement.

1:09:41Ryan Hawk:And to do that, we have to be brutally honest with each other, give each other tough feedback. Sometimes it stings, Sometimes it's hard, but that's the only way we're going to keep getting better. And so I think that's a pretty big price. The cool thing is the rewards better. It's a cool gig, dude. It is as cool as it gets. There's still risk and there's still fear and there's still a chance. But I also like our chances. I'm literally betting on us. I bet on us every single day with my family's livelihood, because if it goes bad, I have no money. I mean we save a lot but other than that that's all we got and so it's on us to keep getting better to keep Adding value, which is where we started this whole thing to other people's lives And if we do that, I like our chances if we don't Yeah, we'll get fired by everybody and we'll be done and we'll have to figure out what to do but Right now we're having way too much fun We're making such a difference in people's lives that yeah And just like eternally grateful for it and I think the reward is that we get to keep doing it So that's what juices us up to get after it every day Ryan Hawk.

1:10:46Dude. This has been great. This has been great. Thank you for joining me on the Learning Leader Show.

1:10:51Ryan Hawk:Dude. So even though we've never had a conversation like this one, when I texted you like, hey, do you want to do this? I'm very grateful that you said yes, but you were even better than I expected because I like that you are you and you never have ever tried to be somebody else. You bring this unique view of the world. You bring up some random dudes I've never heard of. I knew you would. you read these crazy books in history, which I love when I watch your videos because I always learn something and I laugh and I'm entertained. My kids laugh at your videos. That's impossible to do. That's impossible to do that, man.

1:11:25Ryan Hawk:So credit to you, man. I really, really appreciate you. This book is nowhere near as good if it weren't for you. I mean, I genuinely, you know, all of the work you've done, the editing, the research, the stories, the helping me if I'm doubting things, like all of that, you know, or responding at 445 in the morning, all that stuff. I really, really appreciate you, man. Very much. Thanks, man. I appreciate that.

1:11:51Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation about the price of becoming. Even though I was featured on this one, I still took some notes after listening, and I hope these are useful for you. One, the power of compounding. Loved when Dan talked about Shane Gillis. When you look at someone performing at the highest level, what you're seeing is the accumulation of thousands of hours of work that nobody witnessed. He makes it look effortless.

1:12:29Ryan Hawk:That's when you know he's put in the work. The process, that's the input. We all should start paying more attention to our inputs, to all of the work that nobody sees. And then no dabbling. Optionality is overrated. In a world of infinite choices, commit to something. Stop dabbling. Pick one thing you keep saying you're committed to and ask yourself honestly, am I all in or am I dabbling? How are you going to beef up your obituary? As Ed Latimore said to me, It's about making a full commitment or not doing it. It's 100 or it's zero. No, I'm kind of going to do it. It's either do it or don't. And then who's this book for?

1:13:16Ryan Hawk:This book was not written for people who need to be convinced that working hard or being consistent is important. Most of you already know that. This was written to inspire you to create a plan, to work a plan, and to be prepared for the inevitable adversity you're going to face. If you're an 8 or a 9 and you want to be a 10, then buy this book, The Price of Becoming. Read it and implement it. Email me, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from reading The Price of Becoming. I am so grateful for your support. Because of it, I get to spend my days doing what I love so much. And I will forever be grateful for you if you support also this book, The Price of Becoming.

1:14:05Ryan Hawk:Go to Amazon or learningleader.com and buy it today. Thank you so much.