703: Angela Duckworth - Why Grit Isn't Enough, Situation Over Willpower, How Belief Gets Borrowed, John Wooden's Socks, and How the Right People and Places Bring Out Your Best

19:25Ryan Hawk:My background before doing all this stuff, Angela, was in sales and I'd have like sales leaders, like the best ones would say, hey, get on the plane, go see them. It will make a difference. Even if it's for like an hour, you go do it. And so your story reminded me like you have situational agency here. When in doubt, get on the plane.

19:43Angela Duckworth:I mean, to be fair, he did send an email first, but yes, eventually he did get on a plane and, uh, you know, made the move. My father-in-law, my late father-in-law in two words of just say, show up, you know, show up, wedding, funeral, baseball game, I show up. I do think the lesson is profound, Ryan. I mean, you know, so often people are told, you got to control the controllables. I believe that. I think you should control the controllables. In fact, that's a great thing to live by, a great mantra to live by. I just want people to understand that the situation is included to me in the list of the controllables.

20:19Angela Duckworth:Because Ryan, when I was working on this book, and you know, it is based a lot on my research, which wasn't just the five years of writing the book, but the years that preceded that as well. I would say to people like, oh, I'm writing a book about the power of the situation and your power to change your situation. And immediately, almost before I could finish the sentence, neighbors, friends, interested colleagues would say, yeah, but you know, you can't, you know, most people can't change their situation. I can't, and they would just rattle off, oh, my mother-in-law lives here. Like I can't move because my mom, like my spouse says this, oh, my kids are enrolled.

20:53Angela Duckworth:Like here are all the reasons I can't change where I live. Here are all the reasons I can't change where I work. Here are all the reasons I can't change who I work with. Here are all the reasons that, like, I can't change my boss. Those sentences that come out of people's mouths are not incorrect. But what I think they're neglecting is the list of things that you can change. And if we just assume that the controllables are in our head, you know, our mindset, our goals, our attitude, then I think we never get to a better situation, right? I mean, if Leon Marchand said, well, I've got to control the controllables.

21:28Angela Duckworth:Like, I play six, then, you know, what can I control? Like, I could think about this differently. I can set a goal in my head. But what he did in one stroke, which is to change his situation, changed everything, including the thoughts that were in his head. So I think if you get the outside game right, if you control the controllables outside, you end up for free also to a great degree controlling the controllables inside you.

21:55Ryan Hawk:So that list of things you said, Angela, sounded like a bunch of excuses. And my friend Garen Stokes says, any excuse softens the character.

22:07Angela Duckworth:And it's just like, oh, that hurts, man. That's a good one. You're right.

22:11Ryan Hawk:Any excuse will soften the character because you could change any of those things. It might be hard. There might be friction. It might not be able to do today.

22:20Angela Duckworth:Correct.

22:21Ryan Hawk:I mean, these things can take time. Situational agency, though. We have it. It's on us to do something about it. Okay. I love John Wooden. Okay. Me too.

22:31Angela Duckworth:I have a feeling we love a lot of the same people.

22:33Ryan Hawk:Well, massive fan of your work. I don't want to make this weird, but so John Wooden, I just love you talking about him. I didn't even know this. He taught high school English for 14 years.

22:44Angela Duckworth:Can you believe that? Like what?

22:46Ryan Hawk:And he had like an apple on his desk, right? This whole thing about like physical reminder. So talk to me about this idea because I'm all about leadership and excellence and high standards. And so Wooden's one of the ultimate guys, but this is all about leadership and mentors. They teach, like they're teachers by example first. I remember the story of how the first day of practice, he would teach people how to put on their socks, right? So all these things, I love to hear your stories and history when it comes to John Wooden.

23:14Angela Duckworth:So for the very few who don't know, John Wooden tops the list of greatest coaches of all time. And I say that because go look up a bunch of lists. Like you'll see John Wooden at the top. He was the legendary coach of the UCLA men's basketball team at the time, a record 10 NCAA championships and coached many of the NBA greats, some of whom hardly got to see time on the floor because they were really bench warmers. But they were so good that when they got to the NBA, they were no longer on the bench. I mean, that was the elite level at which John's players played. John Wooden always thought of himself, first and foremost, as a teacher.

23:57Angela Duckworth:And that is why, yes, he did keep an apple on his desk to remind him. And in fact, that I think is very much related to his decision to be a teacher first. I mean, that was his first job and for more than a decade. When he thought about bringing out the best in his players, for one thing, he thought it was very much the lessons learned during practice. and very little the kind of screaming and yelling and sort of like hand waving that goes on like during an actual game, which is why it was his habit not to be courtside during games, but to be like high up in the bleachers, didn't want to be a distraction to his players because he had taught them what he had taught them during practice.

24:37Angela Duckworth:And that was for them to make decisions and to perform to the best that they could. I think the lesson that all of us need a teacher is profound and more than a few of John's players, who of course grew up not only to be NBA stars, but political leaders, many business leaders, fabulous exemplars of character, I would say, is that one of the lessons, because, you know, when you join John Wynn's team and you're an 18-year-old boy, you're really shaped, I think, by those four years under his wing. They learned that to be your very best in anything, basketball or anything else, you need to find a great teacher.

25:20Angela Duckworth:And so it's been a delight for me to go down the John Wooden rabbit hole, not only to read what Wooden wrote, but to read what his players wrote about life, about success. And I think that's a profound insight. Today, Ryan, I think we're in a little bit of a DIY culture. You know, I meet young people and they're like, I will say things like, why don't you give this person a call? I should tell them to get on a plane, by the way. But, you know, sometimes I start off with, you know, can you send them an email? Can you give them a call? These are sort of order of difficulty for a young adult today or a teenager.

25:51Angela Duckworth:And sometimes the response is like, well, I can just learn it on YouTube or Reddit or, you know, ask ChatGBT. And I don't think that any of those ways of do-it-yourselfing are going to get you as far as you want. I think they will get you somewhere. You know, if you don't know how to play the guitar and you watch a bunch of videos on YouTube, you can teach yourself a lot. But you will never become a great guitarist if you are by yourself trying to hone your craft. You need a teacher just the way that John Wooden's players needed him.

26:25Ryan Hawk:One of the things a great mentor and or teacher does for you, and this is from chapter eight, the Pygmalion effect, is self-confidence can sometimes be borrowed initially because somebody else that you respect and or admire believes in you. And so that's why it's good to have a John Wooden or others who are mentors, coaches. And then if we find ourselves in the position of being the mentor and or teacher, and we see something in somebody that we tell them, right, it's so powerful. Like we can use our power for good to create belief in somebody else. So I'd love to hear you talk about this on both sides, both as the person who maybe needs the confidence and gets some of it from a mentor, coach, leader, as well as, because you've played both roles, I assume, as well as the leader who can pour into others and create belief that maybe they don't even have yet.

27:22Angela Duckworth:Belief is borrowed more than you would think. I mean, the very word confidence suggests that it kind of springs from within. You know, I know I can do this. And in fact, that is what is uttered. I think I can do this. I think is elemental. Nobody tries hard at anything unless they think they can do this. So I was a moment ago saying that all of your urges and impulses come from your thoughts. Well, if you want to try hard somewhere in your head has to be the thought, I can do this, as opposed to the thought, I can't do this, because human beings are not irrational. And children and adults do not try to do things that are for them subjectively, at least impossible, infeasible.

28:03Angela Duckworth:Where does that thought come from? I think I can do this. I know I can do this. It so often comes from someone close to you, somebody you admire, somebody whose opinion you might respect more than your own judgment, your coach, your dad, your mom. For me, you asked me to think about this personally. I will say that when I was in high school, I was confident in many ways, but not as a writer. I was like a ditzy cheerleader having keg parties in my parents' house when they were away. So I was confident about that. But I wasn't like an intellectual and I didn't have any confidence in writing and not a whole lot of interest.

28:47Angela Duckworth:But I had an English teacher in 10th and 12th grade. So I had him twice through some, I don't know, fluke of scheduling. His name was Mr. Carr. And he changed my life because he believed in me. So he saw a writer in this ditzy cheerleader wearing short skirts and like planning keg parties. and, you know, he handed me books and he showed me great writing and he shared his passion. But he, in so many ways, you know, sometimes gestural, you know, sometimes the smile, sometimes just the time that he would take to read my writing and to write comments and to encourage me to improve it. It gave me the belief that I could maybe write something that somebody would want to read someday.

29:28Angela Duckworth:And by the time I graduated from high school, I didn't think of myself as a Ditsy cheerleader. I thought of myself as somebody who could probably make it at Harvard, where I was one of the very few students who, you know, all of us have to take, and I say all of us because regardless of where you go to college, you know, there's that dreaded freshman year required writing class that most students get out of the way and then they never look back. I was one of the very few students who signed up for a second semester. I was like, is there a sequel? You know, that's only because I had this belief in myself that came from Mr.

30:00Angela Duckworth:Carr. The research you mentioned, the Pygmalion effect, I think is almost like a parable for this. So there was a Harvard researcher, Bob Rosenthal, who also had this personal observation that so much of our self-confidence comes from other people. And he did an experiment where he randomly assigned young children at an elementary school to be identified as quote unquote gifted and talented by some test that he like literally made up out of whole cloth and just kind of told the teachers fictitiously that some of these kids are, they're bloomers. They're going to in your own classroom sometime this school year.

30:40Angela Duckworth:And I can't tell you when they're like going to distinguish themselves as being like the smartest kids. And here's a list of their names. But they were chosen at random. And these teachers were unaware of the ruse that was being set up for them. But what happened when these teachers were essentially given the belief that these kids were special? Well, they started acting differently around those kids. They called on them more often. They paid attention more to what the kids said. They encouraged them more. And what happened at the end of the year was that the kids who were identified at random as being special, as being gifted, ended up fulfilling that prophecy.

31:17Angela Duckworth:And it's called the Pygmalion effect after a Greek myth, Pygmalion the sculptor, who so believes that a statue that he has created is a real woman that, you know, the Greek gods helped bring the statue to life. And so it's basically the idea that self-confidence comes from the outside more than we would think. And Ryan, I haven't interviewed as many people as you have. I really like think in some ways we have the same job. I will say that of all of the people that I have interviewed, Olympic athletes, Olympic coaches, CEOs, world leaders, every person that I've interviewed has a story like I told you about Mr.

31:59Angela Duckworth:Carr. somebody who encouraged them, somebody who could see farther than they could. And so I think an important element of a situation that brings out your best is a situation that has not just one mentor, but maybe a chorus of mentors who are at critical periods encouraging you to do what you didn't think was possible. Yeah.

32:23Ryan Hawk:I mean, I get like goosebumps thinking of Ron Ollery, my high He would say things about what I was going to do on Friday nights playing quarterback as if, of course, it's going to happen. And I'm sitting here, you know, doubting it. And like, I don't know if I can do that, coach. And he's just like, well, what do you mean? This is like what's going to happen. And this is part of why I love studying leadership so much is because of that feeling. I'll never ever forget the feeling of somebody else having such belief and then actually surpassing that and having him be so like joyful and celebrating it.

33:00Ryan Hawk:I want to find a way to do that for other people. Like that is intoxicating to be able to. Right.

33:05Angela Duckworth:This is like magic.

33:06Ryan Hawk:Isn't it though? I mean, like you're, that's gotta be you now. Like you gotta be doing that for so many people. I mean, I'm sure you're still having others that are do it for you, but you're also the person who has some power and people look up to you. And so like, how do you use your power for good?

33:22Angela Duckworth:I'm glad you have that story. And I've never really been coached as you have as an athlete because our cheerleading team was not. Anyway, we got we had the short skirts and the tight sweaters. I'm not sure we had a lot more than that. But I was coached for a brief moment in time when I went to go visit Pete Carroll, the Seahawks. And I was there to visit him and interview him. He just sort of says out of the blue, like, oh, I want you to give a talk to the team. I was like, OK. And I had that point in my life, never talked to like an entire NFL team in one room. I expressed some version of insecurity, some version of I know how to give a talk at Harvard, but I don't know how to give a talk here.

34:04Angela Duckworth:And he coached me. I mean, he coached me for like five minutes. I mean, he just gave me the Pete Carroll treatment. It's like, it's got to be great. Angela Duckworth, you know grit. You know what these guys, and by the end, I was like, yeah. I mean, I was practically jumping with enthusiasm at the opportunity, and then, like you said, it's like, then it happens, and you're like, whoa, and I really think it changes you, so I haven't had the experiences that you've had. I haven't had as many, but in one way or another, you know, Mr. Carr and other mentors did give me a model for what mentors do, and when I think about advice for mentors because, yeah, now I'm 56.

34:40Angela Duckworth:I don't wear short skirts anymore. I'm not a cheerleader. And I am in the position of mentoring. I think in particular, my students, my graduate students, my postdoctoral fellows, as they're called. I think one of the most important things that mentors can do, other than just repeatedly affirming to that mentee, that protege, that yes, they can. I do think that's maybe the first lesson, right? It's like a half-filled helium balloon confidence. It needs to be batted up in the air again and again. And it's not that you need your mentor once. It's that you need them on all the days, including the bad ones.

35:15Angela Duckworth:But I think another thing, another, I guess I'll say I'm working on it as a mentor, is to share the missteps, to share the mistakes, to share the discouragements. I'll give you one tangible example. So my day job is not writing books or having conversations like this. My day job is to transact scientific research and to publish it in journals. And usually the journals that I try to publish in reject like over 90 percent of the proposed articles. And so that means that, you know, you yourself are going to get rejected a lot. And that is exactly what happens. But when I get a rejection, the first thing I do is I forward that email.

36:00Angela Duckworth:that really long email that says that my work is both boring and unbelievable. I'm like, how can it be boring? But anyway, these are sometimes like eight page single space, like this is terrible. Let me tell you why emails that end with like, sorry, you're not wanted in this journal. I forward it to my team because these younger people need to see me fail. They need to know that I also get discouraged. So I don't try to say like, oh, and I'm, you know, I tell them I'm angry. I'm disappointed. I sometimes say, like, I don't know what to do. But because I get up again, which I do, and because I find another way, and maybe not in the moment, maybe not the same day, but eventually, I think I'm also modeling for them what I want them to do.

36:44Angela Duckworth:So, you know, as a mentor, I think we have a tremendous opportunity to share our stories. And not just the success stories, but also the failure stories. And, you know, I think you'll agree with me, those are often the stories that do reveal your character.

36:57Ryan Hawk:and sometimes especially with all the success you've had you can become less relatable and

37:04Angela Duckworth:anytime you can really think of myself as successful can i just say like it's very kind of you to say and i know it sounds like false humility but i don't actually like wake up in the morning and think wow i'm so successful or or that i'm influential like i just i don't i really don't i mean i wake up in the morning and i you know look at the ceiling but how many

37:25Ryan Hawk:times has someone emailed you, told you in person, has cried to you on the side of a stage and told you how grit has changed their life?

37:35Angela Duckworth:It has happened more than once.

37:37Ryan Hawk:I bet it's happened a billion times.

37:41Angela Duckworth:It's happened many times.

37:42Ryan Hawk:And we all have different definitions of success. And I don't necessarily even love that word. But to me, what I would say is you putting this giant positive dent in the world. So that could be success because of the impact that you've had on so many people in a positive way. So I feel like that's a good definition of success of such a positive, not just a dent, but a positive dent. A positive dent in the universe. Yeah.

38:12Angela Duckworth:I mean, I look and you're doing it now, like you're telling me, like, but I just have, do you feel that way? I mean, do you wake up and think like, oh, I'm having a, I mean, it's not that I feel like that's an incorrect statement. It's just like, it's not the first thing on my mind. I mean, what happens to you when you wake up in the morning?

38:30Ryan Hawk:I would say certainly there's different levels to this. I've not written a book like Grit, but this is not what I expect to talk about, but I love it that you're asking this question. The feeling that I get when someone from Iowa, just an example from like the other day, sends you an email and says, hey, your podcast was our family dinner table conversation on Monday night. Husband, wife, kids. And it brought out an incredible conversation within our family. Thank you. That is like a definition of success, right? And a positive impact on a family. Like heart swells. Yeah, exactly. I call it the juice.

39:10Ryan Hawk:And I'd say, this is the juice. Thank you. This is fuel. This is the fuel. So, again, you probably have had that times a billion. So what does that feel like? I mean, how does it make you feel when you see the positive impact you're having on families, on people, on lives in general, that you're changing them for the better?

39:29Angela Duckworth:I also have a story. I guess it is a story of what you're saying. And a young man named Bo reaches out and asks if I can walk to work together because he lives drivable. He knows to show up. He didn't have to take a plane, but he was like, I'm going to show up on your doorstep. Can I just talk to you about how important grit has been to me? And maybe give me some advice on what I'm going to do next. And so, yeah, I did have that. I like that juice. I think I might steal that from you, Ryan. And I guess, what does it feel like? I mean, yeah, there is a gratification. I mean, I feel like the highest moments of human experience are when you feel like you are doing something excellently, something that maybe you trained your whole life to do.

40:16Angela Duckworth:and it is making a positive dent in the universe. It is helping a dad in Iowa or a kid named Bo. Well, he's in his 30s, but to me, he's a kid because he's considerably younger than I am. It is that combination. And one of the literatures that I found myself just fascinated by, because I think it's kind of been forgotten, when I was researching the book was Viktor Frankl's writing. A lot of people know about Viktor Frankl because he wrote Men's Search for Meaning, which in my class at Wharton, I often ask, you know, like, what's the most influential book that you've ever read? And very often it is Men's Search for Meaning.

40:56Angela Duckworth:Viktor Frankl made the claim after he survived Auschwitz, after he went on to a very distinguished career authoring, I think, more than 36 books on what we really want in life. His answer was not money, not status, but meaning. And I think he was talking about those moments where you think, I had a purpose. One of the things that I think is really important to remember about this message, because, again, if you only think about Viktor Frankl as like, oh, he survived Auschwitz, and I guess the moral of that story was that human beings can overcome any adversity. The deeper message, I think, Viktor Frankl would say, is that to live the greatest life possible is to actualize all of our potential in service of other people.

41:44Angela Duckworth:He called it self-transcendence. And so, yeah, I think I do feel that it's like there's a string in you that vibrates where like you're like, oh, yeah, I'm doing what I do best and I'm doing it in a way that has tangibly helped one other person. I think I've had the same experience as you, Ryan, and I don't know about you, but I can speak for myself. The numbers don't matter. Like, it's not like I feel like four times as good if there are four dads in Iowa or like the numbers don't matter. It's just to feel like you've helped one person, I think is what any of us would live for.

42:17Ryan Hawk:Yeah, when it comes to defining your core, like individual purpose in life, I believe my purpose is to inspire others to value and pursue excellence. excellence.

42:28Angela Duckworth:That's your top level goal, as I would call it, right? Like the mission. That is my mission. That is my purpose.

42:33Ryan Hawk:I believe that's what I was put here to do. And so I think anyone's purpose, whatever it is, I think it's worth it to do the work to define what your purpose is. I believe it has to involve impacting other people. Actualize our potential, right? That's like pursuit of excellence too. But to me, I just think if you're going to set out to do anything, the juice, like the fuel, the thing that gets you up even when you don't feel like it is my purpose has a way to positively impact other people. And that, yeah, like that's what I feel like you've done. Yeah.

43:07Angela Duckworth:I mean, it's, it's a, it's a high compliment. I'm not going to put myself in the company of, you know, Viktor Frankl. And if anybody wants to read his like other 30 something books and documentaries and so forth, I mean, it's a very deep well. One of the things you'll discover is that this phrase self-actualization, which you just mentioned, Ryan, I mean, that was a different psychologist. Abraham Maslow, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like the top is self-actualization, achieving your potential. And Frankel and Maslow debated each other vigorously in public and in private. This is now decades and decades ago.

43:40Angela Duckworth:And eventually Maslow conceded that Frankel was right, that self-actualization for purely personal ends. You write down all your goals and your personal bests and things that you're going to win on these medals and these achievements. This is what my resume is going to look like. If it doesn't have a purpose beyond the self, if it is not aimed at, as Frank would often say, aimed at something other than yourself beyond the self-purpose, then you will find yourself unfulfilled. And eventually these two great psychologists writing about these topics in the 40s and the 50s, they did come to the same conclusion.

44:15Angela Duckworth:Like I said, I think Frankel got there first. But Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, if you look at his last writing before he died, really had a level above self-actualization and that was self-transcendence. And he said it in exactly those words. So I really couldn't agree with you more. And in some ways, the insight is obvious, but in some ways not. I mean, I can remember a day I was walking to a talk that I was giving for a group of orthopedic surgeons, believe it or not. I am not an orthopedic surgeon. I never went to medical school. But I was asked to give this talk by a physician who had treated my daughter and was being kind of honored toward the end of his great career.

44:59Angela Duckworth:And I remember when I got the invitation that it conflicted with travel, that I would actually like to change a flight and not go to Boston. And it was a pain. I was like, oh. And I changed my flight and I showed up. I gave the talk and I did it to the best of my ability. and on the walk home, because it was local, University of Pennsylvania, medical schools, the host of it. And so I was walking home along this river in Philadelphia called the Schuylkill River. And I'll never forget the feeling that I did my best. I think I did well. I did what I do, which is I'm a psychologist and I shared my findings and I did it for the right reasons and that it was appreciated.

45:40Angela Duckworth:And it really was for me like the high watermark of experience. It's exactly what Viktor Frankl and Abraham Maslow, I think, were describing. You are performing at your best, and palpably, you feel like that is in service to someone other than you.

45:57Ryan Hawk:God, so good. How do you—this is a real question. How do you stay so humble?

46:03Angela Duckworth:Oh, God. Okay, I'm going to tell you that—I don't know how humble I am, but I will tell you, the image of humility is like you're on your knees. and I don't know if that's how that's the image I have. What do you what is the image that you have for humility? I have like this kind of image of like I have this image of being on my knees.

46:24Ryan Hawk:No I think it's just not being a self-centered person. It's the opposite of being self-centered. It's having emotional intelligence and awareness that I am a person in the world like others. Now I'm going to try my very best to leave a positive dent, right? But with that said, I'm still just another person here. No better, no worse. I treat the CEO the same as the janitor, like all this stuff. But like I sense more so in you than a lot of, even before we started recording, like a very, very genuine humility about you. And so whenever I see that, I'm just curious to figure out like, is it her family?

47:05Ryan Hawk:Is it like, what is it that keeps her humble? Or maybe you even have like a, an actual, especially like I said, when you've had the success you've had, you've been right a lot. It could be easy for people to stop telling you the truth or to kind of edit what they're saying so that I want to stay in Angela's good graces, right? Like that happens as you become more known and have the type of experiences that you had. So I'm just curious how you've stayed humble.

47:32Angela Duckworth:Let's assume that you're right. So let's just take it as a given and go from there because we could certainly debate that. And my image of being on my knees, like, is like whatever, it's the image that leaves to mind. You know, maybe we have different images, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is not like letting your own personhood, like, take up the entire field of view, right? It's really seeing yourself, you know, as part of a larger whole. I mean, I want to share with you, Ryan, that the humility I have about this book, for example, is in part because it really did bring me to my knees.

48:05Angela Duckworth:And maybe that's why the image leaps to mine. I mean, I failed writing it the first time I tried. I had a contract that began shortly after the around the same time as like the opening story of, you know, the snorkeling. I mean, the plan was that I was supposed to, like, write a book in a year, which is about how long it took me to write Grit. And I thought, you know, I already wrote a book, and that was really hard, so maybe the second one will be easier. And also, just like with Grit, it's my own research. So I'm not really, like, doing original research. I'm trying to communicate it. How hard can that be?

48:39Angela Duckworth:But when I say I failed, it was brought to my knee. I mean, Ryan, I don't know that I can adequately express to you how devastating it was. to wake up every day, seven days a week, usually before dawn, and sit down in my home office and try to take all my notes and index cards, Post-its and Google Docs, and like, just make a little progress. And the sabbatical, meaning, you know, I wasn't teaching, I didn't have all the research responsibilities I usually did, You know, the clock was ticking down. And I realized with great dread and anxiety that I wasn't going to make it, that the year was going to be over, and that I was given this golden opportunity, and that I had squandered it, and that I had failed.

49:26Angela Duckworth:And I'll tell you, Ryan, I called the publisher and my agent, and I told them that I was giving up and that they should have all their money back and tell me if I need to pay interest or how that would work. and you might not be surprised, they were like, well, why don't we consider it a pause? I was like, well, remote controls have one button for pause and stop. And if you want to think about it that way, go for it. I will say that the adversity, the failure, I mean, the real failure taught me something. And not just because I did get up off my knees and I did after months and a better situation, which I recruited additional editorial support and mentors to sort of get me back on track.

50:08Angela Duckworth:I do think it taught me something that I have never experienced before. Because, Ryan, before that experience personally, to me, burnout and imposter syndrome, real lack of confidence was an abstraction. And I knew it as a psychological scientist knows it. I taught it as a professor teaches it in business school. I had never experienced it. And now I was experiencing it firsthand. And, you know, not eating, not sleeping. I mean, it was really a dumpster fire moment in my life. And I think the humility that you might be, you know, if you're right and I'm coming across as somebody who is like unbelievably grateful for being here presenting to you something that was very, very hard to do.

50:52Angela Duckworth:It's probably from that experience. Like I would be I would be just glib and I would be lying if I didn't say that I don't have any scars, you know, war injuries from this. But it did teach me a lot. And I do think it taught me about what strength really is, because I don't think those moments of weakness, doubt are unique to anyone. And I think it has taught me that grit and getting situated, it is a journey and it's not a straight line. So I hope I'm holding on to that humility. Honestly, Ryan, I mean, when I wake up in the morning, a few things happen. I have this painting from my mom. It is literally above my bed.

51:31Angela Duckworth:And it's the first thing I see when I open my eyes. That painting I talk about in the book, it reminds me not only of my 91-year-old mother, it reminds me of how hard it was to write this book. And I am grateful every day for having persevered and for being here. I'm like, wow, this is, I get to talk to Ryan about a book I have written, as opposed to sitting down at a desk to a blank screen for a book I have not yet written. So maybe what you're hearing is gratitude.

52:00Ryan Hawk:That's very cool. I love the way you do it. Well, as you probably know, and I've heard this before, Angela, there are only two types of people in the world. Those who are humble and those who are about to be humbled.

52:16Angela Duckworth:I have never heard that before, Ryan. Really? I wholeheartedly agree, though. Yeah, no, I'm keeping that one. That's a keeper.

52:23Ryan Hawk:Yeah. Well, I remember it. I have been humbled. I remember whenever I get a little bit over my skis and think like, I'm about to be humbled here. Something's coming. You know, like I remember something, something's coming. I'm thinking I'm a hotshot or whatever. It's a good reminder, but I love this kind of shift towards gratitude because I've found that to be a commonality among leaders who sustain excellence that can do it over the long term. And the type of humans I want to hang out with and be around have this genuine gratitude for what they have and what they've gone through and they can look back on it and be thankful for it.

52:57Ryan Hawk:I could talk to you all day, but I know we're short on time. I have one more question that is about you. And this is called the champagne question. It comes from my friend, Jason Gaynard. And it makes me think every time I ask it and answer it. And that is this fast forward to exactly one year from today. Okay. One year from today, you are surrounded by all of your loved ones, your mom and your kids, your husband, like you're all there, all your staff, maybe whoever. And you guys are all popping bottles and spraying it all over each other. You're celebrating. Oh, that's the champagne part. Exactly.

53:31Ryan Hawk:Or grape juice, whatever you want. You're celebrating like crazy, right? Picture a locker room after Pete Carroll wins the Super Bowl.

53:38Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

53:39Ryan Hawk:My question to you is, what are you celebrating?

53:44Angela Duckworth:hmm a year from now surrounded by everyone i love the most what am i celebrating i think i will mostly be celebrating and i hope it doesn't sound can't because it's sincere i hope i'm celebrating them you know like i think as we get older without even trying at least for me like i there's this like transition. I know 56 isn't 106 or 91 like my mom, but I really feel like I'm entering a chapter where my job is maybe a version of what you just said. I mean, my job is to get some young psychologist to be her or his very best and to like seed the spotlight. You know, my daughters are in their young 20s.

54:33Angela Duckworth:What they can do in the next 10 years is far greater than what I can do probably, at least in many ways. So I'm hoping a year from now and longer, I hope I gracefully go into this next chapter. I don't know that we all do go gracefully into the chapter. It's sometimes called, I don't know how familiar you are with like the Erickson stages of life. It's kind of this old psychoanalytic theory that people don't talk about very much, but it says that like life has these natural chapters and, you know, there's the age of industriousness, like that's where we learn to work hard. And, you know, there's several stages of life, I think maybe seven of them.

55:07Angela Duckworth:And the stage that I'm supposed to be in chronologically is called generativity. And it really is about asking, with all the things that you've learned, how can you help the next generation do better than you've done? I hope that that's where I am, you know, not just a year from now, but longer. I see stories of that not happening, and I really don't want that to happen. Like, my students should excel me. They should be better than me. They should be on podcasts. They should be interviewed by people like you. I hope to step out of the limelight.

55:39Ryan Hawk:Really? Yeah. Would you miss that?

55:44Angela Duckworth:I think so. But can you imagine just, like, hanging on and just being, like, you know—

55:50Ryan Hawk:You're still, like, you're literally in the middle of your prime, though.

55:52Angela Duckworth:Well, no, I'm not retiring, Ryan. That's what I'm saying. Like, so you'd be in the spotlight. Yeah. Yeah. But can't I, can't I even now, I mean, arguably in the prime of my career, right? I forget things, but the brain is still working, right? So, but can't I begin to think for every project, how does this, in the way, by the way, I think that comes natural to coaches, how can this project not only bring out the best in this person, but can it be a real step toward their becoming great? I think that center of gravity is really where my energy should be. By the way, the work's going to get done because all these great people are going to do it.

56:33Angela Duckworth:But I think it is different from when you are proving yourself. The weight is on your shoulders. The light is on you. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's too early to try to make the people that I'm mentoring more important than I am. Do you think it's too early?

56:49Ryan Hawk:I don't think it's an either or. I think it's an and thing because your door is going to be continually beaten down to have you come speak.

56:59Angela Duckworth:Oh, I don't know, Ryan. You never know.

57:01Ryan Hawk:I do not believe you. If you, if you're telling me that's not happening, I just do not.

57:07Angela Duckworth:Okay. Well, I'll let you know it a year, but yeah, the door, the door, especially with the new work, because you have the combo grits, not enough.

57:14Ryan Hawk:You have the combo with the situated to that. Yeah. I just think there's just no way that it's not going to continue to happen probably for quite a long time. So really, it's just about your preference and choice and how much you want to travel and do all that stuff. Do you like getting up on stages and speaking? Is that a fun thing for you to do?

57:31Angela Duckworth:I bet you do, and I do too, right? I'm right about you. You like it because it just feels incredibly gratifying, like you're in the flow state.

57:39Ryan Hawk:Austin Kleon told me people love getting to experience someone who's fully activated. And I think being on stage is one of those things because you can see the head nods in the eyes. You do occasionally have the side of the stage conversations where people get emotional. And that is called full activation mode, making a positive dent, making a difference, living in purpose. What's better than that?

58:04Angela Duckworth:It's like all the arrows are lined up and they're all going the right way. That's you, though.

58:08Ryan Hawk:You like that, I have to assume, right? Yeah, no, I do.

58:10Angela Duckworth:How much do you do it? Okay, well, I'll answer the question of how often I do it, but I just want to say when I was a little girl, I mean, I'm old enough to have watched Donnie and Marie Osmond. And I remember saying out loud what I thought was obvious, was like, I want to be there. My parents didn't understand. They were like, what do you mean? I was like, I want to be Marie Osmond. I want to be the one, like, dancing around in a skirt and holding a microphone. And it's not because I had a whole lot of talent and never pursued that, by the way. But yeah, I guess I must love to be on stage in a very deep way that goes all the way back.

58:43Angela Duckworth:Right now, I teach at Wharton, so I'm on stage in front of my classroom. In terms of giving talks to audiences, maybe once or twice a month, I try to do it not as often as I'm asked. Because, Ryan, I think my identity, there's our top-level goal. I agree with you. It's very worthwhile to write it down and take the time to really hone those words because it will be clarifying not only to others but to you. I think reflecting on who we are at our core, my core identity professionally is as a psychological scientist and not as a speaker and not even as a book writer, but somebody whose job it is, is to produce insights about human nature.

59:29Angela Duckworth:so the time on stage is for me often the flow state and i do feel fulfilled because i feel like i'm making a positive death in the universe and i've done it and i've gotten a lot of reps and i feel like i'm not bad at it but if you took away my research and you said okay imagine a world where that's all you did that would not be who i am yeah it's an and thing it's a great combo

59:55Ryan Hawk:of things. So it's very cool.

59:57Angela Duckworth:Thank you.

59:58Ryan Hawk:This is so much fun. The book's called Situated. Find the people in places that bring out your best. Not surprising. It's going to go crazy once this thing gets out.

1:00:07Angela Duckworth:Ryan, you are too kind. Seriously. You're like, now I feel like I'm 10 feet tall, but thank you. I feel like I'm with Pete Carroll.

1:00:15Ryan Hawk:Well, thanks. He's awesome. I'm just telling you exactly what I think and believe. And I appreciate you letting me chase down my curiosity with great rigor today because you're, you're someone I've looked up to for a very long time. And people say you shouldn't meet like your heroes, but you know, I found that it's cool when those people are wrong. And so, uh, thank you so much for doing this. I would love to keep doing it and do it like

1:00:38Angela Duckworth:every certain amount of time that goes by.

1:00:40Ryan Hawk:It would be fun to just kind of see where you're at because we could, I literally had probably another 15 stories from your book that we did not talk about. So the book is packed.

1:00:50Angela Duckworth:I had like 20 questions for you that I suppressed because I was like, I'm supposed to be talking about my book. So I probably shouldn't be asking Ryan what he thinks. Those are the best conversations though, right?

1:01:00Ryan Hawk:That's the best.

1:01:00Angela Duckworth:Those are the best. I should have asked them.

1:01:02Ryan Hawk:No, no, no, no. Like what we just did is the best. It's my favorite thing to do. So thank you for letting me kind of run it. This is so much fun. And like I said, I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress.

1:01:12Angela Duckworth:A hundred percent. It's good to meet your friends. So I don't want to consider myself a hero, but yeah, no, this was like a hundred percent fun. Thank you for everything, your curiosity. city. And also like you were really prepared. And as we all know, that is so much of a good experience. So anyway, I appreciate it.

1:01:29Ryan Hawk:Thank you. It means a lot.

1:01:34Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with the legendary Angela Duckworth. A few takeaways from my notes audit one goal you're grinding on and ask whether it's an effort problem or a situational problem. If you've been trying harder for months with nothing to show, maybe you should change something outside of yourself. That could be the room, the people, or the routine. Again, it's all about the situation and our personal situational agency.

1:02:18Ryan Hawk:Love that phrase. And then how about the Marchand move, right? He's doing great in France, one of their best swimmers. And yet he decides to make a move to put himself in a better environment with a better coach, better systems, better teammates, right? That would force him to level up. So in your life, identify the person who is best in the world at what you are trying to learn and take a step towards them, even if It's just initially one email. But then let's take the next step and get on the plane and go see them. And then purpose. I love this part of the conversation with Angela. Write down your own purpose.

1:03:00Ryan Hawk:I stated that mine is to inspire others to value and pursue excellence. It's all about actualizing our potential. I ask you, what is your purpose? What type of impact are you trying to have on other people? Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Angela Duckworth. I think she'll help you become a much more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show. You rate it, hopefully five stars.

1:03:37Ryan Hawk:You write a thoughtful review by doing all of that. You are giving me the opportunity to have a conversation like this, which is one of the coolest I've ever had. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.