707: Andy Stanley & Sam Kaufman - Problems to Solve, Tensions to Manage, The 3 Questions Behind Every Great Decision, and The 7 Essentials of Enduring Leadership (What Great Leaders Do)

23:42Isn't it easier for him to say, oh, just make that sucker huge, man. Like, just go for it. Yeah, no, it was easier, but he had enough insight into what he had experienced where we were in a rental situation before that. And he had enough confidence, I guess, in me. He just thought, if you're going to be there, this is your thing. Like, you're going to spend the rest of your career there to just go for it. And that was based a bit on his experience as a pastor and his experience with other pastors. So again, he had a lot of knowing without knowing how he knew.

24:16Ryan Hawk:So leadership is about decision-making and you're always having to make big calls. I read about your framework behind big decisions and there's these three questions. I'd love for you to kind of expand on them. What's considered impossible to do? What would the next leader do? And what would a great leader do? The three questions. Can you tell me how you got to this framework to ask these questions behind all major decisions? These are the three questions that have kind of chased me around. One of them since 1992, Joel Barker wrote a book called Future Edge. I think it's out of print, but they retitled it.

24:50And it was about paradigms. And that's where I bumped into the first question is, what in your industry is considered impossible to do, but if it could be done, would fundamentally change your business? What do your peers think in your business or industry, they consider it's impossible to do, but if it could be done, it would fundamentally change your industry. That question has been framed and sitting on someplace in my office ever since then, because it's a question that forces me outside. And this was the point that he was making outside my framework or paradigm, what's considered impossible to do, because somebody is always messing with the rules.

25:24And the reason it's so important for leaders to keep that question front and center, in my opinion, is not that they are going to answer the question, but if they don't know what the question is, when somebody else begins answering it, they're not going to recognize, hey, we're about to experience a paradigm shift and we need to be on the front end, not the back end. And what generally happens when something shifts like that in an industry or a business or even a company, the naysayers are immediately critical. They latch onto the current paradigm, the current model, the current everything, and push back against the future.

25:59Meanwhile, while somebody, again, they're messing with the rules. So that question has been front and center for us ever since. And I tell a couple of stories in the book about where we felt like we were in on the front end of at least one major paradigm shift as it relates to churches. But we were asking the question and it was actually a leadership shift. The second one came from Andrew Grove's book, Only the Paranoid Survive, which is the greatest book title for a leadership chip book, Only the Paranoids Survive. And Andy Grove was the third employee of Intel and the third CEO of Intel. And he tells the story about, you know, they were the number one chip manufacturer in the world.

26:40They almost had 100 % of the chip manufacturing business in the 70s. And then in the 80s, the Japanese got into that market and they couldn't keep up because Japanese were funded by the Japanese government versus, you know, an American company. So that's what the book is about. Where the question came from, he tells a story about after they tried and tried and tried to keep up with the Japanese, they just couldn't. And so they were trying to figure out what to do. And he turns to the CEO, Gordon Moore, and he says, if the board kicked us out and brought in a new team, what would the new team do?

27:15And he said, Gordon Moore answered immediately, the new team would get us out of the chip business. And Andrew Grove says, well, then why don't we get up, walk out the door, come back in and do it ourselves? So that's where the question, what would the next leader do? And I'm telling you, it's a painful, somewhat terrifying question to ask because there is almost instant clarity when you ask that question, because I love our people. I love our model. I love all the things we've created. But as they begin to age and as they begin to get a little tired, there's an emotional attachment, which in business and organizational life is an unhealthy attachment.

27:54But the new people coming in, they're like, I don't have any emotional connection to any of this. And it's clear to me what needs to happen. So what would the next leader do? That question has helped me make the most difficult personnel decisions I've had to make in 31 years. Because every once in a while, there's somebody you love, but they're just not keeping up and they can't keep up. But you love them. you appreciate them, you have history with them, there's an emotional connection. But the next person would move that person or move that person out of the organization because the organization is more important than anybody in the organization.

28:27And that's true of all organizations. Then the third question, what would a great leader do? I mean, it's sort of the title of the book, but this is the question that I, again, those first two questions, they are framed in my office and have been for years. What would a great leader do is literally paint it on the walls in multiple of our office suites because I want this in front of our employees at all time. Like, okay, I know what you're expected to do. You know what everybody else would do. You know what industry standards are. But before you pull the trigger, if you were a great leader, I mean, world-class, a selfless, others first, the organization first, extraordinary integrity, be, what would a, at least pause and ask the question, what would a great leader do?

29:15And that question lifts us above the circumstances of our leadership, because when we're trying to make decisions or consider options, we are laser focused on the options in front of us. But sometimes the best option isn't immediately obvious. So what would a great leader do forces me to address my selfishness, my dishonesty with why are we really doing this? and this may come across as simplistic. If a leader does what a great leader would do, they are in fact a great leader. Great is as great does. That's how we know who the great leaders are. So those are the three questions I've kept front and center for many, many years.

29:56And if I go there, I do better. When I forget, I pay for it. Sorry, Ryan, you're speaking to my soul right now. So I just, I have to interrupt. We're a talent and consulting business. So I don't know if you read the news at all, but there's this thing called AI that's coming around. Oh, yeah. And it's really changing what people consider possible or impossible. Yep. And so we are in the middle of a tornado of transformation inside of our business and in the market around us. And so that's an amazing framework that I can't wait to give to my leaders. Yeah, we just, this morning, We had a leadership lab that we did for all of our partners and our staff all over the city and the country.

30:40And we brought in Kerry Newhoff to talk specifically about AI and the implications for the local church. And it was phenomenal because there's implications for everything. So you're exactly right. There was the Industrial Revolution. There was social media. And in both of those instances, it took a long time for the laws and society to catch up with the negative ramifications for both child labor laws and now what's happening with children. As you know, the same is going to be true for AI, but to try to get ahead knowing they're going to be extraordinary positive things and potentially negative things.

31:15And for those of us who are in the people business, we've got to pay attention to that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other part that you said that just really resonated was just, we write our values on the wall too, Andy. And so we run our whole business to those values. We don't have what would a great leader do. There's room somewhere on a wall for that. Yeah, there is. There is. But you know, you got to keep your messages tight. You know, you got to, ours are everyone matters. We take care of each other. Leadership is here to serve. High character and hard work above all else. And always know where you stand.

31:45And so for us, that's our actual explanation of who we want every person in our business to be and the definition of our leadership as well and you said things like humility i'm like okay we don't say it as explicitly so i think there's an opportunity for us to think about how we we ask the question but we want all of our people to you know again in a practical way think about how they could be the

32:07Ryan Hawk:best leader possible every single day yeah love it so cool annie you had a a tough decision to make earlier on in your career when you resigned from your dad's church after a decade and you have kids and diapers, Sandra's pregnant with your third. The most uncertain season of my life is, I believe what you wrote. What made you make that call? Yeah. So, um, we didn't have insurance. She's uninsurable because she's pregnant. This is, you know, 30 years ago. I'm uninsurable because the new baby's going on my insurance. So we could get health insurance for our two little ones. And Sandra and I were uninsurable.

32:47That was the message we kept getting. And we didn't have a job and I'd quit the job. So it's all, you know, it's all kind of on me. And then we started the church and anybody who started anything knows you're never finished. I mean, it's, it's constant. So when we launched the church, I was working all the time and I had very good work life balance up until that point because that was what was modeled for me with my dad. But it was not going well. And so I came home one day and I said to Sandra, okay, just don't hold back. By this time, we have three kids, two in diapers. One was almost out, and I'm working constantly, you know, and I want to be the last person to leave the office, you know, all the stuff.

33:29I said, what do you need from me? Just tell me, I want to fix this. She said, I just need you to be home between four and 4.30. Just, you can leave as early as you want in the morning, but by four o 'clock, I am done. My energy, it's gone with the kids. I'm like, okay. So I told our staff, hey, I'm probably going to be the first to leave the office. So people would say, hey, can I meet you after work? I said, no, before work. So I would have two breakfasts, you know, how you just, because the morning was mine, but I needed to be home and stay home, not come home and then go run off to a meeting or something.

34:02So for about 10 years, that was my routine. And I don't recommend this. And I talk about this in the book at the end of the book. I said, I kind of made a deal with God. I don't recommend making a deal with God. I don't think God makes deals. But my thought was, God, I can only give you about 40 hours or 45 hours a week, and I gotta be home. And so whatever you can build with 45 of my hours, I will be content with that. but I'm going to cheat work. I'm not going to cheat home anymore. And so that was a decision. Our staff understood that. I encouraged them to make the same decision. I'm like, look, we're for families.

34:40We're for what's happening at home. We can't be exceptions to the rule. We're supposed to be examples of the rule. And that not only did something for us and our marriage and our family, but it really did set a standard for our organization going forward. And we've been known since day one as we are a family-friendly organization. We work hard. We're extremely busy. But at the end of the day, I want kids to grow up and love the local church. And I want staff members' kids to grow up and love the local church, not resent it. So I call that the best leadership decision I ever made was basically I'm going to cheat work.

35:19I'm not going to cheat home. And I will be content with the output and the product as a result. And the other thing that happened, and I talk about this in the book, you know, everybody knows this. If you have an hour to get something done, it takes an hour. If you have two hours, it takes two. Well, I became very efficient in my work because I had a deadline. I had to walk out the door. I was so much more efficient and everything got done. Not everybody was happy because everybody, you know, I didn't meet with everybody that wanted to meet with me, but I made that decision. I was 37. I was 38 because that was 95, 96.

35:56I was 38, and now I'm 68, and best leadership decision I ever made. And I think it's very applicable to the time, too. People now, I mean, so many virtual meetings. They're on Zoom calls all day. Busy is what people aspire to. You don't regret enjoying going home. It's a good thing. And now I've got three kids. They're all grown. They're all married. They all have kids, and they're all working, and they're hard workers, they remember. This comes up in conversation as they're trying to navigate that same complexity with two, you know, everybody's all, six of them have jobs and they've got kids.

36:34And I'm like, okay, you know how this goes. There's, it's not a sacrifice, it's an investment. And if you want what we have now as a family, as I say in the book, it's the law of the harvest. You sow, you reap, and then you're 50 and you get one shot at this. So you don't want to miss this one.

36:55Ryan Hawk:You and Sander also wrote a parenting book that I know Sam and his wife, Jenna, have implemented into their household, which was really cool with their four kids to hear how they've done this. Sam, can you go into that? I love our parenting book so much. I loved it too, Andy. I loved it too. Again, our company, our purpose is to develop our people personally, professionally, and financially. I think when I think about the, what I've learned from you over the last eight years of knowing who you are. You've helped me personally, you've helped me professionally, and you've helped me religiously. So I think it's just amazing your range in leadership and how you're able to bring it into all circles.

37:32There's times where I see you in leadership talking about personal, and I think there's times where I see you in a church talking about leadership, and it's just beautiful the way you bring it all together. You know what, Sam? I need you to call me about maybe every other week and just give me a pep talk. Yeah. I'm happy to. Hey, we're, we're, we're here, Andy. We're right, we're right next door. I live in Roswell. So North Point is literally down the street. So what you wrote, you know, you wanted to have a lifelong relationship with your kids. And so I, I, this is where I actually do want your advice.

38:03I have a question for you. I have four children. They're 12, 11, about to be 10 and seven. And so we've had them in like five and a half years. They're, they're all about to enter into that coaching phase that you talk about in your book. Now all of yours are in the friendship phase, right? So I was just wondering if you could go back and tell Andy when he was approaching that time of his kids' lives, what would you really try to get the most right now? Because again, the playbook of getting home and helping out is so big. What else would you do? And this is really what the book is about. It really is about parenting toward the relationship as opposed to compliance and just obedience.

38:45And that, the section in the book about teaching kids to reconcile and disciplining them toward reconciliation rather than just taking things away and restriction, you can't do this. I mean, that doesn't teach kids anything. You know, in the book I talk about, we only had two rules, honor your mother and don't tell a lie. You can dishonor me, but you don't dishonor your mother. You know, just said those simple, simple things that lying breaks a relationship. And we want our relationships to be intact. And there's illustrations about how we disciplined our kids back toward reconciling relationships.

39:20Sandra's favorite is when I made my middle child, Garrett, take her on a date because he had been very disrespectful to her. And neither one of us can tell that story without getting emotional because of what happened. So instead of taking his truck away and taking this away and how dare he talk to her that way, I said, no, you're going to call your mom ask her out on a date, take her to dinner and pay for it. And he just looked at me like, I'd rather you take everything away. But you know what? At the end of that dinner, it was solved. Anyway, so parenting toward a healthy relationship rather than just compliance and all the stuff we tend to go to as dads, especially because we want our kids to succeed.

40:04And if I could do anything over again, I would just not sweat the small stuff. I had a tendency to get all wound up about the dumbest things. We thought were foster parents, active foster parents for 10 years. And we had a sibling group of three girls at one point and the youngest was five. And she would not talk to me. She would whisper to her sisters, but she wouldn't talk to me, just what had happened, men and all the stuff. So our kids come over one day, our biological kids, and her name is McKaylee. She's in her twenties now, so I can say her name. mckaylee is roller skating around the living room and around the island in the kitchen on the hardwood floors and our kids are like you wouldn't even let us run in the house and you're letting her roller skate i'm like hey you know don't sweat the small stuff we get tired over time you know i wish i was more like that when they were young i would just get all anyway but it worked out so

41:04Ryan Hawk:Andy, I feel like you've been in your prime for like 40 years and that is an aspirational goal for me. And when I think of that, I think of like Kobe Bryant practicing dribbling with his left hand at four in the morning, or I think of a musician practicing their scales every single day, even though they're a master. I'm curious, what do you do to practice your scales or to dribble with your left hand every morning at 4am to stay in your prime for 40 plus years is pretty insane to think about, but it's evident just from this conversation and all the other stuff I've seen you do that you are. What do you do to not only stay sharp, but to continually get better?

41:41Ryan, thank you for saying that. That means a lot of hope. It's true. I don't know. I mean, I know what my routines are, but routines are kind of personality driven. So I don't think it's routines. I think ultimately if I pressed hard, it would come back down to values. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book is the exercise I went through from Stephen Covey's book about doing the funeral exercise and realizing, you know, in my early 30s, what I valued the most and sort of setting those values up as a perimeter around my behavior. And it has really been a force to keep me centered and to keep my identity from shifting from what I value most to what I'm known for.

42:24Because what What I'm known for is you're the pastor of and you author these books and I'm grateful for my influence. But I just didn't want my sense of identity to shift from what I valued most to what I did. And all three of us know this as men, it's so easy to get centered around what you're known for out in the world as opposed to who you are at home or with your friends. and having seen how that can go has been motivating to me. But I think it kind of comes back down to that. As I say all the time to any time I can say to anybody, I only have one unique role. That's father to my children.

43:05That's it. Sandra can get another husband and there's gonna be another pastor and there's gonna be other authors. The only unique thing in my life is nobody else can be the father to my children or Sandra's first husband, as I tell her. And so if that is central and if that sort of keeps the gyroscope going and things, again, it's attention to manage, attention to manage because there's busy seasons and all that stuff. I would chalk it up to that.

43:31Ryan Hawk:Did you get really clear on your values and then the behaviors that make those true? Is that what you mean? Yeah, right. Yeah. So once, you know, and again, the eulogy exercise, when you have people standing up talking about when you write down what you would like for them to say, it's all about character. It's all about relationships. It's all about generosity. It's all about he was there for me. It's all about, it's all the stuff we know. Stephen Covey at the end of that part says, if you have just worked through this exercise, you have just discovered your personal definition of success. When I read that, I'm like, oh, because I spent several mornings working through it.

44:10I'm like, this is what success is for me. So when I venture outside the perimeter of these values, I'm not just, quote, sinning, to use a Christian word, or I'm not just messing up, to use a cultural word. I'm failing. I'm failing because I have defined success as these values. That was a defining exercise for me. And again, I've just come back to that year after year after year or so. What are the values? I'm not going to tell you. I never tell people. Really? Because, yes, because people need to work through that exercise and ask the question, what would I want my husband to say about me? My wife, my future husband, my future wife.

44:55I didn't even have kids when I did the exercise the first time. What would I want a son to say? A coach, a best friend. And I wrote it out, you know, sentences. And then I found kind of the core to those things and reduced it to seven words. First, it was 12 words, then nine words, then seven words. And I looked at those seven words and I thought, if I am this, that's success. So I don't ever share them. I used to. And I realized people were writing them down. I'm like, no, those are mine. You got to go get your own. It is very personal. It is very personal. It is personal. But you know what? They're so common.

45:30I mean, I think everybody kind of centers in on the same kinds of things. The other thing in the book that is so, I thought was so helpful, was when thinking about this whole issue of identity, I took my friend Jeff Foxworthy out and I said, I want to talk to you about this because here's this guy who's had massive success as a comedian. He's been everywhere. He has faced every kind of temptation over and over and over and over and over and over, you know, as he's traveled all over the world and done comedy. And yeah, he is very centered as a husband and father. It's extraordinary. So I said, okay, Jeff, how did you do it?

46:04And that conversation that we had in the restaurant that day, he's just a great guy. But again, he's somebody who figured this out. I'm not going to let who I am known for in the world be my identity. That is my public identity, but that's not who I am. My son, my oldest son, Andrew, is a stand-up comedian. And I said, if you were going to give Andrew one piece of advice, and Jeff has been very helpful with Andrew. But I said, if you're going to give Andrew one piece of advice so that when he's 68, he's where you are, not where so many people in show business end up. What would your piece of advice be?

46:38And he immediately said, I would tell him, your ego is not your friend. Your ego is not your friend. Or as a friend of mine said when I quoted that, your ego is not your amigo. And I said, that should be on a shirt. That is good. That is good. And that's true because my ego is you deserve it. You've earned it. you have a right to, you know, all the yuck. Anyway.

47:01Ryan Hawk:How have you managed that? Because you've gone from a person who was not famous to someone who was very famous and known and loved, and people put you up on a big pedestal way above them, even though I know you're a humble guy, but how have you managed your ego when all the people around you are, they look at you like a god in some cases and even treat you that way that I could see it messing with you and inflating that ego, making it your head so big, it's hard to walk through the doorway. Like, how have you managed that? It messes people up. I have several advantages. Number one, I grew up with a famous dad and I watched it from the sidelines.

47:44I learned this dynamic and I talk a lot about this in the book and that's this. There's always going to be a tendency for there to be the evolution, to use a word from a book I read, the evolution of a court, a group of people who get close to a person, they're on the inside, they clamor for attention, they sue for the leader's attention, the leader's love, you know, that is unavoidable, but it's not their fault. And it is up to the leader. It is up to the leader to decide whether or not they're going to be influenced by that. And if they're going to allow that to shift their identity, it is 100 % up to the leader.

48:19So as I watched my dad navigate all that, and at times struggle with all that because he came from nothing. I mean, suddenly he's so famous in every restaurant we go to and everywhere we go, the airport, I mean, everywhere, people, Dr. Stanley's stopping him. So having a ringside seat, I am so sensitive to the negative implications of that, even though everybody wants to be special, we all want to be treated special, but it's not healthy. And so the last chapter in the book is about resisting the evolution of a court and leaders have to functionally, you have to resist it. If you don't resist it, the stream is just going to carry you in a healthy place.

49:00Then the other advantage I have is when we started our organization, I started with four very good friends. In fact, one of them was a college roommate before I even met Sandra. So they were friends before we worked together. And then overnight I became their boss, but they have never been overly impressed with me because they, I mean, if you have a friend from college, there are stories you hope they never tell, right? And so because in three of those, actually there were five, three of the five are still in our organization. So when you have people that know you at that level, it is so healthy.

49:40And to the point I'm making, and I'll shut up, in the book, because this is what Jeff and I talked about, Jeff fired his manager and hired his best friend from the fifth grade as his manager for this very reason. Because he knew Jeff, the fifth grader and the middle schooler and the high schooler, and they've been friends ever since fifth grade. So consequently, you're bringing somebody in there where there's a relational connection that's not a professional connection. And they're just not overly impressed. He's not Jeff Foxworthy, the world famous comedian. He's the goofball that we went to.

50:18That level of relationship is so healthy. It is so healthy. And I've had the advantage of being able to work with some of my friends. They would be on my front doorstep if I started doing something stupid. Sandra wouldn't even have to call them. They would just show up and say, who do you think you are? What do you think you're doing? And what a gift. We all need that at some level.

50:37Ryan Hawk:You wrote that you and Sandra talk about this almost weekly. The line is the trap is avoidable, but the dynamic isn't. Meaning it's going to happen, but it's on us to avoid it, that trap. Yeah, the dynamic of leaders or famous people or people that people appreciate are going to draw people and put you on a pedestal. And when you're in ministry, it's worse in some ways because there's a God factor. You know, God used you in my life. God spoke through you. I mean, that's pretty heady stuff. You know, now you're, to your point, you're not just, you're not a movie star. You're well-known and there's a God factor, which makes the responsibility even bigger and the pressure even greater in some ways.

51:22But again, I grew up with a famous pastor father. And so I saw all that play out as well. So the dynamic is unavoidable. It's just going to happen. But we do talk about it and we just talk about resisting the evolution of a court. And I'm grateful for the people around me. The people I work with closest, and I've said this in front of them on multiple occasions, the people I work with the most would quit before they followed me into something stupid. but I know they would. They have too much integrity. And what a safeguard for me and for our family. I'm just forever grateful.

51:58Ryan Hawk:One of the commonalities of leaders who sustain excellence over a really, really long period of time, I think is that part, Andy, where you've done a great job of surrounding yourself with the right people. I know we got to run, but I have one more question before we go. I'm really curious. This comes from one of my friends named Jason Gaynard. It's called the champagne question, but you can substitute whatever you want for that. But this is you are surrounded by all the people you love, right? Your kids, Sandra, everybody that you love. And it's one year from today, exactly one year from today.

52:27Ryan Hawk:And you guys are celebrating like crazy. I'm curious, Andy, what are you celebrating? A year from today? A year from today. I don't know if I want to answer that question. I would love for you to. Well, I don't know if it's a year from today. Okay. I think this sounds strange, but you asked the question. It's great. It's a great question. I would hope that at some point we would celebrate when I'm no longer a part of this organization that I left well and it continues to grow and to thrive without my direct involvement. To me, other than just the success and the development of my children and celebrating all that, in terms of professionally, to look back a year after I'm gone, whenever, and to look at our network of churches globally and nationally, and it just be thriving without my direct involvement, I would just love, love, love that.

53:28I mean, to me, professionally, that is success, not just a successor, but that the organization continues to thrive. So that would be one thing. That is sort of the crown jewel of leadership, right? Like when your stewardship ends, you leave it better than it was before. I mean, that is amazing. And then the second piece of that, I know we're wrapping up, and this goes back to the parenting book. our goal in parenting was that our kids would want to be with us and with each other when they no longer had to be, that they would want to be with us and with each other when they no longer had to be, when they were independent.

54:05To me, that is the ultimate celebration. And again, you have to sow and sow and sow and sow, and then you find out if you get to reap that. And again, every family is different. There's no perfect families or perfect children, but experiencing that now, I wouldn't trade anything for that. It's just the best.

54:27Ryan Hawk:So good, man. The book's called What Great Leaders Do, Seven Essentials for Enduring Impact. We share a publisher, HarperCollins. They've been great for me. It's really cool to get connected with you, man. And I would love for us three, Sam and I definitely will, but for us three to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Yeah, that's great. And thank you both. Sam, that's nice to meet you. Thanks for joining conversation. It's great to meet you. And Andy, if you ever want to come, we would love to have you at Insight Global. I talked to my CEO. He was like, hey, we would love to have you come talk to our leaders, maybe sign a bunch of books.

54:58That's easy. You're down the street. We're in Dunwoody, so we'd love to have you. Yeah. Love it, bro. All right. Thank you both. Thank you, Ryan.

55:08Ryan Hawk:It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with my friend Sam Kaufman and Andy Stanley. A few takeaways from my notes. When you can't offer certainty, offer clarity. Think about where your people are anxious and waiting on answers that you don't have. You cannot promise certainty, but you can give them a clear, meaningful next task. Remember, action absorbs anxiety. Give them something to do. Next, run your next big decision through Andy's three questions.

55:51Ryan Hawk:Before you commit, ask, what's considered impossible in my industry right now? What would the next leader do in this seat? And what would a great leader do? Consider your answers and then make the call and get to work. Next, guard against the trap of success. Andy stays grounded by keeping a small circle of trusted friends who have permission to hold him accountable. Who are the truth tellers in your life? And if you don't have any, that's probably the first problem to fix. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Sam Kaufman and Andy Stanley.

56:37Ryan Hawk:I think they will help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you write a thoughtful review, rate it hopefully five stars by doing all of that. You are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.

57:06Thank you.