In short
Podcast Summary: The Long Term Investor - Episode 248: How to Pursue Excellence and Stay Human in the Age of AI with Brad Stulberg
Overview In this episode of *The Long Term Investor*, host Peter Lazaroff interviews Brad Stulberg, New York Times bestselling author, about his new book *The Way of Excellence*. The discussion focuses on a grounded, human-centered definition of excellence, moving away from traditional notions of perfectionism and achievement toward a more fulfilling and values-driven approach to work and life.
Key Themes
Redefining Excellence
- Excellence vs. Perfectionism:
- Stulberg emphasizes that excellence should not be equated with perfectionism, which often leads to burnout.
- He warns against the notion of "pseudo excellence," which is overly complicated routines that lack genuine engagement.
- Core Definition of Excellence:
- Excellence is described as "involved engagement in something worthwhile that aligns with your values."
- It involves pursuing goals that not only reflect one’s aspirations but also contribute to personal growth and authenticity.
The Pursuit of Meaning
- Mastery and Mattering:
- Stulberg highlights that true excellence leads to mastery and the feeling that one’s work matters, resulting in deeper satisfaction.
- Identifying Personal Values:
- The book provides exercises for readers to determine their values, which serve as guiding principles in aligning their pursuits with what truly matters to them.
Overcoming the Arrival Fallacy
- Understanding Fulfillment:
- Stulberg addresses the "arrival fallacy," the belief that achieving goals will lead to lasting satisfaction.
- He shares stories, such as that of Ray Allen, to illustrate that fulfillment comes from the process, not just the achievement itself.
Balancing Multiple Identities
- Identity House Metaphor:
- Stulberg introduces the concept of an "identity house," suggesting that individuals should cultivate multiple aspects of their identity (e.g., professional, familial, personal) to avoid burnout.
- Managing Competing Priorities:
- The tension between various roles (e.g., career, family, health) often leads to difficult trade-offs, necessitating self-awareness and honesty about one's commitments.
The Role of Routines
- Structuring Daily Habits:
- Establishing non-negotiable daily, weekly, and monthly habits is crucial for maintaining focus and pursuing excellence.
- Stulberg shares his own routine, which emphasizes physical activity, family time, and deep work.
Navigating Distractions
- Technology and Focus:
- Stulberg acknowledges the challenges of maintaining focus in an increasingly distracting world, particularly due to smartphones and social media.
- He advocates for intentional environments that promote focus, suggesting that phones should be removed during meaningful tasks.
AI and the Future of Excellence
- AI as a Tool:
- The discussion culminates in exploring the impact of AI on the pursuit of excellence. Stulberg believes that while AI can enhance performance, true fulfillment comes from human engagement and creativity.
- The Human Element:
- He warns against completely outsourcing critical aspects of work to AI, emphasizing the irreplaceable value of human experience, emotion, and connection in achieving greatness.
Conclusion The episode concludes with a call to embrace the journey toward excellence, focusing on the process and the relationships formed along the way. Stulberg encourages listeners to cultivate a life that aligns with their values and to view challenges as opportunities for growth.
Key Takeaways
- Excellence is a process, not a destination.
- Values alignment is essential for finding meaning in work.
- Balance among identities prevents burnout and fosters fulfillment.
- Routines and habits facilitate progress and focus.
- AI should complement, not replace, human creativity and connection.
For more insights and resources, visit [www.thelongterminvestor.com](http://www.thelongterminvestor.com) and consider reading *The Way of Excellence* for a deeper understanding of these concepts.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODefining Excellence
1:32 to 2:21
Exploring what excellence truly means and its common misconceptions.
“Today, I have with me a returning guest, Brad Stahlberg, New York Times bestselling author, his newest book, The Way of Excellence, a guide to true greatness and deep satisfaction in a chaotic world.”
Characteristics of True Excellence
2:21 to 4:28
Discussing the key elements that differentiate excellence from obsession and winning.
“I think oftentimes people hear the word excellence and they think that that means I need to be great at everything always.”
The Process of Pursuing Excellence
4:28 to 7:42
How pursuing excellence can lead to personal growth and fulfillment.
“It is involved engagement in something worthwhile that aligns with your values.”
Understanding What Matters
7:42 to 8:25
Methods to define personal values and align them with pursuits.
“sometimes people hear this and they're like, oh, this guy's just singing kumbaya.”
The Arrival Fallacy
8:25 to 12:15
Examining the misconception of arriving at goals and the importance of the journey.
“They're qualities and characteristics that you really want to aspire towards in your life.”
The Duality of Identity and Excellence
12:15 to 14:00
How multiple identities can create tension in the pursuit of excellence.
“What's going to fulfill you is like doing the work to get it.”
The Pursuit of Excellence: A Double-Edged Sword
14:00 to 15:00
Learn how the pursuit of excellence can create tension in various aspects of life.
“It seems like if you're going to work hard at something, it would just be totally draining without it.”
Understanding the Identity House Metaphor
15:00 to 18:00
Discover the concept of the identity house and its implications for managing life priorities.
“You are a mother or a father that wants to be involved in your kid's life.”
The Role of Community in Life's Pursuits
18:00 to 20:20
Explore how relationships and community play a crucial role in achieving meaningful goals.
“I'm not saying you have to spend the same amount of time and energy in each room.”
Love as the Core of Pursuit
20:20 to 22:20
Learn why love and relationships are fundamental to the pursuit of excellence.
“And something that really sticks out to me that you point out throughout the book, and you've already mentioned it today, is community.”
Show all 18 chapters
The Importance of Support and Competition
22:20 to 24:20
Understand the value of having a support network and healthy competition in personal growth.
“Like you pursue excellence, like you want to love your work, you want to love the people that you do it with.”
Focus and the Challenges of Modern Distractions
24:20 to 28:00
Learn strategies to improve focus in a world full of distractions and demands.
“You had mentioned like, hey, like sometimes we're not going to have great days and that led into our conversation about the identity house.”
Developing Routines for Excellence
28:00 to 29:00
Learn how establishing routines and habits can enhance focus and excellence.
“It really has to be a habit or a routine that you develop.”
Personal Framework for Daily Success
29:00 to 30:20
Discover a practical framework to structure daily, weekly, and monthly habits.
“Yeah, there's a couple of ways to do this.”
The Importance of Community and Nature
30:20 to 32:20
Understand the value of community engagement and spending time in nature for well-being.
“For me, generally, it's I'm working on a writing activity or I'm reading deeply.”
Navigating Technology and AI
32:20 to 33:50
Explore the relationship between technology, focus, and the pursuit of excellence.
“I never have more than two drinks at one sitting because I'm too old for that and it's not healthy.”
AI's Impact on Human Experience
33:50 to 38:10
Examine how AI might affect human creativity and the pursuit of excellence.
“friends and be with your kids directly, but also it's just a lot of work and takes a mental load.”
Maintaining Authenticity in a Tech-Driven World
38:10 to 41:50
Learn the importance of maintaining human connection and authenticity in the age of AI.
“if it alienates you from what you're doing, your primary craft, then I don't think it's useful.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02Brad Stulberg:We all need to make smart decisions with our money. The Long Term Investor podcast shows you how by distilling complex financial matters into easily digestible lessons. And now here's your host, chief investment officer at PlanCorp and the author of Making Money Simple, Peter Lazaroff.
0:21The Long Term Investor Host:Welcome back to The Long Term Investor. Today, I'm excited to have a returning guest, New York Times bestselling author Brad Stulberg, who has a new book out called The Way of Excellence, and he's going to talk a lot in this conversation about a more grounded, more human definition of excellence, one that's rooted not really in perfection or status, but in meaningful work, clear values, and deep satisfaction. This conversation is full of practical wisdom for anyone trying to do great work or stay focused in a distracted world and build a life that feels both ambitious and fulfilling. We're going to be discussing the newest book, so I hope that you find that conversation to be a valuable one.
1:03The Long Term Investor Host:And speaking of books, before we dive in, I want to remind you that there is a link at the top of this episode's description that gives you exclusive updates about my new book that's coming out in the fall. So when you sign up, you get exclusive access to early excerpts and chapters, as well as webinars with actually the next one coming up in just a few weeks. So there's a link at the top of the episode description, or you can visit theperfectportfoliobook.com. And now here is my conversation with New York Times bestselling author, Brad Stahlberg.
1:39The Long Term Investor Host:Welcome to the Long-Term Investor. Today, I have with me a returning guest, Brad Stahlberg, New York Times bestselling author, his newest book, The Way of Excellence, a guide to true greatness and deep satisfaction in a chaotic world. Brad's here to help us invest in ourselves, help us invest in something that really means something. So Brad, thank you so much for joining us today.
2:02Brad Stulberg:It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
2:04The Long Term Investor Host:So excellence, it can be a pretty high pressure word. I mean, when you use the word excellence, maybe let's start there. What exactly do you mean?
2:11Brad Stulberg:I think it's most helpful to start with what excellence is not in these common imposters that often get confused with excellence. The first thing is perfectionism. I think oftentimes people hear the word excellence and they think that that means I need to be great at everything always. And that's simply not true. If anything, trying to be perfect at everything is a surefire way to burn yourself out and to not be excellent at anything. Another common imposter is what I call pseudo excellence or internet excellence. And this is the thought of needing to have an extremely complex protocol, automated system for everything in your life.
2:52Brad Stulberg:So I wake up at four in the morning. I splash my face in cold water. I meditate for 30 minutes. I take a cold plunge. I give a hype speech. I put the hype speech on Instagram. I journal on and on and on. I've got this 47-step routine that involves 56 supplements, and I'm going to live forever and be world-class. And that's just not at all what I found in my research and reporting. When you look at people who are actually excellent at what they do, and I'll get into what that means later, they're not involved in that elaborate, performative kabuki. Sometimes people confuse obsession for excellence.
3:25Brad Stulberg:Obsession meaning you are so immersed in what you're doing, You are so attached to it that even when you want, you can't turn it off. People that attain the highest levels of excellence, they are at points of their lives and at points of their craft obsessed, but they also are able to turn it off and to smile at themselves, lest, again, they burn themselves out. There's some fascinating research that shows that obsession is associated with really strong performance over six months to a year and then terrible performance beyond a year. And excellence is something that we want to extend beyond a year.
3:59Brad Stulberg:And then the final thing that I'll say about excellence is it is not winning at all costs. So yes, outcomes matter. And yes, winning matters. Oftentimes, outcomes have very real financial repercussions. They open you up to new opportunities. But you can be very proficient at something and win. But that's not the same thing as excellence. Excellence involves your values and integrity in not only how you achieve, but also how the pursuit shapes your character and shapes you as a person. So that gets right into what excellence is. And I define excellence really plainly. It is involved engagement in something worthwhile that aligns with your values.
4:38Brad Stulberg:And the two parts of that definition are both super important. So involved engagement means that there is intention in deliberate focus. You care deeply about what you're doing. And then something worthwhile that aligns with your values. the goals that you strive towards, the mountains that you want to climb, they've got to be goals that actually shape you into the person that you want to be, where you can express your authentic self and where you can grow your authentic self. I think we intuitively know that the highest quality work, whether that is in art, in sport, in investing, in medicine, in surgery, in research, it's always an expression of the person doing it.
5:17Brad Stulberg:And that's the values alignment component of excellence. And what I found in my research and reporting, a decade of research and reporting for the book, is that when you pursue and you aspire towards this kind of excellence, the result is mastery and mattering. So a source of concrete, tangible progress, that is mastery, and then mattering, a feeling that what you are doing actually means something. And when you combine those two things, you get a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment.
5:43The Long Term Investor Host:The matters part throughout the book, and by the way, that definition and the book itself makes excellence very approachable, in my opinion, because, you know, if you had asked me to define excellence or point out examples of people who are exhibiting excellence, I'm typically going to limit it to a very small group. But I think kind of that designing a path that leads to a fulfilling life and focusing on things that matter really makes a lot of sense. But I found myself asking, and maybe you can reflect on this, you know, how do people actually figure out what matters to them.
6:18Brad Stulberg:Yeah, I want to answer your question, but you brought up a really good point, Peter, that I think is worth unpacking a little. So the pursuit of excellence, aspiring towards excellence, a big goal of the book was to democratize that. To your point, that is for everyone. And I firmly believe that we don't know how good we can be until we find out, until we give the things we care about our all. And regardless of if we win four Olympic gold medals or we just finish a marathon and it takes us six hours and no one cares, we can get all the intrinsic rewards that lead to a good life. However, that is very different than an excellent outcome.
6:56Brad Stulberg:An excellent outcome is defined by standards of a craft and of a community. So I can pursue the process of excellence as a powerlifter or a basketball player without ever being an excellent basketball player. But I still get all the same benefits. I had this great conversation with a world champion triathlete who said, you don't mean to tell me that the person who finishes an Ironman in 14 hours is an excellent triathlete. And I said, no, of course not. To be an excellent triathlete, you got to go sub eight hours or whatever the standard is right now. But you can also go sub eight hours and do it in a robotic way that doesn't really embody excellence at all.
7:31Brad Stulberg:You can be very proficient, but you're kind of numbed out to the process. Whereas that age grouper that goes 14 hours, they can actually embody excellence. Like they can grow in the process. So I just think that's important because sometimes people hear this and they're like, oh, this guy's just singing kumbaya. And he's saying that anyone can be, you know, the best in the world at anything. And like, no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there's a difference between excellence, the pursuit, the process that is such a source of meaning and fulfillment and truly leads all of us to our full potential and someone that is truly world-class or excellent, which often requires a certain set of genetics as well.
8:07Brad Stulberg:Now to your question about defining what matters and what your values are. The short answer is there's an exercise in the book that takes readers through an evidence-based way to figure out your values. The slightly longer answer for this conversation is your values are your North Stars. They're qualities and characteristics that you really want to aspire towards in your life. Things like creativity, intellect, wisdom, integrity, truth, respect, kindness, community. I could go on and on. And the research shows that people tend to flourish when they have between three and five clearly stated and defined values.
8:44Brad Stulberg:And once you have this value set, then you can consistently ask yourself, does my work align with my values? The goals that I'm choosing to undertake, do they align with my values? If I value health, but I am in a job where I only sleep three hours a night, I eat like shit, and I have no time to exercise, then that's probably not very values aligned. If I value, let's see, I guess the value would be in some cases like intensity. And I'm in that same job where I'm working 20 hours a week and I have no time to sleep, whatever. Like I wouldn't advise it, but at least it's more aligned with one's values.
9:25Brad Stulberg:So that's the rub is like you want to align what you're doing with your values. And the reason for this is we so often think that we're working on a goal. So we are working towards$10 million in net worth, or we want to manage a billion dollar portfolio, or we want to finish our first marathon, or we want to IPO or raise a seed round of funding for our company. And that's true, but that goal is also working on us. So trying to become the best investor, trying to grow your practice to a billion dollars in assets, trying to finish the marathon, you are learning things about yourself. You're facing setbacks.
10:04Brad Stulberg:You're having to be resilient. You're having to be uncomfortable. You're having to take risk. You're having to deal with other people. You're having to lead teams. And in excellence, heartfelt excellence is a bi-directional relationship between you and what you're working on. And so often we just think of it one way, right? I'm exerting pressure on the goal or the craft, but the craft is also shaping me.
10:24The Long Term Investor Host:You write about something, I think it's called the arrival fallacy. And what you're speaking to really hits me personally, because generally speaking, I have these thoughts where if I just get to this point or if I just have X, Y, Z, and I see this both with my colleagues at work, I see these with my colleagues across the industry. I see this with people in their own careers and their retirement. If we never feel like we can arrive, like we've really gotten to the destination, I mean, what's a better way to look at things?
10:55Brad Stulberg:There is no arriving. Humans did not evolve to arrive. The reason for this is actually quite simple and profound at the same time. So the primates, the early Neanderthals that we evolved from, the ones that were content, they died. They got selected out. The only apes that survived to pass their DNA on to us were the neurotic strivers. Why? Because living on the savanna was extremely tenuous. And if after you had a big hunt, you chilled and you're like, I've arrived. I'm the greatest of all time. I'm the goat primate hunter. Guess what? Two weeks later, when there was a famine, you died. So the apes that survived were the apes that got the big kill and then said, oh, my God, there could be a famine.
11:38Brad Stulberg:I better get the next big kill. I better get the next thing. So we are a striving species. Our entire story is seeking better opportunities. So this notion that we should achieve some goal and then be content, like it's just not how we're wired. And some people hear this and they think that's really despairing. And they think, oh, my God, I've been working all my life towards insert that goal, a bigger house, a prettier wife or a more handsome husband or a certain income or a world championship, whatever it is. And Brad's telling me that even if I get it, I'm not going to be fulfilled. And I actually read it as very empowering.
12:13Brad Stulberg:I say, yeah, you're not going to be fulfilled as you get it. What's going to fulfill you is like doing the work to get it. So you better learn how to enjoy the process. In the book, I tell the story of Ray Allen, who's one of the greatest NBA basketball shooters of all time. and about 10 years into his career, he'd done just about anything and everything that an elite athlete can accomplish. He'd been a multi-time all-star. He'd won three-point shooting titles. He even starred in a Spike Lee movie, He Got Game. The one thing Ray Allen hadn't done is he hadn't won a championship. And he finally won his first NBA championship with the Boston Celtics.
12:45Brad Stulberg:And Ray Allen says that the morning after winning that championship was one of the most disorienting mornings of his entire life because he woke up and he felt empty. And what he realized is that he told himself this story that if I just win a championship, then I'll be happy, then I'll be satisfied. And he didn't feel that way. And for a little while, he thought something was wrong with him. He was broken. And then what he realized, because he's a mature dude, is actually like the joy is not in winning the championship. The joy is in the season, in the playoffs, in the teammates, in the camaraderie, in the hard work to get there.
13:16Brad Stulberg:And he said that his second championship was so much better because he didn't expect it to fulfill him. He realized that the championship was great and it felt nice, but it was a byproduct of the process and the fulfillment came in the process. Put simply, like the work is the win. If we think that the win is when we arrive, we're going to be disappointed. If we think the work is the win, then we give ourselves a better chance at fulfillment and we actually enjoy the wins more when we get them.
13:42The Long Term Investor Host:You know, Brad, I had dinner with another firm owner, I think in the fall, and we're talking about our profession and he stops me all of a sudden. He goes, bro, you like really, you just love this, don't you? And I was like, yeah, I mean, how can you not, if you're going to work this hard, how can you not be passionate? It seems like if you're going to work hard at something, it would just be totally draining without it. And you talk a little bit about, you know, how, you know, you didn't use these words, but something tangential to like the journey is the destination really. And it feels like that's what we're talking about.
14:16The Long Term Investor Host:But sometimes I feel like there can be this pursuit of excellence that can backfire. Now you coach a lot of like high performers, very successful people. Where areas where you see people who otherwise got a lot good going for them have the pursuit of excellence backfire?
14:34Brad Stulberg:The main area where the pursuit of excellence in backfire is a strong word, but where it causes a lot of tension, I think, is when you have more than one part of your identity that is important to you. And those different parts of your identity compete for limited resources. So you are a firm owner and you want to build the best boutique financial advisory firm possible. You have big goals. You want to be the best firm in the country, the best firm in the world. You are a mother or a father that wants to be involved in your kid's life. You are a husband or wife that wants to have a good partnership and at the very least wants to try to avoid a midlife divorce.
15:13Brad Stulberg:You are somebody that wants to be around for a long time. So you want to mind your health. You're not trying to be a world champion athlete, but you want to maintain your health and you care about your civic engagement and you want to be an informed citizen. Well, there's going to be a lot of tension between those areas of your life. And it is extremely hard to be able to go all in on something without it impacting other areas of your life. That's just how it is. You simply cannot do it all. I think that that requires a whole lot of self-awareness and a whole lot of honesty with the people around you about the trade-offs that you're making, how long you're making them for, why you're making.
15:56Brad Stulberg:And again, do those trade-offs align with your values? I think that when people get a little bit too swept up in a primary pursuit, they start to make trade-offs without even realizing they're making trade-offs and it comes back to bite them in the ass.
16:10The Long Term Investor Host:Yeah. And I assume that it leads to burnout of some sort if it doesn't, you know, upset one of these other rooms in your identity house, as you describe it in the book. It seems like at a minimum you'd burn out, but you also talk about something that I find fascinating, would love for you to explain called raising the floor. We're basically like, look, we're human. We're going to have off days. We're going to have bad days, in order to achieve excellence, there are things that you can do in those periods of time that at least push you in the right direction towards those things that matter to you.
16:43Brad Stulberg:And then let's come back to Identity House. Actually, let's do Identity House first. You brought it up. And that's a really practical thing that I think will help listeners of this podcast. So real quick, I think that balance is not a great concept, at least not as it's popularly portrayed because balance says like, you got to be the perfect husband, the perfect wife, the perfect mother, the perfect father, the perfect friend, watch all the TV shows, be a great athlete, do the dishes, cook dinner, keep your house clean and on and on and on. And no one that is great at what they do, no one that even gets the satisfaction of excellence is a balanced person.
17:16Brad Stulberg:To be honest, I've never really met anyone interesting in my life who is balanced. However, that doesn't mean that you can just say to hell with it. I'm going to blow up my marriage. I'm going to let my health go to shit. I'm going to become a terrible person, but damn, I'm going to be a good investor. Like, I don't think that's a good life either. So the metaphor that I use in the book is to think about identity like a house. And if you have a house that only has one room in it, and that one room catches fire or floods, it's going to be extremely disorienting. You're going to have to move out of your house altogether.
17:44Brad Stulberg:But if you have an identity house that has more than one room in it, and one room catches fire or floods, you can go seek refuge in the other rooms. So when we think about our identities, we want to think about building a house with more than one room. What I love about this metaphor is I'm not saying the rooms need to be the same size. I'm not saying you have to spend the same amount of time and energy in each room. I'm not saying you need a mansion with 42 rooms. I'm just saying you want to have more than one room and you want to make sure that none of the important rooms ever get moldy. So in my identity house, the big rooms are family where I'm a husband and a father, craft where I'm a writer, and then I'll say like health slash athlete where I train.
18:25Brad Stulberg:And then there's some small rooms for community member, for friendships, so on and so forth. That's how I've shaped my current identity house. Let's say that normally in my life, I'm 40 % father, husband, 40 % craft and 20 % athlete or 10 % athlete. I'm in 10 % spread out amidst everything else. Well, during a book launch, I'm spending like 90 % of my time and energy in the craft room because I got a book coming out. I got to give it my all. But what I'm not doing is I'm not letting the family in the athlete room get moldy. So I might not be having five family dinners a week, but I'm sure as hell having at least two.
19:00Brad Stulberg:I might not be training for an hour a day, but I'm sure as hell training 30 minutes, four days a week. So during seasons of intensity in one area of your identity, you can give yourself permission to go all in so long as you meet like these minimum effective doses for other parts of your identity house. Or to continue the metaphor, so long as you don't let the other rooms get moldy. Because at a certain point, you're going to have to go back into those other rooms and those other rooms are going to be your source of robustness and resilience.
19:26The Long Term Investor Host:You know, it's so interesting to me about that. I experienced it in my own life. I'm putting the finishing touches on my own book where that was the room I spent the most time in. And I told myself going into 2025, I sort of named the rooms that I wasn't going to spend as much time in. Now, I won't air those out because you could challenge whether those were good choices or bad. But, you know, I think it's a useful concept to think of. And whether you're in career or even in retirement, I think, Brad, one of the things I see when people reach retirement is that work is such a big part of their identity that they don't always know how to fill that gap.
20:02The Long Term Investor Host:And a more newer nuance that I've learned, I used to say, hey, it usually takes people a few years to figure out who they want to be and what's important to them in retirement. But there's some point midway through retirement, I'll just arbitrarily say, where health and memory and mind slipped too. And so you have to almost redefine again. And something that really sticks out to me that you point out throughout the book, and you've already mentioned it today, is community. Like the importance of community in the pursuit of things that mean something to you. Talk to me a little bit more about that.
20:35Brad Stulberg:there's research that shows that when we are at the very end of our life and we're asked to reflect on our experiences that are the most salient almost never do people reflect on achievement they don't reflect on winning the gold medal or hitting a certain net worth or the day they ring the ipo bell or their restaurant opened or their book hit the new york times bestseller list. What they reflect on are the relationships that they forged along the way, their colleagues, their teammates, their clients, the people that they went to step into the arena with. And I just think like that is it. If you're trying to reach the top and you're doing it alone, you're doing it wrong.
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21:21Brad Stulberg:It's really, really hard to climb big mountains. You know what makes it easier? To have good climbing partners. And I think that that also makes for fulfillment and satisfaction in life. The Detroit Lions, my hometown growing up football team, hadn't won a playoff game in over 30 years. And the team went through this massive overhaul. They got a new coach, Dan Campbell, the general manager drafted really well. They finally won their first playoff game. And ESPN gets into the locker room right after the playoff game. And the coach, the general manager and the starting quarterback gave little speeches and the whole thing, all three of them together.
21:58Brad Stulberg:It took only two minutes. And the word that they use most was love, seven times love. And these are like vicious killers, right? These are NFL football players, a few beers in after winning a playoff game. And all they're talking about is love, not love, not even how much they love the game, how much they love each other. And I think like that, that, that in many ways, that's the point. Like, that's the point of the pursuit. Like you pursue excellence, like you want to love your work, you want to love the people that you do it with. And it doesn't mean that every day is going to be great. It doesn't mean that every person in your orbit is going to be great.
22:30Brad Stulberg:We all have colleagues that we hate. It's just part of life. But the totality of the journey and the totality of the relationships that we forge, it should be filled with love. Otherwise, I'd argue that like we're doing it wrong.
22:40The Long Term Investor Host:And it seems like excellence is a pursuit that you really can't do on your own.
22:44Brad Stulberg:I would agree. I think that that's that that's another misnomer maybe is like the lone wolf. And you need support. You need to learn from other people. You need mentorship. You need people to pick you up when you fall. provide gravity when you soar. I think that I have yet to come across someone that has gotten into the slipstream of excellence who hasn't had a strong network of people around them, supporting them and helping them. And this is even true for our competition. So the word compete comes from two Latin roots, come, which means with or together, and then portray, which means to rise up.
23:20Brad Stulberg:So the way that the Greeks in the Latin word compete, like the way that it was contrived was to rise up together. That's what it means to compete. So even in these kind of individual pursuits, when we have rivals, like, yeah, we want to crush them, but they're also making us better. And there should be a deep respect for your competition. So it's not just the people in your corner. It's also the people that you're competing against. Like you want them to make you better. And I've coached, I've worked with a few financial advisors. I come from a family of financial advisors. And one thing I get from all these financial advisors is like most financial advisors can name their competition and they can say, well, these are the people I don't respect and they don't do it right.
24:01Brad Stulberg:They do it unethically. But this group or this firm or this particular advisor, they are my top competition and I respect them so much and I want to outdo them. But that's inspiration and it comes from respect. Like to me, that's love too. And that's all a part of excellence.
24:17The Long Term Investor Host:I had mentioned earlier that there are things that can kind of help us all achieve a greater level of excellence. You had mentioned like, hey, like sometimes we're not going to have great days and that led into our conversation about the identity house. One thing that really stands out to me as someone who creates a lot of content, and I'm sure, I mean, you wrote about this in your book, I'm sure it applies to you is you got to be able to focus on stuff. On the other hand, And the world is so noisy today. Focus on anything of value and matter seems harder than ever before. Is that do you think we I'm making excuses when I say it's harder to focus these days?
24:56The Long Term Investor Host:Or is that something that you see playing out in real time with the people that you coach?
24:59Brad Stulberg:It's absolutely playing out in real time. And the people I coach playing out in real time in my own brain, like it's harder for me to focus than it was 10 years ago. So I think that we are in an environment where modern technologies are essentially like methamphetamine for our attention span and our brain. Like they just drive us crazy. And the old way of thinking about focus was you would develop focus like a muscle and you would be able to stave off distractions because your focus muscle was stronger than distractions. And now I think that we are competing with these technologies that are truly designed to be addictive.
25:37Brad Stulberg:I don't think that our focus muscle is ever going to be stronger to win that battle. So I think that what that means and what I recommend in the book is we've got to think about designing our own environments and our own ecosystems to promote focus. So what that means is that when you've identified periods of time where you want to do meaningful work or have a meaningful conversation, your smartphone should not be in the room with you. Not turned off, face down, but not in the room. There's fascinating research that shows that even when your phone is face down and turned off, it detracts from your cognition by about 40%.
26:09Brad Stulberg:Because the amount of energy it's taking you not to flip that thing over and check it, or the amount of distraction that you're thinking about, like I wonder how many emails I got, or I wonder if I got a text message or a response to this important note that I sent, that takes away from what you're doing. I've done some work with high performance environments, particularly in sport. And there's a trend that teams are having no cell phones in the clubhouse rules or no cell phones in the locker rooms. I can tell you that it's everyone struggles with this. One of the number one things I hear from NBA coaches is that the biggest challenge is that at halftime of the game, sometimes the players will go on social media and they'll see what people are saying about them.
26:50Brad Stulberg:What a disaster. Like, of course, you're not going to play well when you're doing that. So it affects everyone. And the answer is to remove the device, to like, to have sacred time. I think that for, and I'm not particularly religious, but like for, I know people who are very spiritual and very religious and like you go to church or you go to synagogue and like, you don't bring your phone with you. A part of, a part of a Sabbath is like, you put your phone away so that you can really focus on reconnecting to yourself and those around you. I think that when we do our most meaningful work, we should approach it.
27:20Brad Stulberg:Like we're going to church or synagogue, like we shouldn't bring our phone. It kind of defeats the point of trying to sit down and do meaningful work. So right now, me and you are having this conversation. My phone is on another floor of my house. Why? Because I want to be fully present. I know if I had my phone here, this conversation would not be, one, I would not perform as well. Two, I would not enjoy it as much.
27:41The Long Term Investor Host:I doubt that there is somebody listening to this conversation who doesn't agree with that statement. and whether you are working or retired or any part and stage of your life, if you think, hey, the next important thing to me, I'm just going to leave my phone behind. You might be saying that to yourself right now, but in the moment, because it is so addictive, as you mentioned, it just becomes a difficult thing. It really has to be a habit or a routine that you develop. And you talk a little bit about routines and the role they play in excellence. I thought I'd share something because if you gave me a lot of validation hearing you say some of the things in the book where I have a planner, it fills up every quarter.
28:18The Long Term Investor Host:So it only has three months worth of dates in it. And at the very front of the planner, you plan out your ideal week. And so you kind of block off how would things go because you have certain degrees of willpower, you have certain levels of energy throughout the day. You know, it's sort of like, if I didn't have any distraction, what would it look like? And then I can plan around it for an environment. So that's sort of my personal routine and trying to inflict habits away. but I still suffer from the other things that you've probably seen a million times. What are some of the things that you tell others in terms of trying to develop those good routines and those habits to better improve their focus and ability to achieve excellence or pursue excellence at a minimum?
29:00Brad Stulberg:Yeah, there's a couple of ways to do this. The first is exactly what you said, and you said it really well, which is to go what I call top down. So to time block plan, to map out your ideal day. And then when stuff comes up, deal with it. And hopefully you end up shooting 60 to 70%. And if you have 60 to 70 % of your ideal week or ideal day, that's a really good day or a really good week.
29:23The Long Term Investor Host:Funny, I would have said when it's not much below 80, I get upset. So now my benchmark should be 60 or 70%. I'm not being realistic.
29:29Brad Stulberg:I think so. The other way to do it is what I refer to as bottom up. And this is personally what I do. And I essentially say, and I've developed this framework, it's really simple, that I I have three things I want to do every day, three things I want to do every week, three things I want to do every month, and then three things that I never want to do. And if I can do that, then the rest of life can be chaotic and crazy, but I'm going to be in a good spot. So to make it really concrete and practical, I'll use myself as an example. So my three daily non-negotiable habits are 45 minutes or more of physical activity, going to bed when I'm tired, so not fighting evening sleepingness, in at least one hour of deep focus, undistracted work on something that I think matters.
30:19Brad Stulberg:So that is phone in the other room. I'm not looking at email. For me, generally, it's I'm working on a writing activity or I'm reading deeply. One hour a day of that, 45 minutes or more of physical activity, not fighting evening sleepiness. If I do those three things every single day, I set myself up for success. Do I want to have an hour and a half to exercise? Of course. Do I want to have three hours of deep work? Absolutely. And on good days, I do. But as long as I get that one hour in of deep work and that 45 minutes of exercise in, I don't feel like crap at the end of the day. My three weekly habits are at least two long walks outside.
30:55Brad Stulberg:And I define a long walk as an hour or more. For me, it's just so important for my creativity, for my soul, just for my entire being to be outside. Another weekly habit that I have is five family dinners, which is a lot, but that's a big priority. My kids are young right now. They're not in crazy sports, although that's changing fast. So like we can actually do it. I know that that won't be forever. And then a digital Sabbath, which is 24 hours where I don't have my phone or my computer. Those are my three weekly activities. And then my three monthly activities are to do something that is really involved and engaged in the community.
31:35Brad Stulberg:And right now I'm volunteer coaching my eight year olds baseball team and basketball team. So this is very easy. This has actually become a twice a week thing. It's a little bit more than I wanted to be, to be honest, but that's, that's besides the point. So something that connects me to my community, um, it's something that really connects me to my friends. So like, at least like at least one time where like, I'm, I'm just like hanging out for an extended period of time with friends. Um, and then, uh, we live in a beautiful area of Western North Carolina. So I try to spend the majority of a day in nature.
32:04Brad Stulberg:And this is like a family hike, going camping, something like that. And I find that if I have those structures in my life, and if I shoot 60 to 70 % on those things, then I feel really equipped to perform well. And I think that there's not a right or wrong way to do this. Oh, and then my three never do's. I never have more than two drinks at one sitting because I'm too old for that and it's not healthy. I never watch cable news because I just think that there's nothing worse for your brain and nervous system than watching cable news. And I don't use tobacco products. So I think that, as I was saying, like, I think the time block planning kind of Cal Newport Peter style of like, I'm going to map out everything and do my best to stick with it.
32:50Brad Stulberg:That is every bit as valid as this three daily, three weekly, three monthly. I think that if you're listening, you're going to immediately know which kind of one you gravitate towards based on your temperament. the point is have some kind of system in place. Don't aim to be perfect. And then when things go awry, evaluate why they went awry and try to correct.
33:08The Long Term Investor Host:And you talk about in the book, how like smart goals, something that's specific, measurable, time bound, realistic,
33:15Brad Stulberg:wait, what's the A accountable, accountable or achievable attainable.
33:19The Long Term Investor Host:That's right. No, achievable. Um, you know, those can kind of lead to some undesirable behaviors, but I really love what you just laid out. And I started jotting some of those down myself and think, oh, you know, that that seems easier or more realistic, especially when you're in the season of life like you and I are with young kids. You mentioned coaching a not eighth grade, eight year old basketball. My eight year old just finished up basketball season. I told all the dads after every practice, you guys are saints. Like, I'm sure it's fun to be with their friends and be with your kids directly, but also it's just a lot of work and takes a mental load.
33:56The Long Term Investor Host:I'm going to make a big pivot here because we're talking, you know, I was originally talking about focus and we were talking about phones and technology and the topic that can't really escape conversation is AI. And I'm kind of curious, high level, how do you think AI changes the pursuit of excellence the way that you define it and see it? Hmm.
34:18Brad Stulberg:It's a great question. And something that I'm not an expert on AI, so I can only speak from my own personal experience. I think that AI is undoubtedly going to be a powerful tool. It already is a powerful tool. I think that if we outsource the core parts of our humanity and our aliveness to AI, we might have a better result in terms of the finished product, but we will not have better lives. So the very simplistic way to think about this is, imagine, Peter, there was a button that you could press, and it would compose a Grammy award-winning song. Or if we want to make it specific to your industry, you'd press this button, and it would immediately optimize everything that you have to do to be a good advisor.
35:13Brad Stulberg:And you wouldn't have to do shit, right? All you have to do is press the button once a week, and you're going to be a Barron's top 10 advisor in America. Or you could actually do the work to try to become a top 10 advisor in America, probably fall short because it's really freaking hard to be top 10. Like, which would you choose? Nobody, well, I shouldn't say nobody, but I don't think a good life is pressing the button. I think what makes winning a Grammy or what makes becoming a top 10 investor so satisfying is all the work that you had to do to attain it. So I think that if we outsource more and more of our life to algorithms and automated things, we're going to feel less alive.
35:55Brad Stulberg:I think that being a Luddite and saying I'm not going to use this tool is insane, especially as the tool gets better, because I think it's going to, again, be very powerful. But I just think we need to be aware of like what parts of our aliveness do we want to protect? because Claude can write really well, but what Claude can't do is it can't feel how I feel when I'm overcoming the resistance and friction and writing a good sentence myself. Now, if it's not to say that there's not a place for AI in a writing process, I think that it can be a really good line editor. I can catch typos and grammatical mistakes and this sort of thing.
36:31Brad Stulberg:But I think part of what makes writing so satisfying for me is struggling through a first draft. I would never want AI to write my first draft. I'm a writer. However, I'm happy for AI to do my taxes because I'm not an accountant. And an accountant might say, I actually don't want AI to do the heavy thought work of taxes, but I'm happy for it to write my emails because I'm not a writer. So I think it's about figuring out like kind of what are the core crafts in your life and then not outsourcing it. And then I think more broadly, the metaphor that I keep coming back to is really like the industrial revolution, except this is the industrial revolution for knowledge work.
37:09Brad Stulberg:So the industrial revolution, we got all these machines and we no longer had to do manual labor and it made life so much more efficient and so much easier. And as a result, we got like incredible levels of obesity and overweight because people weren't moving around. We could drive wherever we went. We had factories. We don't have to lift stuff, right? Now I would never want to go back to pre-industrial revolution. However, now we need to actually go to a gym if we're going to stay in shape. We need to carve out time to exercise because modern life has gotten rid of that. I can't help but wonder if AI is going to do that for thinking.
37:45Brad Stulberg:And if AI does that for thinking, like, are we going to have to, like, carve out time to use our brains? It's a very bizarre metaphor. But in many ways, AI is kind of like the industrial revolution for knowledge work. or at least the more aggressive views of AI are that. So I don't have any answers, but these are the questions. And back to your initial question about how it impacts excellence, if it alienates you from what you're doing, your primary craft, then I don't think it's useful. I think if it is an auxiliary tool that helps you get closer to your primary craft, then I think it's great.
38:20The Long Term Investor Host:You know what I love so much about the framework that you've set up around excellence is why I agree so much with what you say about the AI topic. And and, yeah, I think it is a little scary to wonder, like, how are people going to learn? Like, how are kids going to learn? Are they going to learn to think? How are people going to get on the job training? A lot of times I don't find myself that worried about that day to day, though, Brad, because I'm just doing something I love. And I'm not saying that this won't impact the world one way or another. But something I really appreciate about the framework for the pursuit of excellence is that if you are applying yourself to things that you're passionate about and that have meaning to you, it almost doesn't matter.
38:58The Long Term Investor Host:You know, it's it's something where like, hey, I can't control this. It might help me. I mean, I certainly I know just this week I'm right about to get everything typeset. And I'm like, you know, I better drop my chapters into chat. GVT one more time and have it look for typos. And it found one. It found two spaces here. It found, you know, missing a letter there. And why wouldn't I use a tool just like I use Google to look up stuff? But, you know, I think where I'm kind of curious to see and if you have an opinion, by all means, tell share with me, like I'm kind of curious to see if it raises the bar.
39:32The Long Term Investor Host:You know, humanity always wants more. And so will the bar for excellence be raised? Will it be lowered? Will it stay the same? Is it going to be different for different people?
39:42Brad Stulberg:I do have a strong opinion on this right now. I think, and again, I reserve the right to change my opinion because technology is changing so fast. I think AI is going to make just about everyone pretty good. I think that's also a trap because I don't think you're ever going to be great if you rely on AI. I think you'll be pretty good. And pretty good might be 80 percentile. Pretty good is good enough to make a living in a lot of knowledge work areas. But if you want to be great, by definition, you can't be dependent on AI because AI is a large language model. It is just taking the middle of the bell curve of what should come next.
40:17Brad Stulberg:And the middle of the bell curve is not very smart. I mean, a lot of people are stupid. I don't know. Feel free to edit that out. Feel free not. I'm a very humble person. A lot of people could do better. But truly, again, I'm going to speak honestly. I think a lot of people are stupid. I think that some people are brilliant and smart and lots doesn't mean all. and it can sound like a very arrogant thing to say, but I essentially think that AI is gonna take a lot of stupidity and make it pretty good. But I think to be great at your craft, by definition, you're gonna have to do things differently than the masses.
40:50Brad Stulberg:And if the masses are using AI, then there's an opportunity to be great. And that actually really excites me. And I think a part of being great is gonna be being ultra human. So for me as a writer, I'm never gonna write more logically than a system that is trained on binary zero one code. But you know what AI can never do? It can never freaking feel. It is a robot. It cannot feel. So what's my competitive edge as a writer? I can feel what a turn of phrase does. I can feel what a metaphor does. And I can talk to readers and see if they feel it. And if they do, I can write the shit out of that. That's my competitive edge.
41:24Brad Stulberg:As a financial advisor, good luck competing with the math behind AI. It's going to crush you. But AI can't hold space for a client when their spouse dies or when they're estranged from their kid. These are the things that AI can never do. And a financial advisor that just outsources their work to AI, they are not going to win in those instances. So I think the more authentically human you can be and the more authentically yourself you can be while using this as a tool when it makes sense, that's what will lead to greatness in any domain.
41:54The Long Term Investor Host:What a fun place to stop, Brad. Thank you so much for doing this with me. Again, if you're watching us on Cheddar or on YouTube, you can go to thelongterminvestor.com. I'm going to have links to all of Brad's stuff, some things that we referenced in the show notes as well. Brad, if people are looking to follow along with you day to day, you're on social media. You're a great follow. Maybe tell people where they can find you.
42:17Brad Stulberg:Thanks. The social media platform that I am most active on, or I guess the handful, are Instagram, LinkedIn, and Substack. And my handle on all those is just my name, at Brad Stahlberg. And if you enjoyed this conversation and want to go deeper, I obviously highly recommend you read the book, The Way of Excellence. It is available in hardcover, audiobook, ebook from wherever you read or listen to books.
42:41The Long Term Investor Host:Well, thank you again, Brad. And for all of us, all of you listening and watching, we will see you again soon.
42:49Brad Stulberg:Thanks for listening to the Long-Term Investor Podcast. To access free financial resources and submit questions to be answered on the show, visit thelongterminvestor.com. Peter Lazaroff is an employee of PlanCorp and BrightPlan. All opinions expressed by Peter and any podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of PlanCorp or BrightPlan. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of PlanCorp and BrightPlan may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.
From the publisher
Get updates for my new book: https://Theperfectportfoliobook.com
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Brad Stulberg returns to The Long Term Investor to share a more grounded, more human definition of excellence—one rooted not in perfection or status, but in meaningful work, clear values, and deep satisfaction. This conversation is full of practical wisdom for anyone trying to do great work, stay focused in a distracted world, and build a life that feels both ambitious and fulfilling.
Listen now and learn:
► Why excellence is not the same as perfectionism, obsession, or winning at all costs
► How to build routines that raise the floor when life feels chaotic
► Why focus is harder than ever in the smartphone era—and what to do about it
► How AI can support excellence without replacing the deeply human parts of your craft
Visit www.TheLongTermInvestor.com for show notes, free resources, and a place to submit questions.
Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com)
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