American Men and the Crisis of Connection with Jordan Ritter Conn

24:58And for them, while again, they do things that they're not proud of, they go through some real moments of pain and moments of self-destruction. But I think that there was something powerful about having the story told of kind of who all that they had to go through to get to the place where they're fully at peace with who they are. And kind of talking through that journey, I think felt very, very meaningful to both of them. Yeah. And you had such a great narrative. I mean, it really was a narrative nonfiction. and I mean, I could imagine the movie already, which is how descriptive it was and how good the writing and journalism was for me to go there.

25:32But I think there were these beautiful story arcs of all of these guys and each one had the salvation arc. Gideon, I mean, I won't spoil the book for people, but in some ways Gideon's penis was that salvation arc. If you look at how the, I don't know if you thought about this before. That's great. But think of, I mean, the way that you've concluded his story was, I mean, it was laughable. I mean, he was able to laugh at his, you know, at his 18 or 19 year old self, you know, years later. But everybody had the salvation or redemption arc. And then everybody also had a mentor. There was somebody that pulled them out.

26:07I mean, literally, it was just beautiful how you did that. I mean, and I would, I mean, maybe I'll ask you, but I would, I mean, my offer is that, and they were all men, except for, I would say, Gideon's new wife. I mean, she was one that literally, you know, said, dude, like, you know, we can't go on like this and gave him that ultimatum. But everybody else, I mean, I think Nate's the story of, I mean, again, it's just a beautiful scene you set up with Dante, you know, who is just a child playground friend who totally accepted him, you know, in the Rust Belt, as you said, in a time when this was not accepted and is ready to, you know, to create violence on behalf of Nate.

26:46So everybody had these little things. Tell me, I mean, obviously that was intentional to some set, but did you follow some kind of writing framework to parallel these stories that were so different, but bring them all together by this? Again, I mean, it was a beautiful, you know, ending. It was everybody had this nice salvation arc. Yeah, it's a really good question. And I haven't been asked that in exactly those terms before. So I want to think about it. You know, I think the interesting thing about writing about real people's lives who are still alive is you can kind of choose to end it anywhere.

27:25Like any moment could be the ending. But with all of these guys, you know, they're all you know, I'm still very much in touch with all of them. I've talked with each of them over the last few weeks, they're all kind of grasping their way toward kind of a version of themselves that is healthier, that is more like connected to people who care about them that is more connected to their community, that is more mindful of kind of their own well being and the well being of people around them. And so I wanted the endings to reflect that. And so, you know, not to really spoil much, but the book includes some really painful moments for all of them.

28:02There's some real, really difficult stuff in there, but it does end hopefully. And what you said about kind of the ways that people show up in their lives is really, and you know, I think that men, other men show up in all of their lives in moments. But it's kind of intermittent. You know, I think that like one of the things that people have pointed out to me about the book is that sometimes the women in their lives are kind of the more consistent presences there are more consistent in terms of being there for them when they're when they're needed, whether that's, you know, spouses or, you know, in Ryan's case, his sister and his mother and Nate's case, very much his mother.

28:39but men do show up at these really really critical moments you know Nate again being being trans in Youngstown Ohio not a place where you would imagine he would find much acceptance and yet he does uh you know this friend Dante who's kind of a a jock like cool kid um really takes him under his wing and and protects him um you know Nate's dad um who's very much a kind of stereotypically masculine man who, you know, is something of a bodybuilder. He fails Nate in a lot of ways. He's not there for him in a lot of ways, but he is there and accepting of him when Nate comes out. You know, and then, you know, Gideon has moments, you know, there are moments where Gideon could die.

29:21I mean, he's really, like, really self-destructive and considering, you know, he's dealing with suicidal ideation and he has a friend in the army who shows up for him in a really critical moment and, you know, maybe saves his life. You know, Joseph has friends who, you know, a friend who just hears a bit about his story of what he went through as a kid and just responds with kind of curiosity and empathy. And just that little bit of like saying his story, some piece of his story out loud and having it responded to in that way. I think it speaks to the fact that like, men, like we want to be there for each other.

29:56Like we want to be good friends to each other. We want to be good, you know, brothers, sons, fathers to each other. Sometimes we don't always know how to do that consistently. But I think that like when the moment calls for it, often we're really excited to kind of rise to the moment and really be there for another person. And I think you see that in the lives of all four of these guys. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to switch to be a little philosophical here. And in both Jordans, I think you need to either call me out on this or give me an amen. But, you know, you have a subtext here of redefining what the American male is.

30:33I mean, and maybe there is no definition. And that's sort of what I'm getting to, I think, is as I was workshopping the show, I was imagining from Marlboro Man to RuPaul, the bookends of modern masculinity. And I realized this is a totally artificial construct. It's only as deep as the Stetson hat or a feather boa. You can take it off and then you can be whatever you want. and that became a little bit more Shakespearean and thinking that we're all just playing roles as we walk through the stage of life and thinking, is there a definition of the American man? And should there be? Is this a chromosomal construct and then gender identity, what it means to be a man is more of a social construct of how we're perceived.

31:16So that's my philosophical question for the poll of Jordan's here. I'll be glad to take it first but but Jordan I'd love to hear your thoughts as well you know I I think of masculinity as just kind of the water that we're swimming in um from the time where we're young children like it is something that exists that is so is socially defined as culturally defined that is with us whether we like it or not and um I don't necessarily feel a huge impulse to try to kind of redefine it in any meaningful way, but rather to just kind of see it as something that kind of shapes the trajectory of our lives and create a sense of kind of possibility around what our lives can be.

32:04I think that like kind of the traditional scripts that we inherit around what masculinity is or who men are supposed to be are scripts that limit us. They're scripts that can be empowering in some ways and in some context, but can also kind of hold us back from having the kind of like really fulfilling, meaningful, connected relationships with other people that make up a really good, robust life. I think that when there are these scripts that tell us not to open up or not to invite others to open up or not to kind of risk the vulnerability of just like reaching out to people who we care about and saying we want to spend time with them.

32:46I think that that limits who we can be. I think that when we have scripts that tell us that we have to be, you know, emotionally reserved, that we have to be dominant in some way, whether that be physical or otherwise in certain rooms, in certain settings, that tell us that we have to kind of pursue, you know, providing through like kind of a financial or material lens as kind of like our ultimate ultimate purpose. I think that those things can can really limit us and can really hold us back from lives that feel a bit richer and fuller. And so I do think that like, you know, all of this stuff is just with us, no matter what, it'll continue to be with us.

33:29I have a son who's almost three, I'm sure that like a lot of these definitions aren't going to look vastly different by the time he is a man either. Like it is evolving and changing over time, but it's also, you know, a lot of this stuff has been with us for millennia. I mean, these expectations are just kind of part of the human experience and part of like the way our culture has been shaped for a long time. And so I think like just understanding that we live within a world that defines masculinity in this way, but trying to make space for more possibility of what our lives can look like within the world that we live in is how I tend to think of it.

34:08I have two things I want to ask you related to that. I mean, one, you mentioned these scripts that we follow that inherently will limit us. One, why do you think those scripts are so prevalent? And two, why do you think they're so, for lack of a better term, almost addictive to follow? It seems like those are, you know, the ones we gravitate to because in a way it feels easier. Do you think that the, you know, in quotes, alpha male culture is filling an emotional vacuum for young men just in a dangerous way? Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I think the scripts exist because they're scripts that historically have been used for us to have power.

34:45I think when you're told to be physically dominant, being dominant gives you power. When you're told to be a financial provider, being the person who kind of has access to getting material needs met gives you power. Even being emotionally kind of reserved and not opening up can be a way to kind of maintain power by not risking the vulnerability that comes with opening up because vulnerability can feel like weakness. And so I think we're like, we're not really incentivized to question any of this stuff. You know, I think women have a much richer history and tradition of kind of questioning the norms and expectations of their gender, in part because those norms and expectations historically were ones that kind of held them back from having power.

35:32And so when our norms and expectations contribute to us having power, like we don't want to question them. And yet, like, there's so much more to life than trying to access that kind of power. And many men find themselves like feeling like they are doing all of those things. You know, so much of our cultural messaging right now is just like if you just bridge the gap between like who you're who you think you're supposed to be and who you actually are. If you just get stronger, if you just make more money, if you just become more charming and charismatic when talking to women, then you will unlock kind of a life, a version of your life that's that is the life that you want.

36:11And I think that's that's pretty short sighted. And so I think that, again, we haven't been incentivized to question this stuff because historically it has given us something that a lot of people want, which is to feel powerful and in command. And so we don't necessarily want to look at the ways in which it is limiting us, in which these scripts kind of hold us back from lives that can feel a bit more fulfilling and meaningful. You mentioned you have a three-year-old son. I mean, how has writing this book impacted what you're passing down to him and how you're raising him? Yeah. It has made me acutely aware of the ways in which for all of the talk about kind of a moment of like crisis of masculinity that we're in right now.

36:57It's made me much more aware of the fact that like a lot of this stuff is pretty like almost eternal. Men feeling inadequate and not knowing what to do with those feelings, at best kind of withdrawing into themselves and cutting themselves off from other people, but often responding in ways that are outwardly aggressive and destructive is something that has happened for millennia and something that will probably continue for quite some time. And so, you know, the struggles that he will encounter as he grows into a man are similar to the struggles that I've encountered, similar to the struggles of my dad, my granddad, my great granddad, and so on, have all encountered.

37:35And yet at the same time, it does make me like, again, that sense of possibility of what it can look like to be a boy, to be a man. And, you know, I know the world will give him all sorts of messages around who he's supposed to be when it comes to how he's supposed to inhabit his gender. And so wanting our home to feel like a place where any impulse he has, even if it doesn't necessarily fit into like the ideas that I might have, that I might be holding on to around like what I think of as masculine or just allowing him to kind of explore any piece of himself with it, where he feels at home. allowing him to, you know, not to, to be safe from getting the messages of like, boys aren't supposed to do that, or you're not supposed to be like that.

38:22Not getting that message at home because, you know, I know he's going to get it so many other places.

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41:56So maybe it's because you're in Nashville and maybe because I relate almost everything to music. As I was prepping for this, I couldn't get that Kenny Chesney song, American Kids, out of my head, right? Growing up in Little Pink House, was making out on living room couches. But when that smoke on a Saturday night, a little messed up, but we're all all right. Is the American male all right? I mean, we're all a little messed up, but are we all all right? That's a great question. Are we all right? I mean, I can sing the rest of the song. Do you want it? Jesus, save me, Blue Jean Baby. Born in the USA.

42:29We've got 12 songs in that one. Make up the karaoke backing track to put underneath this. But yeah, I mean, we're all messed up, But is there, I mean, you had a redemption arc, as I said, but just tell me, where do we go from here? I think we're trying. We're trying. Okay, I like it. We're trying. I think that that's what you see in the lives of these four men. It's what you see in other men who are part of their stories is like, we want to be versions of ourselves that care about other people, that allow other people to care about us, that are invested in our communities, that are good. you know, fathers, sons, siblings, you know, husbands, partners, we want to be versions of ourselves that care about our own well being to care about other people's well being.

43:19And we do get a lot of messaging. We do inherit a lot of ideas that hold us back from being able to do that fully that push us to instead pursue like we talked about power over those things. And, And I think that ultimately, like what we want, what men so often find as they age is that the things that matter most are their connections to other people, their relationships with other people, the ways in which they have impacted and been impacted by people in their lives. And I do think that we all want that. And we are kind of swimming upstream against, you know, centuries and centuries of messaging that has told us that that's not as important as certain other goals.

44:04Um, and yet I do feel like as we kind of slowly make our way, um, we, we, we can be all right and often are all right. Yeah. How often do these stories of these guys ricochet off your mind or are there situations where you would say, you know, what would Nate do here or what would Gideon do? You know, is there any sort of, uh, you know, the Dow of, of, uh, of Joseph where you can sort of say, Oh, wow, man, you know, I, I really don't want to make this mistake. You know, cautionary tale. Yeah, the, it speaks to kind of just the way in which working on this has impacted just my own life. And I think that one thing that it very much has done is made me more direct with a lot of this stuff.

44:52I think that because a because I saw how as a journalist being really direct and inviting people to be open how they responded to it. But B, I saw just like how much like, so many of these things that we're talking about, you know, matter to a good life that you have to like, prioritize them. I think that men can often be very good at treating things like treating our careers like they matter or treating, you know, finding a romantic relationship like it matters, or then And once you're in that romantic relationship, nurturing it like it matters. Treating, you know, when it comes to, I think with physical health, often where the parts of physical health that can feel empowering, like working out, I think we can often be good at that.

45:41The parts of physical health that feel scary, like, you know, not knowing about something going on in your body and wanting to seek medical care, we're often not very good at. Amen. Yeah. All of that to say, like, I think that we have to treat this other stuff like it really matters. We have to treat our kind of mental and emotional well-being like it matters. We have to treat our relationships with friends and with family members, even kind of like the looser ties that make up a community like that, you know, your barista or the teacher of other classroom at your kid's school or like just the random people in your office or wherever you work.

46:17Like, you know, I feel like women are just so, so often so much better at just kind of like nurturing, like doing the little things that keep those relationships alive and make you feel part of a like a broader community, but like it matters to feel connected to other people around you. And I think that like, just telling yourself, I've been just telling myself, like I need to sometimes in ways that make me a little uncomfortable, just engage in the world in a way that like treats this stuff like it's important. And, and like, it is worth my time and effort, the same way I would treat things like, like my work, or like physical fitness, or like parenting or marriage or anything else.

46:57Yeah. Jordan, the other Jordan, J.R., what you got for J.R.C.? Any questions? I got a few more things to ask him, but I want to respect you had a bunch of questions for him too. No, I mean, I want to ask you more about how specifically this did change your relationships or friendships, I should say, with other men. Because I know, you know, reading it myself, it did make me, you know, reframe a lot of my approaches is a little too clinical, but it did make me rethink of how I approach those bonds. Yeah. You know, I think like, just on the one hand, just like, you know, occasionally just making the effort to be a bit more direct about like, what's going on in your life?

47:37Like what's really going on in your life? You know, I think like we often, you know, like, there's this like communication scholar, Deborah Tannen, who wrote this book many, many years ago, that I'm blinking on but but read like when i was in college it talked about how men tend to like want to talk about like kind of these like third external ideas like things like politics or sports or music or movies or or whatever else um rather than like kind of getting into what's going on in their lives and yet i think when when we do talk about those things like we find it really rewarding again if if they're met with genuine curiosity and interest so being a bit more direct about bringing those other things up because a lot of my friendships are built around you know watching a game or, you know, something I don't play golf anymore, because I was too bad at it.

48:25But for a while, like playing around a golf. And so that that but then also being more direct with like, you know, while I worked on this book, you know, I have a full time job as a writer at the ringer. My son was born during the time that I was working on this book, I had friends move away and had like kind of a lot of my friendships did start to kind of wilt a little bit. And so being more direct about kind of reviving those and about building new ones. Like when I meet someone and think there's this cliche of men, there's like a John Mulaney bit about like your dad doesn't have friends, your mom has friends and they have husbands who your dad sees sometimes.

49:07And like this cliche of women kind of being the social glue of our relationships, like trying to fight against that by like, if there's somebody who I like, you know, I think I could kind of hit it off with this guy, like just making the effort to hang out. So, yeah, I think just like realizing like other people want this stuff, too. And you can just take the risk of being the one who is going to push for it, being the one who's going to initiate it. I also think like something that came up for me in this book is how much men tend to rely on things that are kind of structured and repeatable. I think historically, a lot of our friendships have been around like these external institutions like religion or labor unions or even just workplaces.

49:51Yeah, bowling leagues. And so like finding ways to rebuild some of those because a lot of those things have kind of fallen off. Like I did a story for The Ringer about the role fantasy sports plays in a lot of men's friendships and how that becomes like this kind of structured, consistent thing that guys kind of connect to one another on. I started a book club not too long ago. I was like, you know, I like reading. I know I have some friends who like reading, like, let's just get together once a month. Like it's such a traditionally like feminine thing for reasons I do not understand, but like, why not just like, you know, have a few guys get together and talk about a book and it very talk about romance, hockey novels, for example, you know, we haven't gotten there yet, but we might not yet.

50:31Come on. It's 2026. Exactly. Who knows? Who knows? We're full of possibility over here. But, you know, like, it's just like, it means once a month, no matter what, I'm going to see those guys. And we're going to be talking about something meaningful. And so, yeah, all of those ways. Yeah. So we do a couple of segments always on our show with our guests. And one we already kind of covered, which is you're probably going to be okay. And in your case, instead of a patient scenario, it was the entire American male. So just 150, 180 million souls that we have just deemed going to be okay. But the other thing I really want to get from you, especially after, you know, going through what must have been, you know, just a lot that you had to deal with yourself in order to get this book published and the work and the pain and the, you know, as an author, I think we share publishers too.

51:17I saw who's your publisher is, man, there's a lot of alone time where you're just like, oh my God, is it worth it? So I feel that. But, you know, for you on a daily basis, what did you do to ground yourself? What do you do now to bring you joy every day to say, this is how Jordan is going to show up to be the best Jordan possible? Yeah, that's a great question. Exercise helps. Although something that I've been, my therapist recently told me, I'd gotten a bit away from cardio and just doing weight training. And my therapist told me I needed to do more exercise where like, I can't look at my phone while I'm doing it.

51:54where I'm just like fully in my body. And so I've been trying to get back into running. Yoga has been that for me in the past. And so that helps. Spending intentional time with my wife and my son certainly helps. And you know, I'm a writer, I'm a reader. So like when I find a really good book that I get carried away by, I mean, in some ways, my work brain is still on because I'm thinking about like, what can I take from this writer and use myself, but in other ways, just kind of getting swept away by that story is something that really kind of grounds me and, you know, reminds me of why I love what I do.

52:33And also, you know, reminds me of kind of puts me in touch with other pieces of myself. And so, yeah, I would say I would say all of those things. Yeah. And then certainly like over at the process of publishing a book comes with all sorts of stresses and anxieties. And sometimes it can be difficult to kind of see the forest for the trees when you're in that. And I found a lot of that as well as therapy to be really helpful in kind of getting me through this part of the process. Yeah. The book is American Men. Jordan Ritter Kahn is the author who brought this up and I'm excited to see where it goes.

53:07What are you working on now? And what can we plug for you, Jordan? Thanks so much for your time this morning. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was such a great conversation. And I'm still figuring out exactly what is next. you know I have a few ideas book ideas kicking around in my head we will see where they go but for now you know I'm just trying to do everything I can to get this book American Man out into the world it's a book that I really believe in I really believe that if people go into it eager to connect with these stories that they'll find something really meaningful in them and it's been fun to see it making its way out into the world and I'm excited for readers to continue discovering it.

53:47Yeah. Oh, you just don't understand Debra Tannen, by the way, that was the book you're looking for earlier. But, and I was the reason I just triggered it again, it was I was thinking, this is definitely, you know, we always say this podcast, the tagline, it's, it's a show for men and the people that love those men. And I think your book is the same way is that this is so universal. Anybody can read it. And, and I think everybody should read it just because it's so powerful. And it's such a great thing to share. I'm excited to have both of my sons get a copy. and so you got at least two book sales out of this podcast and I'm sure thousands and thousands of more but I'm super pumped you spent this time with us and I think we're done.

54:25You delivered on the mailroom, Jordan Ritter-Kahn, American Men is the book. Thanks everybody and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much.

54:40Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it in the mailroom. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it in the mailroom. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it in the mailroom. The Mailroom with Dr. Jesse Mills was a production of iHeartRadio. It was executive produced by Jordan Runtog. It was edited, mixed, and mastered by Bahid Frazier, and the theme was provided by Long Transit. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave a review. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This program is intended for educational and informational purposes only.

55:33It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your health care provider for any medical or other related questions or concerns. The views and discussions aired on this podcast are those of Dr. Mills and do not represent the official positions of UCLA or UCLA Health.

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