Playlists with Purpose: How to Use Music to Hack Your Mood and Change Your Life

26:17I want you to like bring back this person, the guy like gluing the guitar together. And as we talk about this and we see like, what are these limiting beliefs around why you're, I'm guessing, cause I don't know you that well, but you're a high achiever. So it's obvious. That's what they say. Why you're not allowed to have fun. Like what are your, and let me just ask you this. What are your beliefs about people who like play guitar, particularly people who get gifted a we call this in kabbalah bread of shame people who get gifted gifted a really expensive guitar who can't even play that well and don't have the time like what do you think of a person like that i am so non-judgy i think you know good for them i think it's amazing uh so yeah i don't i don't have uh i don't have anything bad to say about i don't think it's great um okay what about what about a person like what about a person who prioritizes like and I don't mean from your doctor you know understanding the benefits of mental health perspective but like what do you think of someone who spends an hour a day playing I don't mean sports for health yeah no I think it's fantastic so why not you yeah right yeah no that's a good question so why not you what's like yeah no I yeah I mean you got me Julie I think it is a like I just got to do the next thing it's it's the arrival fallacy right of like if I just get this thing done.

27:35If I just do this next surgery, if I do this next administrative thing, then I will be that much better. I mean, I think that's the hard part about being a, being that super successful, very accomplished person is that, you know, you're just, you're only as good as your last accomplishment. So for me, right. I have to be able to, what's the arrival fallacy. Does that mean like once I do this, then I'll be happy. Or once I do this, then I'm allowed to do X. That's right. Yeah, I mean, it's a classic. It was a Harvard psychologist years ago that came up with the idea in academia where that, you know, where we're, if you're an assistant professor, if you, as long as you make to the next level, if you get tenure, then you're going to be good and your life will be fine.

28:14And we see it in medicine. You think if you can survive your intern year as a surgeon and you can get to the next level, be a surgical resident, then life's going to get better. And if you survive residency and you get out into the world, you start practicing, and then all of a sudden you realize that you haven't picked up your guitar in six months. So that's the thing is that allowing for that selfish, to a certain extent, joy of being able to sit down and do stuff and not check things off your to-do list. So I think I understand. So I think if you're waiting for, if you're waiting to sort of like, if this arrival fallacy, which I've never heard that expression, but I understand very much what that is.

28:53I relate to it with money particularly. And how this, how we, I'm going to make this much money, I'll be safe. Now I have this much. Now it's goes up to here, you know, that. Right. That's right. I don't think that this arrival fallacy, that if you're waiting to sort of like prove it wrong or you're waiting for it to go away, that you'll ever get there. What I would do with you is we would get into your playlist. You would curate it. We would go back and forth. Maybe you'd tell me about a time where, you know, the second part where you got the second guitar and I'd say, or the rage against the machine, whatever it is, we'd make another playlist of stuff.

29:27We would read, we would an hour a week, um, talk, speak only. I would speak only to that part of you that loves music and love guitar. I would only see that part of you and not the, all the achievements. And then what we would do is we'd make a promise, a promise and a consequence. So the promise would be because you're never going to, uh, you have to do the action before, you know, and then the desire follows like with sex, right. For after a certain amount of time. You're never going to be like, I'm ready to do it. And I happen to have an hour free right now. Let's go. Like that doesn't happen.

29:58The promise is going to be, we'll decide how much time you're going to spend the first week. So maybe it's 15 minutes, three times this week, and we're going to put this on your calendar. And that's a promise that you're going to make. So a promise is like, if you tell, you know, your wife that you're going to pick her up after like a surgical procedure, you're going to be there. If we tell our kids, you know, I told my daughter, I'm going to pick her up after robotics today. You bet I'm going to fucking be there. But we break promises to ourselves all the time. Promises to ourselves are negotiable.

30:25So when we make a promise, it's negotiable. And so the thing that makes it non-negotiable is the consequence. This is a brain rewiring technique. And I put a song to it. For example, I had a patient who had like an alcoholic ex-boyfriend who was bad news. And she really wanted like a boyfriend and she wanted this relationship, but she kept sort of going back to the sky. And I was like, when you were ready for the promise, like, let's go. We curated all the love music and we did Beyonce Cuffet and all the things. And then she said, I'm ready. And so the promise was I will never drunk dial him, text him, accidentally walk by his store.

31:00Cause I happened to be there, you know, and if I do, and she didn't, didn't like whatever people's politics are is fine, but she didn't like Donald Trump. And so the consequence was if she did it, she had to donate a hundred dollars to Donald Trump. Wow. Guess how many times she did it? Zero. Two. Okay, fair enough. But the consequence can't be like, I donate money to something I like. Wow. Like if I go on Instagram after 1130, I don't get creamer in my coffee the next morning. Oh. And so I've trained myself to stop doing that. That's good. And then I have my coach, you know, I have to tell her what I did.

31:36And so if you and I were working on this, we would get you, we would wake up the piece of you that wants to play the guitar. because like the desire, you know, that was, that comes from a desire. We'd speak to the desire and then we'd make a promise with a consequence. If I don't play guitar, I have to throw$20 in the toilet and send you a video. Wow. Damn. And eventually the pleasure of playing guitar and the promise integrated it into your life. And every time you hear the playlist and the songs that you're connected to it, like think about how much fun and adventure and joy and pleasure we could bring into your life in a month.

32:15That's right. That's it. But you'll never want to do it yourself. You'll never be motivated. No, you're right. That's right. I can even hear it in your voice now. You're like, that sounds fun. I'm never going to do that. You're hilarious. Dave, yeah, you kind of got me. I'm actually trying to think of the consequence that would make me do it. I got to think of something that I enjoy so much. It probably involved chocolate, I guess. No, it would involve time. It's time. Yeah. Okay. It would be, I have to spend 10 minutes doing something that's not achievement oriented. Okay. Like rearranging the stuff in my closet.

32:52Like some stupid waste. That does suck. Yeah. You don't want to waste time. And I would make you do that. Okay. That's good. All right. I can do that. So 10 minutes instead of rearranging my sock drawer. Yeah. Yeah. Getting, banging out some cords and getting ready for my campfire debut. I love it. and then we'd work towards like a goal you know that sounds fun we should do that actually i actually like this idea check in with the people every once once a month i love this idea i love it

33:49well you know so the other thing I wanted to tell me so your playlist thing you hit you know because I I wanted I wanted to think about what other what other things we need playlists for you know so a joy playlist or an anxiety playlist like how do you how do you build that for somebody if you think, you know, I'm thankfully, I don't get anxious public speaking, but if I'm anxious to do something, you know, what do I put on, you know, to chill me out? And how do you, how do you curate that? I always start with like musical time travel. So I always start with like, you know, think of a time when, so if it's public speaking, I mean, I don't know, you know, people get nervous public speaking.

34:30I think it's about, you know, thinking of a song that's grounding. So I always start with think of a time when you felt super grounded you know like i can think grounding is sort of like a like a bit of a loosey-goosey word maybe it's think of a time you felt super confident like for you if rage makes you feel very much in control and rage against the machine is a very powerful band i did a my podcast is music is therapy on right and i did a i did a show about how rage is a neuroscience goldmine how it helps you to like transmute anger and into power and agency and all these things. And so, you know, I think agency is grounding.

35:07I think feeling powerful is grounding. And so if you're starting with Rage Against the Machine, because that makes you feel grounded and you can learn some somatic exercises, which is a fancy way of saying, if you can learn some breathing and you can envision the success of what it is you're doing, that's sort of the key, like a deep relaxation, the song that makes you feel the state you want to feel when you do the thing. And then the vision of doing the thing. Like we all saw Michael Phelps. I know another answer is like, listen to relaxing music, but I have never found that like relaxing spa music helps me when I feel anxious.

35:43Like maybe somebody else that's working. No, I'm with you. It actually annoys me. I get annoyed because it's there. It's telling you how to feel. Like I don't want anything to tell me. It doesn't, it's not, you're not, if you're not connected to it, it's not helping you change your state. You're just like, I'm still in my head with my thoughts and this music is not attuning to me. So it's irritating me. That's right. Well, for us too, you know, when our, when we leave the house, we put on relaxing spa music for our dogs to just, you know, chill them out so they don't bark it. I think every time it goes on, they're like, oh, they're leaving again.

36:13And so then I always associate like the spa channels with, you know, with mom and dad are leaving the dogs behind. Well, that's actually, you know, that's the whole science behind what I do. Truthfully, it's really like, I'm like, have you heard of Pavlov's dog? Then you understand music connection therapy because the idea is like, you know, when you need to feel grounded, when you need to feel relaxed, cause mom and dad are leaving. It's like, when you put on the music, the dogs know, they know the wrong thing. It's not doing what you, what you, you know, you need to play them the music that you play them when you go out for a walk and then you need to, you know, you need to run out and leave the house.

36:44But you know how Michael Phelps, like we all watched Michael Phelps with the headphones on. Yeah. And you know, there's a lot of science around for athletes, the BPM of the song you're listening to can match the BPM of your heart rate when you're succeeding. That's a, I love this like factoid. And so Michael Phelps, I believe who's very into mental health. I would love to have him on my show. Actually, I should try to get him on my show. I believe he used music in this way. I believe he, all the athletes do, you know, the visualization, they all do it. And if you can link the song that's at the speed that your heart needs to beat when you're winning, you can essentially, arguably, the visualization, I mean, we all know that an emotion, a thought will change our bodies.

37:29Like when you think about something embarrassing, you blush, right? This is like, you know, we know this to be true. When you think of something stressful, your body tenses, like the things in your body change. That's why creative visualization can help settle the nervous system, you know, increase blood flow and all of these things. And so if you can visualize, have a vision of the success of whatever it is, I imagine myself playing the guitar, playing this Woody Guthrie song for my family on our vacation, June 1st. I imagine myself giving this speech and everybody claps and I feel happy and I have a big smile.

38:04You have the vision and then you have the action. I'm going to practice three times a week or I'm going to clean my closet or I'm going to rehearse my speech while I take a walk. That's the action. And then the song. That's the music connection therapy formula. The vision, the action, which is the promise and consequence, plus the song. and then the idea is when you listen to the song they become one and the song will do the lifting for you if visualizing doing well in the speech can settle you because you imagine it going well and you can change your chemistry through it and you can listen to the same song while you have that vision and while you take your action while you do your promise doesn't it stand and it's a question really for you and I haven't I haven't done the I've pulled from other people's research but I haven't researched this myself.

38:54This is, I'm working this out in real time in my life on the dance floor and it's fun. And it's fun, you know, therapy can be fun. Change can be fun. And if it's working, who cares, sort of. But I'm asking you as a physician, does it stand to hypothesize that if you connect the vision and the action and the song enough times that when you listen to the song, the face will blush? When you listen to the song, the nervous system will settle. No, I actually love this. I was trying to think of a way to come up with a playlist that naturally boosts testosterone levels, right, which is a lot of what I do research-wise.

39:29And testosterone is a, you know, it's a neurally controlled hormone. So, yeah, that's what we need to do, Julie. We need to come up with a low-T boosting playlist. I mean, I think there could be some really interesting neuroscience research in that. Because we know, yeah, I mean, you know, there was a study, I quoted this on one of my shows I did on testosterone earlier, that when you, there was a randomized clinical control trial years ago that got a new form of testosterone approved. And even in the placebo arm and the guys that were putting on inert hand sanitizer on their shoulders, their testosterone levels went up 38%.

40:04So it's not really a placebo effect. I mean, it is, but again, there is some neurochemistry to placebo effect. So we have to come up with a natural sort of how do you curate a guy to get into that mood that allow you to boost your T. This is a very exciting conversation to me, right? So I think there's ways to do that. I'm like, let's offline talk about this forever. The way I got into this work, I'll share with you, the way I got into this work was that I had an experience with chronic pain for about a decade when I was an older teenager, right? And I spoke to John Sarno on the phone. You know who that is?

40:37I don't. Dr. Sarno wrote Healing Back Pain and Mind. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. He was sort of like the pioneer of all that that now Schubiner does and all these, you know, there's this great app called Curable that I think is fantastic. And I spoke to, I was like doctor shopping, trying to find a cure, like in my early 20s. And I found Sarno, who is kind of the last stop on the, you know, chronic pain bus. This is 20 years ago. And I made an appointment with him at NYU and he called me on the phone one day. I remember this. I was like in the band and I was like, hello. He was like, it's John Sarno.

41:09And I said, well, I had this MRI. I had this like hip injury. that came from nothing. I had this MRI, but you didn't see the MRI. And he says, I know, I promise you, that's what this is. I'm going to send you to this psychotherapist. So first of all, him saying I have the answer went like this to my body. What happens to your pain when you settle? So I went to see this therapist, this psychotherapist named Fran Anderson, who still practices and is a brilliant person who is the reason why I do this work. and I learned about um nervous system dysregulation I learned about like maybe the childhood adversity exam you know all all of these things if I might I had a bit of a chaotic childhood and how you know I was living in fight or flight and very quickly I was able to get out of pain and then I never I went on toward the world and never thought about it again wow some years later my husband made a comment about money that scared me and the pain came back like that.

42:04And I couldn't, I had surgery and everything and nobody could figure out what was wrong with me. And I went back to Dr. Anderson and I did this work with her, but they knew so much more now about the neuroscience of chronic pain, because we know like the femur, you know, heals in what, like six weeks. Pain is its own disease. And I learned about the neural pathways in the brain and how to interrupt them. And I was interrupting them all the time, thousands of times a day. Every time I would think about pain, I would, I had something I would smell. I had a crystal I would touch. I had an image of a, my body on like a barbecue.

42:36And I learned, um, TM transcendental meditation with a nuclear bomb to your nervous system. And I knew I needed something really something somatic. Cause I was like, I can't meditate. I can't meditate. And I was like, I have to do this. And I said, I'm going to do this. And I did all of this work for two years. And I started to go to graduate school and I started to change my life looking for purpose and meaning. And I learned TM and I said, I'm going to do this twice a day for three months. It's 40 minutes a day. I had no time, obviously like you, like all of us that had no time and yet, and yet.

43:07And so twice a day I did TM for three months and I said, I'm not going to judge this and I'm not going to miss a session because I was desperate, but I was like, I know, I just know. And at the end of three months, not only was I completely pain-free, which when I tell you this, it's almost like a miracle that to even say it and have it be true. I was totally pain-free. I stopped watching like the real housewives. Okay. I DJed last night, the premiere of the real housewives of Rhode Island, which is fun. Like I had nothing against the Bravo and the real house. I was doing so many behaviors to downshift because I was living in such an intense, like dopamine addicted, fight or flight, and I stopped doing things that I didn't realize I was doing to try to settle myself.

43:51You understand? and I thought I would become a therapist and pay it forward and work with people with chronic pain. I was like, I have to help the people. I have to help the people. But I didn't really want to do that because whenever I talk to someone who has pain, I start to pick up their pain and then I have to talk myself down and do all my tools. And if I have a flare up, I can do all the things. So I know with absolute certainty, and I didn't invent this idea, but I know for sure that you interrupting neural pathways, which is just another way of saying meditation and coming to presence, changes the experience you have in your body.

44:22Correct? And then you change the experience you have in your body. Everything around you changes from watching the Real Housewives to showing up in the world in a pleasant way where people love you to making money, being fit, finding the love of your life and all the things. And it all starts with what is the internal dialogue and what are the mechanisms I'm using to interrupt the old pathways and replace them with something better. And so when I'm still DJing and doing all this work and I was on the live radio for 15 hours a week talking about music during this time. And then the pandemic happened and I decided to finish graduate school.

44:54I was like, I have to put these together because songs give us the feelings without us having to do all the work. Like the 2000 times a day, I thought a new thought. You don't have to do that. If you can just put on the record that makes you feel powerful. If you can put on Rage Against the Machine and you can feel the power, it will change the chemistry of your body and you don't have to do it in such a difficult way. I can't remember what the question I'm answering is, or if you've even asked me one. This is just jazz. We're just riffing right now. I love this. Yeah. So I always do this segment too, where it's called, you're probably going to be okay.

45:31And you almost, you almost answered it yourself there, which is, you know, for people that have chronic pain, which is a physical issue that has this hardwired, I mean, I can remember a toothache I had 25 years ago I mean I literally can point to exactly where it is today and every once in a while and I get really stressed even though this thing got fixed it goes right back because pain is so central to our avoidance you know as as a genome but you know if you have if somebody out there is suffering with chronic pain that has been to multiple doctors they're going to be okay right we just have to figure out the right person the right pathways to reset to to get to the point where they, I mean, that was an amazing story you shared.

46:15Yes. Truly powerful. That's like the, that's, I agree with what you're saying. And there are people listening to this who have chronic pain for sure. Yeah, for sure. Statistically there are. And I think that like, if I was going to give one piece of advice to anyone, first of all, I would say Google Sarno, there's an app like Curable, like learn about mind body tools, but learn about pain as a disease, learn about pain, like Google pain as a disease and see what comes up and stop doctor shopping and stop Eastern doctor shopping too. But the real thing that people can hear is like, here's the headline.

46:48When you say it's gonna be okay, you're gonna be okay. That changed my life. That Sarno told me that. He settled me. He attuned to me, my panic. And he said, I got this. And so my advice is walk away from anything that makes you feel tight, tense, scared, stressed. It doesn't matter what the degree says on the wall. walk away from it and walk towards anything on this planet earth that makes you feel like this

47:21nice pleasure joy a person reassurance this podcast you have the most amazing boy i don't have a voice for radio i did a lot of radio and i can talk but i don't come on now you dr mills have a voice for radio it's all the mic i've been told i have a face for radio that i get a lot

47:40but you're saying to people it's going to be okay like record that and listen to that a thousand times a day listen to a song that says listen to fucking bob marley every little thing is going to be all right listen to it a thousand times until you tell your brain this just had that on yesterday not that but the redemption song but yes oh the power see again three chords in the truth emancipate yourself sorry oh my yes no me too i'm there with you i i don't have a singing voice but i uh but bob marley oh my god there's a song by an artist called khalid not dj khalid oh yes yeah okay um khalid k-a-h-l-i-d and it's the song is called um know your worth it's not like i don't think it was a hit it was like maybe like a b-list hit um and it has a line it's like makes me cry because I'm listening to this a lot right now.

48:31This is a song that's helping me in this moment. And the lyric on it is, it's about a man, I guess, who, like a big brother, I think is how I think of it. Like he's watching this girl be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't appreciate her. And he says to her, you don't know your worth, like all the things that you deserve, you know, you don't know your worth. And then he says, find someone who loves you at your worst. And for some reason that hit me in the right time. And I'm like, this is about my relationship to myself. And I hear him singing this, I listened to it and I hear him singing it to me.

49:04Like, you don't know your worth, find someone who loves you at your worst, meaning like, love yourself at your worst that you can, that you can love yourself. Like you would love your child, like unconditional love in the, for all the pieces that you are. And I listened to this and it changes how I feel. It changes how I feel about myself. It changes how I look at myself in the mirror it changes like how other people treat me this is the power of these tools and we have a billion songs by a billion artists and they're all available on the streaming services like like iHeart let's do an iHeart plug they're all available let's do it i mean that's why we're all here i'm here to teach people how to do this as i'm figuring it out i'm teaching people how to do all right so tell me this you you had a crazy night you know up and then i had to get up take your daughter to school and then you had to pick her up from robotics later today so you i've already planned out your day, but what is it every day?

49:54That's like a minute of my day. I know, right. So what do you do? I mean, this is the other part of the thing I ask all of my incredibly successful people in the health fields is what do you do every day that makes you you? I mean, is there one song you have to listen to or what is your Julie moment? Talk to me. I listen to Led Zeppelin like every single time oh my god that's amazing ah wow i love it and i love led zeppelin so much as you do it sounds like but like what's so crazy about led jimmy page is very inspirational to me but hell yeah what's so crazy about led zeppelin is like there's 10 years and that's it i know pick a song here's it's like a card it's like pick a card pick any card it's like with led zeppelin it's like pick a song pick any song from these 10 years that's right right and and it's finite um yeah which is sad but also you know kind of good in a way but i listen to led zeppelin every day every single day that's amazing i think i do too really what do you listen what's like your favorite everything right now oh my god well i mean so i liked more of the obscure ones right so i was just thinking i have to listen to the drum solo from ob dick for example one of the greatest i mean one of that and in a gata devita right nine minute drum solo from uh from what jordan's gonna have to help me in this 1967 iron butterfly something like that 68 i think yeah 68 okay yeah fillmore west yeah so um so yeah zeppelin in fact there's a funny thing i mean when i when i first got to ucla as a as a professor in surgery uh you know it have these medicals this is like 11 12 years ago and i i always listen to music in the operating room and I listen a lot of Zeppelin, a lot of Metallica, a lot of rage.

51:37But, you know, this is how I focus myself. But I would always ask the medical students, you know, this is your test for your entire clerkship is you just have to tell me what the greatest rock and roll band of all time was. And, of course, at the beginning, you know, they were saying like Maroon 5 or something because, you know, this was in the 2000s, right? And so I said, no, it's Led Zeppelin. And then after about, you know, this is Pavlovian response or maybe it's just conditioned responses, but it took about three rotations of people before all of them had the right answer. They're like, whenever you go into Mills with Zoar, just say Led Zeppelin, suffer through it.

52:08And and and that's it. But yeah, no, I mean, I think we you know, Jordan and I were talking about Zeppelin the other day because, I mean, each person in that band is so different. And they bring such different talent levels, you know, from very different. I mean, again, like Robert Plant wasn't really classically trained and yet he had this voice that came from some other land, you know, and John Bonham. I mean, he just, you know, the way he held his sticks, the size of the drums and just the pounding. It was like Dave Grohl learning to play on pillows, you know. So he just played so hard because he couldn't get a sound out of the pillows.

52:40Well, Bonham, you know, that's kind of what he did. And then Page was a little bit more classically trained, you know, upper class guy. And then, of course, John Paul Jones was really classical trained, right? I mean, he was supposed to be, you know, a classical musician. And so you put those guys together. Yeah, the magic is that synesthesia where each one of them was OK. You know, Plant had a solo career, I guess, of sorts. Paige had some hits here and there with different people, but never, like, the four of them together, that synesthesia was, like, just, I mean, epic. I so agree. Did you see that great movie, that great doc?

53:12I did. I watched it, like, a thousand times. I know. It made me cry. I can't stop watching it. Yeah, and the way they, whenever they talked about Bonham, like, you'd see in their eyes, like, often, like, they were remembering as they were talking about, as if you were in the room, right? And then, ah, that just was mind-blowingly good. Yeah. I love that band so much. My daughter is going to be 12 this month, next month. Right. And so she has the gift and the curse of having to hear about these artists. Like, you know, anything she'll just do then. She'll be like, oh, blah, blah, blah. And I'll be like, well, are you familiar with the Nas album Illmatic?

53:49We're going to go to, and she's like, oh God. You know, like I'm always giving a lecture. Yeah. And that's just part of my parenting style. But we talk a lot about, like, I'm very into the, on top of your sort of review of the guys and how they play. Now let me add this layer. Because we're just going to be huge Led Zeppelin nerds, me and you. Bring it. The metaphysical layer where did Jimmy Page make a deal with the devil? Some folks say he did. I believe he did. And what he negotiated was 10 years of total control. because you know he had total control of every single note they ever played i was like a 22 year old 10 years of total control of the three most gifted musicians on earth but with no ego where do you find a group that plays like this that looks like this robert plant yeah no ego that allows you like the beatles didn't have that was the whole problem in the beatles that was the literal problem in the Beatles was like they had to, and that's the problem in the Stones, you know?

54:56And that's the problem in like every fucking band except for Led Zeppelin. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I mean, I love the Crossroads story. It's a, you know, Robert Johnson and Sinners, of course, brought it up a little bit into, uh, into the modern, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the idea of making a deal with the devil, you know, to, to sell your soul, to be able to play the guitar to, uh, I mean, geez, Charlie Daniels Band ever went down to Georgia, right? Yes. I mean, he's looking for a soul to steal. He was in a bike because he was way behind. I mean, go on. I love this idea. I'm reading this book about the, my daughter has epilepsy.

55:32Oh, wow. But it's resolved. She's in like a level one remission. That's fantastic. She's benign or landic. It's like been a whole thing. So I'm reading this book called The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down about the Hmong culture and the hospital in California. Did you read this book? You know this book? I know the book. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I can. I would do a whole hour. when you come on my show, I'm going to ask you questions about that because I would love to, as I can't even imagine what you think of this situation because it's so your lane in some ways. Right. We have medical ethics classes, you know, all the time on, on dealing with cultures that have a very different perspective on medicine.

56:06So yeah, for sure. Yeah. Let's do it. I'm reading it right now. And there's so much in it about, um, the souls, the role of the soul. And now we're just rhyming the role of the soul in healing and particularly you know epilepsy has a there's a lore around epilepsy prince epilepsy vincent van gogh had epilepsy adam harvitz from beastie boys one of my favorite people has epilepsy and my daughter's epilepsy experience had some crazy metaphysical shit that happened when it like came on but my father-in-law is a neurologist oh wow you can't you can't have i mean i'm not giving medical advice but i was told you can't have unchecked seizures in an adolescent.

56:48Like that's a very bad, that's a recipe for very bad things. That's right. And so, you know, she was medicated and now she's coming off this medication and things are changing and whatever. But reading this book, I'm glad I didn't read it when she had the onset because it's really opening my mind in a way that would have made it harder to make some of these hard choices around having a child with that type of condition. Yeah. Wow. Neil Young too, by the way. No, what? Neil Young has epilepsy? Yeah, yeah. So there you go. I mean, it's like, and my daughter can like speak to the spirits and she can do some weird stuff that's like always, that this is great, you know?

57:25Yeah. I mean, again, it's that neuronal wiring that is only about 20 % understood. That's amazing. It's intense. This is too cool. I mean, I had a whole other line of stuff, you know, that I wanted to ask you too. So we're going to have to figure out how to do this again. And of course I'm going to come on your show. But yeah, I wanted to talk about, about like, well, we'll, we'll foreshadow for whenever we do this again, but about, you know, traumatic songs and like things that bring up trauma. Right. And, and, and so, yeah, we got that to deal with. I wanted to come up with a good playlist for death.

57:58Like, you know, what do I, what do I want people to listen to when I'm gone? So Jordan, let's right. Let's figure this out. Jordan, we gotta, we gotta get DJ has to print back on. I'm going to do her show. and this is a, the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Yes. Thank you for having me on. You're going to come on my show. I think it's this summer. I have, I can't remember what the month is, but you're going to come on. Sounds good. Have me on anytime. I'll come back anytime. It's a great show. So much fun. Thanks. Awesome. All right. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. Thanks. I heard for putting all this together and rock on Jordan.

58:39Let's talk about it in the mailroom Let's talk about it Let's talk about it in the mailroom Let's talk about it Let's talk about it in the mailroom The Mailroom with Dr. Jesse Mills was a production of iHeartRadio. It was executive produced by Jordan Runtog. It was edited, mixed, and mastered by Bahid Frazier, and the theme was provided by Long Transit. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave a review. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This program is intended for educational and informational purposes only.

59:29It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your health care provider for any medical or other related questions or concerns. The views and discussions aired on this podcast are those of Dr. Mills and do not represent the official positions of UCLA or UCLA Health.

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