When Medical Care Becomes Trauma: One Man’s Story of Shame, Healing, and Vulnerability

24:12So that is the other reason why we want to have both testicles down is to keep them nice and cool. And also, as you said, to establish symmetry because you thought, nah, something isn't quite right here. So that's the medical school. Jordan, any questions now that I've given you guys the testis 101? I mean, not about this, but just more in general. And you touched on this earlier. I mean, Brad's story, the thing that's so complicated about it is that it was a medically necessary examination, but it was, you know, emotionally devastating. How do you personally, as a physician, distinguish between necessary medical care and something that crosses an emotional line?

24:57Like, how do you, like you were talking about, you do deal with people who've been through trauma in your practice a lot. Like, what is that process like for you? Like, how do you approach that? Yeah. I mean, I think it is full acknowledgement that we are doing something sensitive. It's, it's actually interesting. I was part of the committee at UCLA years ago when we introduced chaperones and they said that, that they were, that they wanted to call this, you know, tips on performing intimate exams. And I said, okay, well, first of all, we got to scratch intimate because already you're kind of going down this creepy pathway that should not be there in the first place.

25:31And so language is important, you know? And so that's the other thing is that, you know, I'm not going to use words that are associated in any way that can be sexualized, but a sensitive exam where, Hey, I have to do something that may make you uncomfortable. I want to let you know it's super important part of this exam. And that's where the chaperone comes in. So there are ways to do it, but there are also ways to say uncle. I mean, Brad was saying uncle and, and I mean, I, you know, I can get a guy I've never pushed on an exam to the point where if a guy, you know, says, hey, look, that's not cool.

26:00I'm not, I mean, that's really uncomfortable. Then I'll stop. You know, we figure out other ways to get information. And again, as Brad said, this was in the 80s. So, you know, we didn't have high res MRI, we didn't have other ways to see what was going on with that testicle to see if it was something that we needed to address or if it was going to come down on its own. So, so really, it is just, you know, complete patient agency that that we have to do something super important. It's going to suck maybe for a little bit, but as long as you know that I know, that helps. But yeah, there's no easy way around it.

26:30And a lot of it is experience. It's something I do 50 times a day in clinics. So the more you do, the better you get at it in terms of the language associated with it. I would also jump in to add that part of the issue was this doctor kind of gave me as a young kid just enough information to be terrified without any of the sort of the countervailing stuff. So using a word like surgery without explaining what was involved and whether it was routine or likely to be successful, what the recovery would be, you know, all these things that I came to actually, you know, look into when I was writing the article, you know, even thinking of myself as an eight and a nine, 10, you know, and then eventually a 13 year old.

27:07And ultimately, you know, they succeeded in descending the testicle. All that kind of discussion has been enormously helpful instead of having a hanging, literally hanging, felt like it was hanging over me, just this prospect of surgery that I literally do not remember anyone even explaining to me what would be involved if we did have to have surgery. And as a young boy, the idea of surgery, you know, involving your private area, I mean, there's fewer things that you can think of that would be more terrifying. So it was just sort of like a complete fail on a lot of levels. Well, and also, you know, you had this idea when you said a complete fail too, because your dad was in the room.

27:43And so you're thinking, okay, well, am I less than because I can't make my testicle go back where it's supposed to be. So, so talk to me about that aspect of, because I want to get to the one point in the article, which I thought was brilliant, how you, how you took a very important life passage, you know, in your religion and associated it with, with your medical condition, but, but start with, you know, your, the feeling of your dad and the dynamic in there, was there a kind of a shame aspect of thinking, oh man, I'm disappointing my dad here because my testicle isn't where it's supposed to be or walk us through that.

28:19Cause we do a lot of father and son work on this podcast. Yeah. I mean, I would say my memory was just a lot of disappointment that I could tell he was, I can remember this image of his, you know, eyes almost going wide, like, you know, just, he was horrified. He was scared. I could see the fear in his eyes based on what there was no. And to be fair now, as a parent, all these years later, that makes me both more charitable and less charitable in the sense that I would like to think I would rally to put on my game face. I think that this doctor did not prepare him either to give him the opportunity to sort of take in the news and not show any level of fear.

28:57So in that room, I, you know, I liken myself to, I felt like I was at, you know, a zoo, like an animal on display at the zoo. But I'm a human being, you know, in front of my father with my pants down. And he clearly looks scared, concerned, worried. There's nothing coming from him saying, you're going to be okay in his demeanor, because I think, frankly, he was a little scared and uncomfortable and had not been prepared for this. So, and at the time, you know, I was, especially when this first started seven, eight or eight, I looked up to my dad, as many boys do as like sort of the end all be all, you know, he was everything.

29:31So for him in that moment to kind of not be able to project comfort or to push back against the doctor in some way and say, you know, why don't we call it? You know, we can talk about this outside, right? Like if the doctor didn't have the wherewithal to recognize that as a better way to do it. So, you know, it was unfortunate on a lot of levels for my dad too. But there was definitely this element. I think the display piece, and this is what I'm conscious of with my kids. I mean, I'm very early. Thankfully, my pediatricians are always, you know, very attuned to this. But, you know, anytime they get toward the private area, there's a whole different vibe around it.

30:13It's like there's a discussion with the kid first, even with my four year old son. It's like, you know, everybody there's a part of the exam where everybody has parts where we, you know, we don't let strangers see them. And we, you know, we don't we don't we don't let people touch them except in certain context. You know, one of them is, you know, with your parents here in an exam room. We just need to make sure you're healthy. And is it okay if I take a quick, quick peek down there? Like literally this is the discussion that happened and I'm sitting there going, oh, I would have loved this. Yeah.

30:43That did not happen. I was three years old. So on the religious piece, I will tell you, um, you know, there's, there's a couple of moments in my life. I don't consider myself much of a believer. Uh, I don't know what I am with respect to God, but it was a week before my bar mitzvah. This is what you're referring to in the piece where I knew that there was going to be surgery if they didn't succeed in pushing it down, the testicle down manually. And I remember more than I remember the prayers I was learning for my bar mitzvah and all that. I remember sitting up very late at night and just praying, praying, praying to God that this would be able to come down.

31:21And it was like a week. I'm pretty sure it was a week before I had a visit to the doctor and he pushed it down. and unlike the other time that he tried, it stayed down. And I just couldn't, even then, you know, bar mitzvah, passage into manhood, this rite of passage, and here I am with the testicle being pushed down, you know. It was like the heavens opening up, you know. Right. I still look back and I'm like, that was the most I ever prayed. Yeah. You know, what was that about? Wow. Well, there you go. So you made it all these years. You know, you haven't called in any more favors, so maybe you don't.

31:55That's right. I'm saving it up. Yeah, let's hope you don't have to. But, you know, you bring up one of the things that I really want to get from you is advice for my other listeners. Because anatomic shame, especially, you know, with our genitals, is a huge part of what I deal with in my office all the time. And you did allude to that a little bit in your piece as well. But what do you have advice for people that have suffered this anatomic shame of being afraid to be in the locker room or be afraid to be with new partners? because everybody has it in some way or another, whether it's there's something wrong with their penis or something wrong with their testicles or scrotum.

32:32There's not a guy that, not a day that goes by my clinic where I don't deal with that on probably every other patient basis. So what lessons have you learned other than obviously being open about it? I mean, this is huge that you're allowing this degree of vulnerability, but talk us through how you handle shame. What advice do you have for people with this? Well, I do think you're alluding to kind of one of the primary lessons that I will say I was really struck. I've written a bunch of things in a bunch of places, but I have never received as many heartfelt, detailed, moving emails from strangers literally across the country and even across the world saying how much the piece resonated, sharing similar or analogous situations, to go to your point, around body shame, particularly as men.

33:24You know, I've received a number of emails from people saying, you know, particularly as a guy, the idea that I would talk to somebody or share, you know, issues around my body is, you know, took me 30 years to realize that, you know, I could do that. And I will say the kind of thread in these emails, in addition to what I just found very moving that people were willing to reach out and share with me, was this idea that the turning point, you know, whether they wound up with a resolved, quote unquote, whatever that means, you know, medical situation or not. Most of them were pointing to this idea of finding a person or a moment in which they finally did open up, let go in some way of that secret.

34:07You know, we tend to think, I think this is larger than medical shame. You know, I think that we keep secrets because we think it would protect us, right? There must be a reason why people are prone at times to keeping a secret. I think it's the hope that it will protect us from something. The sad irony is that, at least for me, and I know for many people who wrote me, it does the opposite. It kind of magnifies the shame. It's kind of layers shame on top of trauma and kind of denies, you know, people, whoever they may be, whether they may be a partner, intimate or otherwise a friend, the opportunity to maybe actually help help with that.

34:45So in my piece, I wrote about, you know, finally confiding in a boyfriend. Like, you know, I used very kind of generic language like something happened down there. I had an injury down there and it was like, oh, like, tell me about that. And I can feel my heart racing literally right now, remembering what it felt like to have my heart race then and to be like, you know what, this thing, like the idea, I will just say to the idea that I'm sitting across from someone talking about this, the idea that I wrote about it, the idea that I ever shared anything about it. if you told me that 20 years ago, that that would happen, if you told me 30 years ago, I would tell you that is the craziest thing I've ever heard.

35:21Like there is no chance that I will ever tell anybody. There's no chance I will ever write about it. There's no chance I'll ever talk about it. And, you know, I guess through the process of sharing, there's some healing that goes on there and understanding, you know, and sort of going back to what I said earlier, sort of a sense of where this all fits in. And I've, you mentioned the humor, you know, my situation is a little easier because I do feel like, you know, from a medical perspective, it's kind of resolved. But talking about it has allowed me to find some humor in it. And I will tell you, this is going to be something you're not going to believe, or maybe it's not believable to me, but my, one of my dogs, what do you think happened with one of my dogs?

36:06Dr. Oh man, this is genetic. And so here I am, it's about a year after writing the essay, I've got a new puppy and they're going to neuter him. They're going to do the neutering, but they can't do it at the vet that I'm usually go to because they're not equipped to do it when you have a cryptocortic dog. So I literally found myself in a doctor's office, vet's office, having them explain to me this condition. I kid you not, I was driving my dog home in the car and being like, you're okay, copper, you're good. We love you. You'll be fine. Because it was a moment of like almost reliving someone that's talking about the condition, how he could never be quote a stud.

36:46He could never, he could never have, you know, be, you know, be the dog that they used to breed because of this condition. I was like, this is like crazy that this is happening. I'm hearing these now through the lens of a doc, a vet talking about my dog. And I thought, well, this is, this is kind of funny though. It's kind of testing where I am emotionally with this experience. It's a great backstory to get emotional service animals certification for your dog too. Just imagine telling the TSA guys, look, no, we share a diagnosis. It has to go on the plane with me, brother. You got to understand.

37:19And that, that may have been, that may be the best creation story ever for an ESA. Well, I was the right, I was the right, I'm the right forever home for this, for this dog. because I had oodles of understanding and compassion and he's doing great now. I mean, the heavens are listening again. I think that's a kismet in a sort of a way.

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40:55so i i guess you know there you haven't really alluded to it because you seem like an incredibly positive upbeat kind of person to go through all this but but sort of you know talk to us about the was there an anger component or when you were eight did you have words to describe what you were going through and, you know, and, and kind of how you work through that going from anger to acceptance and, uh, you know, well, you know, there was, I can tell you there was an early draft of this essay, uh, which was, I think you talked about cathartic, you know, what was cathartic. It was an early draft where, I mean, I went to town on Dr.

41:34R and through the lens of a boy, these were not imagined memories. I can remember wanting to just, he had a mole on his, on the right or left side, I can't remember. And I just wanted to scrape it off his face. I was so pissed at him and so angry at him because I literally felt like he was committing an act of violence emotionally and physically against me. So there's that. And I avoided him. I mean, I used to, when I used to hide, you know, sore throats from my parents, because I didn't want to go to the doctor, I would sometimes ask them to call the office and see which doctor was on staff that day because I knew for what, you know, he was more likely to also use the opportunity to perform an exam.

42:15And there was another doctor who would like kind of just stick to my throat and like we could be on with things. So there was a lot of both anger and avoidance then. You know, there's, I definitely think over the years there was, I was angry at the situation. I was angry. Also, I think I, you know, I wrote about the thing, this is why the word resolved is such a tricky one is sort of like, you know, they pushed my testicle down and it stayed there. But I lived in like, probably, you know, reflecting excessive fear about it happening again. So I go into swimming pools and Dr. Mills, you could tell me if this is real or not, but a very cold swimming pool, literally, I will not go into because it pushes, it has a tendency to push particularly my right testicle upward.

42:56And I literally, I cannot deal with the idea that it's going to go up again. So that fear of, you know, intimate intimacy with partners, you know, sort of just resenting the feeling of like, I had to go through that. And not only I feel like I'm still going through with it because I'm on guard. I used to, you know, I said, if there's ever a videotape of me as a kid, like playing sports, you would see that my left hand was often like pushing on my left side to make sure that my left testicle wasn't going up. Right. Like I was very vigilant about just this thing that had happened. And it kind of just was a big feature of adolescence, early relationships.

43:35So there's a fair amount of just over the years, kind of, I don't know about anger, but kind of resentment that I had to deal with it. And it didn't, it's not as if I felt like people were all stars about how to help me deal with it. I kind of dealt with it on my own is what it felt like. Yeah, well, for sure. Yeah, well, I mean, and just this article is, I can't tell you, And it's going to reach so many more people, but you're already getting great feedback for what an amazing service you've done for these guys, which I think, you know, that's terrific. And you brought up also this idea of avoidance.

44:06And I think that is actually a really big part of my practice is I see guys that have not wanted to come to the doctor for five years, 10 years, because they don't want to talk about whatever it is that's bringing them today. But then, you know, as a urologist, as a subspecialist surgeon, when they're there for something that they've avoided physicians writ large for, I'm finding all kinds of problems with them. High cholesterol, diabetes, sort of the killers of an American male because they hadn't wanted to come to a doctor at all because they didn't want to talk about their Peyronie's disease or penile issues or testicular issues or erectile dysfunction even.

44:40I mean, it's amazing how many guys still don't want to talk about that. And so they're avoiding physicians in general. And so I think by you putting this article out and then coming on the podcast is you're, whoo, you know, I don't know if people can hear that collective side, but I think that's the goal is to destigmatize whatever you're going through, because, you know, it can make you less healthy overall if you're not willing to go in. And I mean, that's a brilliant story you just said that you literally telling your parents, like, I want to make sure Dr. R is not on staff that day. You know, I mean, sure, my fever is 106, you know, and I can't swallow.

45:13So my throat's closing, but maybe tomorrow another guy will be there. I mean, holy crap, man, that's pretty powerful. Wow. I think one of the other things that I wanted to ask, and this is totally out in left field, but it's something that I'm surprised they still have to ask in this day and age. And in fact, at UCLA, even I've been here for over 11 years. And I remember when I got here, we have this designation in our profile. that says that we're LGBTQ champions and it's a little rainbow you for UCLA. And they asked if I wanted to be on that. I said, oh, of course. I mean, that's a big part of my practice.

45:54I'm a sexual medicine doctor and there's a lot of sexual issues that may even be more focused in the LGBTQ population. But I want to get your take on this because I had a nurse at the time who was gay and I said, this seems so silly. Like everybody should, as physicians, be able to deal with every population we deal with. I mean, I trained in a place where we had to take care of prisoners. Do you think I could go in and say, oh, I'm not gonna take care of your prostate because you're in jail? I mean, that's ridiculous. And he said, dude, and I think he did actually say, dude, he said, dude, you don't understand what our population goes through.

46:30So tell me, do you think that the LGBTQ population, does it suffer? And I can't say at a greater rate because you wouldn't know the other side of it, but do you feel like there's an established trauma system or trauma avoidance within that community for healthcare providers where there's a fear of opening up or being judged? I do. I mean, I've worked over the years at LGBTQ community centers in New York and Chicago and now at an LGBTQ nonprofit in the San Francisco area. The first two in the community center context, I can tell you that many of the people we served, you know, finding a doctor that they felt was affirming and fluent and sort of just got it was often, you know, a big piece of their medical journey.

47:17Now, obviously, within the LGBTQ community, folks, you know, can present with all sorts of different, you know, concerns and challenges. Obviously, the transgender community is going to face a very different constellation of challenges that myself as a cisgender gay man have not faced, right? But I can tell you, you can kind of, from the moment you walk in an office, things send signals about kind of what's going to happen there. I can remember the days, you know, pre-marriage equality. I remember I wound up in an emergency room with what turned out to be like a very violent case of food poisoning.

47:51And I was just all like writhing in pain. Like my friend said, you know, it sounds like I was a gunshot victim the way I was screaming in the place. Right. And the point being that, and I was not going to be cared for immediately because they figured that it was food poisoning. Anyway, the point is they, I remember they, I had a form I needed to fill, fill out. They said, you got to fill out this form. And I'm like, can barely breathe. Um, and you know, the boxes at the time were single, uh, married and widowed and divorced or something. And I, I left it blank cause nothing applied to me. Uh, I was in a domestic partnership at the time with my future husband and I went to the front and I was like, she's like, you didn't check the box.

48:26I'm like, you don't have a box for me. I'm not checking it. And she was like, oh, and so that seems like a very light thing, but that's right at the go. It's like, there's communication about, you know, whether we kind of recognize the kind of individuality and the specific circumstances of the patient. I mean, I remember talking to a physician who wound up being a great physician for me. Uh, but I said, don't you want me to announce somehow to you that I'm gay and, you know, right off the bat, because it might be relevant to go to your point, Dr. Mills, it might be relevant to the kind of care, you know, the kind of questions you might ask the kind of, you know, the kind of things that might be on your mind as you do an exam.

49:05Like, so make it easy for me. I don't need to out myself, you know, some hard way, like give me a freaking box so I can tell you. Right. So, you know, that's like a small example, but I think it's more, the larger point is, you know, unfortunately we still live in a world where, you know, LGBTQ people face all sorts of discrimination and stigma and shame. And that all translates to, you know, both medical and psychological, you know, challenges that are unique, you know, LGBTQ young people still have disparate rates of substance use for, for reasons relating to that disparate rates, rates of homelessness, uh, you know, larger rates of, uh, you know, suicide ideation and depression.

49:47Right. And so this is all part of a big picture. And yeah, I think I agree with you. I used to work with someone who would say, I want there to be no need for someone to be sort of LGBTQ friendly or firming because every doctor in every facility should be. And I agree with that. The problem is we're not there yet. Yeah. No, I learned my lesson. Then I established a place of honor and like, okay, cool. So I'm cool now. Well, it does make you cool. Yeah, there you go. I guess. But we always do this thing with our guys called you're probably going to be okay. And a lot of times it's, you know, if I have a physician on or healthcare provider, I kind of give them a clinical scenario.

50:30But I wanted to kind of change it a little bit because there was this one line in your article that just like I can almost have it memorized. But I could just probably remember it for the rest of my life because it sums up so much of why I think this is so important, what you did. I kept my shame and fear to myself, right? So that's so, I mean, it's such a perfect line. It's so simple, but it packs so much punch. And I see so much of this as my practice as a urologist, where the guys come in, they suffer with issues. They might even tell their family members or intimate partners, and then they open up to me.

51:07But I'm the only guy out there that maybe they open up to about this. Guys that will become shut-ins for years if they have a disease state that they're not comfortable sharing with anybody else. And so I guess I'm asking you, and this is pretty heavy. I get this, Brad. But for every guy out there listening today, if he's suffering in the shame and fear, is he going to be okay? Like, how do we get that guy okay? And you don't always have to say yes. I mean, there's going to be one episode where guys are like, nope, that guy's toast. But let's not that be today. No, I would say, I mean, look, there's gradations of what it means to be okay.

51:44I think that's kind of an individual determination, right, about when someone arrives at a spot where they're feeling like they can take to go to your earlier kind of moment of like a breath where they feel like something maybe has settled or they're in a new place. I will just say from, you know, from writing the piece and getting the feedback, it was just very heartening that most of these stories are about people. I think they're more similar to my story. There's more similar stories to mine than the opposite, which is this thing that seemed really hard and was never going to end, or was always going to be a source of consternation and worry and shame, that that was just a given was going to go on forever.

52:24That it turns out, you know, through, you know, some people it's talking with a partner and or a therapist or, you know, and or a friend, whatever the case may be, that it turns out that most of the people, you know, maybe it's self-selecting, but most of the people that reached out were, I found a similar, you know, it was hard in some ways in my, you know, some people shared about how it was harder for them for various reasons, uh, things they went through, but they arrived at a spot where it's, uh, you know, this was part of who I am or as part of who I am and, um, have made kind of a level of peace with it and has not become the kind of dominant, you know, feature of their life.

53:05I think that's kind of what, you know, my takeaway was that for a lot of these men, it became one thing among other things, as opposed to, you know, this is the thing that I'll always think defines me or is my great, you know, my great story that I'm not sharing or my great shame. And I think there's a lot of, I was heartened by what people shared. And I think that's probably true for more people than not. Well, and I think, you know, suffering in silence is a whole different kind of suffering. And I think that's one thing that you did such a great job by doing this piece is that no one is alone, that everybody has their own travails and their own shame.

53:46And I even hate to use the word because there's nothing you can be ashamed about here, but this is just how we interpret these external signals that made us feel less than, but that we don't have to do it alone. And so, I mean, the courage that he took and also your creation story of how long it took you to get to this point. And even that first, the first run of your article where it was more angry and then it just turned into this beautiful piece of, you know, again, I just had a deep breath because it just kind of fills me with joy as a provider, but also just somebody that can have a great conversation with another guy about something he went through that is able to share it is totally cool, man.

54:21Jordan, what else you got for Brad here? Oh, man, I mean, I think you really, you hit on all the big topics that I was thinking of. I just think, just to echo what Dr. Mills says, it's been incredibly powerful reading your piece and talking to you about it now. I mean, shame is something that we really return to again and again on the show, which wasn't something that really occurred to me until we were in the midst of production. And it is funny how many men, probably people in general, but men specifically are ruled by their shame. And we had a psychologist on talk about the male shame epidemic and how the root of so much, you know, inner turmoil and rage is shame.

55:05And I think that the more we can do to kind of help eliminate that and help people release that is, you know, an incredible thing. And I think what you've done is so beautiful and helpful. Thanks for that. Yeah. You know, we also talk a lot about joy though, Jordan. That's true. That is true. That's the beautiful thing about what we do is that Brad is a multifaceted person. He's got a lot of interests and has done amazing work in general. But one thing that I always like to ask, guys, is what does bring you joy? You know, what makes you, you on a daily basis, what are your non-negotiables for waking up in the morning and saying, all right, you know, before I, before I feed the cat, which I know in any cat household, there is nothing before you feed the cat.

55:54You're not going to get anything done. So, so that's sort of like the price of waking up in the morning is, is that. But then after that, what, what is your, what is your non-negotiable, Brad, that you have to do? Well, it's become my ritual. It really is. And it does relate. DJ Hester Prynne on your episode talked about kind of the power of music to kind of set a mood and kind of set you on your way. And I start most days very early because, to go to your point, I want to wake up before everybody else wakes up. The cat is with me, but the dogs haven't woken up yet. And my two kids have not yet woken up if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is sleeping at least till 630 or 7 on good days.

56:36So I'll start with a cup of coffee and the same Spotify playlist every single day and the same start. Some of my writing friends are sort of like, oh, I left out the part. And then I'll read a few pages of a book, whether it's nonfiction or like something about writing to kind of just get me going. And then I'll start writing. I'll open my laptop, hit the playlist on Spotify. and I've kind of learned that even on the days where I really do want to sleep longer, right? I actually don't want to sleep because I do this on the weekends too. I don't want to get up at 5 30 in the morning. The problem is, is that I already, if I don't do this before everything else starts, I definitely don't set myself up well for the rest of the day.

57:18And so there's a ritual with that. And there's kind of a mood making. I shared it with someone who said, oh, it sounds like you're extending your dreamlike state, which I thought was really cool. Cause you know, I've referred to kind of the quietness of the morning and then the music and I'm like kind of in my own space and they're like, it sounds like you're still dreaming. And I'm like, that's amazing. Yes, I'm still dreaming. I love that. But I'm awake, which is a really nice way to start the day. So what are the songs? I mean, give me the top three.

57:47Cat. My cat, I want everybody to know it just knocked over my mic. Hopefully Jordan, you have a wizardry that could take away that terrible sound. We're keeping it. It's too good. It's too good. You know, it's funny. I know the three songs. The first is Champagne Problems by Taylor Swift. The second is Once Upon a Poolside by The Nation. And it was Nation or National. I can't remember. And then the next is, is it Pink Skies by Luke Bryan? and those three songs in succession, I think are somehow this like constellation of like reflection and nostalgia and, you know, longing. It just kind of sets me into the right mood.

58:34Yeah. Multiple genres, one artist, one genre. So that's, that's eclectic just like you. I love it. We'll go with that. Yeah. We'll go with that. Well, Brad Snyder, thanks again for delivering on the mail room. Anything you're working on, what can I plug for you? What do you have that guys work when they find you? I know bradmsnyder.com is your landing site, which is a hoot just to go to to get a little bit more idea about who you are and what you do. But what are you working on now? Yeah, I mean, I'm always writing essays and trying to get them published, but I have a full-length memoir that's a full manuscript right now about kind of a coming of age or coming through story about the twin challenges of my adolescence and young adulthood, which was really my parents' divorce.

59:22and then kind of a delayed reckoning with my own sexuality and sort of how those two strands kind of take me on my way to where I am now, which is in a better place and a happy place with my husband and two kids and my cat knocking over microphones. So if anyone's an agent and wants to introduce me to an agent, you can find me on my website or Brad M. Snyder Writing on Instagram. But otherwise, I would just say, you know, it's been really – I've been really grateful for people reaching out to share their stories. So if someone hears this and just wants to send a note, you know, and say hello, I will answer it because it's been, you know, one hopes when they put things into the world.

59:57The point is, is that maybe it will resonate with someone else. And I'm always grateful when that actually happens. Dude. Yeah. No, totally. It resonated with me big time. I thought it was great. Actually, I think this is one of the articles my wife said, hey, you should read this. This is really interesting. And so most good things I credit her discovery of having you on. But it was just brilliant. I appreciate everything you're doing for all the communities, but also just for men's health and understanding. Yeah, we've got a long way to go, but we're a lot farther than we used to be in terms of trying to shed some of our stoicisms and get out there and show each other what we're all about.

1:00:36So thanks again, Brad. Amazing. And look forward to reading more from you in the future. Thank you so much. And back at you and Jordan, this is fantastic. Long Transit. Guitar us out. Thanks so much. We'll see you all next time.

1:01:17Let's talk about it in a minute. The Mail Room with Dr. Jesse Mills was a production of iHeartRadio. It was executive produced by Jordan Runtog. It was edited, mixed, and mastered by Bahid Frazier. And the theme was provided by Long Transit. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave a review. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This program is intended for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your health care provider for any medical or other related questions or concerns.

1:02:00The views and discussions aired on this podcast are those of Dr. Mills and do not represent the official positions of UCLA or UCLA Health.

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