Why Sex Feels Hard (Or Not): Ejaculation Dysfunction, Mismatched Libidos & Myths That Hold Men Back

27:44So I think there are some cases with men where it's quite similar. The other piece that I often see is sort of like what I'll call like the masturbation training. Like some of these guys have been sort of training their bodies to edge over time and delay and intentionally delay ejaculation. Or I've also seen cases where clients need like a very specific something in order to ejaculate. Like I had one client who had to cross his legs in a very specific way and sort of like squeeze his thighs together in order to orgasm. And he could do this during masturbation, but it was very hard to replicate during partnered sex.

28:29So sometimes part of this is sort of like identifying like, what is it that your body needs to orgasm during masturbation? And is, can you replicate that during partnered sex? And so sometimes there's like almost sort of like a retraining of the body. And I would say sometimes it's possible, you know, neuroplasticity, our brains can relearn things. But I would say like, sometimes it's so deeply rooted that it's, it's really hard to sort of, you know, retrain or like, there's a reason that they started masturbating that way because their body doesn't get enough stimulation from, you know, a way that is more easily easy to replicate during partnered sex.

29:08Yes. No, I, I remember I had an interview and we're going to get into this in a little bit too, about pornography and masturbation, but I interviewed with Playboy magazine years ago. I think that's when my mom finally realized that I made it in the world when I did a Playboy interview. My quote was something like, you know, the, there's no orifice that has the surface tension of a guy's own hand. And maybe that's sort of what you're saying is that guys, that they get used to something. And actually I'll ask you this. I had a, I had a couple years ago, this has happened a few times in my practice because I do a lot of work in the fertility community as well, as you know.

29:44And I had a couple where a very loving couple, no red flags at all that they weren't going to be fantastic parents. But the man had never been able to orgasm through intercourse, through within the vagina, even with a condom on. But he had no problems finishing. And so their sexual practice was mutual masturbation, essentially to achieve orgasm. But boy, from a fertility perspective, it was a non-starter. There was no possible way that they were going to have a baby through spontaneous intercourse. And thankfully, she was an amazingly accommodating woman. And that was probably just the way that he was wired maybe.

30:31But talk to me, it would be anything I could have done differently other than referring them to you. If I didn't, I don't remember, I may have that, that you would say, well, gosh, you know, this is, this is okay. It's just, it's, you know, we're gonna have to work around this in order to figure out a fertility aspect. Well, so one of the things that I tell almost all of my clients, usually within the first session, if not the first two, is the broader your definition of sex, the more sex you can be having. So if you limit your definition of sex to like penis and vagina intercourse, if you can't do that, that's, you know, quite unfortunate.

31:06Like, oh, I'm never gonna be able to have sex again. Whereas like, if your definition is much broader, like, for example, this couple, you know, this, this, like the mutual masturbation piece or oral sex, or, you know, whatever it might be, if all of those things include are included in your definition of sex, you can be having a lot of sex with your partner. So like my, my baseline is any sort of sexual interaction counts. And if that works for you and your partner, like a plus, great. But yes, when it comes to making a baby, that doesn't work. So I would say like from a sexual connection perspective, yeah, like that's awesome.

31:45That's great. That's wonderful that they found this thing that works for them. um uh but i would say yeah like so for the people who are like well that's not good enough you know i want to be able to do these other things and have intercourse with my partner um one of the things that i will often suggest or recommend is like are you familiar with a flashlight i've heard of them yes okay so for those who are not familiar with it um it's almost like uh they don't really make these much anymore but like when you used to go on camping trips and you have those giant flashlights that are, you know, weigh like five pounds and they're about, you know, three or four inches wide and they're like almost like a spotlight.

32:24Um, the casing looks like that, but you open it up and there's like a vaginal, a rubber vaginal canal inside. Um, and so it sort of mimics the shape of a vagina. So I would say, um, yeah, it's like a rubber latex whatever um so i would say like the og was the fleshlight um but now there's like millions of them um there's like a few japanese companies that make really so like essentially they're like sort of masturbation tools there's some there's a japanese company that makes like a disposable one and you can buy like a 10 pack of them and you just use it and pitch it whereas like a lot of people with the fleshlight get annoyed with it because the cleaning is a lot of work to clean up after use.

33:08You said you had to avoid that portion of the landfill if you just go into the area where there's a bunch of disposable. Right. Yeah. So what I often recommend for these clients, like if it is really important to them to try to be able to do this with their partner, I often encourage them to move away from masturbating with their hand completely. So like, like you said, you know, nothing can get tighter than the hand. And so moving away from the hand and using like limiting their, you know, sexual interactions to either, you know, sex with their partner, or if they are going to masturbate using one of these, like masturbation tools.

33:51And so like, to me, it's sort of like the, you know, the neurons that fire together, wired together. So the more we train our brain to do something a certain way, the more it likes to do it that way. So part of this whole sort of brain retraining piece is this element of like creating or utilizing experiences that are as akin to intercourse as possible. And so for some people over time, their body is sort of like, okay, well, if this is what we're working with, I guess I'll, I guess I'll, I'll find a way to enjoy this. For some people, it's a little bit more challenging. And, and it's also really hard when you're competing from a behavioral perspective of like, you know, it's sort of like giving the rat cocaine versus giving it sugar water.

34:33Like if it has the option of cocaine, it's always going to choose the cocaine. Born and raised in the eighties with the Eagles and the sunset soundtrack. I get it. Hard to get out of those guys. Right. So like, I think from a behavioral perspective where it gets tricky is trying to convince someone, here's this thing that, you know, feels really good versus here's a thing that doesn't feel as good, but there's this potential for it to sort of improve your connection with your partner. It's from a brain perspective, it's a little bit of a tougher sell on the dopamine front. But you're basically saying practice as you play.

35:09I mean, that's pretty, that's pretty amazing advice that gives guys a little bit of a roadmap. They're still being sexual, but they're moving towards a goal of being able to have partnered intercourse with a better payoff. I love it.

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38:13Well, I have to pivot over because, I mean, again, I can guarantee I knew at the beginning of this that I'd say we're going to have to have you back. But I will say we're going to have to have you back. But let's talk a little bit about libido mismatch because it actually dovetails a little bit if with this delayed ejaculation or difficult orgasming. A lot of guys, either it's straight problems with erectile dysfunction where their libido isn't there or it might be there, but they turn off. and the partner's willing, but they aren't. What do you do with those couples? And I think we'll hit some scenarios as well on both sides.

38:49So if a guy's overly horny and his partner isn't, or vice versa, if the partner isn't as horny, but the guy is, walk me through that. And I see this across all spectrum of relationships. And it seems to be no gender boundaries. And so, yeah, walk me through kind of your day in the office with a couple that's suffering from libido mismatch? Well, I mean, yeah, like you said, you know, sort of the gender piece is irrelevant. And I would agree. And I think like, you know, oftentimes I have people who, you know, just, oh, you're a sex therapist, blah, blah. So like, do you just see like the stereotype is that I just see all these sex hungry men who have wives who have no interest.

39:32And I would say like the reality is, is like, it really is more 50-50. It's really not this piece of, yeah, like the women who don't want it and the men who do. I have plenty, plenty of men in my office who are the lower desire partner. So I generally refer to them as like who's higher desire, who's lower desire. And so like one of the baselines that I talk about with all couples is just due to the laws of physics, there will always be a higher desire or a lower desire partner in the relationship. Like there are no two humans who have the exact desire all the time at the same time. For every libido, there's an equal and opposite anti-libido.

40:14Exactly. That's one of Newton's unpublished laws. Okay. Exactly. Yes. So like just sort of starting with the baseline of like, you know, there are no two people who are always on the same page at all times. So like what you are experiencing is normal, like, you know, just in the same way that there's no couple that like both partners are equally hungry for tacos at the same time every day. I don't know. Don't bring tacos in. I think my wife and I are always hungry for tacos at the exact same time. I was actually just going to say, I think my husband and I are also always hungry for tacos. We're huge taco people if we're still talking about tacos.

40:52But so like, I guess the reason why I'm explaining this is also because I think for women, it's a little bit more normalized because it's such a cliche, sort of like the sex hungry husband chasing after her. For men, I see a lot more shame around it. They're sort of like, I'm not supposed to be like this. I'm supposed to want my wife or my partner all the time. I'm supposed to just, again, the objectification piece. I'm supposed to be a walking hard on regardless of how I'm feeling or where I'm at emotionally. So I think one of the things that I do just sort of like to unpack first and foremost is just like, yeah, like the feelings around it.

41:31How does each partner feel about it? What does this mean about the relationship? Because a lot of times people sort of dive into this deep, like, oh, this means I'm never going to have sex again, or this means my partner's not attracted to me anymore. And so like, you know, either it means like, they're just going to kind of check out emotionally, or they're going to cheat on me. Like, there's so many places that people's mind jumps to. And what ends up happening is that it becomes, not that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and that all these people cheat or all these people check out, but it just exacerbates the problem instead of really diving into how do we reconnect?

42:08How do we make this something that we both enjoy? Usually what I do see a lot of is that one partner didn't really enjoy the sex, And so they kind of just participated. And then over time, like the, you know, the new relationship energy or the excitement associated with the person has died down. And there's sort of a homeostasis and then sort of like, well, I don't, I don't have to do this thing that I wasn't that into anymore. Like, we're good, we're secure. Like, I don't, I don't have to. And so they kind of just slowly check out. so I would also say a big place that I like to start is like you know what was enjoyable about the sex that you were having or like tell me more about the sex that you don't want to be having well every time I have sex my partner is disappointed it's not good enough I'm not doing this I'm not doing that so like I don't want to be berated anymore or I don't want to do this thing that my partner doesn't enjoy or that like I'm not doing it good enough or like I don't want to get picked apart sometimes it has nothing to do with the sex itself like sometimes like I think Americans love to think that they are immune to stress and they can endure anything.

43:17But like the reality is, is like we are human and we are more stressed than ever. So I think there's also this huge piece that people underestimate about like, oh yeah, like working full time, raising kids, remodeling a house, starting a new job, like whatever it is, navigating in-laws, like, you know, all of this, trying to make ends meet, trying to, you know, whatever it's a lot on the system and then it's like on top of that we're supposed to like have fun and be playful and I would say like having fun and being playful is a muscle like you know just as much as being able to you know show up and do the grind is and so when you don't flex that muscle you don't practice that muscle you know oftentimes it's sort of that experience where it's like when you have an hour to yourself what do I do with myself well you you described almost every couple in Los Angeles with that litany of things that are going on.

44:12So let me ask you this. I have a question that I ask a lot of patients that I see that come in for erectile dysfunction or poor libido. And I ask them the vacation sex question. And I say, when's the last time you had vacation? Most of them will say three years ago, but if they had it within the last month, luckily, and I say, well, did you have lots of sex on vacation? And if they say yes, I say, great, then you don't really need me as a urologist. You need to take more vacations. You need to find a good job. Right. I mean, like, you know, you mentioned the nervous system. Like, if your nervous system is so accustomed to constantly being in the go, go, go mode, it becomes harder and harder to switch it into the, you know, rest and digest, you know, relax mode that is required for sexual pleasure.

45:00Do you believe in the, in the scheduled sex? Do You say, okay, Wednesday hump day at nine o 'clock, kids are in bed. You and me, we're doing this. Talk to me about how effective that is in your practice for the busy couples. I absolutely do. I am a big proponent of the scheduled sex. I'll explain why. I think the scheduled sex is because, first of all, in this day and age, if you do not schedule something, it does not happen. You know, if you go to the gym, nobody just sort of spontaneously says, huh, I think I'll go to the gym right now. Or like maybe if you do, you have the time and the space and the opportunity to do that, you know, maybe once every two or three weeks that like the clouds magically part and it's like, oh, I have a free hour.

45:47Let me go to the gym. Like usually what people do is they say like, all right, like I'm going to get to the gym on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. These are the times I'm going to go. And where it gets extra complicated is you're not just managing your own schedule. You're managing two people's schedules. So it's not just my clouds have magically parted and I'm suddenly feeling this feeling or wanting this feeling, but like I need my partner to have that or their clouds part at the same time. So I would say like logistically speaking, it's really challenging when you have that many moving parts in your life.

46:19So I think it's really important, particularly for busy people, that they do schedule it. the other reason why I think it's really important is hopefully this is new information for you. But there's two types of desire. So there is what we sort of colloquially know of as desire, which is spontaneous desire. That's sort of like I'm cooking dinner or I'm taking a shower or I'm at work and it's like, boom, I get hit by a lightning bolt and I'm like, oh, I want to have sex with my partner or like, Oh, I'm really aroused. Like I want to do something about this. I want to have sex right now. This sort of like out of nowhere, my body just kind of like, it just snaps on and it's like, Ooh, or like, yeah, suddenly I look down and I'm, you know, I have an erect penis or suddenly I like, you know, I'm lubricating and I'm like ready to go.

47:09That sounds like 10th grade algebra class. That's literally, yes. Like the teenage version of like, I just like, Oh my God. Oh my God. I don't even like algebra. What's happening here. Exactly. So a lesser known version of desire, and oftentimes it's sort of considered like second tier, but I think it's equally as important is what you would call responsive desire. so this is the piece where like somebody needs a little bit of like sort of massaging and remind and I don't mean physical massaging I mean like mental emotional like some sort of like I would say like foreplay if you will in some regards but some sort of thing that kind of like prompts them to want sex so like that could mean like your partner kind of walks up behind you and starts massaging you.

48:03And while you were thinking about all the shit I have to do and this, that, and the other, and then all of a sudden your partner is massaging you and you're like, Ooh, that was kind of nice. Whereas like, if you were doing what you were doing, you never would have thought of sex if your partner didn't touch you. Um, so, so this element of responsive desire is that like the desire kicks in, in response to like a stimulus, but if the stimulus isn't present, it may never kick in. And so when you schedule sex, you are essentially saying, I am going to be intentional about creating a stimulus here.

48:38Whereas like, if you're just sort of walking about on your merry way and hoping that the lightning hits you, you could be waiting a really long time. It's almost a Pavlovian response, or as the great country poet, Brad Paisley said, sometimes a back rub is only a back rub, but maybe not. Right, right. Yeah. Well, again, I mean, those are some huge action items in that and trying to figure out how libidos can get somewhere on the same page. So I think we have to move on just because we can do this forever. But give me your thoughts on porn. Like if I see a guy that comes in and he says he has erectile dysfunction.

49:19And again, it sort of puts a cap on all that we're talking about here. but it's really only with partners because he has no problem masturbating seven times a day. Is that guy going to be okay? Is that a different guy than the guy that comes in and said, yeah, every once in a while, you know, I'll watch porn or my partner, I'll watch porn because it turns us both on. Walk me through what's bad and what's good. I mean, with alcohol, we know a couple of drinks a day, you're probably okay. With cigarettes, none is good, right? Ever, ever, with, you know, with shopping, you know, as long as you're not in credit card debt, then you're probably going to be okay.

49:54But porn, I mean, now that it's free and everywhere, what are the limits? What are the guardrails? What are the things that I can impart to my patients that I see? Because I have sort of the thought in my own head, but I'm not going to impart my own opinions on somebody else's experience. God, I could talk for hours about this. That's why you're coming back. So I would say sort of like the short answer is, first of all, I think porn is very similar to alcohol in the sense that like for some people, it's not an issue. They can do it casually every now and then. It doesn't get out of hand. It doesn't cause problems, etc.

50:31For others, it is a black hole. For others, they are sort of like sucked into this kind of like, you know, abyss, and it's just a never ending need for like more and more dopamine. And so I think part of what we're talking about, and part of what gets really glossed over is that like, everybody has different brain chemistry. And some people's brain chemistry is significantly more responsive. And, you know, dare I say, addicted to these sorts of behaviors. Whereas other people like their their serotonin just isn't it doesn't work that way so i think the baseline is to say that like everybody is a little different so there is no one size fits all but so like in the same way that somebody with like a you know history of alcoholism and their family might want to be more careful about alcohol somebody who you know uh you know has more addictive tendencies probably wants to be careful about porn because like it activates all the sort the dopamine systems and centers that is akin to a lot of these addictions that we see.

51:37But so I would also say like, what also gets tricky is the research. So like the research is literally split down the middle. There is research on both sides. Porn is bad for the brain, it creates all these problems, blah, blah, blah. And then there's research on the other side, you know, people who watch porn report having better sex lives, more frequent sex, blah, blah, blah. So like what ends up happening is the people who are in favor of one side talk about that research. And by first, I mean, we see this all the time with research. So the research is really split and people often tend to sort of side with the research that represents their beliefs or opinions.

52:19What I tend to see, it's safe. I see people using it. I mean, at least the people who come to my office are coming because they have a problem. So there could be, you know, millions of people out there that it's not a problem for, but I don't see that. So I don't hear about it. But the people that I see, oftentimes, it creates a lot of problems in their life, creating a rift in their relationship, it's impacting their ability to focus on work, it's impacting their ability to get sleep at night. I've had clients who literally have like injuries from masturbating too much, like carpal tunnel, like wrist injuries from going down these sort of porn, you know, K-holes, if you will.

53:02Yeah. No, penis injuries too. Yeah. I see. Yeah. Oh yeah. Penis injuries as well. Absolutely. Well, things to their penis with, uh, just with porn and just frequent. Yeah. So, right. So like when you have people on their soapbox saying porn isn't bad, it's like, well, sure. Yes. Like for the majority of people it's not, but like, it's also, So there are people who it legitimately causes problems for. You bring up this idea of a selection bias in biostatistics where you're right. If there are plenty of guys that don't need your help, they're not going to come in and see you. But for the guys that are saying, whoa, you know, Natalie, I just ruined a relationship because I'm never able to be intimate with my partner and I just can't seem to get offline.

53:43So, I mean, that's such a big thing. And I see especially younger guys, my undergraduate students that may have been introduced to porn when they were nine or 10 and 12 or some early, early age. And now they're trying to regain or trying to establish normal intimacy patterns when they're in college. How do I teach a guy and should I teach a guy what to do? How do you wean off this? So, I mean, one of the things that we know about like, you know, dopamine and serotonin and sort of how these things kind of like process and refill in our brain is that like the sort of the rapid fire element reinforces it.

54:26You know, it's sort of like if you think of a faucet, you know, the rapid fire images make the faucet turn on really fast, but like the well empties eventually. eventually and so like part of part of this process is also like one of the things we know about neural pathways is once they learn how to do something they do it really quickly and then they want to do it faster and faster and faster it's really hard to do the ween because our brain is sort of like well this is the path why would i slow down i already know the path there's no need to slow down right um and so it's sort of like if i'm going to take the path i'm going to take it at full speed.

55:04So the approach that I generally recommend in these situations is the abstinence approach. And so, you know, like, and I want to be really clear that I'm not coming at it from a sex negative standpoint. There's a lot of people that also have the, you know, anti-porn means you're a sex negative. And then I will be clear, I'm not anti-porn in any way, shape or form. This is more strictly as it relates to like helping people regulate their dopamine systems, because that's really what we're talking about. Porn is just a mechanism to do that. It could be porn, it could be gambling, it could be shopping, it could be food.

55:38Like there, you know, it could be relationships. There are a million ways that people do this, video games. So I am not like anti any of these things. I am pro helping people regulate their dopamine system so that they feel happier and better and more regulated in their life. So I would say like my encouragement is often the abstinence approach. And again, it's tricky because it's essentially saying to the person, all right, the cocaine is there and the sugar water is there. You got to start choosing the sugar water. Like, well, why would I want to choose the sugar water? If the cocaine's there, cocaine's much better.

56:14Right. I mean, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is that I don't even know if this is really a Venn diagram, but it is, I guess, in that, you know, there's porn, there's masturbation. You don't have to have porn to masturbate and you don't have to masturbate while you're watching porn. And so is there a way to say, look, you can maintain intimacy. Just don't just don't watch porn. Do something that that seems to be that that cocaine, you know, but just do something. Yes. Right. So there's also, you know, this can also go back to, you know, in two ways, the neurons that fire together, wire together.

56:49So it comes back to this piece of in young men, it's shocking how many of them I ask, can you masturbate without porn? And the majority of them say no. The answer is I need porn in order to masturbate. So this idea of like masturbating to fantasy or sensation is like, huh, I'm supposed to do what? So for so many people, they really are paired together. So I would say like step one is like, again, like I, you know, masturbation is incredibly healthy. Like I knew that I would say it's a very, very rare case where I would ever tell somebody not to masturbate, or I think that it's harming their health to masturbate.

57:29So this is not about saying no to masturbation. This is about learning how to masturbate without like this intense stimulation firing at you nonstop. So I would say yes, like in terms of the Venn diagram, like the masturbation is that's we're good there. Like just but the question is, is like, can you do it without porn? Because there I absolutely have encountered people that have gotten to the point in their sexuality where they can't. But so again, like if you think about partnered sex, if you can't masturbate without porn, how do you you know, it's a lot more challenging to have unless you have porn blaring in the background of your sexual encounters like can you get aroused at all without it i love that yeah and i think you kind of gave yourself a call back to we were discussing earlier with just guys not being totally in touch with their own body and being dissociated and porn is kind of the walking hard on i think as you said the walking pedis versus really trying to understand the mind-body connection.

58:31And it seems like that is the quick, you know, the quick bump of blow is to turn on, you know, log in. There's no barrier to access, as you said, these days. Right. There's no barrier to access. You can access any sort of sexual act you want. You can access 15 different versions of it, rapid fire, one after another, like the ease, the intensity, the, you know, you know, it's like, if you like cake, it's like having 15 different pieces of cake in front of you at all times. Right, right. Well, I want to be super mindful of your time and your amazing family. I don't want to take you away from them any longer than we have to.

59:08So I do want to ask you, as a mental health specialist, I always like to ask guests, because what can I learn from you about what you do for your own mental health? Are there sort of three to five things that are must-haves you get up every day to center yourself, to be the best provider you can? What are your life hacks that I can learn from you? Well, so I would say, like, I mentioned it earlier, breathing. Like, I am totally guilty of forgetting to breathe. And so every now and then I have to really, like, pause, take a deep breath and just breathe. Try to be really mindful of like, am I, am I breathing?

59:46Am I letting the moment take me or am I like leading the moment? And so having like, you know, if I'm feeling dragged, I have to really pause and breathe. Um, and so I would say like being really mindful of my breathing, as is the case with most people, I have an on off relationship with meditation. Um, at the moment I'm in an on phase, um, but so trying to be mindful about like 10 to 15 minutes today. But, you know, as I'm sure many people experience it, it comes and goes. And I would say, like, this is also a hard one for me. But communicating, talking about my feelings, opening up, sharing with friends about how I'm doing, where I'm at, talking with my partner about, you know, how I'm doing and where I'm at.

1:00:31You know, I think I am one of those people who's Like, I will bottle things and just power through. We'll be fine. Power through. And so I think my self-care is really being intentional about slowing down, opening up. You know, I don't have to power through. Like, it's okay to, you know, talk about things. It's okay to slow things down. It's okay to acknowledge if something isn't feeling good. But those are things that I really do have to work at and be intentional about. Well, I think I didn't see you breathe once during this whole discussion. So I guess it must have been not too stressful for you, which I love.

1:01:06And I didn't see you power through. We just solved most of the world's mental health problems here in our discussion. So I'm so grateful to you. Natalie Feingert-Golberg, truly amazing resource to Los Angeles and to the world around. No, I look forward to many, many years of sharing patients and collaborating. anything that you want to plug anything going on that that is is near and dear to your heart. Yeah, so it's my website creating change la.com. I would say right now, I'm just really focusing on my clients and you know, both my like individual work and couples work. And I actually have a few therapists on my team as well.

1:01:49And so just really focusing on on helping people, you know, one, two people at a time. I do have the self-paced course because I found that there's so many people who want help, but are not at that point where they're ready to talk about it with someone face to face. So the course is sort of like it, like I said, it's self-paced it's six or seven videos. It includes exercises that, that people can do, you know, and, and so I think it's just an alternative for people who just like, aren't ready to, to face anybody else with this yet, but they know they want to work on it. So it's a wealth of information and how to's.

1:02:27Love it. Well, thanks so much, Natalie. This has been awesome. Yeah. Well, and thank you for doing this because I have so many clients that I have sent your way. And usually you are really great about getting them in, but your office in general tends to have quite a wait list. So for people to be able to have access to you is, it's great. Well, you know, I mean, anytime, just text me because I will get you guys in and we just, you have to come by, but we're just opened this 11 ,000 square foot men's center and it's huge. And so, you know, we have better volume access now. And so, yeah, anytime you have anybody, just let me know and we'll get them in soon.

1:03:04Yes, for sure. You are the best. All right. Happy to. All right. Thanks, guys.

1:03:17Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it, the mailroom. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it, the mailroom. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it, the mailroom. The Mailroom with Dr. Jesse Mills was a production of iHeartRadio. It was executive produced by Jordan Runtog. It was edited, mixed, and mastered by Bahid Frazier. And the theme was provided by Long Transit. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave a review. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This program is intended for educational and informational purposes only.

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