418 - From People Pleaser to Boundary Boss with Terri Cole

0:00Do you ever feel crushed by the endless obligations over the holidays? I mean, who doesn't? That's why today we're talking about how to set clear boundaries with love with my dear friend, Terry Cole, because sometimes saying no is the best gift you can give yourself. Terry Cole is a licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert. For over two decades, Terry has been working with clients and her special gift is taking complex psychological concepts and making them actionable and accessible. She inspires over a quarter million people each week through her courses, blog, and podcast, The Terry Cole Show.

0:35Her book, Boundary Boss, is available now. Terry Cole, thank you so much for being here. Okay, I got to say, congratulations. Boundary Boss is freaking awesome. I loved every moment of it. I feel like I was sitting with you. We've known each other for a very long time and I could feel you in the pages, just your brilliance, your intelligence, and your no-nonsense nature, which I think is something we appreciate about each other. So for those in my audience who haven't known you as long as I do, can you take us through a bit of your backstory and your journey from being a talent agent to being a psychotherapist and why boundaries is so important to your mission of empowerment?

1:14I sure will. And thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Well, let's see. They say you teach what you most need to learn. So I definitely had the experience of being a boundary disaster, having very porous boundaries, overgiving, saying yes when I wanted to say no, saying yes to multiple people for the same night. You know what I mean? Like, and then having to like, just not show up or cancel on some. So all of my life, I was raised the way many of us were raised to be good girls, to be nice, be nice. It was like being nice was like this virtue above all others, which is not the same as being truthful and not the same.

1:55So of course in my twenties, is I didn't know what my actual problem was, but there was conflict within my relationships. I got into therapy young. So when I was 19, when I was in college, I stopped drinking before I graduated college. So that helped like sort of spur my therapeutic journey quickly because I stopped probably 10 years sooner than I would have, which gave me 10 less years of bullshit. You know what I mean? In life and just distraction, pain and lighting fires and being like, why am I on fire? Those types of things. So when I got into entertainment, it became so clear how boundaries were such a major problem where between the bookers, I was negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities, like Pantene and movie deals and those types of things.

2:48but I could see how the industry itself, especially with the modeling part was so trampling on the models boundaries. Like there was so much overstepping. I was like, okay, and I kept trying to change this business. Like, who am I? Like I'm this little girl from New Jersey. And I'm like, you know what? Um, this is when I was at Ford and I was like, you know, I really think Katie Ford that Katie was running at that point. I was like, I really think that we should really make a concerted effort to stop calling the models girls because they're actually all women. Like most of them are over the age of 18.

3:23She was like, okay, anyway, you're in the wrong business. It just got to the point where I could see why I ended up leaving entertainment in general is that my own therapeutic journey, my own transformation was so energizing and invigorating to me. And I just couldn't believe that I could change. It was like, you know, you're dealt this hand in life and therapy made me realize if I don't like this hand, I can get new cards. And if I don't like this game, I can get rid of this deck. I can make it up because literally we are making it up. So that really profoundly changed the way that I looked at it.

4:06And I ended up leaving entertainment when I realized that I was way more interested in getting models and my clients into eating disorder clinics, rehabs, getting everyone into therapy than I was negotiating any deal. I was like, you need to leave. You literally no longer care about, you care about the people, but you don't actually care about the job. And really at the height of my career, when, I mean, I was running, um, the New York operations for a bicoastal talent agency, I quit my job and went to, and I really applied to one school. I applied to NYU to get my master's because I was like, listen, I'm not going to Ohio.

4:44Like I've been living in New York. Like I'm not, if I don't get into NYU, then maybe it's not meant to be. Apparently it was. And then I got accepted and was like, oh my God, now I have to go. You can't not go. Right. So that was the, the shift into mental health and becoming a psychotherapist myself. But when I got into the trenches with my clients is when I could really see that whatever the presenting problem was when someone came in, maybe they're not getting paid what they're worth or they're in a relationship that's very frustrating or their family of origin is a total shit show. Like there's all of these things.

5:20I could connect the dots backwards to this lack of this skillset of knowing how to establish and enforce healthy personal and professional boundaries, which includes talking true, right? As the subtitle of the book says, like speaking authentically. And I was like, this isn't, this is an epidemic. This isn't just like, Oh, I had this experience. I had this experience and worked my butt off to learn how to do this. And then I saw all of these other women. And that is what really led me to become obsessed with helping other women. I started, you know, a course a bunch of years ago and really beta tested all of this in a course because I was like, will it work with lots of people?

6:08Can I make it so that it's understandable and digestible and actionable? And the answer was yes, but I had five years to sort of do that before I wrote the book. Yeah, it's awesome. And I feel like having so many conversations with dear friends and colleagues, you're right. Right. You can start to trace it back and it's like, wow, boundary issue. And I even look back in my own life personally and professionally and where shit's gone off the rails, you know, nine times out of 10, it was like I was not really good at setting a boundary somewhere. And you know, for me, my particular flavor has always been, and again, you know me for so long, like over giving, over providing, over doing, over achieving.

6:52And it's come back to bite me in the ass more than once. And I feel like now, one of the things I was talking about last year was so funny. I was like, oh my gosh, like this, it came to me, Terry. It was like, I now have boundaries as big as the wall of China. Like, I'm just like legitimately like they are big. I like big boundaries that I cannot lie. Like I just, that is where it goes for me. So I wanted to get into this because we get asked about this all of the time. and it is an important topic. We've got a question here from one of our viewers in France, so let's have a listen. Hi, Marie.

7:30I'm Marie from France, and I've been having trouble finding the right balance between being generous and flexible and being more poised and respectful of my boundaries. So when I'm generous, I tend to give a lot of my time and energy, but I feel like I'm a pushover. And on the other hand, when I have more solid boundaries, I feel like I may be too strict and the other person may take offense. So my question is, how do I know when I'm being too generous or too rigid with the other person? Thank you so much. So Terry, I think Marie spoke into what a lot of us can feel from time to time. So for Marie, or anyone else watching who feels the same way she does.

8:24What do you say? How do we start to peel into this? Well, part of it is you really have to dial into your body wisdom and how you feel. So the real question for Marie in France is when you are giving, do you feel resentment later? Because you basically said, I feel taken advantage of. I feel like someone's kind of crampled on my boundary, but that's really on you to establish the boundary. So before you decide whether it's too much or too little, think back, huh? The last four times you said no or said yes. How did you feel afterwards? Did, do you feel sufficiently appreciated? Did you give from a place of equanimity and love, right?

9:14That's one thing we give from a real, a full heart, a full place, like we want to. But what I find when we're, our boundaries are disordered is that a lot of times we're giving from one of the other. We're giving from a place of fear. I'm afraid to be rejected. I'm afraid to say no. We're giving from a place of obligation. It's family. I should, even if it's a super inconvenience or even if I miss out on something. but what happens and you can always tell where you are in that boundary spectrum as to how you feel. And if you're feeling resentment after the fact, then you have to look and go, okay, so why did I give, or why did I give that much?

9:57The other way, because you also said, if I draw a boundary, I feel guilty and I worry that they'll be offended. Here's the thing. when you're learning to become a boundary boss, you will pretty much always want to take back the boundary. You will have such a desire to be like, I was only kidding. Forget it. I can work overtime or I can take your shift or I can do the thing I said I wasn't going to do. Even though you're like bitching to your friends about how entitled Betty is. And I can't believe Betty would ask me to do that again. Here's the thing. You have to think about what, what is that fear and wait 48 hours.

10:36When you draw a boundary, you have to really look in. And it's like, I guide you through this in the book of like top of mind at the end of the chapters. It's like this thing, like, think about this. Why do you feel guilty? Do you not understand what your boundary rights are and your rights in general? I have that right in the front of the book. It's like your boundary boss bill of rights. Yeah. I actually, I'm going to interrupt you to read that because it's so genius and then we'll go right back to you. So for anyone who wants to know, cause you're like, what are my bill of rights? You have the right to say no or yes to others without feeling guilty.

11:14These are all Terry's words. You have the right to make mistakes, to course correct or change your mind. You have the right to negotiate for your preferences, desires, and needs. You have the right to express and honor all of your feelings. things, if you so choose. You have the right to voice your opinion, even if others disagree. You have the right to be treated with respect, consideration, and care. You have the right to determine who has the privilege of being in your life. Amen. You have the right to communicate your boundaries, limits, and deal breakers. We'll talk about that. You have the right to prioritize your self-care without feeling selfish, and you have the right to talk true, be seen, and live free.

11:50you do. So, you know, not to quote Peggy, but if you didn't know, now, you know, um, those are actually your rights. And I think that if we can start foundationally from really living those, like the reason I put them right in the front was because I know that the zillions of clients that I've had over the past two and a half decades in my therapy practice, most did not know that you have the right. And we are raised and praised for being self-abandoning codependents. Most women we are, we get positive feedback and growing up, you know, we talked a little bit at the top about being a good girl and this is, you know, what we want to be nice.

12:31And we want everyone to like us. We don't want anyone to be mad. We really don't want to be rejected. So much of that is ingrained. And so part of this process of understanding why you are this way is that we go backwards, right? So you, you do your downloaded boundary blueprint, which is basically this unconscious paradigm in your mind of why you personally, Marie, or me personally, why do we relate to boundaries in relationships or in business? The very unique and particular way that we do. So I've seen the commonalities because most of my practice has been women and all of my courses, but you also were raised by different people in different cultures in different countries.

13:13So we have our own specific flavor to understand like, oh, it's hard for me to say no, because when I answer these questions about what did I observe growing up, one of your parental impactors might have been someone who had the disease to please, or who was very dependent on validation from outside. That would impact you because as a kid, let's say it's your mother or your maternal impactor, maybe it's an aunt or whoever, but we want to be like them. Like we are unconsciously drawn like, oh, this is what being a woman is. Selfless. You know, people always say things like, you know what? She's amazing.

13:56She would give the shirt off her back to anyone. And I'm all like, she's going to be cold. Why is that amazing? Like that is having no boundaries. Right? That is like, not everyone deserves the shirt off your frigging back be discerning. So I think a lot of what we're really talking about is how can we become discerning about how we give. And you had said before, Marie, about overgiving, right? About, yeah. You know, feeling compelled, having it yourself and me too, of course, obviously. And why do we do that? And what is that about? And part of it is really looking at your life experiences and that there is something in there for us.

14:41I know for me, I really like helping people. Like I actually still do, but now I do it healthily, not at the expense of myself. Yes. But when we really unravel this, there is something else driving a lot of times that overgiving and not just the obvious, like I want to be liked, or I want to be the hero. You know, I was the hero child in my family of origin. So being helpful to others and being the one who knew what people should do was incredibly ingrained in my life. But then what happens is you become this sort of auto fixer. And really, when you think about what am I doing and what was I doing throughout my 20s when any person who had a problem, I don't care, it could be like my, from my hair colorist to like my mail carrier, I'd be like, Oh Joe, I know exactly what you should do.

15:36Listen, I have this great book for you. Come on. I got them putting the pot of coffee on like actually. And what I found through my own therapeutic process. And then through being a therapist for many years is that I had a therapist. Oh my God. She was so amazing and brutal and awesome at the same time, Ruth. She said to me, um, I was talking about, I was over-functioning with one of my siblings and, you know, every family will have someone who is like the scapegoat, who's sort of acting out the veiled frustration of the group. Most people don't even know that that's how family systems work, but they do.

16:12So it isn't like the scapegoat was like, can't wait to be the scapegoat. They just are chosen by the system. Anyway, so she was always in bad relationships and painful and these things. So anyway, she was in a terrible situation and I was already in my late twenties for sure, probably early thirties. And I was crying to my therapist and being like, you know, this, I don't even know what to do. I've been sending her money. I'm telling her to do this. I'm going to try to get her into treatment. I know that she's drinking too much, but she was living in the woods without running water with a guy who was doing crack, who was physically abusive to her.

16:44So that's literally no embellishing. That was the actual situation. And I said to her crying, crying. And she was like, Terry, let me ask you something. what makes you think you know what jenna needs to learn in this life

17:07well ruth i think we can both agree that she doesn't have to learn it in a place with no water with this idiot does she and she's like well we can't agree to that tara because I literally am not God and I have no idea what your sister needs to learn, but do you know what's really happening for you? I was like, apparently not. So I'm assuming you're going to tell me. And she said, you've worked really hard to create internal peace and a peaceful, harmonious life. And your sister's life kind of being a dumpster fire is really messing with that piece that you have fought so hard for. So what you really want is you want her to get it together so that your pain can end.

17:54Wow. I was like, well, that's a different frame. Okay. You're like Ruth. Ruth coming in. She's telling the truth. But this is what, when we overgive, when we overfunction for others, this is what I call high functioning codependency, right because we can kind of do it all but not forever yeah and it doesn't lead us to peace and it doesn't lead us to freedom and it doesn't lead us to allowing other people the space and the grace to live their lives and take care of themselves yes and feel good about themselves like part of it is she was like also by the way you're taking away some of the urgency by giving her money these are all band-aids on like a gaping wound that only she can heal.

18:39So what is it that you need to do? And I was like, well, I think I need to step back because I can't listen to this terrible stuff. And I did said, Hey, if you ever really want to get help, get clean, I'm so your person. Um, until then I'm going to limit contacts. It's so painful. And then nine months later she was like, hi, I'm ready. I was like, can't wait to help. And she's been sober and amazing many years. Very happy. She's not, she has running water all, all as well. But again, it was not for me to do. And that's where the side of the street stuff kind of comes in where I literally thought that my sister's pain and her situation, I was obligated to help, to do, to fix, to change, to convince her to do something different.

19:28And that was really that whole thing with Ruth, let me see, like that isn't my side of the street. And it's so painful, especially when someone else's pain profoundly affects you. Real quick, are you on the Dream Club VIP list yet? If not, what the hell are you waiting for? If you want to make 2025 your best year ever with me as your mentor, go to marieforleo.com slash dreamclub now and get on that VIP list. Let's talk preferences, desires, and deal breakers. Because all relationships, right, they do require some give and take. I think this can probably show up perhaps most profoundly in our intimate relationships, but any significant relationship, whether that's family or colleague or friendship.

20:11What are these distinctions and why are they so important to understand, especially as we're on this journey to becoming a boundary boss? Well, first thing, the reason why I even wrote it that way and started doing this with my clients is that women would come in to see me and I would ask them, you know, what is your preference about this? And what brings you joy or questions where they were like, oh, I don't know. I'm like, why not? I mean, don't you want to know? So long ago before the book, I came up with this very in-depth list of what is okay and what is not okay in all areas of clients' lives.

20:50So that's from the lighting in your office to anything, how you're communicating in your love relationship, the way that you're being sexual with someone, every single thing. Because most of the time, if you're raised to just really want to avoid conflict, to, you know, it's very easy to confuse compliance with compatibility, you know? Say more about that. Yeah. That's so mind blowing when I got that in my life that a lot of my clients would be like, but I don't know. I kind of feel empty. I'm not sure, but I know what's wrong with me. I mean, my relationship is perfect. We never fight. Like, it's just perfect.

21:35I was like, well, I don't know. You might feel empty for lots of reasons, but just because you don't fight actually doesn't necessarily mean that you're being seen or heard or known that you are deeply connected to this person. So you've mastered the art of avoiding conflict. And that's one thing. But is that, does that really, is that the marker of an excellent relationship? It's not. So it's an important thing to think about. am I just compliant? Because I go along to get along. A lot of women in my practice have been very like, you know me, I'm easy. No fuss, no muss. That's me. I'm like, what is it?

22:15And why is that like a badge? What is it? I don't think it is. And what's wrong with having a frigging preference? Like knowing your preferences, your desires and your deal breakers, literally that is what makes you uniquely you. So where did we get it in our minds that if we are to share our preferences, that we are burdening another person or that there's something wrong with us. So compatibility is actually getting along, talking about real things, compromising, meeting in the middle, having respect for each other, having effective communication, all of those things. That's real compatibility.

22:58And yes, hopefully it goes along with liking to do some of the same things. But I just have seen this as a phenomenon that compliance and compatibility can be easily mistaken for the same thing. But your level of satisfaction in the relationship will be a dead giveaway as to whether you might be confusing compliance with compatibility. Because if you feel empty and you're not really satisfied, that might be what's happening. Mm. So like I would think, right, in terms of deal breakers, obviously preferences and desires, these are things that are coming from your heart. These are probably going to be really good things to communicate to those who you're in deep relationship with.

23:39And then I think that deal breakers bit, that's cool too. Like this is where it ends. Like, right? If something crosses this particular line, that's a deal breaker for me. Is that how you would describe that? I would. And I think that the thing that's really important though, that I find that women in general are always questioning if they have the right to have deal breakers, like setting limits. They're like, am I being unreasonable? Yeah. Or threatening. Oh, everything about boundaries, the fear, the myth is that you have to be hard and that you have to be like punching people in the face. And it's like Jersey Marie all the time, right?

24:21Like if you're a boundary boss, are you going to be just conflict and bawling people out? You're not. And actually, when you think about when you master anything, when you get to the end of this journey, you're actually doing it with ease and grace and when appropriate, love, because it won't always be appropriate. Like, you know, it could be your boss, you don't have to be so loving, but you know what I'm saying? Like, Like it's, it becomes easy because you know that you have a right to the way you feel. So let's make the distinction between preferences, desires, and deal breakers. Preferences are things that could go either way.

24:58It's like a nice to have, right? I would like it, but it's really like I have a preference to have coffee over tea. Most of those things are not like relationship ending, earth shattering, but they're still important that you know what they are and that where you can, you honor them. Why shouldn't you get what you want as much as possible if it's not like trampling on someone else, right? I mean, we make sacrifices all the time. We have families, we have spouses, we have partners, we have friends and family. Sure. But in general, I mean, I negotiate for my preferences all the frigging time because I want to, because I believe that my husband cares.

25:38I know he does what I think and what I want. And I care about him too. So it isn't like I'm trampling on him. If he says, you know, Tara, actually this thing is important to me. I'm like done. Yeah. Anything. If he says this matters to me because he doesn't often done. So preferences are things that you can share. Desires are really the ones. If he were to say, this is important to me, that's more like that falls in the desire category, but these are all boundaries, right? Because they, they impact what's happening in our daily lives. When you move into limits and deal breakers, you need to know yourself.

26:14I have this thing where I'm, I'm a highly sensitive person, and I share a bunch in the book about empaths and highly sensitive people, because these are my people. And so I don't like places with the loud music and whatever. So, and when I'm done somewhere, I need to leave. That's it. So I always make sure I can drive and I always make sure when it's time. So all my, my girl, I have the same friend since Nixon was in office. So as soon as I stand up wherever we are, she's like, Oh, it's time to go. She's ready to go. I'm like, listen, bitches. I don't care who doesn't leave. I'm getting in my car and I'm leaving.

26:46I'm not mad if you don't leave. I'll meet you at the house. Just give me keys. Like I don't, you get to a point where, well, I mean, those are also friends I've had for like five decades, but yeah, you get to a point where understanding your own limits and deal breakers means that you also know that you don't need to like write a dissertation to convince someone else that you have a right. I don't give a crap if my friends don't understand why I want to leave when I do. And I just leave like, I don't care. They accept me the way that I have. They think it's weird. Then fine. I'm weird. I literally really don't care.