430 - Boundaries, Fear, & Being a Professional Troublemaker with Luvvie Ajayi Jones

0:28Tired of the nine to five and thinking about launching your own business? Hey, it's Marie Forleo, and welcome to another episode of the Marie Forleo podcast. Now look, if you're somebody who gets held back by fear, you know, you want to do things, you want to say things, but you're completely afraid of what might happen if you actually do, today's show is going to change your life. Lovie Ajayi-Jones is a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and podcaster who thrives at the intersection of comedy, media, and justice. She's the co-creator of the hashtag Share the Mic Now global movement and host of the podcast Professional Troublemaker.

1:05You wrote, it's a life of, I might be afraid, but I won't let it stop me. Professional troublemakers recognize that the fear is real and that it's an everlasting hater, but it must be tackled. I love that. So can you define professional troublemaker for us? And for anyone that might be wondering, how does that differ from just like a garden variety shit stir? Do you know what I mean? From just being like, oh, I'm just going to cause some ruckus. A professional troublemaker is a disruptor and a change maker for the greater good. They're not just the people who are throwing bombs in a room. They're not just the people who are making people uncomfortable for the sake of it.

1:42Right. They're not just the people who are just like, you know, I'm just going to make I'm just going to annoy somebody today. They're the people who speak truth, who are almost unable to bow in a world that's constantly asking for it and who feel deeply passionate about making sure that they make this world better than they found it. And they will do it in the way that they know how. And usually it is with the truth. It is with challenging people and systems and ideas that are not OK. It is with knowing that the world will constantly scare you and saying, you know what, I'm going to wake up today and I'm going to do that thing that makes me uncomfortable and anxious.

2:17But I know that it is for something bigger than me. So, yeah, they're not the haters. They're not just contrarians. They're not just like, you know, shit starters. And they are people who feel this deep sense of obligation to the people around them, to the world that they live in and are like, you know, sometimes I might have to put myself on the line, but I'm going to do it because it's worth it for justice. Yes. I love how much emphasis in the beginning of the book you put on the power of knowing and being our fullest selves. And I'll be honest with you, you know, so many times, Lovie, I get interviewed people like, how are you so confident?

2:56And I'm like, A, I'm not. B, I still struggle sometimes with going like, God, am I being too much? You know, am I being too much? Am I overpowering? So there's so much to talk about. Um, you write to know who we are is to insist on knowing we are not what others put on us. We are not the names people call us. We are not our worst moments. Don't let people who can't even spell your name, right. Tell you who you are. That one had me cackling because I can't tell you how many times Maria I'm like, really, really? Like, like even folks who are paying me very good money to teach them things, you know, calling me Maria.

3:36Anyway, I would love if you could tell us about Ulriki. Did I pronounce that right? Ulriki. Yeah, Ulriki. Great. And the power of being crystal clear on who we are and that tradition behind that. Yeah. So Ulriki is a Yoruba tradition where it is basically a mantra that connects you back to your past, your ancestors, that reminds you of who you are. that's sanguine celebrations that you have, you know, birthdays, weddings, because Nigerians left a party Tuesday just because they feel like it. You know, you talk to the right person, they might just drop your reiki on you real quick for no reason.

4:12And it's really important because to the point of when, I've also been asked that. I remember getting off a stage one day when I keynoted a conference and somebody walks up to me and was like, how are you so self-assured? Because they were like, you have this grounded energy. And I was just like, Like, I don't know. I didn't know how to answer it then. I didn't know how to answer them then, but I now I know because I'm very clear who I am. And a lot of times people will shake us and move us away from who we are or call us something and we'll internalize that and say, yeah, you're right. I am this thing, but I need us to define who we are.

4:51And that's what Ulrike does for you in advance. Like it will tell you, remember who your parents are. Remember where you come from. Remember what you hold dear. And it was important for me to put that in the beginning of the book because for us to exist in this world, when we don't know who we are, when we're not grounded in who we are, we're in constant state of flux. We're constantly being punished because, you know, humans can be trash, right? one thing humans are really amazing at is othering each other we're so good at that we're so good at making somebody else feel bad yes we're so good at insulting each other and being like this is not you're not good enough so it is our jobs and our bodies to like insist on who we are even when somebody's calling us something opposite and that is for me is my guiding light my my compass like in my worst moments that is my guiding light like this is who i am i am clear about it doesn't matter what somebody says about me, I am still this person.

5:51And adults, we don't realize that we never got the practice of standing in who we are. So when another adult sees you and says, wow, you're so confident. It's like, am I not supposed to be? It's because so many people aren't. It's because we've been beat up by the world. We've been told we're not good enough. We've been told that we're stupid or we're too fat or we're too skinny or we're too this thing. And next thing you know, you're kind of lost. You're like, okay, I guess I am that. Yeah. So knowing who you are prevents you from, from being told who you are by random people, people who can't spell your name right.

6:27People who just would not be in the same room as you people who you would not break bread with. So yeah. I love to, um, because I'm a huge game of Thrones fan and I did a version of what you teach us all to do in the book, which I love that you have that formula. The right before I came out with everything is figureoutable. And I decided to do this Beyonce book tour launch. I was like, okay, I've never put on a concert before. And I got to launch a book and I'm totally like out of shape cardio wise. I literally love it. I wrote myself this thing on my phone and would look at it every day. And I was like, you are the breaker of chains.

7:05Like it was hilarious, but it works. And I just want to thank you for putting that because not only is it fun as hell, but we need to do that. And you're a hundred percent right. No one ever teaches us this. And so you feel like a ping pong ball around the world. And I feel like, you know, with social, especially these, these past years and you and I were similar in this way. It's like, we've been on the internet a long time. Like when I started my business in 1999, which crazy, right? It's like, we didn't have all these social, we didn't have any social media at all. And so now it's this constant potential to compare yourself or to hear feedback.

7:44And if you aren't grounded in who you are, you're a hundred percent right, man. It can get real easy to get lost. Yes. Like it's crazy, right? Like you're like, God, am I this? Am I that? It's like, no, no. So I want to talk about too muchness. You write, can you imagine if someone walked up to you and to your face said, I need you to be less. You'd clutch your pearls and be offended. But that is what they're saying when they say you're too much. They're just saying it in a less accusing and more shaming manner. So you take it to heart. Any place that demands you to shrink is a place that will suffocate your spirit and leave you gasping for air.

8:21Yeah. Yeah. Have you been told you too much most of your life? Oh, absolutely. You know, I show up as who I am no matter what room I'm in. And even if I'm not told to my face, I've definitely been told in different ways. Right. People wouldn't necessarily say you're too much. They'll just say it in different ways. It might be how they look at you. It might be them reporting you to HR after you make a, you know, make a statement in a meeting. It might be them saying, you know what, just be, just be quiet. You know, so there's different ways that people can tell you that you are too much. and in my life I found that usually the thing that is too much about me is typically my superpower right like the thing that people want you to quell the thing that they want you to be less of is typically the thing that you are gifted at so I used to grow when I was growing up I got in trouble for my mouth like I didn't get in trouble for climbing trees I got in trouble because I would be saying something to somebody about what I didn't like that they did or what wasn't fair And I'm just like that same thing that got me in trouble is what now allows me to take a stage and be on a TED talk stage and get five million views.

9:31That same voice, that same mouth, that same boldness is what now allows me to make a living that I would have never thought about. So when we're accused of being too much, I'm always like, you know, a lot of it is not even our business. A lot of it has nothing to do with us or what we did. A lot of it is other people projecting themselves on us or where they failed on us. So our job is to recognize those moments, figure out what to internalize, what to receive as constructive feedback and move forward. Yeah. You know what? I actually want to dig into that a little bit deeper because I loved that you broke it down in the book because people will ask.

10:12And I think it's a fair question. Taking the other side of the coin, if folks right now are listening or watching and they're wondering, okay, lovey, but what if, right? What if I am acting a fool in some kind of way? What if I am being a particular way that they're rightfully calling me out for being a little too much or whatever it is? How can we distinguish whether or not something is valid or as you call it, pure compost and trash? Sentient sewage. You have to ask yourself a series of questions about who is bringing this to you and how? What is their motivation? I break it down more in the book, but it's like the person who's bringing this to you matters, but also keeping in mind that sometimes they actually will be people who care about you.

11:01And that's when it usually will cut through the most. It's like your mom says it to you or somebody that's related to you says it to you, but you also have to figure out what they're carrying that made them bring that to you. And again, maybe you are too loud in the library. Yes. But are you being too loud by raising an objection about an idea that happened in a room that you thought the idea was thoughtless? Right. Are you being too loud in a moment when you're saying, hey, don't say this joke about this person? You it's it's it's it's things you have to kind of run through your own filter. Yes.

11:38To give credence to or not. Because, again, I think it's been a lot of time giving credence to a lot of people's ideas about us. so much time without also now checking ourselves and being like, but do I feel bad about what I did that caused them to give me this criticism? Yes. And I love, I have the three questions written down, um, just for anyone to walk themselves through. If they're like, huh, I really want to take a deeper look at this objectively. You have one, is this hindering my personal growth? Two, is this harming someone else? And three, is this critique coming from someone who loves and respects me?

12:18And of course you go deep into each of those questions and how to kind of parse through that. But I wanted to just at least top level outline that because I think it's so incredibly valuable in my life. I often tell people this, especially when they ask me about criticism. And this is the truth up until now. I have never received a piece of hurtful criticism from anyone that I love and respect. Anyone who I admire their work, anyone who I really appreciate who they are, how they carry themselves in the world has never slung a piece of like just harsh, hurtful, demeaning criticism my way. Even if people have an opinion to share or they're like, hey, I just wanted to share this with you, something for you to consider.

13:03It never comes through with, you know what I mean? With a knife. Yes. Not with a knife. That's a great point. That is actually a really good point. It doesn't mean that people who love and respect you won't bring great criticisms to you. It is the how that they will bring it. They're not coming to cut off your head. They're coming to be like, I am saying this because I'm expecting you to grow from it. They're not coming to be like, I want you to be in the fetal position after I walk away from you. they're not gonna do that and people who love you will not do that and if it makes you want to be in a fluid position that's something you also have to figure out like why am I taking it so bad but to your point in that the how oh my god like your friends your friends can check you your family can check you but they're not going to do it in a way that breaks your spirit that's right and that's a very big difference and I think that it's so important it's one of the best things about getting older.

13:58Like, you know, stuff that I used to just think was, you know, oh gosh, this is just how people act, you know, in your late teens or early twenties. And then you just start maturing and you're like, there's a whole different way to be. There's a whole different way to be. Because I mean, in our twenties, we were all trash. Yeah. 100%. It's a rite of passage to be trash in your twenties. It is a lifetime rite of passage. That is the, that is the, that is the decade where you can be a raving dumb ass because you're finally an adult, even though you're not really one, right? You're not going to high school.

14:30There's nobody who's on your back. That's like, have you completed this thing? The twenties is your first real decade of autonomy. So that decade exists for you to mess up in multiple ways. So you have stories to tell in your thirties. You get to look back and be like, thank God for gross. thank God for it. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yes. No. The fact that I even survived, it's kind of amazing. You know, the, one of the other things that again, so many times there was laugh out moments in your book, but I just love how much you love and appreciate and tell me if I'm wrong in this, but you're like, I'm petty.

15:08And you will go there for a second. And then you're like, but I'm mature now. I'm going to pull it back. And then you're like, but I need to sprinkle a little bit in. You had me laughing so hard and I just, it was so endearing and I love you so much for it because, you know, people will sometimes ask, they'd be like, but I'm really, you're always so positive. I'm like, I don't post everything I think on the internet. And cause I'm not, it was just like, I'm like, Oh God, lovey. I love you so much because it's just all there. We gotta be able to agree. Like we're all petty. Like, yes. Anybody who's, who says they're not petty is not being truthful.

15:43You cannot tell the truth. You cannot tell the truth. Also, if you can't be petty, what can you be? Like, petty is a piece that's necessary because sometimes people do things that you just have to side-eye them over or be like, come on. And sometimes you realize you're being the person who needs to be side-eyed. And one thing I am, to thine own self, be true. I know myself above all else. I'll tell you all my flaws first because I am very clear what they are. And being petty, I'm not going to stop being petty. Let's also be clear. Like you kept saying Jesus isn't done with me yet. And I'm like, I love you.

16:18I never take myself too seriously, even as I'm writing this book. And I'm like, listen, I'm a hot mess. I am a hot mess. Who's learning a lot. And I'm always sharing and learning out loud. Hot mess express. Ain't no shame about it because I will continue to be a hot mess. Don't expect me to be anything but a hot mess who happens to be growing. Right. I am a glowing hot mess, but I'm way better than I was in my twenties. And that's why this book exists. Like way better. I was a douche in my twenties.

16:53And we have to be able to say that we have to be honest with each other, like in with everybody. I've like, like, I think, and as public figures and people who are more visible, that vulnerability is necessary because we happen to fall and trip in In spite of and because of ourselves. Yes. On massive platforms. And our work has connected with millions of people and people see us in a certain way. But I'm always like, I don't belong on a pedestal. Do not put me there. Correct. I will disappoint you. I will fall off it. I will do something ridiculous because I'm a human who is petty in all her hot mess glory.

17:30Have all my random baggage. I just happen to have hundreds of thousands of people watching me. So it doesn't mean I have everything figured out. It means I'm sharing what I have learned, but on the way there, do not make me a hero and icon because you will set me up for failure. Correct. I remember, especially I was so insecure when I started, by the way, I don't know who the hell I think I was. I think that, I think the inner spirit of me knew who I was, but like in my twenties, like as a 23 year old life coach, who the hell's going to hire? Like, what was I thinking? I hadn't even lived life yet.

18:05I had piles of debt. Talk about hot mess. I had like failed at all the jobs I had. Anywho, I remember I distinctly would tell my clients, I said, look, I am no sage from the stage. I am a guide on the side. I am learning. I am growing. But I love what you said. This whole thing of like holding people up on pedestals. I'm like, y 'all, even like with everything is figured out, people like, oh, so you're saying you have everything figured out? I'm like, hell no. It's literally just a little phrase that helps me every day to figure stuff out. Yes. Yes. That's exactly it. It's like, we don't, we, we are set up to fail.

18:41We are set up to fail because people do think I never call myself an expert at anything. I am amazing at certain things. I know what my gifts are. I'm an amazing writer. I'm an amazing marketer. I'm an amazing storyteller. I will never call myself an expert because to call yourself an expert to say you have no other room to grow, that you have reached the pinnacle of this thing. You've learned all there is to learn about this thing. I don't ever call myself an expert. It's not because I'm being humble. It's because I am always committed to getting better at whatever that thing is. So when I call myself an expert, it means I can no longer get better at it.

19:14I'm no expert at anything. The only thing I'm an expert at is probably my side eye. I'm amazing. Like my side eye is pretty intense. I am an expert at giving side eye. So you know what? I will say that one. Yeah. You're like, I got no more room to grow there. I have no more room to grow there. So let's talk about, I think one of your favorite things to draw in life, which is lines, boundaries. That was when I was reading. So I woke up, it was like four o 'clock this morning. So by the way, okay, I have to tell you this little sidebar story. So before your book came in, Josh, my man, we're going to be together 18 years in like less than a month.

19:54He always calls me. He's like, you're being such a troublemaker right now. Like if I'm a little sassy or I'm a little, you know what I mean? Like poking him or just trying to get something started. And so he comes up the stairs in our house and I'm like tucked in bed. And this is what he sees. He's like, do you really need that book? He's like, do you really need to learn how to be an even more professional troublemaker? And I was laughing so hard. I'm like, Josh, this is like the best book. My friend Lovey just wrote it. He's like, I don't know if I want you reading that. I'm a bad influence on you.

20:26But yeah, it's like, I'm just going to have more trouble coming my way. I'm like the best trouble. I don't know where I was going, but anyway, boundaries. But I woke up at like 4 a.m. this morning. I went back to that chapter because I just wanted to just dig in and soak in it again. Let's talk about that because I think that's one of the biggest challenges that people have, especially in this world that we're still in. We're still in a pandemic. People are at home. A lot of folks have their families around. They have kids. They might have extended family. And so they're looking to maybe create something new in their life, create a new habit.

20:58They want to work on a book. They want to start a business. But they've kind of had a pattern where they're allowing all kinds of stuff to happen around them. And they're afraid of stating a boundary so they can be new. What would you say to anyone listening right now who's like, lovey, I need to hear your philosophy on boundaries? I need everybody to state their boundaries. It is so important. I am a huge boundaries person and I think I've always been a huge boundaries person. But I realize how important it is and how significant it is because I see how many people don't state their own boundaries.

21:35People have a hard time saying, here's what I expect from you. Here's how I want to be treated because people don't want to be considered mean. But let me tell you something. You sit there angry because somebody did something that crossed your boundaries that you never expressed. You're setting other people up for failure. You're actually setting other people up to piss you off. So I'll even give you an example. Social media is where boundaries get trumped all the time. Boundaries get just crossed constantly on social because everybody thinks behind the computer screen, we have full access to everybody.

22:14We can do whatever we want. We can say whatever we want. And all we do is sit back and we just sulk silently. One of the biggest boundaries that everybody has on social that they do not express is they don't like being tagged in photos that they're not in. Nobody likes that. Nobody likes it. But nobody says, don't tag me in photos I'm not in. So when it happens with me and people will tag me because they want my audience to see something, some flyers, some new product that they're doing, their random thing that has nothing to do with me, they'll tag me. I usually will DM the person and say, hey, please don't tag me in something that has nothing to do with me.

22:55If it's my work, feel free to tag me. If it's my words, please tag me to that. But if it's your thing, don't tag me. I do it all the time and people really get shocked by it. But each time that I do it, the response I usually get is, oh my God, sorry about that. I won't do that again. And then they don't do it again. But the times when I don't say it, that person ends up tagging me to five other photos and then I get angry. So what I need people to understand is one, it might be shocking to people when you actually express your boundaries. Two, most people will actually honor it once they know that's your boundary.

23:33And then three, it makes my life easier and it will make your life easier to do that thing because usually you only have to state it to that person one time. If the person now heard your boundary and continues to cross it, at that point, you do what you can to keep them out. Block them, delete them, whatever that is. But we must start honoring our boundaries by speaking them out loud. I also want to read your words here because again, highlighters and underlines all the time specifically about this. On page 185 of my galley, you wrote, this is also why I'm not shy about deleting foolishness that people bring to my online space.

24:09My social media is a dictatorship, not a democracy. I block, report a spam and mute as needed. I am not obligated to receive or consume debris that someone drops at my feet because as you write, people will bring trash to you if you are a willing receptacle. And that I was just like, book drop. I have talked about the fact, and I honestly, you've given me such confirmation because I was like, wow, I'm such an asshole. I'm actually not. Because there's been so many times I'm like, look, our social and my community, my places, I'm like, it's not a democracy. I, as a teacher and as a coach and as someone who's studied human psychology and adult learning for 20 years now, I'm very aware of the science.

24:54I'm also very aware experientially about how people learn. And as someone who is really committed to being a support for folks who are reaching for bigger dreams, who are trying to build a business or do something that is scaring the hell out of them, right? And they maybe have nobody else in their life that believes in them. Don't bring your trash to my place. It's like, no, you've got the whole internet. You go do anything you want. But in this house, it's sacred. Now, it doesn't mean that we can't have a bad day. It doesn't mean that, you know what I mean? That we can't just be able to express our humanness, but leave the toxic negative bullshit at the door.

25:33And otherwise, I will tell you, Lovey, I wrote about this and everything is figureoutable. I was like, would you ever let someone come into your home, your sacred home, and just take down their pants and like take a dump in your living room and then walk out and let you clean it up. And walk out. And walk out. And then it's up to you to clean it up. It's like, you would not, you would not allow that to ever occur. So you do not need to allow it to occur in your digital spaces either. That part. And I need us not to apologize for it. Yes. Right. Like don't apologize for having boundaries. I actually find it weird when people don't have boundaries.

26:08I'm always like, so you just let anybody call you? You just let anybody come into your house or you just let anybody like, so then what makes your relationship special? What actually lets the people who are in your circle, the people who are important to you know that they exist in a different sphere. If everybody has access, then nobody has access, right? Cause then there's nothing sacred. So I'm always like, I find it weird when people don't have boundaries. And I also just want to encourage people that like, when you are the person with the boundaries and people make you feel bad about it i hope this is confirmation that you're like no i'm not the one that's wrong here a few boundaryless person are the ones who should probably get get your stuff together i'm a capricorn we're very strong boundary people like all my friends who are capricorns we're all very similar we all have very strong boundaries that's like right here we do not cross a certain thing like people know we limit access to us like people don't have our number we're not the ones that share our numbers with random people like we will change our number in a hot second because we're like oh no people have it oh god no like i've already let people know if they give somebody my number they will end up end up probably getting blocked from accessing me it's that deep because you have to protect your space and in this world we're constantly thinking about other people's comfort over ours and it's not even it's not sainthood like we don't get sainthood by being like well as long as they're comfortable i'm fine No.