438 - Grace Bonney: Here's the Deal About Work Life Balance

0:28Has your to-do list got you trapped in gridlock? easy to use tool at marielovesyou.com slash stress log.

0:37Grace Bonney is the founder of Design Sponge, a daily website founded in 2004 that's dedicated to the creative community and reaches nearly 2 million readers per day. She runs an annual scholarship contest for up and coming designers and is the host of a weekly radio show after the jump. After 12 years in Brooklyn, Grace now lives in the Hudson Valley with her wife, Julia, and their three pets. Her new book, In the Company of Women, Inspiration and Advice from Over 100 Makers, Artists, and Entrepreneurs, is available now. Grace, thank you so much for coming back on the show. I'm so happy to be here.

1:12Thank you for having me. So you've been through a lot since our last conversation. Do you want to tell us about your journey and all the things that have happened since then? It's been a long – the last year has been a particularly long year. So in January of this year, in 2016, I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, which I didn't even know adults could get. So that was a big shocker. And it turned my life upside down. It turned my personal life upside down. It turned my work life upside down. And it was a sort of crash course in getting to know my body, changing every habit from the way I eat to my lack of exercise, which is now a total 180.

1:52And now that I look back on that moment, which was just so difficult to get through in January, I have such sort of perspective on what a gift that was because it has fundamentally changed the way I live and work. And I'm actually quite thankful for that now. And so let's dive into the granular bits of that because if anyone doesn't know of your site, know of your work, they now will. But you run one of the most popular design blogs in the world. So getting a diagnosis like this and having so many significant changes required pretty immediately had to have a big impact on, let's just talk about your work life for a moment.

2:30How did you start to decide what to either press pause on, what to delegate, and was there fear around, oh my goodness, is my business just going to crumble? Yes to everything. There was fear everywhere. My life from January to March was just fear after fear after fear. And to be quite honest, I didn't make decisions at first. I just fell into a really dark hole that involves a lot of like laying on the ground crying. And I was really fortunate that my team was kind of there to pick me up and say, hey, we can tell you're going through this. We're going to run things for a while. Take some time, you know, go to all your appointments, figure out what life looks like now.

3:11When you come back, we'll figure out what to do. And so I did. I took about a month and a half, not totally off of work, but mostly off of work, and to just kind of figure out what my day-to-day life was going to look like now. And there were a ton of doctor's appointments, a lot of going back and forth between our home upstate and to my doctors in the city and seeing specialists. And there just, there frankly wasn't time to work. It was just, it was, my health was my work for two months. And once that was settled, it really gave me no choice but to prioritize my health and to realize, okay, the way that I've worked for the last 12 years of sitting on a couch, totally sedentary, mostly in front of a television, working, you know, sometimes 10, 12-hour days, that can't happen anymore.

3:53It's just, it's not good for my health. I have to be up and moving, and I have to really have moments of calmness in my life because stress for type 1 or type 2 diabetes, but particularly for type 1, is really difficult on your numbers. And so I needed to make sure that my day was a bit more minimalized and streamlined. So I really learned to delegate, which is I'm sure you know, if you run your own show, it is so hard. Hardest thing in the world. It's to give your baby over to somebody else, even small parts of that, it's just so difficult. And for me, the majority of my day is really done communicating, whether it's with staff members or readers.

4:29And to give small aspects of that away to another person was so scary because I pride myself on the voice of the site, the tone of the site, and the way in which we communicate with people to be respectful, to be careful of them and their time. And that's really hard to train somebody else to do, but it's been done now and I'm so thankful. And I still interact with everybody and I still run all of our social channels, but I'm not the person who answers every email anymore. And it was a hard thing to let go of, but it gave me time in my day to just be quiet, to walk the dogs, to just have time to kind of be quiet and be centered.

5:04And those moments are so crucial for me now. So you guys are really, really active. I mean, I follow you on Instagram and I love it. You know, I love always seeing the stories and, you know, the posts. What are some of your other bigger social channels? And did you completely just go like hands off, stepping away? I did. Well, just for social? Yeah. I mean, actually, you can talk about anything, but I just – I'm so just innately curious Because again, you guys pump out incredible, high quality, beautiful, meaningful content so much. So I know for our business, you know, for me to kind of step out for a month or two, it makes my head want to explode.

5:42So I'm curious what your experience was, particularly with social, because that's how I know and follow you the most. It's interesting. I think that anytime I've gone through a big change in my life, and I've gone through a couple quite publicly over the last five or six years, and every time I sort of am ready to share that online, I have to kind of go through the process of understanding it myself, being ready for whatever feedback is going to come on the internet, which as you know, is all over the place. Yeah. And so I really have to kind of feel safe in my own understanding of how that works into my identity and who I am and what I do now.

6:14And so I felt with diabetes in particular that the sooner I was ready to talk about it, the better because I knew how few resources there were online, especially for people my age who were diagnosed, and I just wanted somebody else who understood. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to make this a part of our story very quickly because any time we've kind of made ourselves vulnerable, whether it's me or another team member discussing a health issue or a life change or losing a house, something like that, it really kind of draws us in closer to the readers. So we cut back on the amount of posts we did across the board from I think we were at five posts a day and now we post three times a day.

6:50And I was updating obsessively on social before that. And I really pulled back and was like, if I open Instagram today, cool. If not, no one's going to care. It's not that big of a deal. And it also was a good reminder that it's so easy. I think social media kind of props up your ego in this way of everything you post, someone says something about. So it can feel like all of that really is that important. And this was a good reminder for me to be like, you know, I love my dogs. Some other people love my dogs, but no one's going to be upset if I don't write anything on Instagram about them or anything else for a few weeks.

7:23So I backed off a bit, and it was a great lesson that nothing happened. It was fine. Life went on. No one was angry at me. When I did come back, people were – it seemed more excited to kind of check in because I had been gone for a bit. So I think that was a good reminder, and I've talked to a lot of other people in my community who've gone through big changes and disappeared for a little bit, and they've all echoed the same idea, which is those moments are so crucial to remembering that your audience loves you and wants to hear from you, but they are not going to sort of be so demanding and expectant of your time that if you do need to take time away, they're not going to be angry.

8:00They typically will be respectful. I think that's such an important part and it's such an important part of this conversation because a lot of folks that I know that are pretty consistent content creators and have taken a lot of time and energy to build an audience and that is part of their business model. That's part of how they put food on the table for their families. That's part of how their employees are able to take care of their livelihoods and their children and their pets and everything. There is such a fear. I think there's two pieces to it, right? There's the actual nuts and bolts. Is the business going to crumble?

8:34Is revenue going to stop coming in? So I want to talk about that in context of the internet's evolution since our last conversation. But also I think from a more emotional and spiritual and perhaps egoic place, feeling like you're going to be left behind or that everyone's going to depart and you're not going to matter anymore. That's a hard feeling. And I think it's one that if you work on the internet, you have every day. And I struggle with the idea of relevancy constantly. Like, is it important that I still have a voice on the internet? Is it important to talk about the same things that I used to talk about.

9:06And you can look online and find someone to convince you of either end of that spectrum, that you should be talking, that you shouldn't be talking. And so that's something that I've worked really hard just to tune out other people's voices this year and just really focus on the things that matter to me, what doesn't matter to me anymore. And that's a hard transition because for me, we've been transitioning Design Sponge in particular sort of away from the idea of design goods like furniture and products to the people behind those things and their stories and their struggles and their business life and their work life.

9:38And for me, that's where the fascinating story is. But that's not the case with all of our readers who would love to just see more shopping. And so that transition has been a scary one. But sort of everything I went through at the beginning of the year reminded me that it's okay to make these changes. And you might lose some people along the way, but you'll gain a different type of audience and a different level of engagement, which I've found so fulfilling. Let's talk now about our last conversation. One of the things I thought was so fun because you and I, I feel like we're like OGs when it comes to the internet.

10:09We've been around it for a long time. We've been working online for a long time. I know Design Sponge started in 2004 and it's just... We've seen so many evolutions and it feels like two years since our last conversation, one of the things that you shared with me that I was so grateful for your transparency because we'll have a lot of folks in our audience who are like, I just want to start a blog. And I love that. And I admire that and I'm always excited for people to express their creativity. And if they want to start aiming it into a business, you know, it starts to become another conversation about what is the revenue model and, you know, how is this really going to become self-sustaining.

10:43And you were sharing that at that time in 2014, advertising revenues, you were seeing a downward trend both for your own business and also just in terms of the entire landscape of friends and people that you know. I'm curious where you see things now, whether it is in terms of advertising or other kind of trends in digital marketing from your point of view. It's funny. Things have completely changed again just in the last two years, which is just so... It's difficult to process because just as you get your footing, there's a new expectation or a sort of new shift in the ad market that favors something that you had just sort of unlearned or have to relearn.

11:24So for us, I think we've seen the same trend progress, which is scary but exciting. I think in general, blog traffic to just your home-based blog, it continues to kind of slowly shift to other places. And we see our social traffic increasing very quickly, which is exciting. But that's not where we sell most of our ads. So it's a challenge. It's really scary to sort of have our audience grow in these really interesting places. And they're very different audiences. And each, you know, our Instagram community is very different from the commenters on the site. And the same thing with Twitter and Facebook.

11:57And so you have these communities of people and you want to engage them. But you have an ad market that keeps saying, well, unless you put an actual product in your post, we're not going to pay you. And that's the challenge we're facing right now because as a brand, we really want to be careful about how often we kind of just put products in people's faces. Absolutely. And I don't have an answer for that. I wish I did. I wish I knew the correct way to do that and the right amount of that to put in. So it's been kind of trial and error for us to see what feels real, which feels like too much for our readers and what feels like just enough.

12:31So we're testing it out. And then I think like always, I like having outside projects going because I think if the internet's taught me anything in the last two years, it's that you just cannot put all your eggs in one basket. And definitely not the blog basket. It's got to be another basket. So whether it's, you know, podcasting or books or event series, all these things to kind of have all these irons in the fire, whether or not they all work out, it doesn't really matter. It's kind of about constantly stretching and seeing which of these things sort of resonate. I think there is too. There's a place where we can go, right?

13:03And we see this in our own business as well. It's like I'm watching stuff start to whittle and die in certain areas and I'm watching other things start to grow. And it really requires a sense of courage to try new things and it's such an iterative process. And sometimes I find myself slightly frustrated when I feel like this is the formula you need to follow. I'm like, dude, there is no friggin' formula. Shit changes way too fast. It's gonna continue changing and evolving. And especially when it comes to digital marketing, every single platform has so many layers of complexity and there's so much detail.

13:36Like, how do you put up a Facebook ad? And I'm like, dude, Facebook ads, the level of targeting, the level of remarketing. You could have a whole department just for that. Absolutely. And so I'm curious if you have had conversations with folks who are just wanting to start their own business and have an online component and how you have either advised them or anything that you've told them about this world is very different than when you and I started and it was a lot simpler. Absolutely. It's funny. I used to tell people, like, find your voice. Find out what makes your voice different and things like that.

14:09And at this point, I feel like that advice doesn't really apply in the same way anymore. I feel like now I'm encouraging people to find what they have fun doing. Because for me, what separates a great podcast or a great YouTube show or a great anything from the other competition is somebody who you can tell is enjoying what they're doing. And I think so many people are sort of coming up in this era of new sort of platforms, whether it's social or a website. And they come out as these fully formed brands right away. which is great if that's natural to who you are. But I think sometimes I want to see like, where's the spontaneity?

14:43Where's the moment where maybe it didn't go exactly as planned, but it's still really fun. And I look for those moments of just sort of, I don't know, like relatability. Is that a word? I look for those moments. Sweet. It's a word at least to me. Yeah. And so I look for those moments. And I think that a lot of times when you're new, no one wants to look like an amateur, but I actually love that. I want someone that feels fresh and different and new and isn't perfectly shiny all of a sudden. I want to watch them evolve. And I love that evolution. So I think rather than spending all of this time trying to get the perfect logo, the perfect launch to your channel or whatever it is, figure out what's fun to you and do more of that.

15:22Because no matter how much you love your job, that old expression of if you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life. It's bullshit. Exactly. Totally. There will be days where you have to pay bills and taxes and do... You want to stick a fork in your eye. I have so many days. I mean, not literally, but you know, like everyone, I want to pull all of my hair out, like one by one. It's too pretty. Yeah, no. And yes, it's real. I know. I mean, you have no, this, that's like one of our running jokes. It's like, Marie, your extensions look so good today. I'm like, no. It's mine. I saw it.

15:53It's real. It is real. But yeah, no, I think back to the kind of core question, it is, I think also it's natural for people to want things to look polished and to have them look so professional out of the gate. But what we really crave is that genuine connection to a human. Well, if you look at the types of videos that take off and viral videos, they're always real people. They're real people doing something that's funny, that's relatable. And it doesn't mean you have to be a comedian or accidentally trip over things all the time. Whatever that thing is that you enjoy doing, just film it without limits.

16:26Just think about it, record it, write it, whatever it is and put it out there and have fun with it. Because the longer standing something becomes, you get involved in the aspects of your business that aren't as fun. And so the more of it that you can do upfront that's just enjoyable, that's where great ideas come from. I find that very little creativity and sort of idea building comes from the planning stage of something. It's just not where you kind of let your brain roam and have great ideas. So the more you can really kind of just have fun with it and learn and make mistakes, that's where magic happens.

16:56We were talking off camera. Like I was saying, you know, we shot the day before and I was having a particularly stressful few couple weeks that were rough, just a variety of issues. You know, like any business owner, they can all start to stack up. And, you know, it was time we were writing MarieTV and I was just at that point where I felt like I couldn't write anymore. So the dumbest, silliest jokes were coming out, which we shot yesterday. I was like, oh my God, we haven't had this much fun doing these many silly things with like medieval costumes and people wrapped in like crazy stuff. So it was one of the best days we've had in a long while and it all came from not trying to do anything too perfectly, like throwing it on the page and then letting it go.

17:33And those will be the moments that people respond to the most strongly. And I find that I do my best writing when I do have some strong emotion, whether it's anger or sadness or fear or just wanting to laugh and share something that's funny. Those are the moments that maybe you're not going to sell the most ads on that post, but those are the moments that will keep your readers coming back. And I think every business needs to kind of let those moments shine through because that's when your customer or your client or your reader really gets to know you a little bit better. Yes. And that's what we're all here for is we want to support people's businesses, but I want to know the people and the stories behind those businesses too.

18:07So let's move on to this book, which is, by the way, just absolutely gorgeous. Thank you. You guys, in the company of women. I've been having so much fun reading everyone's stories. So this particular book did not start out as this particular book. You were set to write another DIY crafting book and then you went, record scratch. Let's turn this beat around. Tell us why did that happen? What happened? What was that process like? That was one of the scariest moments of the last 12 years of my business because I had a contract. I had received money. I agreed to write a DIY encyclopedia that was supposed to be this mammoth sort of testament to, you know, glue and doing things with your own two hands.

18:48And I did that thing where I just dragged my feet and I dragged my feet. And I've gotten better at identifying that's a sign that something's wrong. But I just kept saying, I signed a contract. You can't go back on a contract. What would that say about me? What would that do to my business? You were a horrible person. Yes. Oh, I just totally fell down that shame hole. And I had this moment of just, I don't want to put my name on something that I don't believe in. Yes. And that can be a very idealistic thought to have. And it can't always be one that you can actually act on because sometimes you're financially just not able to go backwards.

19:22And so I met with my accountant and I said, would it be possible for me to give this advance back? What would happen to my business? And we figured out that it would be feasible. Wouldn't be great, but it would be feasible. And I just had the realization that I cared more about not putting something out into the world that I felt half-hearted about. So I was talking with my wife, Julia, about it. And she said, is there any other idea that you have that you might want to pursue? And I had wanted to write a business book for years. But now that we have all of these great business books for women that are out in the last like two or three years, that's something people are recognizing is important.

19:58But when I was pitching this three or four years ago, it wasn't really happening. And people were like, I don't know, business books for women. Like, they're already business books. But I felt like there was something different that needed to be said. So I sat down. I wrote this pitch. Juliet helped me make a one page. I sent it off to my publisher and I said, I'm sorry. I can't fulfill this contract. My heart's not in it. I am prepared to give you my advance back and just completely apologize for making this mistake. But here's this other idea. And if you're into it, I would love to talk. And I sent the email, slammed my laptop shut and like hid.

20:34And just thought, because it was this moment of, this is something I really want. I want this so badly, bad enough to fall flat on my face and have to give a ton of money back and just realize what a mistake I had made. And I ended up lucking out. And my publisher was excited about the idea. She loved it. And then she said, well, you can do this, but you have two months, which is my original deadline. So in the course of two months, we interviewed over 100 women. We traveled across the country. And I was lucky enough to find a photographer, Sasha Israel, who was like, I'm up for this. Let's do it.

21:06Book the flights. Let's go. And so we traveled across the country with Kelly, who manages the team at Design Sponge, who kind of project managed the entire book. And the three of us just had the greatest summer ever, just meeting these incredible women who I never thought I would have a chance to talk to. And then taking everything they said and compiling it into a book that I think hopefully will relate to women everywhere, at every age and every stage in their career. And that was really important to me because I think so many business books are about people people who are, you know, fortune companies and they're doing so well and they're getting tons of press.

21:41But I think there's a lot to learn from people who are only a few years into their business too because they remember what that early stage was like. Yes, they're closer into it. Yeah. And they can speak usually more articulately about some of the very specific challenges and fears and doubts and how they were able to bridge over to getting traction and keeping it going. Absolutely. I love it. I love the diversity of every kind that is represented in this book. I think you did a brilliant job. Thank you. You did this in two months. You guys… I mean, I know it's a lot more than two months. Yeah.

22:11But the kind of core creation of it. Absolutely. It was two months of interviewing. We traveled as many places as possible. I mean, some women were in like Nigeria, some were in Seattle. And so that wasn't gonna happen. But I traveled to as much within the continental United States as possible and met these people. Some people we met with for 20 minutes. Some people we spent a day talking to. And it really kind of just depended on where the conversation went. And the questions were set up to encourage transparency, honesty about things not working out. And my caveat was just I need this person to be open to discussing the things that were failures.

22:46Because I think failure is a word that has such a negative connotation. But for me, those are the real opportunities to learn. Because I so rarely learn anything huge and life-changing from things that do work out. I learn so much more from things that don't work out. And maybe that's just like my way of making the best of the fact that I make a lot of mistakes. But I really enjoy learning from the mistakes that I've made and that other people have made. Absolutely. And all these women were so wonderfully honest about these moments. And not just that they've made them, but that they continue to make them 20, 30, 40 years into their career.