459 - Brené Brown On How To Be Your Most Brave & Courageous Self

0:00Hey, it's Marie and I am heading to London this fall and I would love to see you there. So on Thursday, November 13th, me and my man, Josh Pice, are headlining a live event all about unlocking your creative power and becoming unstoppable. It's awesome. It's called Lose Your Mind, The Path to Creative Invincibility. Go to MarieForleo.com slash London and grab your tickets now. That's MarieForleo.com slash London. And I cannot wait to see you in person. For anyone who is looking to make a difference and make a positive impact in this world, this is one of the things in the room that we're not talking about, this fear and the shame of being irrelevant because things are moving so fast.

0:40I'm curious to hear more of your take on this. I think it's one of the biggest shame triggers at work that we face. And I've got to tell you that comparison is the devil here. Yes. Like whether you've got your own side hustle and you're trying to do something or you're you're in a really steady job that you're trying to climb up the ladder, whatever it is. Wow. We just, we just spend so much time and energy checking the other lanes. Yes. You know, and there's nothing that kills you in a race like looking over and checking lanes. And I think, you know, that's interesting because going back to the armored leadership versus daring leadership, one of the comparisons of the two and how they show up is one is hustling for your worth.

1:32Yes. And the other is knowing and daring leadership is knowing your value. And when I say knowing your value, I don't mean like looking in the mirror and saying, I value you and I love you and you're awesome, Brene. Let's go kick some ass. I mean, if you do that, that's rock on. That's great. What I'm talking about is a sit down with the people, with your supervisor, with whoever you work with, with your, the people, the family members that lent you 10 grand to start your Etsy business, whoever that you trust, sit down and say, help me, help me explore and name the value I bring. Help me know what it is that I do uniquely well.

2:09Tell me what it is that you think the strengths that I bring, like we have to understand our value because for one thing, it's, it's, it's really hard for shame. Shame will pick somebody else, um, to pick, you know, they'll pick, they'll pick on someone else. They don't choose the people who are very clear with their value because it's, it's harder to stick to us sometimes. And so I think I know my value, like I know what it is and I know what it isn't. So I know that, you know, the budget work and doing pro formas and pro, you know, projecting things is not my strength. So I have a CFO that's amazing at doing that.

2:47What I know is my strength is, and it's really weird and it's tied to my purpose, um, is I'm really good at seeing connections between things that most people don't see and then wrapping language around it in a way that makes it accessible and makes people feel less alone. Like I know that's my, that's my thing. Absolutely. And so, yeah. So when I come out of a week where I've done none of that work and all I've done is stared at spreadsheets, which I'm not good at things like that. I'm just not. Unless someone, you know, my CFO is really good with me because he wraps a narrative and he tells me a story about the numbers, which I'm like, I tell him that makes sense to me.

3:27But when we don't know our value and there are changes at work or there's a turmoil or whatever, we're the first to go. And then we start hustling. Then we start, I don't know my value. I don't know if I'm relevant. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me over here. I've got the answers to everything. I'm the best. And then we go into comparison and then it's just a shit show from that point forward. Totally. I think you hit on something that I really want to go back to because I think it's huge. I felt it in my heart when you said it and I recognized it in myself is, you know, sometimes, Sometimes we have a program named B-School, right?

4:05And where I work with people every year and I have so much fun. And one of the things that I often do is I just go live. Like in that particular case, it's been in our Facebook group where I just pop up, I throw on. And that's actually really fun for me because I just do it in my kitchen or where the hell I am. I'm just like, yeah, all right, let's do this, guys. Let's throw down. Let's talk. What are your questions? What's happening? and I am so alive when I get to work with people, when I'm dealing with them one-on-one and I have started to recognize in myself if I don't have enough of that, when I am not flexing my strengths, like when you were saying, right?

4:41If I haven't done this kind of seeing the patterns and wrapping language around and making it accessible for people and helping them feel like they're not alone, if you haven't flexed those muscles enough, that's almost when we pull out of our strengths and then all of a sudden we start looking around to the left and to the right, comparison hits in. And I call it compare Schlager. I feel like it's, do you remember, you may not remember this, but maybe for me, it was like Goldschlager. It was like that terrible liqueur way, way back in the day. Oh, yeah. Oh, with the gold flakes. And it's like, once you do a few shots of that, you're down for days, if not weeks, you it's really hard.

5:15So I do want to underscore for anyone listening, if you're thinking like, Oh, God, yes, comparison is one of my habits, Brene gave you a huge, huge hint. The more that you understand and know your strengths, what value you bring, and you make sure you're practicing that, exercising that, flexing that, serving through that, the less space and time we kind of pull back and go into that comparison zone. I love it. One of the things that made me really proud as a leader, because it's something I work on a lot, was getting some 360 feedback about my own leadership, which was hard because not everything was great.

5:49It was, it was a pretty mixed bag. But one thing that I was proud of is that everyone reported to me could almost recite, recite verbatim what they thought their value was in the conversation that we had about their value. That's awesome. Yeah, because, and it's, it's, you know, I think one of the most dangerous things I've seen, even in my own leadership and then working with other leaders is when we're leading a team, let's just stick with value for a second. Cause there's two types, there's value, like what value do you bring and what are your values? And so I've, we've done this work everywhere from the Gates foundation to shell oil across the board.

6:35And it has changed teams. It's this one, make sure the people who work with you, and especially if they, if you, if they report to you, make sure they understand their value, have a, an explicit conversation about it. Then I don't think you can really know people unless you understand their values, not the value they bring, but what they, what the ideas and beliefs they hold most precious. And so one of the exercises we do, and it's, it's so great is we just get a large post-it poster and we hang it up and everyone writes down their two values. Um, so minor faith and courage. and then we spend, we leave them up for a week.

7:15And then over the course of the week, everyone on our team puts a sticky note up for that person kind of anonymously about how their behaviors really show those values and what they appreciate about those values in that person. And when you're sitting with a team during a hard as shit rumble because there's been a failure or we've made a consumer facing mistake or something's happening and you're sitting across from someone and you're pissed and you feel blamey, but you know that their values are connection and learning. You know how to lean into the conversation with them. You know what's going to hurt.

7:52You know what they can hear and what's really hard to hear when things are tough. So we're just not having enough of these conversations about the value we bring and the value we stand for. I'm so excited about this because you just gave me a perfect idea. And I was just thinking it's going to be fun for us to do because, you know, we have a virtual company, our entire team is distributed. So there's about 30 of us. And, you know, we do very, very well. We get together and periodically, like we went on vacation together in Mexico, I think it was a year and a half or two years ago. But this is going to be fun for us to do because we love it.

8:29And we love each other. And thank you for highlighting that because we're not talking about those things enough. You know, in my personal life, love languages, you know, one of the simple tools that has made a huge difference in my relationship with Josh and even frankly on our team. We use love languages on our team so that we understand each other and we can therefore offer appreciation and love to one another in a way that's going to be well received. So this value conversation is just top notch. I also want to talk about empathy. You write, in those bad moments. It's not our job to make things better.

9:05It's just not. Our job is to connect. It's to take the perspective of someone else. Empathy is not connecting to an experience. It's connecting to the emotions that underpin an experience. Empathy isn't about fixing. It's the brave choice to be with someone in their darkness. Let's talk about this distinction because I think it's really important to get the nuance here between empathy and sympathy. Yeah. So I think one of the issues every now and then, I mean, we're in the middle of this right now, every now and then social scientists will find a word that we've all come to understand, accept, and feel encouraged by, and they'll go under attack around it.

9:46So a couple of years ago, people took on authenticity. Now there's a couple of people taking on empathy and saying, no, empathy is not the answer. It's too exhausting. It's too hard. We just need to be compassionate. Well, I call bullshit, to be honest with you, because as someone who studied empathy for 20 years and have studied compassion, they're different things. And so the deal with empathy is this. If you call me and say, I'm going to make up something. hey it's me and um josh and i just had a really big argument and i don't know well i can't use as example because i would relate to that personally but if you think here's the thing as a social worker i've heard stories about i mean and as a researcher i've heard about your sexual assault, the death of a child.

10:46I've heard everything you can imagine from people. And I have a great capacity for empathy in those things, not because I've had those experiences. It has nothing to do with having those experiences. It's the fact that I understand some of the emotion underneath those experiences and can connect with it. You know, I always give people, we'll give people a test, Marie, right now who are listening. We're going to give you an empathy capacity test. Number one, have you ever felt grief? Yes. Anger. Yes. Joy. Resentment. Contempt. Okay. You pass. Because I can say to someone, no, I don't. I've never had that experience, but I can hear you and hold space for you and be with you because I do know rage and I do know grief and I do know sorrow.

11:39I do know longing. for something that doesn't exist anymore. I do know those things. Let me just, let me just say this, because this is where people get tricked. This is tricky. Yeah. Empathic failure is more likely to happen sometimes with people who've had the exact experience, because even if I've had the exact experience, even if I've been fired in front of my colleagues, that doesn't mean it was the same for me. So empathy is about connecting with an emotion that someone is experiencing and conveying back our understanding of that emotion. I feel that with you. I understand. I don't understand.

12:19It's not that I went through it, but I understand what this feels like and I can hold space for it. Sympathy is, you know what, that never really happened to me. So I don't, I feel sorry for you. I'm sad for you. it's feeling for someone not with them i can even you know it's funny you're you're well you know obviously we're having a discussion right now and you're role-playing you're demonstrating for us just a few words but even listening to you even though this is all made up i can feel the difference i can feel the difference just with those two statements sometimes when hard things happen folks are afraid to say the wrong thing to a friend or colleague right they just they don't know if they should call, should they email, should they text?

13:02And one of the things I underlined that you wrote was a quote. You says, I don't even know what to say right now. I'm just so glad you told me. Something so simple, something so just easy to communicate. I just wanted to thank you for even giving language to that because we've heard from people, I know I've experienced this in my own life, when something horrendous happens and you can freeze up because you don't want to make a mistake or say the wrong thing, perfectionism rising its head again. So how can we, tell us more about vulnerability. And I want to move on to also, and take this however you want, like wherever we want to go, making the distinction between vulnerability and oversharing, discerning what's appropriate and healthy and what's not.

13:46Okay. So great question. So let me tell you that courage is teachable. It's a collection of four skill sets that are 100 % teachable, measurable, and observable. We can learn to be braver. We can teach others to do it. We've done it in now 50 organizations with over 10 ,000 people. You can learn to be brave and braver. So when we looked into, okay, what are these skill sets that, you know, what does courage look like? What is, what is, how does it show up? What we realized is out of the four skill sets, vulnerability is the foundational skill, the capacity to rumble with vulnerability. So vulnerability is the emotion that we experience when we feel uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed.

14:38When we put up that honest blog post, when we have to have a hard conversation like we just modeled, when we have to ask for feedback, when we get feedback, whether we ask for it or not, when we have to give feedback, when things are messy in the middle, and we just want a quick fix because we don't like staying in the uncertainty. Your capacity for courage, our capacity for courage as leaders will never be greater than our capacity and our ability to rumble with vulnerability. Who are you when you're awash in that emotion of uncertainty and risk and emotional exposure? So I'll give you, I'll give y 'all an an indicator.

15:19It's four skill sets. Vulnerability is so, so just, let's go back to the role play that you just fricking nailed again. I promise y 'all we didn't actually role play the role play. She just nailed it like a mother.

15:35Do you, if you are working with a partner and a collaborator and everything they're giving you has just, you feel like it's just gone to hell and you have to have that hard conversation. You know, a daring leader talks to people, talks to those people directly. Yes. Armored leader talks about those people to other people. Like that's not brave. So vulnerability is that phone call is having to pick up the phone or get on Skype or zoom or Slack or whatever you're using and say, something's not working. That's a moment of vulnerability, you know, and people always, you know, I just did an interview for Inc magazine and they said, how much, if you want to be a daring leader, how much personal stuff should you share with people?

16:20And I'm like, when I get asked that question, I know you don't understand what I'm talking about. Because I have interviewed daring leaders who share very little and are incredibly vulnerable, but they disclose very little personally. And then I've worked with leaders who disclose everything and they're not vulnerable at all. It's not about how much you share. It's about can you stay in the discomfort? Can you embrace the suck? And so for me, you know, you, you, you mentioned having to let somebody go. Yes. I mean, how many of you listening have stayed in a working relationship, any kind of relationship way too long because you're afraid of the discomfort of having the brave or hard conversation.

17:15It's something, Brene, that we've learned in our company. You know, when we discover that someone is not the right fit, we strive to move as quickly as possible because we feel like it is the most loving thing to do. For sure. And it's never easy. And I know the last time that I did it, it was not long ago and it was very, very difficult. there were tears and it really took everything in me to stay open and to keep my heart open and to hear and to listen and to let this person know about their value and their gifts and that the truth was for me that I wanted them to keep going. It was just became clear that we weren't the right environment to have them ultimately thrive to their fullest potential, right?

18:05There wasn't that match. And even though it was difficult, it was like now that person has an opportunity to take their gifts and to have them fly in an environment where it is the right fit. I want to talk about rumble starters and shitty first drafts, if we may, from the learning to rise section. Yeah. The one on page 172 that you said by far is the most powerful rumble starter in the free world. You said it's changed every facet of your life. What is it? And how can it help us stay on the path to braver leadership? Oh, by the way, before you answer that, I just have to say I made a little note.

18:41I feel like you know how my my book is everything is figureoutable. When you're talking about courage, I was like courage is figureoutable. I wrote it down on my little notepad because it is it's like that's a for anyone listening. It's like courage is figureoutable. Brene has the steps. She has the skills. She has what you can practice. And it's all in dare to lead. Okay. Back to rumble starters. It is so figure. I thought I have thought about you so many times because sometimes my team will say to me, you know, your problem and your gift is you believe that everything can be figured out. And I'm like, I just, you know, Marie Forleo'd your ass right now.

19:17Yeah. I think it is. I was just reading Neil deGrasse Tyson's like a book about astrophysics. Yeah. He has this great quote that I highlighted. I'm like, oh, that's going in my book, he's like, we are a part of the universe. I'm going to mangle this quote, you guys. So please, I'll have to because I haven't memorized yet. But it's like we are a part of the universe and inherent in it. And that is our ability to figure it all out. And I was like, yes. So I'm with you, Brene, even if even if people think even if they do think it's our Achilles heel, I'm fine with it. I will retain my position as an optimist.

19:48And and I love the spirit of adventure that again, like courage and bravery that we can figure it out that it is learnable, that we can dig in and do the hard work and become who we're meant to be. Okay. On to rumble starters. Okay. So the number one rumble starter and like, if you, if you just came into our office as a fly on the wall, you would hear all of us say it, I bet 10 times a day. And it's the story I'm making up because when hard things happen, you know, neurobiologically, the brain wants a story because the brain's job is to protect us. It senses that we're anxious or fearful or feel vulnerable.

20:27And the brain's like, give me a story, help me understand what's going on. What, you know, so I can protect you. Who are the bad guys here? Who are the good guys? And let me tell you, we make up the story. How many of you've ever gotten conflict, you know, at work or at home or with a parent or a partner and walked out of the room with this entire story made up about what's happening? Because here's the thing, you make up a story with bad guys and good guys, you put yourself in kind of a, they're out to get you place. You're the brain loves a story with bad guys and dangerous things. And in fact, if you give it a really good one, it'll reward you chemically.

21:00The brain is not interested in a, I'm not sure what happened that meeting. Something felt off. I could have had a part. The brain's like, that's a bullshit story. Who's the enemy. And the more we give that the brain, what they want, the more the brain rewards And so men and women with the highest levels of resilience who we've interviewed over the past decades use this sentence, the story I'm telling myself. And then someone might come back and say, that story's not true. I sat with this for two days trying to figure it out. This was my idea because I thought it was the best way. And here's why.

21:38it's such an open-hearted honest vulnerable way to say we got to rumble about something hard and let me be brave and upfront about the stories I'm coming to the table with I love it I'm so excited to use this I'm going to use it I can promise you our team is going to adopt this it's brilliant and you know Josh and I actually do this quite a bit and it really works magic again. I feel like so much of what we do in our personal lives can be translated, frankly, to the workplace. I'm curious about the time that we're in right now, right, which is obviously challenging externally, very divisive politically.

22:23What about your experience being a brave leader? This is a question that we get a lot, Renee. You know, if I know this has happened for you, It's actually just happened for me recently where people want to kind of shout me down, tell me to sit down and be quiet. You're only supposed to motivate me. You're only supposed to talk to me about, you know, this narrow little array of topics. And should I express an opinion or a belief in anything otherwise? All hell fucking breaks loose, right? I'm curious if you have anything to share because some of my folks have been like, oh, my goodness, Marie, thank you for saying something.

23:00You actually just gave me courage to say something. How does the fear of public shaming play into someone who's listening, right? Who wants to be more brave and open hearted as a leader? I'm still like, I am still in recovery mode from, I posted a picture of Anita Hill and Professor Ford and said, I think courage is contagious and this is what vulnerability looks like. and thousands of people unfollowed. And it was my most circulated, shared and liked post in my history on social media. So that just points to the absolute divisiveness. I mean, like it is, it is, it's a war zone. I mean, our brain, literally, we feel social pain in the exact same way we feel physical pain.

23:56Same part of the brain, same part of everything. I mean, it, it is real. And I have to say like before, before I usually go out with something like that, Steve and I will have a conversation, my husband, um, because it will, it affects me. Um, it doesn't affect me to be honest with you. I don't give a shit if you unfollow me. I have to be really honest. My

24:26job is to be myself and I don't owe you anything. And I, you know, follow me, don't follow me. It doesn't, it doesn't matter to me because if a condition of you following me is to stay quiet on things I believe in, you're following the wrong person. That's right. But the shout outs, there's just the, not the shout outs, the shout downs, the, how many people said what hurt me? I think the most with how many people said, you know, one person very said, you're a spiritual columnist. Your work has changed my life. Why are you, why are you waiting into politics? And it just, I'm like, did you read my books?

25:17Have you, you know, like, yeah, how, how did I change your life without you seeing me? Yes. I'm so happy we're talking about this. Cause I, as well, I had posted a, uh, uh, just an image of Dr. Ford just saying, I believe you because that is the truth. That's how I felt. And similarly, first of all, I think it's interesting that you talk with Steve about it. I actually did not talk with Josh before I posted. And I did a lot of commenting, frankly, when I was buying shoes. I don't shop very often, but I needed to give, Josh was working on a role and I needed to give him some space. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go shoe shopping because I'm gonna go see JLo.

25:58And that's when everything kind of went down. And I was like, wow, similarly, people like, that's it. I'm unfollowing you. I'm like, how did you not know who I, how did you've been following me and not really get who I am? It's so, it's fascinating. So I just, I know that this conversation is going to be extremely valuable for our listeners because a lot of folks, frankly, they don't get to hear someone like you talk about this side of it very often. So I just want to thank you for being transparent because it's, It's not easy. And I also... It hurts. Yeah. It's real. And the reason I have to talk to Steve about it is the bandwidth it takes for me sometimes to not go under is tremendous.

26:47And I've been sick. I'm just not getting over being sick for like two weeks. And I thought they thought that I had mono, then strep throat. And now they realize I have a sinus infection, but I've just felt like just terrible. And I'm not a good sick person. And so all this on top of it, and it's like, and it's not that I go under. It's like, it's like when I drive on the freeway, it's like, if I keep going straight on 59 and someone pulls off on 610, cause they're headed a different way. No one's leaning out of their fucking car screaming. I'm not following you anymore. They're just turning off like, good.