461 - This Idea Will Save the World — Kate Raworth on "Doughnut Economics"

0:00Take us back to the early days of your career. What actually inspired you to become an economist in the first place? Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a 50-year-old woman in the UK. And so I was a teenager of the 1980s. I remember, well, I was dancing to Duran Duran in the early days of Madonna. I remember a famine in Ethiopia. I remember a hole opening up in the ozone layer. I remember the Exxon Valdez ship spilling oil into Alaska's waters. And so as a teenager, I had that open sense of, I want to help tackle these issues. And I thought that learning economics would give me this mother tongue of public policy.

0:43I thought it would equip me with the tools I needed to help do something about this. so off I went to university and I studied economics and I was just so frustrated by what I learned because it just didn't touch on so many of these issues they were peripheral to what we were studying you couldn't even study environmental economics in those days even though it's become such a crucial crisis in the world so then I walked away from economics I was actually embarrassed ever by the idea of saying hello I'm an economist you know I don't I don't want to be that label So I walked away from it. I worked for the UN for some years.

1:17I worked for Oxfam for many years. And then actually during the global financial crisis, I had tiny babies in arms. I had twin babies right around then. And I remember hearing economists say, oh, it's time to rewrite the economics to reflect the financial crisis and financial realities. And I just thought, you know, if we're going to rewrite economics, can't we rewrite it to reflect all of the crises and all of the realities, the social crises that go on internationally and within countries, people living in really tough circumstances of deprivation and the ecological crisis of climate breakdown of our footprint on the planet.

1:56it. So that brought me back towards economics that I wanted to come back and flip it on its head. And what if we start economics not with supply and demand and the equations that they teach that scare a lot of people and make a lot of people think this isn't for me. What if we start with something that everybody understands? Human needs are essential needs and protecting the life support systems of our planetary home. And if we put them at the center of our vision, what kind of economics would we create then? And that became a really exciting question that turned into the book Donate Economics.

2:29And I've just been riding with that journey ever since. So I'm curious, did you have other folks in your cohort, other folks that you knew, whether it was from the UN or Oxfam or even from your university days that were equally as dismayed and confused and disillusioned by what was being taught classically and what the reality was in the world? Were there other people who were as dissatisfied as you or did you kind of feel like a lone wolf for a bit? I think there's a lot of people in the world who are dissatisfied, but they leave economics alone. It's quite abstract. It's quite intimidating. You know, when I was writing the book and I was a mom at the school gates picking up my kids and people would say, you know, what do you do?

3:11And I said, well, I'm writing a book on rethinking economics. And the first thing people do is they draw back and they say, I was never very good at math at school and I would say, look, the only numbers in this book are the page numbers. We can all do this. And by sticking the word donut in front of economics, no one's frightened of donuts. You might love them or hate them, but you're not scared of them. So it's made it much more accessible to people. But yes, I feel like I've spent my career actually at the UN, at Oxfam, surrounded by people who are working in community development, in local agriculture, in health and education.

3:48and actually deeply frustrated by the very narrow set of ideas that gets called economics. And I think all of that work and experience and people's experience in their communities, this is all what we should put at the heart of reimagining our economies in a much more bigger, open, embracing way of the unpaid work that many of us do as mums, the unpaid work of caring and the paid work and the community work. These all contribute to a thriving economy. and let's make economics recognize all of that. So I'm curious, when did you become clear that there was a problem with growth, putting little bunny ears around it, and how we think about it?

4:32I mean, I think most of us, including myself, right, we're all taught to believe that when it comes to our economies and money and GDP, that growth is always a good thing. And growth is supposed to mean progress, but you have a very different point of view. Yeah. And it was the moment I came clear on that was when the moment I tried to question it and it was I was in my 30s. I tried to ask, must an economy grow indefinitely? Could it? What if it can't? And I realized that I was suddenly almost standing at a cliff edge. This was a very terrifying place to stand. It was a very lonely place to stand.

5:10Very few economists were there with you. Many of them thought you were really way too radical and you'd gone over the edge. and I found that fascinating in itself but also I realized I had never in all my education been invited to ask this question it had just never come up and that was a real curiosity to me and then I started to think about the power of the appeal of growth right growth growth is a wonderful healthy phase of life my kids are now 12 years old they're growing very fast we love to see our plants grow our gardens grow so no wonder it's it appeals to us and actually I've got a lovely piece of hose pipe here I never travel without a hose pipe this is this is the shape of growth that we're told should be the shape of our economies growing endlessly national income rising year on year on year on year no matter how rich a country already is its national income should rise indefinitely.

6:07That I found bizarre as well. So no matter how rich we become, we always need more growth to solve our problems. And just to bring it close to our own lives, even though growth seems like a wonderful phase of life, I can take us to a very different perspective on it. So if I said to you, my friend went to the doctor and the doctor told her she had a growth, that suddenly feels very, very different. And we go quiet because we know that within our own bodies, which are complex living systems, something that tries to grow endlessly within our bodies, we call that a cancer and we move in and do everything we can to stop it and to restore health.

6:47So growth is a wonderful, healthy phase of life, but nothing in nature that thrives does it by growing forever. It needs to grow up and mature. Now, that makes sense in our bodies. It makes sense in our families. If my kids grew two inches every year, they would literally no longer belong in my household. Think of anything you love and imagine what would happen if it grew indefinitely. I'm going to guess it would almost necessarily be destroyed. So things need to belong within other parts of our lives. Now, when we take that very life-based, earth-based perspective on growth, if we then bring that into economics, economics it's a completely alien way of thinking about it because economists have just become used to only looking at the first half of that idea growth is good growth is good and so it initially seemed like a very very radical and dangerous place to stand you're really going to say you're not for endless growth what i've really seen over the last 10 even just five years is more and more people within economics and definitely without it outside of economics questioning that and saying well, that doesn't make sense to me.

7:57I mean, of course, things need to grow and grow up. How could you have endless growth on a delicately balanced living planet? So the question is almost being reversed. And the expectation now goes to economists, explain to us how you think our economy could grow endlessly if this planet is going to thrive. So it's turning into a much more interesting debate. This is where I got so excited too, because when I first saw the imagery of basically the hockey puck, right? Which we've all seen a million times. And it's like, where does that end? And through your TED Talk and through the book, you introduced us to this idea of a circle and a donut.

8:35I mean, I was like, gosh, there's so many symbols in our world where we think about something as being whole and interconnected. And we think about circles as organic and life-giving. It was just like, for me, there was also, there's a lot of other symbolism in there too that may or may not be intended, but I'm like, I don't want to take this to this place. But I had the momentary thought. I'm like, wow, one is somewhat of a masculine thing. And there is, yep. And there was also this kind of feminine expression, you know, and there's everything in between. But I was like, there is so many, there are so many layers to this that are fascinating to me.

9:14I think one of the things that I also loved that I grew to understand from your work was unpacking the very nature of the word economics. You had shared that when we go back to its ancient Greek roots, economics means the art of household management. Can you speak a little bit into how that understanding can help us begin to rethink what economic success even means? Yeah. So I love that you bring this up. So normally, if you say to somebody, what does economics mean? They'll say, growth, interest rates, jobs. But actually, when we go back to that ancient Greek root, it comes from two words, eikos and nomos.

9:51It means the art of household management. How should we best manage our households? Now, it began actually at the level of an individual household. The first text called The Economist was written literally, how should, back 2000 years ago in ancient Greece, how should a man manage his estate? Should he trust his wife to manage the accounts? How should he manage his oil, his wine, his cloth. And then the next level took it to the city-state. How should a city-state manage its affairs? And then the economist Adam Smith in 1776, he founded sort of Western economics talking about the nation-state.

10:27Why are some nation-states thriving like the UK at the time, while others seem to be stagnating? Now, there's a natural progression going on here from the household to the city to the nation. 200 years after Adam Smith, it's time for us to look up to the next level. It's the planetary household. It makes sense. We now have the science to understand it. We have the global connections to speak across planetary devices we're doing right now, in a moment. We need to think about our planetary home, on which we now realize we depend upon her life-supporting systems of a stable climate and fertile soils, a protective ozone layer and healthy oceans and ample biodiversity.

11:06And then when we reclaim the name of economics, the management of the household in the interest of all of her inhabitants, all human beings, and the rest of the living world. Now, if that's economics, that's a really exciting 21st century reinvention of the possibilities. I love when you share this too. You have it in your TED Talk and in the book as well. You say, today we have economies that need to grow whether or not they make us thrive. And what we need, especially in the richest countries, are economies that make us thrive, whether or not they grow. And I'm just like, because I feel like I want to talk about that and unpack that a little bit more.

11:49And I do want to get into the donut and the actual structure of it and what it means. But I think about a lot of the folks in our audience and folks that come and write into our show, write into me. And there's even this existential pressure, I think, in society about what success means on a personal level, right? What growth means. And if you're not dominating and you're not crushing everybody, you know, in this thing, and we have so much burnout and we have so many people pushing themselves beyond their own human limits and boundaries and going like, what the heck is all of this even for? So this notion of building lives that are centered around thriving rather than growth, I find so many implications for your idea.

12:37So I'm going to be quiet for a minute if there's anything that you want to say about this idea of economies that make us thrive, whether or not they grow. And then, of course, I've got a million more questions. So in the book, and I really had to dive deep and discuss these ideas with myself, and I found it very challenging because, as I said, it took me to this precipice of my education as an economist there was there was no path forward here and I really thought about the ways in which our societies and economies are locked into endless growth there are some ways we're locked in economically the need for market returns in financial markets we're locked in politically governments want to be able to say the economy has grown they want to be members of the G20 the club of the biggest most powerful nations but we're locked in socially too and I'm just going to focus there because of the examples you just brought we've had a hundred years of consumer propaganda led by a man called edward bernays fascinating that he was the nephew of sigmund freud and he realized that if he took his uncle's psychotherapy and connected it to advertising he could create retail therapy so bernays realized that if he convinced us that our most basic desires like to be admired, to be included, to be loved.

13:53If he could connect those to that phone and that car, buy that bag and you'll be admired. Have that phone and you'll be included. He invented consumer propaganda and advertising and marketing. And I want to say, Edward, you know, well done because it worked. But please, can you now join the other team and help us unravel that? because these objects do not bring us belonging and connection and meaning. It is, of course, through other people, through community. And more and more people, I think, are aiming to discover that. But we've also, on this subject of growth, from that mentality, and particularly, I think, marketed by what's typically known as the American dream, the idea that a person in their own life is successful if they're getting promoted and they're getting a higher salary year on year or decade on decade, they're getting a bigger house a second car but also that their kids should have more than they had that this was progression and ever since say the second world war that was a very strong symbol of I've done well and I've done well by my kids and they're doing well but now I look at many young people they're not demanding or expecting to earn more than their parents I see so many young people marching saying we want a stable climate so actually what they aspire to is much more existential in terms of the stability of our planetary home and of course some young people say I never want to rent a car why would I want to own a car I just want to rent one at the moment with this app when I when I need it I'm going to travel on public transport and they want to live much lighter so there's a real possibility of shedding that 100 years of consumer marketing and just going back to the fundamental values.

15:36What does it mean to belong and be loved and admired and to be creative and to feel we have agency in our lives? And it rarely comes from shopping. Yes. So I want to talk about the donut. It is this amazing image. It's an amazing metaphor and an idea. So for those who haven't seen the TED Talk and they haven't really fully understood where we're going yet, can you walk us through the donut? I certainly can. So I sat down in 2012 and I tried to draw a new diagram for the economy because I think we need to replace old ideas with new ones so if we want to dislodge this image of endless growth as the shape of progress then what do we put there instead and I know a donut is not the most intuitive maybe idea of what this would be but the good news is you don't have to eat this one it's the only one that actually does turn out to be any good for us and of course I have it here here it is here's the donut so think of humanity's use of earth's resources radiating out from the middle of this circle and think of it as a compass for human prosperity this century so the goal is to leave no one in the hole in the middle of the donut because that is where people are left falling short on the essentials of life that's where people do not have the resources they need for good food and housing health care, education, income, connection, community, social equity.

16:59Leave no one in the hole. The world's governments have already agreed to this, by the way. These are crowdsourced from the sustainable development goals that they all signed up to. So it's agreed internationally and leave no one below this social foundation. That's a good start. But as we use Earth's resources, we know that we humans start to use them. They can put pressure on Earth's life support system. So just as there's an inner limit that no one should fall below, there's also an outer limit here called the ecological ceiling, where if we go too far in using Earth's resources, we will induce climate breakdown.

17:33We will acidify the oceans and create a hole in the ozone layer. We will destroy the biodiversity of Earth's forests. We use up the water from the lakes and rivers. We break down the fabric of life. And these around the outside, they're known as the nine planetary boundaries. You can think of them as the life support systems that make life work on planet Earth. The only known living planet in the universe. So it's pretty worth looking after this one. So in the very simplest of terms, the goal of the donut is to meet the needs of all people within the means of the living planet. And suddenly, as you can see, the shape of progress has completely changed.

18:12It's not this ever rising line of growth. It's this, when I do it with my hands, I think, well, of course it's a heartbeat. And I love what you said about the symbols of those images. I was so struck when I started looking at the images used by many ancient and indigenous cultures. The yin yang, the Taoist endless knot, the Buddhist knot, the Celtic double spiral. They all have this dynamic balance and it's a much more feminine shape and it's holistic. And it's not aiming endlessly to grow. And I suddenly realized that that Western concept of growth, that's the outlier. That's the odd one out.

18:54And can we, as Western societies, learn from the deep wisdom embedded in these symbols of ancient cultures and indigenous cultures? Can we create our own wisdom that brings us back into balance? So it was a really profound realization for me, the importance of visual imagery in helping us shape what we think progress looks like. Yeah. And I love that, too, because I wanted to also highlight this. I read doing my research that when you originally kind of started putting this image together, do I have it right that you actually had it and you stuck it in a drawer for like six months? Yeah. Can you tell us about that?

19:36And I like that you pull that out. And I know from your show why you pull that out. Because, yeah, when the first time I drew it, so I'd seen this diagram of these nine planetary boundaries at this outer limit of pressure on the planet. And I was working at Oxfam. I've seen this big open plan office. And there were people over there campaigning to raise funds for an imminent famine in the Sahel. There were people here campaigning for health for all in South Asia. I thought, hang on, if there's an outer limit of human's resources, humanity's use of Earth's resources. There's an NLMT too. We call them human rights.

20:11So let's draw that in. So I drew a circle within a circle and it looked like a donut. Now, I was sitting at my desk and I was drawing this, you know, literally sketching it on the back of an envelope. And I thought, I like that. I find that satisfying. I like pictures, but I'm not sure anybody else is going to think much of it. So I did literally shove it in the bottom drawer of my desk. I had this real feeling as a social scientist and an errant economist too, you know, natural scientists would say, well, yesterday, you know, go back to your table. That's a bit fluffy and fuzzy. So I literally just put it away.

20:46And then I kept finding myself in conversations with people saying, we really need to bring together the world of social justice with environmental campaign. And I said, oh, I've got this. Shall I show you? And they'd say, that's good that's good and then I was a meeting uh October the 18th 2011 I can tell you almost to the day of this call I was at a meeting with earth system scientists who dig these planetary boundaries and I was really intimidated I was thinking I'm not questionable why I'm here I I'm not a statistician what am I going to say and someone right at the beginning of the meeting leaned across the table and said well I'm looking to our colleague from Oxfam me because my problem with these planetary boundaries my problem with this is there are no people in it and I have one of those moments you think am I gonna do that am I gonna am I gonna stand up I hadn't I hadn't brought the diagram with me it was a sketch in my bottom drawer and it's one of those moments in life you think am I gonna do this I'm I'm gonna do this and there was a big whiteboard wall and there were some pens and I it's that before you know it you're standing up and saying can I draw something on the wall and I drew it on the wall.

21:53I drew the planche of boundaries and I said, just as there is an outer limit, there's an inner limit. I remember I drew it really, really quickly because I was very nervous. And I thought they'd say, yes, dear, go back to your chair. And one of these scientists, he looked at it and he said, that's the diagram we've been missing all along. It's not a circle, it's a donut. And that gave me this real clarity of conviction. Okay. If the scientists are saying that's been missing all along, there's something here and I noticed that for the rest of the day of that meeting people kept pointing to it and talking to it was immediately useful so I've really learned a lot from that and I share that with with people because I I think a lot of people have an idea in their bottom drawer that they think well I think that's interesting but maybe nobody else with and nobody else will and what happens when you bring it out and you actually have the courage of your ideas I invite my students to mash up ideas they have what happens when you trumpet them together because this is where new ideas come from.

22:50And when we see them, they're published and they're in color and they're beautifully designed. And it just looks like they've always been there. But it wasn't. It was a scrap of paper. Thank you so much for sharing that. And you are spot on because you know intuitively we have so many brilliant souls. Like one of my beliefs is that every single one of us is on this planet for many reasons. We have many gifts and perspectives that only we're here to share. And I love you revealing that story because it shows anyone who's listening right now, like Kate is brilliant. And they're just going like, my goodness, how did she put it?

23:25And then it's like, oh, it started on the back of an envelope. And she even thought that, you know, I just don't know. Let me put it in my drawer for a little bit. So once people started reading your work, embracing your work, getting so excited about this concept, they wanted to activate it, right, in their cities and communities. So here comes the Donut Economics Action Lab. So I believe you said you never wanted to manage people or money or set up an organization. So I'm wondering if you can tell us how this came about. You're absolutely right. So there was me. First of all, I worked at Oxfam.

23:59I was in the research team. I was happily beavering away doing my research in the back room. Loved that role. And then I left to write the book Donut Economics because it was really clear to me that this idea wanted to be expanded. and I wanted to re-approach economics, putting the donut at its centre. And then when I was giving presentations of the book, after a talk, people would come up to me and they might say, yeah, could you sign the book? But then they say, oh, by the way, I'm doing this. I am a teacher. I'm teaching this in my classroom because the students deserve these new ideas. I'm a town planner and I'm taking this into our next meeting.

24:33I'm a CEO or I'm a new employee or I'm a startup. And I'm really help us ensure that we're creating an enterprise that has purpose in the 21st century. I'm a community member and I'm going to take this to my low carbon community meeting. So all these people were doing it. And yes, it absolutely called me out of my comfort zone of being in a big organization and I'll just, you know, do my research. I had that moment of like, oh my goodness, I have to take responsibility for this idea and creating a space where people can come together and connect and inspire each other. Because I also realized that the most inspiring person is not someone standing on a stage saying, here's a theory and you could do this and you could do that.

25:19The most inspiring person is the teacher who says, and this is how I'm teaching in my classroom. To other teachers, that's gold dust. To mayors, hearing a mayor saying, yeah, I'm putting it at the heart of my city strategy. To students saying, I'm going to demand that we're taught this in our classroom. To business people, entrepreneurs, I'm designing my business around this. So if we can unleash peer to peer inspiration, that is what makes ideas fly. So yes, I found a co-founder. I needed a co-pilot, a wonderful Spanish woman called Carlota Sand. I said, let's co-found this together. We set up Donut Economics Action Lab.

25:54It's on the internet. That's where it exists. So anyone can join us coming through our door on our website, become a member. We put all of our ideas in the commons. So we've turned the tools of donut economics into ideas in the commons we invite people to take them adapt them create them we just ask for reciprocity if you're using these ideas please share back how you've used them because we will learn so much from what you've done and how you've adapted it and other people will be so inspired by your practice so that's what my my work is and i tell you it it gets me into energy every single day connecting with people all around the world turning the ideas and to practice brilliantly in their own cultural context and renaming the donut in in turkey it's called a simit uh in spain it's a rosquilla in italy's that chambela let's make it our own cultural foods and and really adapt it to every context so i got so excited too because again as i've said obsessed with you for years and then i was laying in bed one sunday morning i don't know if it was an article in the times or it was just something on my apple news feed but I said, oh my goodness.

27:02Like I was here thinking like, I need the world. I need more of the world to know about Kate, again, trying to get my team to get in touch with your team so we could talk about this. And then I'm like, Amsterdam has adopted this. And I think Portland and Philadelphia, can you, anything that you can reveal about cities like that that are moving forward with this? And we know it's not gonna be easy. We know it's gonna be messy, but it is so worth it. So anything that you want to share about the cities that are working to move the donut to the center of their city's thriving policy? Brilliant. So, yes, and this is the work that's been really occupying me and exciting me for the last couple of years.

27:41Cities like Amsterdam came to us and said, we like this idea. You know, really progressive policymakers, the deputy mayor. I like this idea. I want to put this at the center of our policy to become a circular economy. So we need to use resources again and again, far more carefully, collectively, creatively and slowly. And the donut is a really great symbol of wanting to become a thriving city, not a growth city. We want to thrive. We want everybody here to live well. And we know we need to come back within planetary boundaries. So we began running workshops with Amsterdam and Portland and Philadelphia.

28:12And then, of course, the Covid crisis hit and many cities were stopped from really taking this work forward at speed. Amsterdam, with that Dutch determination, decided to forge ahead naturally in April 2020, in the height of their COVID crisis. They released right here their Amsterdam city portrait. We co-created it with them, a portrait of their city through the lens of the donut. And they put it at the heart of their strategy. I'm going to Amsterdam because they are then saying 18 months on, they're saying, right, we're going to hold ourselves to account. What have we done? Are we moving into the donut or not?

28:46how we mobilizing our city changemakers, the government, but also the universities, the civic networks, the entrepreneurs, the neighborhoods. There's an amazing energy kicking off there. And of course, they inspire others elsewhere. So cities from Glasgow to Oslo to even nations, Barbados, Curacao in the Caribbean, in Bangladesh, in India, in Africa, we're in touch with colleagues there who are saying, we want to try putting these ideas into practice in our city. And I love what you said, Mary. And of course, it's not easy. And of course, it's going to be messy. And because they've got to introduce these ideas to become regenerative, become distributive, to pursue the donut rather than growth in the midst of a very complex economic situation that's embedded in the country, embedded in the region, embedded in the world.

29:38So it's tough at every corner and yet it's exhilarating at every corner. The one thing I've learned is there are amazing change makers everywhere. Some of them work for government. Some of them protest in the streets. Some of them are teachers in the classroom and some of them are students. Some of them are CEOs and some of them are founding of social enterprise. Folks are everywhere. And when they pop up and they connect and they start to put that energy together, it's phenomenal. And that's what keeps me going every day. Thank you so much for sharing that. Like as I was coming down, getting ready for this interview, I'm like, how do I get in touch with the presumed next mayor of New York, which is in New York City where I am?