491 - Snap Out of a Funk & Find Joy in Life Again with Byron Katie

0:02It's Louise from Team Forleo, and today we're kicking off a three-part series on building up your joy. It's summer here in the U.S., and that's usually when things might slow down a bit, and we soak in the sunshine, so it's the perfect time to refuel. First up, we're revisiting Marie's incredible conversation with the one and only Byron Katie. With honesty and wisdom, they walk through Katie's four questions that will change your life. It can help you turn off that negative chatter in your mind and bring you healing. Let's jump right in.

0:38Hi. Marie. Hi. Thank you so much for being here today. I figured we'll just get started. We'll just dive in. Good. Good, good. Excellent. So first, Katie, I want to thank you because the work has made such a tremendous impact on my life and continues to this day. So I am super grateful for this conversation. And for folks that are listening right now that may not know your story. I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about what was happening way back in February of 1986 and what life was like when you went to the Hope House. Well, you know, it was years of depression, more than a decade of serious, deep depression and suicidal.

1:21And it was hard. Anyone that's been depressed understands what that's like. And so, you know, it was tough. And as I lay sleeping on the floor one day, I was so full of self-loathing, I didn't believe I even deserved a bed to sleep in. So I'd actually sleep beside my bed. And one day as I lay sleeping, a bug crawled over my foot and I opened my eyes. And just like we all do, every morning we wake up and we have the thought, I'm awake, I'm late for work, I'll sleep a little longer. And just prior to that, we're fast asleep. There really is no world in our consciousness. And so this happened. The bug crawled over my foot.

2:13I opened my eyes just like every morning. But there was no identification there. it's as though I woke up with such a start that there was no time for the mental to check in and so in that space of non-identification I saw how the world, I saw how my world was made and it was when I saw it it was so clear and the first sound that I heard was the laughter that was just rolling out of what I saw then, this body, which was quite a shock. And I mean, everything was just so clear. And I saw, Maria, what's important about that is that it's for all of us to understand, just like I did on the floor, it's available to understand that when we believe our thoughts, we suffer.

3:12And when we question them, we don't suffer. I've come to see this is true for every human being. And I saw in that moment like a window, and I saw the sky out of the window, and I saw the trees, but there was no meaning. There was no meaning to it until I believed. The mind began to identify them, the trees, sky, clouds, wall, bed. And so that was the marriage of how my world began. The world named the world and what we believe it to be. So there's no harm in tree. But then when I start having thoughts like it's an ugly tree, it needs to be chopped down, it's in my way, those kinds of thoughts, it's not to change them.

4:07It's just to question them and see what is valid for each of us as a more aware human being, you know, to come to understand our own value. I think it's so fascinating because it's like, were you around 44 or 46 when this happened? I was 43. 43. Yeah, it was February of 1986. February of 1986. But, you know, as we say, I was born in this world as an apparent physical body, you know, in 1943. But I wasn't conscious. You know, I had to believe myself in. Like, maybe my mother said, it's a tree. And I just, you know, I just would go on with my life. It's a tree and maybe I just say goo goo ga ga and drool you know and so in in some moments someone said it's a tree and then I attached to the concept of that is a tree that's its name I named it just like I I saw on the floor um in a in a whole other way but when I believed you know The first time he believed is what brought me into this apparent world.

5:34Prior to that, we can say I was not born of the kind of consciousness that we hold here in this world we call Earth. Yes. I was first introduced to the work and to you through your book, Loving What Is. and it just was moment after moment of laughter and oh my goodness yes yes yes and so um I again I just really do want to thank you because that was back I believe in the late 90s or early 2000s for me and every single time I re-encounter you and the work I can just feel layers and layers of stress literally melt away from me. You know, it's like - Doesn't it run deeper each time? Yes. It's like we're not just talking about, let's see, to go back to the tree.

6:29We're not just talking about, is a tree, is it true? It's a tree, is it true? You know, it's not that. It affects the way we see everything, to question anything and to meditate in those four questions and turnarounds. It shifts the way we see everyone and everything. and the beautiful thing about it is don't we become kinder and more aware and in touch? Yes, and more lighthearted. One of your insights, I have a bunch and I'll just kind of, we'll dance around and wherever we go, we go kind of like life. But one of the things that you say is, the only time we suffer is when we believe a thought that argues with what is.

7:09Wanting reality to be different than it is, is hopeless. And I loved this. This was a part of your little booklet, that we think these thoughts all day. Some of us, we think people should be kinder or children should be well-behaved or my husband or my wife should agree with me or I should be prettier or thinner or more successful. And I love that you wrote this, that these thoughts are our ways of wanting reality to be different than it is. And if you think this sounds depressing, you're right. All the stress that we feel is caused by arguing with what is. Oh, it's so true. It is so true. And I remember I was with you for this recent New Year's cleanse that you did right around New Year's.

7:47Oh, good. Yeah. And I just hearing you say these types of words again, it was almost comical when I began to listen to my mind from a more just detached, objective space of observation of how much these thoughts are so torturesome if I believe them. Uh-huh. And you can see the world that you've graduated out of, that you've graduated from, and afford to laugh, whereas prior to that, they weren't necessarily so funny. No, not funny at all. Not funny. Not funny at all. And so for anyone listening right now who's like, okay, all right, ladies, let's take it back here, saying, hold up a minute. Wait, if I stop - Let's back it up.

8:35Let's back it up. If I stop arguing with reality, aren't I going to become passive? Like, won't I lose the desire or the ambition to act? So Katie, what do you say to someone who might have that concern? That the opposite is true because we're removing the clutter that keeps us from moving fearlessly in our lives. The extreme opposite is true. It's like if I'm going to, I'm walking down the street and I see maybe some trash beside the road and it's on my path. And I have the thought, you know, I should put it in the bin. You know, there's a bin in my sight, a trash bin. And I'm walking, I think I should pick that up.

9:23And everything's there for me to follow through with it. But then my mind says, why? It's not my trash. It's not fair. I don't want to interrupt my steps. You know, the mind. But if we question those thoughts, there's nothing in our way from doing the right thing. So this is about the end of fear that keeps us from doing what we know to do in our hearts. And we don't lose. There's a law in this. We always gain. And it's just a law. I love to say when you think life cannot get any better, it has to. So that's the law. It's just are we noticing or not? And what keeps me back, what holds me back from my heart's desire?

10:15The thoughts I'm believing, thinking and believing that talk me out of doing what's right. Like I could see my own thoughts as you were giving that example, Katie, you know, seeing trash, let's say on the ground as I'm on a walk or on a run. and I could hear my mind instantly spurt up like, oh, people shouldn't litter so much, right? Who is thinking, why aren't people taking care of the environment? Like I could hear really common ideas. Oh my gosh, yes. And if everybody did that or no wonder the world is such a mess as I walk by the trash or run by the trash. That's exactly right. Yeah. So why do people leave trash on the ground?

11:01Well, why do I leave trash on the ground? I've got every excuse in the world. That's why there's trash on the ground. And if each of us were more aware, it's not just a privilege in this scenario. It's not just a privilege to pick up the trash, but it literally is a way of growing us, getting in the pattern of doing what's right and the end of procrastination. Yes. And procrastination is just another word for guilt. Yes. Yes. You know, you all often have answered that other question of, you know, someone saying, well, gosh, if I just don't resist what is, am I going to lose my desire or ambition?

11:50And I love that you've asked, can you really know that that's true? And also this notion of which is more empowering? I wish I hadn't lost my job or I lost my job. Now what intelligent solutions can I find right now? I think this whole notion that you share about not resisting what is. I lost my job. What can I do from here? It's magical. Because the only way I could lose my job is there's a better one in store. But if my mind's at war with itself and at war with the world, then I'm depressed. I can't even get out of bed. You know, I've got a decade to prove how powerful these thoughts are and when they're questioned on how the enlightened mind, the body follows.

12:37I think it's also really important to note that you share, you know, when doing the work and when investigating whether or not you want to resist reality and the suffering that ensues when you do, it doesn't mean that you condone or prove of certain events. You know, no one wants their children to get sick as you share, you know, no one wants to be in a car accident, but when these things happen, how can it be helpful to mentally argue with them? Again, I'm just sharing some thoughts that you have in your work. We all know better than to do that, but we do it. And I think it's because we don't know how to stop.

13:15Yeah. And that was my life. We do it. I had no way out. No one could give me a way out short of drugs that my mind overrode. And the only way out was in. I had to look in myself and identify what I was thinking and believing about the world and you and me and question that. And that set me free to make intelligent, wiser choices. It just comes with the turf. That's the territory we're entering. On the other side of questioning what I'm thinking and believing, the path is clear. It's just, I just do the right thing. And my family certainly appreciates it. And the people I work with here at BKI.

14:13And we all hold an appreciation one to the other. And, you know, there'd be no war if we all just sat down and looked at ourselves. And the productivity that we could do. And the ways that we could economically make different choices. Because the money's freed up. oh my gosh, it's just, it's unlimited. You share that all suffering begins and ends with you. And I love that. You also wrote, I realized that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered. But then when I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer. And that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. So for those who may be unfamiliar, I'm curious if you can walk us through the four questions and the turnaround that is the work.

15:00Oh, I'd love to. I love that. And also, this is all free on thework.com. If I have anything of value, it's free there. Yes. Or byronkady.com. So let's say, what's a belief we could work with? Like something terrible is going to happen or he doesn't care about me? What's a good one? Oh, let's play with a belief. Let's see. A belief, that's a good one. You know what? he doesn't... And then thoughts, for those of you, it doesn't have to... We have beliefs and we think, oh, I don't believe that. So just be a stressful thought. Yes, a stressful thought. Great. Oh, you know what? Here's a silly one because I feel like some of the silliest ones can be some of the most persistent.

15:42Absolutely. He should put the toilet seat down because I've asked him 20 times. Yes, yes, yes. And he still leaves the toilet seat up. Okay, so he should put the toilet seat on. So for your listeners, the work is meditation. It's a way of identifying what is causing our stress. And in this case, we're working with he should put the toilet seat down. Okay, so the first question we're going to meditate in is, is it true? Now, visualize a time when you were believing that, a time when you walked into the bathroom and there was in plain sight and you had the thought he should put the toilet seat down.

16:30Now, so everyone meditate there. Just hold that anchor in the situation. It's very important. So he should put the toilet seat down. Is it true? Can you really know that it's true that he, and you know who you're talking about, he should put the toilet seat down? And the answer is either yes or no, just for all of you that are new to the work. It's not yes and or no because. You just stay there until you're shown, and you'll see it through images and thoughts. As you contemplate the question, he should put the toilet seat down, is it true? can really know that it's true. Ray, look, nothing in life is that complicated.

17:17You can do whatever you set your mind to. If you roll up your sleeves, you get in there and you do it. Everything is figureoutable. I was still a little girl when my mom said those three words to me. I had no idea how much they changed my life. Eventually, that simple phrase helped me end a physically abusive relationship, get out of piles of debt and land every job I've ever had, from bartending to trading on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, to publishing at Condé Nast, to becoming one of the world's first Nike elite dance athletes, to starting a business at 23 and building it into a multi-million dollar socially conscious education and media company from the ground up.

18:03Now look, I don't know what your dreams are, but I do know this. They are 100 % figureoutable. If you want help on your journey, get yourself a copy of my number one New York Times bestselling book, Everything is Figureoutable. Now, one big thing, do not just read the book. I need you to do the book because if you do, it will change your life. Learn more at everythingisfigureoutable.com or head to your favorite place to buy books or audio books now.

18:38Thankfully, because I've practiced the work with you, I'm able to get to a no. And I'm like, no, but I can tell you, and I just want to share this just very honestly, I can almost hear a different version of my mind, Katie, going, but yes, because I've asked for it 50 ,000 times. Exactly. And when we ask, is it true, that's what comes up. I've told him a hundred times, he just doesn't get it. And here we go, we're in this other world. And we're literally fixing breakfast or lunch in there, but we are mentally in the freaking bathroom. So it's like we're not present in where we are. We're living in that bathroom and in our mind's eye.

19:27And then he walks in and he says, hi, honey. And we give him the look like, yeah sure like he doesn't know he left the toilet seat down again so you know all that goes to you know when we sit in this but then I just go yep hear that hear that hear that as I'm as I'm in the kitchen at the sink I'm mentally in the bathroom and I'm doing this work he should put the toilet toilet seat down is it true so until I come out with a clear yes or no I'm going to hear all those things that you just brought up. So you ended up just finding that no and then experiencing it emotionally. You just get it. And yes is equal to no, all of you out there.

20:16We're just looking for your answer, the one shown to you as you seriously and mindfully meditate in that bathroom as you stand at the sink. Okay. So now the next question, how do you react standing at the sink? How do you react when you believe the thought he should put the toilet seat down? Now you're at the sink, look at you walking into the bathroom in the situation where you had the thought. He should put the toilet. Now, how do you react? what happens when you believe the thought? I make an angry scowly face. I definitely pull my energy back. I get bitchy. I feel entitled. I am kind of curt and mean.

21:08I might even say something that's a little hurtful. Like again? Yes, absolutely. I am certainly, Katie, I am not my highest self when I am believing. That thought, the way I react is definitely, it's kind of like having a little tantrum. You know, it's having like a childish tantrum. That's how I describe it. Okay. Now, it's feel the emotions you feel. Just take time out for that. Feel what that feels like when you describe. Frustration. It feels probably little twinges of anger. I could feel a sense of feeling misunderstood or not respected. Now get in touch with your body language. Witness that.

21:55Yes. It's really important. We see that and we witness it. And the next time, sometimes that's the clue that we're caught in the dream again. Yes. And those emotions, they're there to remind us that we're thinking out of, we're no longer in touch with reality, we're in the dream. And then notice how you treat him when you think the thought. And notice how you look at him and the words that come out and your attitude. And just sitting there in the silence, notice what arises. and then describe it? So from my body posture, it is closed off. I would say that there is a coldness, like I can turn on the ice queen in a moment.

22:57I would say the words that come out of my mouth, they are unkind. There is a sense of anger and frustration, of pulling back love, of holding back my heart. Just again, definitely not my best self, Katie. Yeah, and we turn into like these strict, stern teachers. And they're the inferior and we're the superior. And definitely making sure that they know there's something wrong with them. That's right. I'm right, he's wrong. a superiority like a punishing kind of nature and um yeah yeah absolutely and so then we we feel that and and then notice and this really takes some presence but notice as you're thinking that and feeling that and acting that out notice any images you see of the past where he has done that before.

24:05Yes. It's almost as if there's like a, a stacking, right? A picture stacking of all of the times. Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. Now look at the images as you are in that. Look at the images that were going on in your mind's eye of the future where he's going to do it again and again yes an ending the toilet seat up for infinity yeah yeah so here is something to notice is it what your is the toilet seat being up is that is that what's bothering you or what you're thinking and believing as you witness the toilet seat it's the latter okay it's the latter okay so i love that marie because we can reality will never upset us what we are thinking and believing about reality those images of past future as we witness the present moment now that is the dream world and that is what's upsetting us it's like having anything from a minor nightmare to a major one.

25:29And it can be like the princess and the pea. It can be the slightest little bruise, or it can be like a major meltdown. People, they divorce over these things. They murder over these things. They fight in front of their children over these things or arguer, we're teaching the people around us how to live by example. And our mind would say, by example, my children should understand that the toilet seat should be down. And that's out of context, but it's just a bad example of what we're... Yes. Because we hide so much from our children of our disapproval of others. Okay, so now the last question.

26:22There are only four. Last question. Be there now. Look at the toilet seat. Who would you be without the thought? He should put the toilet seat down. Oh, like joyous and loving and absolutely undisturbed at all. With the state of a toilet seat. It's not even personal. Yeah. It just is what it is. It just is what it is. And to imagine that that could upset a human being out of the enlightened mind that you're seeing now is radically different. Now, he should put the toilet seat down. I love this work. It's so user-friendly because it doesn't just leave us out there in the others. Can you find an opposite or a turnaround?

27:17He should put the toilet seat down? Yes. And one opposite is he shouldn't put the toilet seat down. Okay. So that is catching up to reality. I know he shouldn't, he didn't. That's right. He didn't. He didn't have a problem with it. I'm the one with the problem. That's right. There's something off here. He's living this. He's in there singing and whistling, and I am. Okay, so can you find another one? I should put the toilet seat down. Okay, so now just in your mind's eye, just walk up, do it in your mind's eye, and just be present. And is it without what you're thinking and believing, isn't it fair?

28:08You're the one with the problem. Yes. If I'm the one that wants it down, I should be the one that wants it down. Yeah. Because this is self-care. Yes. And then when he walks in, you're at the sink, you can say, you know, honey, you left the toilet seat up again. And I just had just the most amazing time just blaming you in my mind's eye and then just taking care of it. And I'd appreciate if you put the toilet seat down. And then he will or he won't. But there's no war. Yes. In our home. Yes. And where do we do our best work when we are in that state of connection or blame? Blaming. Oh, connection all the way.

28:59And, you know, I just, I want to share here. I know I created that silly example, but I feel... It's not so silly though, is it? No, because I feel like so much of our lives, Katie, at least again, when I... They're built of trivia like this. It's not so trivial when we're in it. That's right. That's absolutely right. And again, I just want to reiterate. So we went through, we skipped question two because, you know... I combined it. Is it true? Can you really know that it's true? Yes. That second one is, can you absolutely know that it's true, that he should put the toilet seat down? So I kind of combined them in the interest of, you know, when I first started sharing the work with people, there were only three questions.

29:49And I thought, you know, I'll split it to give them a double shot at the first one. I love it. I didn't know that. That's really cool. Yeah. So is it true? Can you really know that it's true? Yeah. I also wanted to just make a note here for anyone listening. Again, I know that it was somewhat trivial example that we just went through. But if you're unfamiliar with Katie's work, she's done it on so many situations with so many beautiful souls throughout our world, including folks who have done the work on rape, folks who have done the work on war, on torture, on prolonged illness, and even the death of a child.

30:30So I say that, you know, not to go into this dark place, but to simply share how incredibly profound this process is. That it can, we can use it everywhere. Truly, truly, truly it is. There is no dark place that we have experience or fear to experience that we cannot meet with understanding if we simply understood how to identify what's frightening us and to question it. But it does take a meditative, it does take, you know, why ask these questions if we don't really want to know the truth? Because the truth is the way out. and what I love about this is it's where we're looking at our own truth not the world's but really it's a showdown with the self don't you just really want to know the cause of suffering if I think it's my husband then I'm looking out and I need to look in because what I am thinking and believing about that situation that has I am the one creating the problem it's you know what I'm thinking, Marie, is it's a toilet seat for heaven's sakes but we can only afford to say that after we have worked on it.

31:50Yeah. So who'd think a toilet seat would be there for our own good? Who would think, right, that the toilet seat is our spiritual teacher but it actually is. It is. Anything that causes throws us into a state like that takes us back to ourselves. So we're grateful for, you know, we can, you can walk and see a toilet seat like that and laugh and laugh and laugh and not even remember that, that it happened or you put it down or anything. So you cease to even like taking credit for putting it down. You stop understanding what people are talking about because it's just such a common way. We just pick up the trash.

32:35We just do the dishes. We put down the toilet seat. And then that's what people learn from us because we are a living example of how we want the world to be. And because we have the world, it's what we want it to be. It's responsible to question what we believe that would harm ourselves or another human being in any way. I've used it so many times to catch myself. It was interesting. After doing the New Year's cleanse, I just had such a great time, Katie, catching myself actually standing at the kitchen sink and about to hear the words come out of my mouth to direct Josh to do something or to try and arrange the world how I believed that it should be arranged because, of course, I'm right in my mind.

33:27And I literally heard myself go, Marie, if you'd like those dishes dried, then do them. And I did them. And I was like, wow, This is just delightful and fun and so much more pleasant. It's such a more gentle and loving way to go through life. So I had to share that with you because I keep catching myself, and it's great. And isn't it time-saving? Yes. Oh, my goodness. And the dishes are done. And have you ever wondered who did them? I mean, because your mind is so pleasant to be with that it really becomes like a timeless world. You know, you've shared something. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about it.