Inside the world of a Grammy-nominated hit songwriter

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0:40I love that Avocado proves you don't have to choose between comfortable, supportive sleep and your values. And now, during our Earth Month sale, you can get up to 15 % off Avocado mattresses. Just go to avocadogreenmattress.com. Get up to 15 % off at AvocadoGreenMattress.com. AvocadoGreenMattress.com. The Mario Rosenstock Podcast. Thanks to HUM. Finance made easy when you shop tech, electrical, appliances, kitchens, and much more. Flexify Europe Limited. Trading as HUM is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Coming up on this episode of the Mario Rosenstock Podcast. That was an amazingly magical moment where the energy, the vibe.

1:22we sang the BVs. It was like, in the name of love. And we were just like belting the song. And then fast forward to two years later and I'm at Coachella in the Sahara tent watching Martin Garrix and everybody singing along and it's been a big hit. Oh my God. And I've been in other scenarios where I've been in gym classes and then my song comes on and people are, I see people working a little bit hard and I'm like, yes, because that song motivates them or I see people crying or I see someone singing. Wow. You know, it's the most magical thing and it's even more magical that people are purely doing that, maybe around me not knowing that I am one of the writers.

2:06What do Niall Horan, Britney Spears, Westlife, Martin Garrix and One Direction all have in common? The answer is they've all had hits written or co-written by Grammy-nominated Irish singer-songwriter Ruth Anne Cunningham. Ruth Anne is a real Irish success story with multi-platinum global hits totalling over 10 billion streams and collaborations with greats like Diana Ross and John Legend. Ruthann joined me on the Sunday Roast radio show on Today FM a couple of years ago to tell me the story behind Nice to Meet Ya which she co-wrote with Niall Horan a song that went on to be a huge hit. So we asked her to come back for a chat about all of her other hit songs, her collaborations and of course her own successful career as a performer.

2:46She has some really, really cool stories to tell. That was when I was like, Nice to Meet Ya and we were just icing them each, what's your name? I think that that was the first section we wrote. And the gotta love for you, I love you, that's real. So I was trying to do the kind of like, what would be like a thing that almost sounds like a sample and then Niall ended up doing it and it almost sounds like a song. Gotta love for you, gotta love for you, that's real. Pink Pony Club was out for three years. It was just sitting there and it had not that many streams and it wasn't a hit. And that's why I'm always saying the song's not the problem.

3:17Sometimes it's the vehicle. people just love Irish people. You know, all the people before me that have made this great name for Ireland really helped me, especially in my first times in Hollywood of like walking into rooms. It was like being Irish was like the best all-in card I had. My full chat with Ruthann Cunningham coming up in just a couple of minutes time. But first, of course, you've noticed, haven't you, saunas? They're all the rage, not just saunas, but the cold plunge and then back into the sauna. Everybody's doing it. Lots of companies are making money from it. And they've even had a sauna, I believe, installed in Leinster House, would you believe?

3:55Ah, this is a great sauna going forward, Simon. Yeah, it's an excellent sauna. A government sauna to add to our facilities at Leinster House. How much did it come in at again? 4.2 million. Oh, that's not bad value. Not bad value for a sauna in a plunge pool. No, no, the plunge pool came in at 2.3 million extra. All right. Saunas are very good. Very good for the cardiac health, I hear. Oh yes, absolutely, and the weight loss. Ah, sure, we don't need to lose any weight, Simon, going forward. I'd say we're the lightest, tarnished, the Taoiseach combination in history. We're like a pair of jockeys.

4:27Except it's not the horses we're riding, it's the country, what? Sorry? I'm joking, I'm joking, joking. Right. Hi everybody, just keeping you all informed of how I'm delivering for the country today. What the hell are you doing, doing Instagram and the sauna? Here with the Taoiseach, of course. Ah, hello, how are you? Sweating it out on behalf of the Irish people. Just about to take a cold plunge. Are we? Right, let's go. Right, I've never done a cold plunge going forward. No, it's easy. Very good. You just get in. And you just put your whole body! Your whole body under the water! I'm getting in now.

5:02It can't be that bad. Going forward! Going forward!

5:09Right, get out again. Get out again and get back in the sauna. Let's get back in the sauna. Back in the sauna. Close the door. Back in the sauna. Oh, God, that's better. Yeah, that's better. Oh, okay, yeah. It's so steamy in here. You can't see it, too. Yeah, it's excellent for a confidential cabinet conversation. Absolutely, Simon. A leak-proof sauna, huh? Absolutely, yeah. Hi, guys. Who's that? Who goes there? Who goes there? Jesus, Leo, is that you? I didn't see you till the steam, Leo. Sorry, guys. I still have my government fob. Just in case you were going to say anything confidential. No problem going forward.

5:39Thanks for letting us know, Leo. Hi, everybody. Still delivering in the... It's on Instagram again. ...on behalf of the Irish people. Joined by another Taoiseach, Actually, former Taoiseach Lee over at our hand. Hi, everybody. Well, lads, how's it hanging, huh? Oh, Willie, Willie, Willie, Willie, what are you doing? Willie, Willie, Willie. Willie, for God's sake. Of course I'm Willie. What are you talking about? No, Willie, the towel. Towel, please. You're supposed to be wearing a towel in the sauna. God, am I streaming live to the Irish people? Sorry about that, folks. Sorry, lads. Put it away, Willie, will you, for God's sake.

6:04Do you want to get the cops up here? Look, I was unaware of the etiquette in situ in the sauna. Unaware? It's no problem, lads. It's so steamy in here, nobody can see the offending appendage. Fairness, that had nothing to do with the steam, Willie. What do you mean? That's just a little joke, will you? Cop on, Willie. That's very funny. Relax. Anyway, it's not a bad little sauna, anyway, for five million. I thought it was 4.2 million. Oh, Jesus, no. Did you not hear about that? No. No, that was the quote we got from saunas or us. So who gave this one, then, Willie? These fellows are called Celtic gold saunas.

6:32All right. I think that's what they're called, anyway. Ah, fair enough. Very good value. Mary Lou will hit the roof when she hears this. Oh, Jesus, not that. Give her a dub. Chown carl, let the whole town carl. Oh, what a dose. Queer fin of fall. What's the Irish for sauna? What a dose. Taoiseach, the Irish for sauna. Oh, Jesus, Mary Lou. Is sauna. I didn't notice you there going forward. Well, there's a lot of things you don't notice these days, Taoiseach. And don't worry, Willie. I didn't notice it either. Slong, ogus bannacht galer. Oh, God. Jesus. Did she not get the memo on the towel either?

7:08Ah, poor old Willie O'Dea. and new comedy every week on the Mario Rosenstock podcast. Get in touch with me directly, mariorosenstock at gmail.com if you have any suggestions for guests that you would like to hear me interview or sketches that you might like me to do, tackle or new comedy characters that I haven't noticed that are out there. Maybe you could tell me about them, alert me to them. I read all the emails and I get back to most of them, mariorosenstock at gmail.com. And if you can't do that, just recommend this podcast to one other person. Remember, we don't charge for it. So you get this for free.

7:41So do your best to give me an L nod of respect, as Tony Fenton used to say. And of course, we are joined by our new sponsor. That is Hum Finance. Thank you to Hum Finance for coming on board as sponsors of the Mario Rosenstock podcast. Hum is a finance company based in Ireland with over 30 years experience globally. And we're delighted to be partnering up with them to bring you this show. Hum provides flexible payment solutions for customers across a wide range of retailers. IKEA, Harvey Norman, Easy Living Interiors, Easy Living Furniture and DID to name just a few. So whether you're buying a kitchen, a laptop or TV, some nice jewellery or clothing, whatever it might be, HUM is there to help you make those purchases and pay back in easy bite-size payments.

8:29It couldn't be easier. HUM is there for the big things and the little things in life. And now they're here for the Mario Rosenstock podcast. Thank you, HUM. So let's get on with today's episode and let's meet my special guest, Ruth Anne Cunningham. She's one of Ireland's big, biggest singer-songwriter success stories. And as you might expect, her love of music started very early. Yeah, I grew up in a very musical household. I was on the pubs in the race course in Baltoil when I was four. When we'd go for the Sunday roast or the Sunday car for you at the pubs, my mum and dad would put me on the tables as the stories go and I would just sing.

9:04I was kind of singing songs and my mum and dad were, you know, my mum and dad sing in church. They sing in hospices and they've always done that. So they were, they always were the family. We were always the family doing the sing songs. So if we went on holiday, the guitar was out. We were singing, you know, Grace and Christy Moore and, you know, all the songs. So I grew up in a very musical household and I would walk in and see my dad. I talk about it in the book, Eric Guitarring to Led Zeppelin or Phil in it. And then my mum, we would pick up my dad from work. He worked as a customs officer.

9:38So he was in Dublin Port a lot. And we would go to pick him up and she would play Garth Brooks. So I was listening to like the dance and the thunder rolls. And there's a video of me singing with my mum, like a really sad song. And I'm like, I can't even remember what song it was. I'm like, what are we having me doing? And it was like a really emotional song. So I was very much listening to Carole King and Leonard Cohen and James Taylor through my mum and dad. And then my sisters who are older than me, you know, one of my sisters was into Bon Jovi. The other was into Lauryn Hill, you know, New Kids on the Block.

10:12So from a very early age, I was in a melting pot of different music and I loved it all. And I think my parents always said I was just very obsessed with music. I just was, you know, I would sit and just listen. I would tape stuff from the radio. Back then you had to tape recordings. Yes. And I would just listen over and over to Mariah Carey. And without anybody asking me to or telling me to, I would just practice the runs. I was like, yeah, yeah, at like eight. And then I started writing songs at seven. I started, first of all, replacing famous songs with lyrics about like Happy Mother's Day or You're the Best Mom Ever.

10:47And I would use the melody from a song and replace it. And then at seven, I wrote my very first song, which was called He Lied to Me. Deep, deep, deep. It was so deep. Santa Claus that song was about, was it? I don't know. I think my sisters, I was always watching stuff, you know, Coronation Street. And he said, you know, you're watching little things around. And I wrote that and my parents straight away, their first reaction was, well, who lied to you? And I'm like, I don't know. I saw it on the TV. And so I very much would write about things I saw on the TV. Films. It's very deep. I mean, he lied to me.

11:20It's just like, you sheepers. That's like a song you'd hear Olivier Rodrigo or something releasing, you know. I know. I wish it was that good. It's a great, it's a great title. And when you say the runs, you are repeating the runs. Is that, what does the runs mean? The runs are like, you know, like a riff, like a famous Mariah Carey riff. Like it's like a scale. That's really fast. So it's called riffing on runs. I would, my dad gave me a two track tape recorder and a microphone. And because for singing in church, they had all that equipment and I would just be practicing. And then the other story goes that like from five, I sang, I had my first solo in the church.

12:00I sang this little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine. And that was my big moment at the church. And so from then they let me join the children's choir. So I think where I started understanding song structure from was actually when you'd get the sheets for the choir and it would have verse, chorus. And I was looking at them sheets and I was five and I was the youngest they'd let join because normally it would be like seven or eight. But because I was belting everything from the pews, they were like, go on, you can join. Because I was just like, yeah. So they let me join. And so I think that's where I learned song structure.

12:33And then, yeah, I started writing songs and I would teach them to my friends in the neighborhood and they would sing my songs around the neighborhood. And that was how I kind of started. So you are so you are a kind of you are a mixture. You are a hybrid as well of a singer, but also very, very strong DNA songwriter. so for example you know when I think of something like Dolly Parton or somebody do you know that kind of person who Dolly has the voice of an angel but half of her at least 50 % of her is that creative composition person you know and famously you know that story about writing Jolene and I Will Always Love You in one day she wrote it in one day and I love hearing about that but so you are both things.

13:18I'm both things I'm a singer songwriter for me they go together I can't have one without the other do you know what I mean like they both go together and and one without the other doesn't work it's like they both have to be together it doesn't mean I have to be Dua Lipa or Adele it just means that the my voice is my strongest instrument that I have so like you know some songwriters sit at a piano and I play piano as well so I'm a musician and I and I program I produce I you know I do all that stuff but my strongest thing is I can sit and I can a lot of the songs that like you some songs you might know of mine I've written acapella and I just will write them and I'll write the entire song just singing it in a room somewhere and then I'll go to the piano and I'll work out the chords around what I've written and same with production I will sit there and I will direct the musicians what I hear in my head and I'll hear the violins I'll hear the strings and so I wouldn't be that person who's like tweaking the, you know, I can do all that, the engineering side.

14:17I'm the person sitting with the engineer being like, right, we need strings to come in here and they're going to sing this and I need the strings to do this and like the vision for the record. So I'm very much, my voice is everything. My voice is every instrument and is my main instrument. So for me, the singer and the songwriter are together. When I think of singers, when I think of singers and people who have songs, all right, I mean, everybody from like, call it Robbie Williams, Taylor Swift. Right. So I think there's I'll call it maybe off the top of my head, broadly, two different types of people.

14:50There's one who has the vision themselves. Right. So they kind of go, I know what this song is about. It's about my life. It's called He Lied to Me. I know what the first line is. I know what the chorus is. I know most of the lines. I know where the violins are. I know where the guitar is. Actually, I can play the drums as well. I'm actually just going to do it myself. And then there's another one where it's like someone like maybe like Robbie Williams or somebody who goes, I just have this thing in my head which goes, well, fuck you. But that's all I've got. And then he needs somebody like Gary or the guy he worked with to go.

15:27So you really I love that energy out of the yeah, fuck you. Maybe that could be the thing. But we're going to build a whole song about that because that's not Robbie. Robbie doesn't have maybe that ability. It's more he has the he has the intent, maybe the the anger or the drive of the song, but he doesn't have the noose, the nous, the structural ability to put it together. Yeah. Do you do you get me? 100 percent. So in my book, I talk about the formula that I think you need in a room to make great songs, right? Like hit songs to make universal songs. And you've just described two of the roles.

16:02So I can play both roles and a lot of songwriters can do both. Some artists are the more the first one. So there's two main components you need to make a great song. One is the idea person. The idea person is the person who almost doesn't think. They just feel. They just bleh. They're like, oh, I'm thinking. And they sing something. And they might sing for like 20 minutes. The other component of that idea person is the song doctor. I call the song doctor. The song doctor is someone who has the bird's eye view, bigger picture and goes, that's the hook. That's the title. Sing that again. Because sometimes the idea person, the artist or a state of flow that they don't know what's bad or good.

16:44They might be like, oh, I don't know. And the song doctor is the person who comes at it more from a craft. So they craft. And and so, you know, Robbie in the scenario of Robbie and Guy Chambers and I've worked with Guy. So I know Guy and I and I've never worked with Robbie, but I've worked with Guy. And I would imagine in that scenario, Robbie is a great songwriter in the way of being the idea person and coming and being like, I don't want to rock. I'm probably going on the mic, spitting loads of stuff on the mic. And Guy Chambers is going, repeat that line. You should do that again. This bit should go up and and that way.

17:19And so and there are some songwriters, like I said, who can play both roles. And so there's times I go into a room and I've been doing this for over 20 years now professionally. So sometimes I go into the room and I know that my role that day, right? No one in the room is the idea person. So I'm like, okay, I'll step in with the ideas. I've got this title. I've got this thing. Other days I might be in with an artist, like you said, who, you know, maybe starting to become a songwriter, maybe has a diary of thoughts. Or sometimes I'll sit and just have a conversation with them and they're writing the song without even knowing it.

17:52And I'm taking note of all the strongest things they've said. And then I'll say to them, well, the title, we need to write a song called that. Or that line you said, just tell me what you want to say. I help them to make it into a song. That's amazing. Amazing, Ruth. And it's amazing. It's incredible because really what you're talking about, I wrote down here emotional intelligence here as well, right? I wrote down read the room and I wrote down therapist. They're all in my book. It's all therapy. It's all reading the room. it's all listening it's really about listening and it's really about vibes like I mean not the shitty meaning of the word vibes vibes has been you know dynamic dynamic and vibes and feeling somebody's energy and feeling maybe what's coming off them what's coming out of them and and tapping into tapping into their rawness and and I wrote down another word here as well the ability to either project in your case or receive vulnerability so it must be very important to be in a room where somebody can trust each other to be vulnerable.

18:56Yeah. And I and everything you said, again, it's all in my book like this because I talk about all the roles. There's the therapist, there's a searcher, there's a director, there's the lone wolf. There's some people who are very instant. You have to sometimes, you know, or there's artists who need a minute and I fake a phone call because I'm like, they need a second. They're overwhelmed. They need a minute. So reading like to be a songwriter, like as far as a career goes, you have to be incredibly emotionally intelligent. you have to be able to read the room and know where you need to fit and you need to take your ego out of it it's not about you it's about the song so how do we get how do i get you're always thinking how do i get the best out of this artist right now what is the way that i get and it's not in a manipulative way it's in a way of they need to trust you they need to feel comfortable with you so the job of a songwriter is actually quite intense and and pressure high pressure in a way because you might meet someone on a Tuesday at 12 and you need to make them comfortable enough with you.

19:54You need to make them like you. You need to get on and in a very genuine way, not a fake way. And you need to find some common ground. You need to be a chameleon sometimes because you could be in with different genres every day. And you need to be able to be someone that they will, you know, between the hours of 12 and six that you might have with them that day, spill their, tell you their deepest, darkest secrets. And sometimes that can take the first session. you can just, you know, really get on with someone in the chemist, she's there, or it might take a few sessions. And so ultimately, even if you don't get the song that day, you need to make them like you enough that they want to bring you back into their room.

20:29There needs to be a vibe and a dynamic. So your job as a songwriter is there's so much going on. That's why my book is called It's Not Just a Song. This is actually so much going on. There's so much going on. I'm just jumping in here. Sorry, I don't normally jump. I don't normally jump in as much as I do, but because you're saying so many little button points here that there's some things that are really jumping out of me. Does it help trying to take this question with as much as you can? Does it help being Irish in this? Yeah, I'm kind of wondering because I'm sort of thinking. Yeah, I don't.

21:01Tell me why. Because everybody loves Irish people. So from very young when I was, because I started doing this professionally at 17, I was walking into rooms with Americans. Walking into rooms. And just with not knowing anyone, almost like speed dating. Yes. Without the romantic side. And being Irish always broke the ice. And also growing up in a family where we could chat to anyone, we started singing songs anywhere we went, seeing my parents, you know, just talking to anyone. Like, you know what, Irish people will have a chat with anyone. It really served me well because social situations like that, I wasn't like, oh, I was very like, you know, yeah, what's going on?

21:42Let's have a chat. And also, I think what the Irishness that always for me broke the ice was being telling a funny story or, you know, coming in and being like, oh, I've just had this and being very almost then. I've always found that being Irish, 100 % break the ice and anywhere I would go, whether I was in, because I was, you know, traveling around a lot. That's breaking the ice, telling stories. That's what I'm hearing. That's what I was thinking. And making people laugh would disarm them. and even you know being vulnerable would disarm people if I was like I'm having a terrible day that would open the artist up or if they you know so I think all that Irishness and straight away people just love Irish people so I've never been in a room where it's always like oh I love Ireland I love Irish people so are you know all the people before me that have made this great name for Ireland really helped me especially in my first times in Hollywood of like walking into rooms it It was like, it was almost like being Irish was like the best calling card I had.

22:43You know what you're like in a way, right? And you know what you're like in a way? I don't know if anybody's ever called you this, right? Now, this is a compliment, right? I hope so. No, it is. But you're like a kind of a white witch. Do you know those kind of, it's a good witch. Do you know those ones? It's a good witch. Yeah, not the bad witch. I like that. I like that. It's like a white witch. So you're like, you're like, you kind of have a kind of a spell. You can cast a spell. You can receive a spell. you can understand the spell you're a kind of you deal in little bits of magic basically yes that's what your currency is I love that I don't take that that's what your currency is you're dealing in little nuggets of magic and little fairy dust but you know what my what I feel like it is though is like I just love music that much it's my passion for music like it's nothing that I you know do it's just that I just love music and I love making music and I have such a passion in the room and I like to bring good energy to the room.

23:40And I'm like, what is the best song we can write? Like, I have no other agenda other than just like having a great day with people and write a great song. Will you tell me an instance of a day where all of that came together for you? That you wrote, you had that kind of amazing day collaborating with somebody and something came out of it. And it was like, it kind of maybe summarized everything you're telling me now. I'd say In the Name of Love the Martin Garrix one because I actually was not in a good place I was broke I'd had hits I needed another I was singing in wedding bands in LA because my parents were like you're going to have to get the boat home we don't have you know I was just I had been up I'd been rich and then I was poor and I was you know not so hot and not so relevant and hit songwriter and I'd had hits and you know you're only as good as your last hit and all that stuff and the session had been cancelled on me that day with this producer and my publisher was like look ilsy is free and you've wanted to work with ilsy she's had her session cancelled you've had your session cancelled like let's get it together and for a second i was like oh i'm just really ready to quit this industry like did it but something in me was like no like i think this is going to be a good day just make it a good day and i and i got picked myself up off the floor as i like to call it creatives a lot of the time we're we're on the floor you know ready to quit because it is a roller coaster and i went to the session that day and I had the title in the name of love we'd written I'd written a song in the name of love seven years prior nothing like the end in the name of love obviously it's a U2 title so I'm not trying to say that I you know thought of it myself but a handy tip for songwriters titles are not copyrightable so we can all write a million halos we can write a CRO five years until she got the hit one so you can reuse titles anyway so I had that title and I thought I don't know something about that title today and I was and I needed this session to go well because I needed to just feel better about making music and when I'm depressed about making music and when my career isn't going so well I always go back to making music because the studio is the safest place for me that that's where it you know my love of music overrides any industry stuff that's stressing me out so I went in and we wrote the song on 45 minutes now and that's not in a bosa way of like we wrote a song on 45 minutes a hit but I had taken 10 000 hours to get to the skill level of having those songs are not written in 45 minutes they're years in the making and then it comes out in those 45 minutes and Ilse is such an amazing lyricist and I just started singing I was so depressed about the music industry she was depressed you know she was really down about a love interest that she was seeing everything she was saying was like was what I was feeling about the music industry, but I didn't say that.

26:20So I was vibing with her and I was going with her on this journey. But what ended up coming out was the two of us talking. She's talking about love. I'm talking about the music industry. And we wrote in the name of love in 45 minutes. And it was that like, you know, I'm doing all of this for you. What would you do for me? If I told you I was going to walk in the fire, are you going to do if I told you it's going to burn? Are you going to do that in the name of love? Like, what are you going to do for me? And so that was an amazingly magical moment where the energy, the vibe, we sang the BVs. It was like, in the name of love.

26:51And we were just like belting the song. And then fast forward to two years later and I'm at Coachella in the Sahara tent watching Martin Garrix and everybody singing along and it's been a big hit. Oh my God. That is incredible. That kind of end to the journey where a song like that ends up and everybody's singing it. Is everybody singing your song live, is that kind of a majorly peak moment when you see live a few thousand people or 10 ,000 people or whoever singing your song and knowing it, is that an amazingly moving experience for you? Yeah, every time. It never gets old. Even like one person, like it doesn't matter who it is.