Jonathon Swift – Ireland’s original satirist

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1:10Trading as HUM is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Coming up on this episode of the Mario Rosenstock Podcast. Swift was writing at a time when it was a dangerous profession. and if you wrote anything that was seen by the authorities as being seditious they would have no problem tying you up and you could be left there for a day or days and sometimes if you were really bad they'd cut your ears off you could end up in prison we're now in a time where people get cancelled they don't get tied up and have their ears cut off and all that sort of thing but you know they do in a kind of a more which is a form of excommunication true you know it's like a religious fatwa

1:54So I got an email a few weeks ago that started as follows. Hello, Mario. You're a great satirist. Woohoo! Thanks very much. Would you like to know more about the original and greatest Irish satirist, the most famous of them all, Jonathan Swift? The email went on to outline in detail the fascinating history of one of Ireland's most famous writers, the author of Gulliver's Travels, none other than Jonathan Swift. this book is hands down the most successful book by an Irish author of all time and interestingly it was full of digs at the monarchy colonialism and other injustices that Swift himself felt compelled to speak about in this and many other of his works but it was a very dangerous time to be anti-establishment and so he was never able to put his own name to his writing would you believe and what interested me was how in some parts of the world things haven't changed a bit even to day, including even in the US, where the Trump administration tries to shut down TV hosts that satirise him, to wit, Jimmy Kimmel recently, most recently.

2:55So we got in touch with the author of the email, a writer, performer and former political strategist called Jerry Mullins, and invited him to tell me more about this fascinating man, Jonathan Swift, the remarkable life he led, freedom of speech back then and today, and lots, lots more. He's after having a big feet of wine, big full bladder and someone wakes him up that night and says the royal palace is on fire. So he runs over and he extinguishes the fire by unleashing his fire hose and others pissing all over the Queen's palace and into her bedroom. And that was his little dig at Queen Anne.

3:30Basically what he was saying to the British authority was you've done everything bad to these Irish people. There's no great immoral leap in what you've already done in terms of stealing everything from them and humiliating them and starving them to go and eat their babies as well. You know, you've already entered that particular zone. It was like a human zoo and people on a Sunday afternoon would get dressed up and for a bit of entertainment go down and have a look at these people tied to the wall and scream and shout and all that sort of thing. And so Swift was chaplain there and he realised how it shouldn't be done.

3:59And then he comes over to Ireland and 30 years later when he's got all this money and he's doing up his will and all that sort of thing, he says, no, we're not going to have it like it was in London. We're going to do it different over here. Jerry, as I found out, is a fantastic storyteller and he's a mine of information on this fascinating subject. And I hope you enjoy our conversation, which is coming up very shortly, right after. Well, it's the film everybody's talking about, guys. Have you been to see it yet? Oh my God, everybody wants to see this one. It's the film biopic of 2026. One man who had it all.

4:36The fans. The millions. The moves. The hat. This is Michael. It's all very well for you, above and all in Dublin. But I'm standing up for the small meat of King Arvin. He came from nothing to rule a kingdom. JCB, easy as one, two, three. Rent it to you from me, JCB.

5:10A man who fought for his county and loved every village within it. Phoenix, Phoenix, it's gorgeous if you haven't seen it. Dingle has fungi, Killarney is nice, but there is one village. Take my advice, it's Phoenix, just Phoenix. Go there, Phoenix. A man who made a fortune. Don't stop till you get enough. Keep on with the cash. Don't stop. Don't stop till you get enough. Keep on with the cash. Don't stop. Don't stop till you get enough. And who fell out with his family to achieve his dream. Danny are you okay?

6:06Featuring a stunning duet with Micheal Martin I don't understand the way you think Saying it's your way and not mine Resignations and your silly speech Really just a waste of time Because it's mine Michael The dark gondol is mine Michael, I'm a lover, not a father Michael is Michael at his peak Darkness falls across the land The Calvin tax is close at hand But Michael's here with a bag of coal To save y 'all's house and save y 'all's soul One man against an entire government Because you're bad, you're bad, you know it You know you're bad, you're bad, you know it Michael, coming soon to a parish hall near you Hee hee

7:12and brand new comedy every week on the mario rosenstock podcast and get in touch with me mario rosenstock at gmail um at gmail.com um like jerry did and that's how he's actually on this podcast because he got in touch with me directly i read them all and i get back to most of them um so the weather's getting better folks the days are getting longer and you might want to be out there feeling good looking good and keeping track of your health and fitness and so you're in the market for some fitness gear wearables or beauty products you should know that hum has got you covered hum is a finance company who provide flexible payment solutions for customers some of ireland's most popular retailers they can help you make your purchases and pay back in bite-sized easy payments it really couldn't be easier and we're delighted on the mario rosenstock podcast and i'm delighted that hum have not only decided to get involved in podcasting but have chosen me this podcast to be their partner.

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8:36And just like you, thank you. So it's time to meet my special guest on this episode, Gerry Mullins, and find out about one of Ireland's most famous ever historical figures, Jonathan Swift. A very interesting figure indeed he was, way ahead of his time. So much so that even though he lived 300 years ago, he comes across like somebody that you might meet today. And indeed, a lot of the struggles that he faced around freedom of speech and speaking out against power also feel remarkably familiar to society today. I hope you enjoy. Gerry, welcome to the podcast and thank you very much for coming in.

9:08Well, thank you. The reason you're here is because, like I invite a lot of my listeners to freely send me an email at mariorosenstock at gmail.com and I read them all and I get back to the most of them. But I didn't get back to you in the first one you sent and you sent me another one going, listen, I know you haven't got back to me about this, so I'll take it. I don't know what I'll take it as, But anyway, if you have second thoughts, I went, oh, that's interesting now. And the subject matter that you wrote to me about was really interesting because it's about satire and it's about satirists.

9:40And of course, as you pointed out in your email, I'm a satirist and I work on radio and television and all that sort of stuff. And we might be interested. Would you be interested in talking, you said, about what would be the king of satire in this country? the original satirist, 300 plus years ago. His name was Jonathan Swift. Gerry, why should we be interested in Jonathan Swift and tell us a little bit about him? So, everyone has heard of Jonathan Swift, right? Everyone's heard of Gulliver's Travels. And we're all familiar with one part of Gulliver's Travels, which is where Gulliver arrives on the land of the Lilliputians, the little people, you know?

10:21And pretty much that's it. and we're kind of intimidated in the same way as we are about Samuel Beckett and various other people who we know are great writers but the last thing we want to do is sit down and read them you know and Swift is definitely in that category this old guy with a big old wig that used to appear in our£10 notes do you remember those? and so I got into him a couple of years ago I ended up writing a musical on Swift right called Savage Indignation and there you go I was playing in Holt's Castle on the 20th of June there you go we got the plug in Oh yeah still on We played in Armagh last month and over in St.

10:54Patrick's Cathedral just before Christmas and all that. So that's still going on, you know. And it's a great little show, if I say so myself. Is it a two-hour show? More like an hour and a half. No break? With no break, yeah. So I usually start off with an interview with a Swift scholar. Yeah. Usually Brendan Toomey. He's a Dr. Brendan Toomey from Trinity College. And then towards the end of the interview it gets interrupted because this guy at the back of the room starts giving out a bit of noise and who is it? Only Jonathan Swift back in the day. And is it all the wig and everything? The whole wig, the whole lot, giving out about the noise and giving out to me.

11:24And then it moves on from there and he starts to reminisce about his life. And next thing, his lady friend Stella appears. And because Swift had this long term lady friend named Stella. And then after a while, another lady appears. Her name is Vanessa. And really what the musical is about is about how and what happened when Stella and Vanessa found out about each other. Right. So there were three in this marriage. There were. And did you write the songs? Yes. Did you? Yeah. And does it have musical accompaniment? Beautiful musical accompaniment because I sat down with a guy called David Munro who is, I didn't know it at the time but he's really one of Ireland's top arrangers and composers.

12:02I only contacted him because I needed someone to score my songs, right? You know, put them out on paper, right? And this bloke, I had trained his daughter in football for three years and I just feel if I'd trained anyone's daughter for three years they owe me right and so I called him up one day and said look I've got a few songs here for music would you ever give me a hand writing them down I needed someone to put notes on the page And is the libretto or the words of the music is it old style or new style? I've tried to make it new style now some of it is old because I've tried to as much as possible take from their letters and their poems you know to try and make it authentic but the last thing you want is people sitting there as if it's a Shakespearean play listening to that old style of talking so it's very modern in other ways and also there's a couple little I think the word is anachronistic jokes or whatever you know stuff that brings you right up to modern day language you know Okay so tell us that's brilliant to hear this now but tell us and of course it's the 300th anniversary So 300th anniversary of Gulliver's Travels So to me we have lots of great writers in this country Yeats Wilde Beckett Shaw Shaw the whole lot right but who is the king of them all and in my view it's Swift because Swift particularly with Gulliver's Travel Swift is the most famous and the most influential of all the writers for the longest time you know perhaps not so much now but over the 300 year trajectory since he died he certainly has been the biggest name in Irish writing and Gulliver's Travels is the biggest book ever to have come from this island in terms of influence and in terms of fame so right around the world now so in other words it has more span than Ulysses.

13:50Oh, completely. Does it? Completely. Now, in some ways, it's an unfair comparison because a lot of... It's had longer time. It's had longer time, number one, but also, to a large extent, people have taken that one book. Gulliver's Travelers is four travels, four books, right? And in the first one, he's the giant and everyone else, the little people. Second one, he's the little person. They're all giants and the third one is a different thing and the fourth one is a different thing. So in reality, what's happened is that people have taken one book, the very first one, and made that into children movie and a children's book and all that sort of thing.

14:19But at the same time, in more libraries and in more bookstores around the world, you will find Gulliver's Travels more so than any other Irish book, more than any other Irish writer. So all the others pale into less significance. And so tell me more about why he's so important and his significance. And for example, the dangers of the time he lived in, in terms of being a satirist. so amazingly about Swift we you know obviously one of the most famous writers and yet in his lifetime hardly anything he ever wrote had his name on it hardly anything he wrote books pamphlets letters poems he was writing the whole time he was one of these people who would write every day for many hours a day he would write about politics he would write about love he would write about whatever a bit like Fintan O'Toole or something like that you know what I mean he was going Fintan would love that I'm the great satirist I am Jonathan Swift in Irish Times I'm a lily poot I'm the king king of the little people king of the little people I'm the king of the little people in the Irish Times they are little people and I am the great big master satirist well Fintan has a great scope he could write about politics he could write about the arts he could write about this and that and Swift before you go on and I want you to go on I just wanted to interject there briefly about Fintan because I've told him this myself right that the style of the way he writes his article I always read them because I find that if you turn his articles upside down it's easy to make a satirical comic sketch out of them What do you mean by upside down?

15:57He basically is showing you the seriousness of what he's saying Right I kind of try and take what he's saying and put it onto audio and I interpret what he's saying and make it an audio version which turns into perfect satire Is that right? Yeah So the thrust of his articles if you just get if you just get the thread of what he's saying through a lot of his articles there is an attempt by him I wouldn't sorry I'm being a bit mean to him now because he's a master writer completely yeah he is a master writer but he's not he's not a superb comedian but what he often has in his the thread of his sketch of his I even called it a sketch of his columns are the are the nub of a great comic idea and he he doesn't fully develop it but then I go no that's that's just perfect you just developed that one for my purposes but he goes on then to be much more serious in his column amazing yeah but I've told him this yeah and because I had him on the podcast twice and he definitely has a satirical start to what he's doing and I go that's perfect that's my sketch tomorrow I just turn that inside don't mention that just go all the way for that bit and just turn it upside down don't bother with the two serious bits at the end because I'm not trying to I'm unlike him I'm not trying to to proselytise to people.

17:16I just want to show people stuff. That's what a satirist, I think, should do. They should show, not tell. Very good. And what Fintan's duty is, as a columnist, is to tell and to opine and to proselytise and to polemicise. And mine is to kind of go, look at this, look at this, isn't that mad? And the audience should go, wow that is mad and it's true as well that's what you that's what I think so I've often fine I'll never be able to read his columns again the same way I almost think the two of you should team up and do something with a double act you know where he tries to introduce a serious topic with his way and you finish off the argument so go on anyway okay so Swift then so Swift was writing at a time when it was a dangerous profession and if you wrote anything that was seen by the authorities as being seditious they would have no problem tying you up, they'd call it pillaring you know, we still use that word now, you tie it to a pillar and you could be left there for a day or days and sometimes if you were really bad that cut your ears off you could end up in prison and so Swift knew that.

18:25Two of his books ended up in the courts here but he just didn't get convicted but even when it came to like Gulliver's Travels, he spent about five years writing it here in Ireland. He didn't publish it in Ireland, he went across to London to get a publisher and before he went he had someone transcribe the whole thing in their handwriting so it wasn't in Swift's handwriting if the document was found he goes over to his mate Alexander Pope in London you know the poet on our leaving oh on our leaving exactly a rape of the lock and things like that so he goes over to his mate Alexander Pope and says let's find a publisher so they settle on a guy called Benjamin Mott M-O-T-T-E and Pope had to wait until Swift was on his way back to Ireland Pope then in the dead of night in the dark of night left the first of the four books on the doorstep of Maud rang the bell in the darkness said, I'm after leaving you a great book there.

19:17Maud says, what do you want me to do with it? Pardon me. And Alexander Pope said, read it and I'll be back here exactly this time next week. If you like it, you're going to give me, I can't remember, was it 200 pounds or 300 pounds, something big anyway, and I'll give you the other three parts of it and you can publish it. So it was, obviously Maud thought he was mad, but of course he read the first book and went, this is it, I want this. But the thing was, we regarded it as being Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift that book did not exist the book was actually called Travels to Several Remote Parts of the World and the author was Lemuel Gulliver there was no sign of Swift's name on it and when you read into it you read he's got so many little jokes almost in every paragraph there's all these when I say jokes by the way little digs I should really say sometimes they're jokes sometimes they're just funny you know but other times he's getting digs in getting digs in left right and centre at the royalty at the government at people who he had a grudge against so for example one of the people who had pissed him off was Queen Anne the monarch in Britain basically he wanted to become a bishop in England and she kind of went no for various reasons she went no and he got banished back to Ireland he ended up in St Patrick's Cathedral who we kind of celebrate him now you know as being Dean of St Patrick's Cathedral he did not want that job he did not want to come back to this really impoverished nation he wanted to be in London where the action was.

20:39So he felt very let down. So when Gulliver goes to the land of the Lilliputs, he's after having a big feed of wine, big full bladder, and someone wakes him up that night and says the royal palace is on fire. So he runs over and the royal palace is on fire and he extinguishes the fire by unleashing his fire hose, in other words, pissing all over the Queen's palace and into her bedroom. And that was his little dig at Queen Anne. and of course the book then goes on that Gulliver is held for kind of a treasonous act because you're not allowed to piss into the Queen's bedroom and he saw that as being paralleled with his own life.

21:20He'd done a lot to serve the monarchy and serve the government and all that and then he felt let down. So there's all these little meanings in the book. Sometimes it's hard to pick up what they are or sometimes they're meanings that have been lost in time and all that but they're there all the time and when you read it you kind of have to get an edition that has notes at the back. It takes a while to read it because, you know... The references. The references, exactly. Because you're flipping back and forth. What does that mean? So, for example, in one of the voyages, the third one, it's the Flying Island of La Poochia.

21:53So it's kind of a science fiction book, right? You've got this flying island hovering over another island and the flying island, the one that's hovering is kind of controlling the ones down below. It's kind of similar to Britain controlling Ireland kind of thing, you know? And at one stage, the people revolted, right? And so it's a little city called Lindelino, right? And you're kind of going, okay, what's this all about? And it's the second city of the empire. Okay. And a giant river goes down through it. Well, it looks like Dublin, but you're kind of going, what's Lindelino? Lindelino. And you see, with Swift, he'd often bring in a Latin word.

22:33you know there might be a Latin translation or an anagram or something like that and you're kind of looking at Lindalino and you're going well it can't be it can't be an anagram because Lin is in there twice right? Lin da lino right? So and Latin there's no Latin translation but then when you look at it a bit longer you go Lin is in there twice twice Lin, Lin and Lin two Lin's, double double Lin, double Lin Oh boy! So he's got all these little code words and he's calling for a He talks about how the people of Lindelino rebelled and they'll rebel again and they'll kill the king. It almost calls on them to kill the king and all his government.

23:11And you're kind of reading this. And then you know why his name wasn't on the book. Treason. Yes. Sedition, treason, calling for rebellion and all that sort of thing. And actually that one paragraph got took, that one section got taken out by Mott. Mott couldn't publish that. It ended up in the Faulkner edition, which was about a decade later or something like that. So what kind of a man was he? Was he famous? Yes. he was. His career I mean he was a church man and then what happened was he ended up in London he was actually lobbying on behalf of the Church of Ireland, right the Anglican Church in Ireland.

23:43He was over to lobby for a more favourable tax treatment for the church in Ireland right. So he was over there in London and he starts hanging out with the big wigs right, literally the big wigs. And in those days the wits as they call them the kind of celebrated people in society all male of course, you know the educated, the politicians, the writers the journalists they would hang out in coffee houses and Swift was hanging out in one or two of the coffee houses meeting all the guys and sometimes they'd swap poetry and sometimes they'd write articles and all that sort of thing and he became known as the smartest man in the empire right so he was well known at that stage So there was a certain maybe Oscar Wilde like quality to him Yes He was able to pour forth he was able to be verbose and to talk Yes and be witty be witty He'd get along with a lot of different people and ultimately his ace, his calling card really was he was a great writer.

24:39So he got spotted by the government. He started off as a Whig and then ended up, Whig was a political party and then ended up as a conservative, went over to the Tory side and he got brought in there as effectively the spin doctor for the Tory government from about 1710 to about 1713. He was brought in by a guy called Harley who was effectively the Prime Minister and Swift was the spin doctor. He was the press advisor, the special advisor. All these jobs that are there right now, the Mara, you know. Mara. Yeah. Yeah, from Scrap Saturday. Yes, from Hawhey's time. I remember, I met him. Yeah. And that's what Swift was.

25:16So for a few years, he was top of the heap. Great. From an impoverished Dublin background. He was now hanging out with Lord this and Lord that and Sir this and all that sort of thing. All these people who had intergenerational wealth. he wasn't there because of his wealth he was there because of his brains He was obviously you know famous for writing Gulliver's Travels but he was also famous for writing this kind of pamphlet The Modest Proposal Yes Tell us about The Modest Proposal what was it? So The Modest Proposal is a call for cannibalism in Ireland and it it it was done with a straight face but we're back to the whole satire thing if you read it it it calls for it sets up the scene first of all it says look we have too many Irish babies too many people everywhere I look on the street you've got these women and this was at a time when the Irish population was a big population oh completely bigger than it is now much bigger so you're talking about upwards of 6 million people living in a country heading towards the famine yes but it's pre-famine I should say well I mentioned the famine earlier we're still about 140 years from the famine correct but there are many famines there are many famines before that correct So people were absolutely on their uppers You know they were very very poor People living in shacks And all sorts of very degraded situations And he came along with a straight face And said look We've too many people over here Too many babies And we've got the rich These fine families over here And the rich have got the money And you've got the babies So why not sell your babies to the rich And they would make a grand dinner I mean baby food I mean literally baby food As in Irish babies I have it here Like he says in the Models for People a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food whether stewed roasted baked or boiled and I make no doubt that it will equally serve as a fricassee or a ragu a ragu so did this cause scandal well it did I mean it's told in a straight with a straight face deadpan deadpan but I think the people certain people got it and certain people didn't and I think the people he was trying to protect and highlight I mean basically what he was saying to the British authorities was you've done everything bad to these Irish people.

27:29There's no great moral leap or immoral leap in what you've already done in terms of stealing everything from them and humiliating them and starving them. There's no great moral, immoral leap to go and eat their babies as well. You've already entered that particular zone. And so it was really for the authorities to kind of take note. Jesus, we're not doing the best over here. But I think that the Irish population in general, the people who had the babies, understood that this was a satire written on their behalf for their welfare. So are we to deduce from that then that he was a moral man, a person with a conscience, a person with a sense of social justice?

28:09I think so. I think social justice, yeah, I think so. A moral man, give me a second because there's a few different things in there. Go on, yeah. We know the three of us in the marriage. Yes, yes. There's two ladies going so you could argue that wasn't a very nice thing to be doing. But I think so. I think what happened was I think the longer he... He didn't want to be in Ireland. I've already said that. He just did not want to be here. Didn't want to be in Dublin. He hated the filth. He hated the attitude. He hated the fight. Oh, everything. What would he have spoken like, Gerry? Would a man like that have spoken like a man from London?

28:45A bit like it. He was definitely of Anglo-Irish stock, right? He was born in Dublin even though there's a question mark about his birth and his background and all that sort of thing. He ended up being educated in Kilkenny College, which is sometimes described as being the Eton of Ireland. Certainly at the time, it was a very, very posh education he got. Then went over to Trinity College, where some young people come out very well educated. Trinity College, Dublin. Dublin, yeah. And later on, he ended up in Oxford, all right. So because there was a bit of money in the background, he ended up getting a good education.

29:19That set him up very, very well for life. He then ended up in a house in England as kind of a secretary to a very aristocratic man. Came home, finished his priestly studies and then ended up back in London where he became this kind of press advisor type of chap. So you asked about the accent. Well, the one thing for sure was he didn't have a common Irish accent. He wasn't saying our Begara and all this other thing. And he wouldn't have barely spoken a word of Irish. but he wasn't necessarily uber posh England as well no I would say it would be some kind of an upper class Irish accent and probably you know the way Shane Ross

30:02it's that kind of thing yes well you know maybe I say there's a little bit of Irish in me but you know I generally talk like that you know it's very good Shane Ross you opened up but he went to school in England didn't he go to public school in England yes he did yes yes yes so there's that kind of thing but you also have a little bit of Irish in you as well you know I love the Irish and you say you say Irish rather than Irish that's true so there is that that kind of it's an Anglo-Irish West Brit it's an Anglo-Irish West Brit type of accent he would have had and I also sometimes think when people go over to London they develop kind of a London accent especially if they're operating in the upper echelons so I would say his accent changed a small bit when he went over in that direction was so excuse me sorry man of God well there's often a question mark about that.

30:48Of course he was a priest in the Anglican church and he was very loyal to the church and he did his duties there as dean and looked after the cathedral very well and all that sort of thing. But there's very, and he preached and all that sort of thing, but it's very, some people would even question if he was a Christian at all. There isn't a huge amount, let's say in his writings, he didn't write much about Christianity. He wrote sermons and stuff like that. No, it's just that I don't associate, I generally don't associate it's satirists and satirical people with a devout religious faith. Often they...

31:25Often they're the type of brain that they have. Just take the piss out of it, is it? Or question it. Yes. And take the piss out of it. Yeah. I mean, like, you look at somebody like even Ricky Gervais is quite satirical about this. You know, he questions... He's an atheist and he questions the whole idea of faith. Yes. And I mean, a satirist would easily point out one of the first things a satirist would point out would be how come everybody who believes in God happens by complete coincidence to be born in exactly the place that their God exists so like how come everybody that believes in Muhammad is actually in the place where Muhammad is supposed to be the God of and all of us people who believe in Jesus Christ we're all born over here a remarkable coincidence isn't it You know, so God just went, I'm choosing Ireland, little bits of America, bits of Germany and Sweden and all that.