Mixed Up: An Irish boy’s journey to belonging

0:00Coming up on this episode of the Mario Rosenstock podcast. Say casual racism You mean that it's It's sort of said In a jocular Or light hearted way Yeah But it's still racist Yeah I mean like The intent of it Is not to harm But the impact Is harmful Exactly Whereas over Like explicit racism Yeah The intent is to harm And the impact is harm as well So there's messing with you But it's cruel Yeah you know Like it's Ah sure You know Leon's black sure He'll be able to You know wrap that for us Or whatever Or like you know The choker box was a thing Like oh Leon you should be able To get that money Like you know what I mean Like you're on the box like, do you know what I mean?

0:33Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, very creative.

0:46For a young man in his early 30s, Leon Diop has already had a very full and eventful life. His father was from Senegal and his mother is Irish and Leon grew up in the 1990s in an Ireland that was still very much monocultural. He describes being the only brown boy in his school, and naturally that attracted a lot of attention, not all of it welcome. He experienced a lot of both overt and casual racism, and he describes the difference in our chat, as well as having a father who was an addict and a not very pleasant guy to have around. But as you're about to hear, Leon has grown up to be a resilient, successful, good-humoured and funny guy, who has managed to turn a lot of tough times into something more positive.

1:28He's the founder of the Black and Irish Advocacy Group He's a podcaster And he's the author of two books The latest of which is a memoir called Mixed Up An Irish Boy's Journey to Belonging I think you're going to find this chat Both fascinating and funny A group of all the kids Showed up on the fields that we were all playing on One of them singled me out And was like, what's your name? And I was like, I'm Leon And he's like, Leon, you're a black animal And that, for me, was such a sucker punch I had very curly hair at a huge afro you know a huge afro I was trying to straighten it you know so I'd get a mullet like the rest of the lads and then I was going to dye the bottom of a blonde good luck with that sweet lamb like it was that was going to be hard it was tough so you were trying to turn your afro into a mullet and dye the bottom of a blonde yeah how did that look it looked and smelled terrible you know whenever he didn't kind of want to have to deal with me he would just throw me into a dark room he would close the curtains he'd turn off the light you know he'd like don't turn this back on and then he'd slam the door shut do you know what I mean Did that affect you?

2:27Of course, yeah. I couldn't be able to dark for years. It was tough for the younger version of me. I don't think I'd change it because it's now given me the soft skill of resilience and stuff like that to be able to deal with what I'm dealing with now. My full chat with Leon Diop coming up in just a couple of minutes of time. But first, it's that special time of year, folks, when we give gifts and think about what's most important to us. Mariah Carey tells us constantly what she wants for Christmas. So we asked some well-known people what they want. How are you? Ray Darcy here. All I want for Christmas is for everyone to have a close look at what they're putting into their bodies and their mouths this Christmas.

3:08Make the right decisions, lads. So stay off the duck fat roasties. Opt for boiled care pinks instead with the skins on. Skins on. Swap that heavy bread stuffing and go for fibre-rich shredded cauliflower stuffing instead. And of course, don't go near the booze. It's a killer. It's a killer. It's a killer. Glass of Bailey's is like eating a triple pack of Mars bars. Deep fried. It's pure poison. But relax and have a lovely time. And don't forget to eat raw cake. Christmas. I'm sick of hearing about Christmas at the end of the day. Do me a favour. All I want for Christmas is for people to stop saying how adorable I was on the late, late toy show.

3:43You know, it's not the late, late Roy show. Stop saying it. I was there to keep an eye on things at the end of the day and make sure they run as they should. I turned up. It was my job. It's the least I could do. You know, I've been watching this thing for years and thought I'd need a bit of a skipper to knock it into shape. The lad guilty. Credit to gaffers. He's in absolute appalling shambles at the end of the day. Jesus. Northern. More than Northern guests. Just because you're from the North doesn't mean you get on the show. Get off the show. Get somebody decent on for a change. Go away. This is Michael O 'Leary.

4:17All I want for Christmas is a load of scobes on Ryanair flights to winter sun hellholes like Lanzarote and Shagaloof, filling their boots with overpriced vodka baggies and scratch cards. They think they might win a million. The only winner is yours truly, in power until 2036, at the earliest. So have yourselves a merry little Christmas and shut up. An exclusive new comedy on the Mario Rosenstock podcast each week. And just to tell you a couple of notes, for the Christmas, we're putting out a couple of my favourite podcasts over the Christmas to tide you over until the new year. We're coming back early in the new year, for which we have a very, I think, very, very interesting guest I'm delighted to share with you.

5:05But if you want to contact me in the meantime, of course, during the break, it's mariorosenstock at gmail.com about anything you want to talk about. and you can catch me on tour. Of course, I'm doing a mini tour in spring. I'm in Dean Crow Theatre, Mullingar Arts Centre, Lime Tree Theatre in Limerick and Black Box in Galway in the spring. I'm also in London on February 7th, my first ever London show. So if you know people over there, tell them to come along to the Shaw Theatre Saturday, February the 7th. Okay, Leon Diop is standing by and ready to go. He grew up in Tala in the 90s and started by describing what life was like for him back then.

5:47Most people in Tala are salt of the earth people. They want to get on with their life. They want to, you know, be safe, be happy, enjoy their lives and, you know, get on with things. And that's how I experience most people. You know, but unfortunately there was things that I had to experience that most other kids wouldn't. You know, and that was racism. You know, that was either overt racism. Where was that coming from? Was it coming from a particular age group or was it coming from a particular place? It was primarily coming from kids that were just slightly older than me. So maybe four or five years older than I was.

6:26So like I would have been kind of 9, 10, 11, 12 when I began noticing kids kind of treat me differently. And then my first experience of racism was when a group of all the kids showed up on a field that we were all playing on. you know, I just began tormenting us. Now they came over with the intention of, of tormenting us. But one of them singled me out and was like, what was your, like, what's your name? And I was like, I'm, I'm Leon. And he's like, Leon, you're a black animal. And that for me was just like such a sucker punch. Like it was like, uh, my skin color was being used as, as a means of, of attacking me, you know, and it's something I can't hide.

7:08Do you know what I mean? You know, it's something I can't, you know, put aside or whatever, you know. So that was difficult. And unfortunately, while most days didn't have racism, some days did. And what was your method of dealing with it? I mean, obviously, if you compare it, let's say, to bullying, right, which you've kind of compared to it there because you intimidated. I think there's not a layer. There's not a layer when you bring kind of race and ethnicity into things because, you know, it's things that you can't. it's something so obvious it's like a big target on you you know and it's it's like you are wondering then is are other people going to pick up on and are other people going to start treating you bad because of the color of your skin so that was that that was difficult at at the time to do and then of course it just led to a number of different identity issues do you know i mean in terms of not feeling irish enough you know or not being irish enough you know and i was associating kind of whiteness with Irishness.

8:08And that was, again, that was another problematic thing. So, yeah. So I suppose, is it fair to say then that when you're young and you feel targeted like that, one of your first instinct is I just want to fit in. Every kid just wants to fit in. You know, they just want to lay low, not be embarrassed, not be single day. That's right, teenagers get like that. Not be picked on. Yeah, teenagers are like that, aren't they? They just want to be part of the herd. they just want to be in you know that's and that and that was the thing i was never in yeah yeah once yeah you know so now i like look i had a core group of friends friends who i was in with you know like my friend sean or my friend shane like it didn't matter what i looked like or who i was to them i was their friend and they were my friends and they that that was the yeah the kind of main thing but with any other groups i associated with there was always something you know there was always like a bit of casual racism thrown into things whether if it was a kind of wider group of white people or if it was a wider group of black people there was you know the element of am I right in saying that when you say casual racism you mean that it's it's sort of said in a jocular or light hearted way yeah but it still it still has racist it is still racist yeah yeah I mean like it like the intent the intent of it is not to to harm but the impact is still harmful exactly whereas over like explicit racism yeah the intent is to harm and the impact is harm as well so there's messing with you but it's cruel at the same time.

9:32You know like it's ah sure you know Leon's Blackshirt he'll be able to you know rob that for us or whatever you know that kind of stuff or like you know the choker box was a thing like oh Leon you should be able to get that money like you know what I mean like you're on the box do you know what I mean I mean very creative you know if you don't if you don't laugh at these things you'll kind of cry I mean recently when you have a target they start coming up with new ways to hit the target I mean like you know because I run black and Irish now I get I get the odd bit trying on me here and there you know uh and often it's just your general slop do you know I mean it's your you're a black this or you're you know you're a monkey or whatever you know but someone sent me the n-word recently with the father over the eye okay and I was like at least you're incorporating the Irishness into it like yeah I mean like it was a you know uh I thought that was yeah you know uh a bit funny I haven't heard that one yeah you know so so yeah so they like you know i think at the end of the day you need to be able to uh one thing that's done for me i think is it's grown my resilience a lot you know and it's helped me with preparing me for the work that i'm doing now because i'm very kind of out there when it comes to like uh racist incidents kind of big public moments where race and ethnicity and kind of division and hatred are called into it, you know.

10:56When I'm speaking about these things, there's a lot of people that will turn, you know, on Black and Irish, which is the organisation that I run now, or on me. And I think going through those experiences definitely helped me in a way, you know. So while I look back and I'm like, damn, like that was, that was, it was tough for the younger version of me. I don't think I'd change it because it's now given me the soft skill of resilience and stuff like that to be able to deal with what I'm dealing with now. Your attempts to fit in were, I suppose, somewhat thwarted in a way by, well, you're smiling, but I don't know if you know where I'm going, but they were sort of thwarted in a way by the idea that your dad, your dad, he was a Senegalese dad, right?

11:44That's right. And your mum was Irish. Where's your mum from? Tala as well. She's Tala. Yeah, yeah. Right. And your dad is from Senegal, was from Senegal. Yeah, yeah. And your dad was from Senegal, but of course he was kind of a native, he looked like a native Senecalese. Yeah. He dressed like a native Seligese. So this was a source of embarrassment for you, wasn't it? Rocking up in Tala, what would he be dressed like? Yeah, I thought you were going a bit of a different route. What was the route you thought I was going a bit? The route I thought you were going was when I was like going out of my way to try and fit in.

12:10So I'd like do things like steal my mom's GHD hair straightener to try and straighten out my effort. you know which is you know it was a very difficult thing to do in the sense that you had curly hair I had very curly hair I had a huge afro a huge afro I was trying to straighten it you know so I'd get a mullet like the rest of the lads and then I was going to dye the bottom of a blonde good luck with that sweet lamb that was going to be hard it was tough so you were trying to turn your afro into a mullet and dye the bottom of a blonde yeah how did that look it looked and smelled terrible you know so I thought you were going to talk about how my attempts at fitting were thwarted by the strengths of GHC hair straighteners.

12:46Well, that's good. Well, yes, no, it was also it's worried by my father's... Paint a picture for me there. I mean, we're in the square on visitation and, you know, he would just rock up in these outfits that I'm like, what are you doing? Like any, any young teenager is always embarrassed by, I think, their parents, no matter what they do. You're telling your parents. Yeah, yeah. So... But if your dad rocks up in a pink dress... Pink dress is the way, like the only way I could describe it, like I'm like, I'm finished. My name's ruined. you know like I'm never going to recover from this you know he there was probably a little Robbie Keane running around there in Talagon who's your man in the pink dress yes little freak yeah no like probably you know or another day he wore like a t-shirt with like our faces on it your faces yeah me my brother and my sister his face on it and I'm just like what are you doing like just dressed normally you know like stop making this difficult for us and his accent as well his accent was was very strong it was very very thick accent you know so you describe like sorry I'm not going to do this now so go over there that's what I'm asking can you do the accent without taking the piss out of I'm not trying to take the piss I'm actually trying what is that accent he called Burger King like oh god I don't know if I'd do it justice now it was quite thick obviously it was like a French person who had learned to speak English but it wasn't it was like it's very difficult to describe it's not like French that you hear in France it's like African French I understand yeah I've heard it myself yeah yeah don't make me do it because I'm definitely not going to do it very like you know every syllable was over pronounced like called Burger King like you know like which for me was just like stop being so loud yeah and like just talk to me you know just like please you know so there was there was difficulties with that because I'd hear other people kind of like having a bit of a giggle about it whenever like Like, you know, or it was McDonald's.

14:45Like, there was no McDonald's. There was no L's at the end. You know, I'm like, please, you know what I mean? And it was always like the fast food restaurants, you know what I mean? Like, that you had to show. And another thing as well, actually. The worst places for you. The worst, you know what I mean? Like, his sneeze. Oh, yeah. Was so loud. Like, his sneeze was like, ah, Joe! And like, it would like, the whole, you know, the middle part of the square. It's called a Senegal sneeze. Sorry, that was a bad joke. It's okay, it's okay. So the whole middle part of the square would like stop as if like a bomb went off.

15:20Like it was... Okay. Yeah, like it was really, really loud. So the whole square would stop like a bomb went off and they're looking at the guy in the pink dress and saying, Bulgaga King. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not easy, not easy childhood. You were mortified, basically. Yeah, 100%. Just constantly embarrassed. Were your siblings mortified? I think they were a bit younger than me, so maybe they didn't pick up on it as much, you know. Did you ask him just chill. I always ask him to like, you know, stop speaking so loudly, you know, like whenever he was out in public, like he always had to take a phone call.

15:49Like, you know, we're with you for an hour a week. Can I please just be us, you know, for that hour? Now, like I didn't think about it at the time. I'm only saying that now. Yeah. But, you know, he would always be on the phone and it's always like 50 decibels higher than everything else that's happening around you, you know? So you're just sitting there like, oh God. And then you'd see your friends, you know, from school or whatever, they're coming into the square as well. And you're just like, please don't see me. Yeah. I remember one time sitting at McDonald's, eating with him. And all my friends just decided to like, come in and sit in the table behind us.

16:22And like, he didn't know who my friends are. Like, he didn't care. Do you know what I mean? Like, he just, he did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted, you know. So, yeah, that was difficult. You had a difficult relationship with him? I did. Yeah, I did. I did. I mean, like, look, he, he was someone who struggled with, with substance abuse. And when he didn't have those substances, he was quite a cold, you know, just mean character. Like just, just difficult. You know what I mean? Like moody, you know, that, that, that, that was quite difficult. Now on the other side, on the flip side of it, you know, if he did have a drink or a smoke, he was great, you know, in terms of, you know, wasn't as, moody like he could get a laugh at you like he could make some things funny but then it would go to the extremes where if he drank too much then all of a sudden it was like it was like it was a scary place for any young person any family to be in you know he was capable of getting very violent with us you know if we didn't do what he wanted you know or physically violent physically violent and what does that mean does that mean pushing or punching punching yeah hitting us throwing us into rooms and stuff like that you know he whenever he didn't kind of want to have to deal with me he would just throw me into a dark room yeah like emphasis on the dark and like he would close the curtain he'd turn off the light you know he'd like don't turn this back on and then he'd slam the door shut do you know what I mean yeah and like I was obviously very terrified and like I'd often you know have family members like opening up the door and going why is he in here on his own like turning on the light and stuff like that and me just being obviously very panicked and stuff like that Did that affect you?

18:19Of course yeah like I couldn't be out of the dark for years do you know what I mean like I'm a bit better with it now do you know what I mean but like you know if I'm my wife always complains I leave every single light in the house on no matter like whenever I leave my house and I look back at it I can see I've left all the lights upstairs on her and I don't know whether that's a no it is you know a response or whether that's yeah yeah but like every I always leave lights on and she's she's very upset about that yeah but it's great because I'm able to you know blame it on a trauma response and not being just lazy and stuff like that you know or just like complete airhead you know so I'm able to get away with it a little bit you know I wonder if there's something else actually I can I'd start thinking of things yeah you know just blame it all on the trauma yeah oh yeah okay so your dad had some substance abuse issues and he had some, he had some behavioral issues as well.

19:12Yeah. Yeah. And like he, the most difficult part of actually was seeing how he engaged with my mom and how, how much my mom was struggling with it. You know, that was the, that was the hard part. You know, I remember asking my mom for a new dad for Christmas. And that was, you know, obviously me just wanting her to be okay. You know, and, you know, I remember just being like, just leave him like he's just like you know we're very attached I've been very attached to your mum oh yeah of course like very very close do you know what I mean in terms of like I love her very much I wanted to be happy I wanted to you know be safe and stuff like that like most young people would want and she severed her ties with him there was a very violent incident while we were in school one day we got pulled pulled out of school brought her around to the house like everyone I know as an adult was there and I was like what so obviously my mum had been like I need people here to like keep me safe and stuff like that and then my dad was taken away by by the guards and then we were kind of whisked off then to Wicklow where my aunt Lisa lived and we stayed there for a few weeks while obviously things were happening in the background my mum was in the process of getting my father removed from the house and getting kind of restraints and stuff like that for him not to be able to to come near the house but he still like you know he my mom was really strong and courageous in terms of getting him out of the picture as in getting him out of the house and filing for that restraints of that he couldn't be there but he'd still mess with us he'd still turn up on the road he'd still sit on the wall of the house and stuff like that he'd still my mom came out of the house one day and saw that the gas box on the side of the house had been fiddled away and he'd always say things like whenever we would go on visitation to see him, he'd always mess up my mum being like, I'm going to take them to Senegal and you're never going to see them again.

21:12You know, stuff like that, you know, which was just really hard for her, you know. So, but again, you know, through it all, my mum has been this very kind of strong, courageous character who, you know, she had a model that she would die for her kids, but, you know, ultimately she lived for her kids and made sure that they were taken out of a very dangerous situation. Do you think your dad loved you? or did he love you in a peculiar way or do you think maybe he just was cold? This is something that I've battled with for a lot of my life. I don't know, to be honest. Presumably he never told you, did he?

21:48Yeah, like he, one memory that I have was when he was telling us that he was leaving to go to France and, you know, he was like, come here, I want to kiss you on the forehead. So he was like trying to grab the back of my head to kiss me on the forehead and i was like pulling away like no i don't want like i don't want to i don't want you to and stuff like that you know and like i saw this real like dejected look you know and like he gave up he didn't like pursue it do you know what i mean and uh and that for me was a moment where i was like okay maybe he actually did want to like show some like love or tenderness or or whatever you know um like again whenever he was in a good mood we'll call it like he was always able to have a laugh like if we tried to crack a joke he would laugh at it and stuff like that well to be honest I don't know I know that he was difficult and like that's what I do know when you know he would be mean to us I thought surely he couldn't love us if that's what he's willing to do to us you know so or surely he doesn't love my mom if that's what he's willing to do yeah you know what happened to him Leon?

23:03so subsequently like after he so he he moved to france um he rang my mom one day while he was in france and i was eavesdropping he was dropping on the conversation and i overheard that he had cancer and it was lung cancer and he smoked like an absolute chimney and so i knew it was real like you know although i was kind of like maybe he's messing maybe he's lying because you never know like you know with him and you know I knew he was unwell he'd call the house sorry he wouldn't call the house he'd call my aunt Brenda's house and we would have like Brenda would have to like yeah alright no worries put the phone down come up to us a lot of time now this is actually when he travelled to Senegal he'd have to ring Brenda's to come and get us but he was mostly in France and and he subsequently died in France died of lung cancer and my memory of that is just coming home from scale my man being like leon i have some news i need to tell you your father's dead and i had so many different kind of negative emotions swirling around the bone but i think in that moment i allowed myself to feel a bit of grief uh i'm like i was i got very upset you know like most people would um in that situation but very quickly snapped myself out of it and said no i'm not allowing myself to like feel this type of emotion for someone who'd caused me this much stress anxiety grief pain whatever it was you know over the course of my life you know and um i then suppressed it for i'd say the next 10 years you know so from the age of 16 to 26 i i only allowed myself to feel anger when i thought about I only allowed myself to feel frustration and be like, you know, and although that was, it was a coping mechanism, you know, but unfortunately it would like, jut out, that pain would jut out in different ways.

25:07Did that change after 10 years? It did. It changed because I allowed myself to sit down and feel the grief. I sat down and allowed myself to say, well, yeah, I gave myself a half an hour, you know, where I was like, you know, I'm going to deal with this. I think this is like during COVID. so we're all kind of locked in our houses and being forced to kind of you know deal with our demons and stuff like that you know and I was like right I'm going to deal with this you know and gave myself a half an hour and I think 90 minutes later I was still on the bed crying I was like what is why am I feeling like this do you know what I mean well it was like it was a relief it was a huge tension you know lifted off me which I think was was good okay so just roll it back slightly so you went to school did your leaving went to Maynooth what did you study in Maynooth studied psychology bit of a Shutter Island situation there you know they were kind of like yeah he's a psychology student but realistically I probably was you know a test subject for all the other students yeah do you know what I mean but no yeah I studied psychology I loved it I thought it was really really cool now I did psychology through science so I needed to do four science subjects before being able to go on and take psychology with two of those subjects.

26:23Yeah. And I failed nine of my 11 first year exams. Okay. I was just having too much fun, you know, like. Very fun, but, but what stands out here is that you became president of the Students' Union. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Towards, yeah, at the end of my degree. Yeah, yeah. I've gone through a number of different cycles in my life. You know, I remember traveling in to Maynooth one day after I'd gotten my kind of student handbook and going, oh, we have like a student president and stuff like that. I'd love to be that someday. and you know didn't really think about it you know failed my first year uh had a huge moment at the end of failing my first year that made me say i actually need to get my crap together and i need to you know be better and do better and stuff like that i can go back to that in a moment um and kind of you know got down into my studies and like began passing exams like i passed my a repeat year subsequently never failed an exam again which was which was good but while I was in college I got involved with the like events and promotions team loved having a bit of crack do you know what I mean loved now I was involved with lots of different student societies because they gave a free pizza do you know what I mean and I was a starving college student I was hungry do you know what I mean so like I was going to the Harry Potter Society meetings and the Disney Society do you know what I mean I was, it's it's true the whole, you know, film of Dumbo, do you know what I mean?

27:49If I had to, you know, because the Mazzonis was lovely. But I got to know lots of people and I got to see that I had a bit of a flair for the kind of social side of college. You know, not when I overdid it with like partying and stuff like that, but like bringing people together, making sure that they had a bit of fun, making sure that they were able to engage. Well, you come across, I mean, I must say, you come across as very relaxed kind of person yourself. You come across as laid back, right? Yeah. But also you're very smiley. It's a valium. But you are very smiley, though. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You kind of got a kind of half slagging personality.

28:26Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, what I want is that people feel, you know, good and relaxed, you know, whenever I'm trying to them. I don't want them to feel tense. I know what it's like to feel those things. I know what it's like to be. Do you consciously project that? I don't think so no I think it's just a like I think it's just a I understand what it's like to feel the other side of this or to feel the opposite end of this you know and want to make sure that people feel Absolutely so you became student union president now 2020 was a big year because George Floyd happened so this was this a pivotal moment for you?

28:57Oh it was a huge pivotal moment yeah I mean for those who don't remember exactly what happened give us a brief summation of what happened with George Floyd so George Floyd was a black man from minnesota who was apprehended at a store uh uh put in the back of a police car another police officer called derek shelvin turned up to the scene took him out of the police car and kneeled on his neck for over nine minutes uh and this was all captured on on video and it began circulating around the internet it happened on the 25th of may 2020 uh i came across it probably around the 27th um it was just going super super viral you know everyone was sharing it because we were all locked down at this time this is like the height of covid like everyone is like in their house on their phones all the time things were going super viral tiktok was going super viral blah blah blah you know so i remember seeing this video and just being so angry and so frustrated and so upset by what i'd seen you know literally watching a man lose his life in front of the world and he's like pleading for air and stuff like that you know which is it was just horrendous and I remember pacing up and down my back garden for hours on end in Minut at the time and just being like this is so horrendous this is so wrong and I decided to sit down and write a letter to George Floyd's parents and just write out kind of my thoughts and say like look what's happened like obviously say I'm so sorry for what's happened and you know it's a disgrace it's you know this person should be sent to jail and never be allowed to see sunlight again and at the end of it I was like I hope that this can be a catalyst for change in the world and that we can change things for for the better you know and not long after that I had the idea that I wanted to start something here I wanted to start something that showed that racism was in Ireland like people experience racism on a regular basis and you know because i'd seen it i'd seen racial uh violence i'd experienced it i'd seen kind of um slurs i'd been denied services i'd been followed by security when i went into a shop you know so i knew that he existed in ireland and i think the movement that was happening at the time post george floyd was very focused on black people's experiences in the U.S.

31:33and anti-black racism in the U.S. And a lot of people in Ireland were talking about, oh, sure, Jesus, isn't it great that we don't have that here? Like, and it's like, we do, you know? So that's what I decided. I spoke to a couple of friends and said, look, I have this idea. Do you want to help? And they were like, yeah, absolutely. So we started Black and Irish as an Instagram account on the 4th of June, 2020. And really, since then, And it's just taken on a life of its own. It's completely changed my life. You know, I went from working in recruitment to now being an advocate, you know, like properly, which is, you know, great.

32:12I feel like I found my calling and stuff like that, you know, which is, you know, a great thing for me. But obviously I think what it has done for our community. So what is Black and Irish? What is its concern and stuff? I know basically what it is, but what really does it do? Yeah, it's a non-profit that advocates for the black mixed race community in Ireland in a couple of different ways. So the challenge is racism wherever it arises. We do a lot of work with schools. We recognise that through the stories that we've told over the last five years, a lot of people experience overt racism in schools.

32:44Whether it's from other students or kind of systemic racism from teachers and feeling like they're being picked on and stuff. So we go into schools a lot. We talk about kind of the black experience in Ireland, talk about black history in Ireland as well, which is, you know, a really interesting topic and stuff like that. And then another thing that we try and do is try to build a, you know, cohesive black Irish community that can integrate into wider Irish society. So we do that by hosting events where people can come together, celebrate one another. you know we can have that natural kind of integration happen so different communities coming together and stuff When you say black and Irish what does that mean in terms of black so can I let's say Black can mean a lot of different things That's what I mean you tell me So like there's a couple of different ways of looking at the word black you can look at the term black as a political term which it was during the civil rights movement which incorporated a lot of different communities black, Indian Asian Asian communities it also incorporated queer people as well which was it was a movement do you know what I mean back during the civil rights movement now like for the work that we've been doing because of the experiences that we've had we've primarily focused on like black people of African descent you know and of you know of African descent is even a kind of narrowing word as well because there's many different ways that you can be black.

34:20You can be black and born in Africa. You can be black and born in Jamaica and in the Caribbean. You can be black and born in New Guinea. Yeah, exactly. In the US, you know, and stuff like that. So there's, there's a... Aboriginal. Yeah, you know, these, these are all, these are all communities that we're trying to serve as well. You know, and I, I've begun, I was on... That's why I asked you because, in a way, you don't want to get into a situation where you're exclusionary in any way. Yeah. You know what I... Which would be the ultimate irony. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Blacks only, please. Yeah.

34:53Sorry. What did I just say there? Blacks only. Right. No whites. No browns. Yeah. Forget browns either. That's it. And hold on. Who's this fella over here? Sorry, get in under that filter there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, go on. I love that meme. Do you know the family? I think it's like the family guy meme. And it's like the different shades of colours. Oh, yeah. And it's like, okay, not okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. So it's just reverse. Do you know what I mean? like if you want to come in yeah 100 % no but like obviously there's different things like that that happen in communities you've got colourism you know where it's like lighter shades of black people are often treated better you know and that's I understand that that's a real thing and then we have you know a huge there's kind of two things I've had three things that I've had to deal with I've had mixed race people be very very upset that I identify like as black or of black descent right because oftentimes they've had very negative experiences with their black heritage and they project that onto me, you know, and that I should be leaning more into my white side.

36:00That's one thing that I see. Another thing that I see is that... Are they basically saying you don't represent us? Yeah, yeah. I've mixed-race people saying that I don't represent them. I'm not trying to represent anyone. I'm trying to, you know, advocate for a community, you know, I'm trying to make life better for them you know but I've also seen you know messages or kind of like talking points of you know black people with two kind of black parents being like well he's mixed race how is he like what is he doing you know with black and Irish and stuff like that why is he doing it you know is that a form of sorry for being a bit reductionist but is that a form of being racist itself do you think I think it depends on your your definition of of racism if your definition of racism is that one race of people, race is a social construct, it's something that we as humans have just made up.

36:55But if it's that one race of people just treating another race badly, then yes, it would be a form of racism. But if it's the kind of the well-known understanding of racism, which is it incorporates power dynamics as well. like you know I can you know not be nice to you in the street because you're you know a white man but you can make sure that I don't come into this building because you're the one with the power do you know what I mean in these situations and power dynamics matter do you know what I mean in these situations and that is the kind of more kind of better understanding of of racism so it's not saying that like it's not saying that black people can't be racist this is a very nuanced piece and I do need to get this across properly but it's often that you know black people can discriminate against white people but being racist and holding power dynamics over them over other community groups regardless of whether it's white or Asian it's very uncommon because they don't hold power in the society you know so I do think that we need to be having more open conversations about this type of stuff about power dynamics about how they can arise about how they can be dealt with as well and how we can challenge them while making sure that everyone is is safe so I think these are yeah conversations that we need to to keep on having You're 31 Leon yeah so did you you've written two books Yes and what was the first book and when did you write it?

38:32So the first book was Black and Irish Legends, Trailblazers and Everyday Heroes it's a young adult book that came to be after a incredible publishing house reached out to us called Little Island Books and they were like, have you ever considered doing something for young adults? And at the time, I was looking at the Black and Irish accounts and I was seeing that less than 1 % of our followership was under 18. And I was like, well, we need to do something here. One of our core aims is going into schools, you know, and we're obviously not, you know, what we're doing there is not picking up enough traction.