Why I quit the corporate world to make a difference in the world - Dr John Travers

0:00Shop the Sherwin-Williams Labor Day sale and get 35 % off paints and stains August 28th through September 9th. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin-Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only. Some exclusions apply. See store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders. Coming up on this episode of the Mario Rosenstock podcast. And he said, you know, I picked up the phone to an agency and he said, when the phone was answered, the voice came on the phone and said, hi, this is Mother Teresa.

0:42And he literally was patched straight through. That was the person who picked up the phone on the other side. What? Yeah. So maybe fate was involved. So what a wonderful introduction. Ordinary. And I went, I met her once or twice, worked alongside her and her colleagues in the, what's now known as palliative care but there was known as Prem Dam, Place of Hope, also home for the dying and was exposed to such frailty, such inequity, such vulnerability and was moved by that that I made a promise that someday in some imperfect way I'd circle back and throw myself into helping people in those kind of situations.

1:31The word inspiring is thrown around a lot these days, but I have to say that the life that my guest on this episode has led and the brave and unconventional decisions he has made along the way is nothing short of, well, inspiring. John Travers studied engineering in UCD, and when he qualified, he had a well-paid job with a large corporate energy company to walk into. However, he had a few months off before that job started, and so he went off to India and did some volunteer work, and that changed everything. As you heard in the opening clip, that experience changed something in John. And even though he returned home and spent many years forging a successful career in the corporate and the startup world, he ultimately kept that promise he made to help the sick and the vulnerable.

2:09John returned to UCD to study medicine. And today, Dr. John Travers is a practicing GP who has dedicated his life to helping the most ill, frail and vulnerable members of Irish society. To me, that sense of purpose came a little bit later. I stumbled along and jangled through a bunch of activities that I enjoyed and did well at, but it wasn't until my late 30s that I found that passion and that vocation for helping other people, serving other people. So we all recognise frailty and people believe that it's inevitable and irreversible as we get older. I think that's the sense that we all have, but that is a myth.

2:47That is not the case. Frailty is a very reversible state of health. he was stopped by customs and they said what's in the bottle and he said water and the customs guy said are you sure and he said yes and the customs guy opened the bottle and took a swig and he said this is gin and the Irish priest said it's a miracle on average a doctor interrupts a patient after about 11 seconds and I think myself it's so important for patients to be able to tell their full story and to get all of the things on their chest out onto the table the truth is on average a patient or a person will complete their story in about 17 or 18 seconds.

3:25So just a few short seconds later you might have given them the ability to get it all out. John has just published a book about his time working as a doctor, the people he has met and treated and the impact they've had on him. It's called A Shot of Hope and he'll be telling me all about his fascinating story in just a couple of minutes time. But first, with the heatwave now in full force across Ireland, the yellow warnings are everywhere. Some well-known personalities are offering advice about how to cope with these crazy temperatures. First, Michael O 'Leary. Here we go again. First of all, I'm sick to the teeth of Irish people moaning and groaning about what now?

3:59The Irish heatwave? My advice for the great unwashed is to book a Ryanair flight as soon as possible to one of our wonderful European destinations to escape the overbearing Irish heatwave. Somewhere like, I don't know, Spain or Greece would be a welcome break from the searing heat. The initial stress about the weight of your luggage and the threat of astronomical additional charges will soon take your mind off that bothersome humidity outside. Experience the soothing darkness of the plane and the annoying person in the window seat beside you pulling down the blinds to sleep off the feet of 7am airport points they've downed.

4:32Finally, you can enjoy hours of cool air-conditioned ambience on the bus from the airport to the place you thought you were actually flying to. And then you can do it all again on the way home. Perfect! Actually, just stay on the feckin' plane all day! Well, yes, indeed, as President of Ireland, I have found in recent years that owning a sprawling historic pile and acres of garden helps immensely when the temperatures go doolally. I generally retire to the north wing of the Orus, where the marble panelling and lack of direct sunlight through the ten-foot windows offers some much-needed respite from the searing heat.

5:11Yes. Hello there, Ivan Yates here. And Mark Cooper. When things get a little too hot in the studio, Matt kindly fans me with a large palm leaf as I lie on the ground in a light kimono. There you go. He also whispers soothingly to me to calm me down sweet nothings when I get a little hot under the collar about the greens and those nutjob independents and whatnot. Whack on. And you can become a subscriber to the Paths to Power podcast. Now. Matt will come to your home and do the same for you. It's only£7.99 a month, but hurry. Offer ends soon. When they've gone, they've gone. Gone. I can't get that image of Ivan Yates in a light kimono out of my head.

6:01So thanks to Patrick for putting that into my brain, which won't leave for the next few hours anyway. And if you want to contact me personally, it's mariorosenstock at gmail.com. suggestions for guests suggestions for sketches compliments constructive criticism anything you want and please tell one other person about this podcast and of course my thanks to our sponsor Deluxe Bathrooms their summer sizzler sale has been extended until Sunday July 13th up to 70 % off Europe's biggest bathroom brands transform your bathroom for less upgrade your bathroom it doesn't have to be expensive why not capitalise on these amazing offers while they last you can easily transform your bathroom into what you've always dreamed of.

6:42You'll find many fantastic offers across Deluxe Bathrooms, extensive range of premium bathroom products and exclusive tiles. They have a huge selection of bathroom and kitchen tiles from the world's leading tile manufacturers in Spain and Italy. That's Deluxe Bathrooms, Ireland's premium bathroom and tile retailer. If you're dreaming of a bathroom that combines luxury, functionality and style, look no further. They're in Dundalk Retail Park and Eastgate Retail Park. Little Island Cork. And the Summer Sizzler sale ends July 13th this Sunday. Get on down there. So let's cross over now to the Go Loud podcast studio to meet my special guest, Dr.

7:19John Travers. For a relatively young man, he has already lived an extraordinary life and you're about to hear all about it. But although he is relatively young, he looks far younger than he actually is. And I couldn't help but remark that before we kicked off the conversation. So I'm sitting here in front of a man who looks like a student. And I mean like an undergraduate student. He looks about 26 years of age and his name is Dr. John Travers. John, welcome to Mario Rosenstock's podcast. Thanks, Mario. Delighted to be here. What age are you? I'm ancient. I'm in my early 50s. You are. And I'm serious.

7:50You absolutely look near 20s. I'm not joking. You look in your late 20s. Thanks a million. Well, I have my genes to thank for that, I reckon. And you cycled in here, I notice, and you're slim as a whippet and all that. That helps too, yeah. And I suppose knowing a little bit about the story you're going to tell me, a kind of quote came to mind. And one of my favourite comedians is Jim Carrey. And Jim Carrey made a great speech at a university sort of graduation ceremony. And one of the things he said was his dad wanted to be a comedian and he could have been a great comedian, but he copped out and he became an accountant.

8:29And he said that taught him one thing. He said, go for something in your life that you want to do, that you love doing. Go for what you love doing because after all, you might fail at your second option. I remember hearing that and being moved by it and I agree completely. He's also in a great movie called Yes Man. Yes. And I often feel like that sometimes because so many opportunities do present themselves and I know Dermot Whelan talked about the importance of saying no sometimes and the liberation around that. But sometimes it's good to say yes too and see what unfolds and Jim Carrey is an inspiration for that too in his comedy.

9:05Yeah, following your passion is extremely important and having a sense of purpose in life. And to me, that sense of purpose came a little bit later. I stumbled along and jangled through a bunch of activities that I enjoyed and did well at, but it wasn't until my late 30s that I found that passion and that vocation for helping other people, serving other people. and I decided to do that through the means of studying medicine and working as a medic. But before that, I certainly had an interesting run at a few things as well. Okay, and tell us about that. What did you start as? Well, Mario, the first thing I did in StudyWives was engineering.

9:43So I learned how to solve problems in the world around us and build bridges and design semiconductor chips and so on. And it was a very conventional choice because I was good at those subjects in school. but I had always had this kind of interest in social justice from a young age. And in fact, the first thing I did after I studied engineering was went to Calcutta, currently known as Kolkata, to work in a place called the home of the dying. Sounds a bit extreme, but it was a really rich experience, very fulfilling and rewarding. So why did you go there? So this is, you had studied engineering in UCD.

10:21You went to work then in the corporate sector. You went to work for Shell? Yeah, I had a plum job off the back of engineering. I had the job sorted and they said to me, if you want to take some time before you start, feel free. So I said, I'll take six months. And I thought to myself, what will I do with that time? And as I say, during school and from a young age, I'd always had an interest in inequities, people finding it hard to survive in their circumstances. Is this just looking at the world around you or seeing the news or had you been struck by a particular book or a documentary or had your parents inculcated it into you?

10:54Had your dad or mum been a protester or an activist or a hippy-dippy kid? Or had they, you know, where did it come from? Did you stumble across the film Gandhi and went, you know, whatever? No, great prompts. But like my parents were very caring people and they taught us the value and the importance of caring for others. So that was definitely part of it. And in school, I did a lot of work with say the Vincent de Paul and worked with children who were struggling in school, helping them in their homework clubs after school, things like that in other schools in the city centre. Went to school in the city centre, saw a lot of deprivation.

11:33Just getting mugged several times on my way home from school count. You know, you get exposed to the challenges and the difficulties in a very real way. Probably a little bit of a sensitive kid as well and just very sensitive and empathetic to people around me. Did you ever feel drawn to the priesthood? I didn't. No, no, I didn't. But interestingly enough, I've made, one of my best friends is a priest, Ciarán, and it was he who put in the call to Calcutta. Because I said to him, you know, I'm really interested in doing some volunteer work. And he said, leave it with me. And a few weeks later, I came back and he said, well, I've made a few calls.

12:08You can head off to Croatia soon after the war had finished with the Red Cross. Or you can do something, I think, in Dublin. Or you can go to Calcutta. I put a call in there. And he said, you know, I picked up the phone to an agency. It was actually the Sisters of Charity. And he said, when the phone was answered, the voice came on the phone and said, Hi, this is Mother Teresa. And he literally was patched straight through. That was the person who picked up the phone on the other side. What? Yeah. So maybe fate was involved. so what a wonderful introduction and I went I met her once or twice worked alongside her and her colleagues in the what's now known as palliative care but there was known as Prem Dam place of hope also home for the dying and was exposed to such frailty such inequity such vulnerability and was moved by that that I made a promise I made a promise that someday in some imperfect way I'd circle back and throw myself into helping people in those kind of situations.

13:11Were you obviously emotionally moved by this? Or was it just cerebrally moved? I think a bit of both. I mean, as an early 20s young guy, fairly confident, looking forward to the opportunities that the world might present, I kind of took it in my stride in a slightly naive, little bit unassuming way. You know, when you're that age, you just absorb everything you see. You're a witness to the world around you. So I wasn't deeply emotionally moved or anything, but I was impacted in the sense that it was eye opening. And it caused emotions such as empathy, but also a sort of a gentle anger, a sense that revolution was required.

14:00So you talk about parents being hippies or protesters. They weren't. their wonderful, caring, but led conventional careers and lives and in their own ways. But I'm not here to describe who they are or try to judge their activities. But certainly that awoke in me, that experience awoke in me a bit of protest. Even though I've worked in very conventional ways and act very conventionally, definitely finding a peaceful way to overthrow systems that are inequitable, unfair, is very much part of my DNA now. So you came from, obviously, a very relatively prosperous part of the world to work in Calcutta.

14:44So tell me about your pastiche of memories from Calcutta. You know, just being greeted by an explosion of colour and sound and smells and heat getting off the plane. One of the first people I met when I got out of the taxi and, of course, the taxi driver said, no no there's no set fee even though I had paid at the airport and you know having to pay twice but that's okay a little boy aged 8 met me on the curb when I got out of the taxi at the place where I was arriving to and he said I'm Raj let me help you and he guided me to where I was going and he was clearly a boy who'd lived on the streets was quite thin emaciated and he wasn't really looking for anything I put my hand in my bag to get an apple which I you know brought from Dublin and he said no no no money I don't want anything um I just you know he was literally there to help um and he later convinced me to buy some milk so that that's moving in itself people who are so um have such little access to resources and and so on and yet just he had this calm contentment and willingness to to support and help people he met um and I got to know him gradually over my time there um and towards the end and the the book that I wrote describes this anecdote towards the end a whole area of shanty houses corrugated iron dwellings were razed to the ground by several bulldozers with no notice to the people living there the authorities just wanted to shift an entire shanty town from one area to another and I met Raj afterwards and he said you know my home's gone and I said Raj what will you do will you be okay and he said I have my mother I have my brother and they have me we'll begin again And he was so grounded and rooted through the bare feet on the hot clay he was standing on.

16:38And I felt this sense of equanimity. And that's an amazing thing to witness. And all of the stories in the book that I wrote try to capture that spirit of resilience that he personified in an amazing way. And so you stayed for six months? I was there for the best part of two months actually because I did some other things in that six month break travelled across America coast to coast with a great friend so it was a time of adventure and then succumbed to the golden handcuffs of the corporate career So after having this revelatory experience you did go back into the corporate career for a while Yeah I suppose I hadn't started that job I had that job waiting for me out of college and I guess at that age it's your first shot at independence you need to make money you need to find your feet in the world I had the job waiting and I felt the right thing to do the sensible thing to do was to start it and see how it went and of course it was also expressing everything that I'd done in engineering I kind of wanted to practice that and be good at what I'd studied so you know that experience in Calcutta although I'd made that promise planted that seed it didn't necessarily need to be immediate to follow through and in fact in fairness Mario I actually to some mild shame I kind of forgot the promise, as you do when you throw yourself back into the comfort of the Western world and all of the comforts around us.

18:02And just ploughed through the corporate world, you know, scrambled up a ladder that was presented and did my best. Worked hard, worked long hours, travelled, was in the Netherlands, the US, London. Had a great career, did some really interesting things. You did an MBA in Harvard? Yeah. As a Masters in Business Administration? Exactly, yeah. Two-year full-time course, really privileged to go there. I was out on a summer J1 back as an engineer and walked through the campus and looked around and I said I will never go here because it's just this ivory tower it's this amazing place that's such a reputation and like I had very ordinary existence at that stage and lo and behold five years later just applied on a whim and they liked the essays that I wrote and the things that I had done and they gave me a place I was absolutely shocked Did you write about volunteerism?

18:51Yeah one of the things I did because they're looking for acts of leadership, I suppose, and taking the initiative. And that environment is very good at bringing an eclectic group of people together who teach each other. Everybody brings something different to the table in those classes and then contributes experiences that are educational to other people. So I guess they liked some of that, as well as other things I'd done. And you worked for McKinsey as well, a corporate consulting firm, a famous consulting firm. Yeah, they're a very good consulting firm, very disciplined, hardworking environment, solving problems for big corporates.

19:25And countries. And countries. I helped the Department of Health in Tanzania, for example, on their healthcare policy. That was another exposure. That was a not-for-profit piece of work. Another exposure to that world that copper fastened kind of the interest in that space, yeah. So you've had this business career. What age would you have been around this time there now? After the MBA in Harvard and after working for Shell and all this? Late 20s, early 30s. Late 20s, early 30s. And then set up three clean energy businesses in quick succession one after. As one does, of course. So why not? Like, you know, again, yes, the yes man mentality.

19:58And so did you do those on your own or with other people as in partners? Always with teams. I was the founding CEO of three companies and had teams and supporters around me. And the first one was invited into it, in fairness, by others and led it. And they all went well and they were getting bigger and more successful. But I was commuting Monday to Thursday night, Fridays in airports all over the place from London to Leicester to Copenhagen to Houston and realising this is not a sustainable way of life. Your way of life. That's what I was doing. Yeah, I was enjoying it. And, you know, there was something good in creating solutions for the energy crisis and coming up with cleaner alternatives to the fossil fuels that we're all addicted to.

20:42So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the business aspects. But, you know, continued to volunteer in my spare time. weekends in a place that did equine therapy for children in touch with the law and children with special needs. Equine therapy? Yeah, I know. Horse therapy. What is that? It's an fancy word. It's basically a beautiful environment in Wicklow called Festina Lente where children with special needs and maybe who have divergent personalities and so on, they are put in touch with these strong but gentle animals. and they have an amazing connection with the horses who are non-judgmental, who treat them as they are.

21:24And the children, all of their worries and their tensions unfurl in the presence of these amazing animals. And so I was there mucking out and saddling up and helping the kids and enjoying that. And then I spent, I know this sounds kind of ridiculous, but I spent a summer holiday in Ghana. I went out on spec. a friend had advised it was a great place they'd done volunteer work I know it sounds a bit over the top but anyway Ryanair are now flying to Ghana two weeks put your feet up and shut up well it was great I arrived at the airport there was there was another guy talk about priests like there was a guy he had a bottle of clear liquid and he was stopped by customs and they said what's in the bottle?

22:14And he said, water. And the customs guy said, are you sure? And he said, yes. And the customs guy opened the bottle and took a swig and he said, this is gin. And the Irish priest said, it's a miracle. It's been transformed. So I had some fun experiences. Ended up working in a hospital and the stories that I listened to from the people there were so moving and honest and resonated with that calling to work in that environment and help people in need that I made a decision at point to say, look, I've enjoyed this corporate activity and it's been my major focus and the minor focus has been this really enjoyable volunteer work.

22:57Why don't I switch them in my life, in my late 30s? This is the move. Amazing time of your life as well. I suppose your late 30s is a time where you have potentially a lot of experience, all your vigour, and yet although with a lot of experience you have your whole life still ahead of you. For sure. Especially if you're healthy. Yes. And so it's a nexus point in your life where you can make an important decision. Yes. And you did. You decided to return full time to being a helper, a carer of people. But in, again, typical you, a kind of almost an alpha way of doing it. What did you do? Yeah, and I'm very not alpha.

23:38as friends and family will say for sure very far from it but anyway I decided how would you make impact in that area well let's do it in a structured way I went back to study medicine because I could bring yeah I could bring tools and techniques and look I'm very How many years did you study medicine? Well the graduate entry is a four year course it's really three and a half because you start in September finish in May and that felt like a really good way to bring knowledge and tools to what I wanted to do I don't think I could have done the six year course with people straight out of school. Everybody in my course had studied or worked before.

24:15So I was sort of surrounded by like minded people. And so four years and then what? Then you do a year internship where you're learning the ropes. Now in your early 40s? Yeah. Yeah. I had my first daughter. Born days before my first. How are you making a living? Do you mind me asking while you were studying? I'm not. I'm. I've stopped taking in income for four plus years. Did you have a bit of savings? Had savings from the previous work. Used them and kind of went back to basics. I took out a blank sheet of paper for all of this Mario I suppose and kind of started again and I appreciate there's a sense of privilege in being able to do that not from a material point of view but in the generation that we live in like a generation ago this would have been mad stuff but now life allows that and the country we live allows that and I suppose backing yourself allows that too in saying I'm going to hopefully land on my feet but at the same time life is way too short for subscribing to something you're not into that you're not passionate about and we owe it to ourselves and our family and the people we love to do something that we have a sense of purpose about whether it pays or not you know yeah you need to put bread on the table but this is the ultimate goal for all of us to find that passion.

25:38As I've grown up as well I mean I've always found and I've heard other people listen to other people talking about it and if you do what you love doing and you're drawn to it and you are motivated and driven by it and it's almost as if you have to do it. It's compulsive. A living will find its way to you. Now it may be great medium or lowish living but a living will find its way and whatever living that way is it will fulfil its main purpose to keep you engaged, totally engaged with what you're doing. And in the moment, in the present, doing what you do, not thinking about, oh, I can't wait. You know this kind of world we live in of like, it's Wednesday, it's the hump of the week, only 2.2 days to Friday where you can just forget about all your troubles and then it'll be Monday again and then it'll be four days from Friday and then we can dream of our holidays, two weeks in Tarmalinos.

26:29And everybody's dreaming of getting away from it instead of being in it. In the moment, yeah. Just being in your life. And then they're going, and then there's a macrocosmic level of that when they go, now I can't wait till I'm 65 and to get out on that golf course. Day one, they drop dead from a heart attack. Why? Because, you know, they've lost their purpose in life. They didn't even know it, but they've lost their purpose. You should never retire. But there's no such thing as retiring. The word retire shouldn't even exist in the language. You should continue to do what excites and interests you till the end of your life.

26:56Yeah. I remember watching John Gielgud pick up an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor when he was 95, walked up to the podium, 95 years of age. And people all the time now are doing this more and more. You must be motivated and driven by what you do. In your case, it's a beautiful thing to see a person motivated by watching, by social justice and wanting better conditions for other people. You became a doctor. What branch of medicine did you... I've gone into general medicine, so a general practitioner, effectively, which means you must know something about everything. And it's a specialty in its own right.

27:37It made sense for me because it allowed me to work and live in the community. And also at the stage I was at, going into, say, cardiology or neurology would be a much longer training path, in fairness. And I just felt, you know, be sensible. And did you use your medical, was it your intention? And have you used your medical degree to expand your volunteerism, to go around the place? Yeah, I have. Tell us about those stories. Well, again, without sort of lauding it or anything, like I just was drawn to work in a walking clinic for people experiencing homelessness here in Dublin City Centre. I was drawn to work with international protection applicants, asylum seekers also here in Dublin and Ireland.

28:19But then I also do normal GP work, if I can call it that. and I teach in Trinity and I teach some of the work I've done on building resilience and reversing frailty in older people who also represent sometimes a vulnerable group and people experiencing homelessness. So there's a little bit of a diversity there in the areas I work in. I'll ask you about those then. I think I just read a little bit about you and you were one of the early proponents of a lot of a high protein diet and strength exercising for people who are getting older. Yes. This is very important for people who are ageing. We're all ageing, but people who are advanced ageing, isn't it?

28:58Tell us why. Well, look, there's a huge sense of hope here because I think since the beginning of time, humans understand what it is to be frail. Thousands of years ago, there was this adage, see how the frail tree is overturned in the wind. And I think that perfectly captures the sense of vulnerability, what it is to be frail. You know that line from Patrick Cavaney says, every old man reminds me of my father. Yes, I do. It's beautiful. It's poignant and quite moving. But it also speaks to the universal nature of what frailty is, because we don't see, it's not that we are mistaken to see someone we know, but we recognise the body language of frailty, that stoop, the tentative gait, the dependence on a stick potentially.