Would Bruce Springsteen make it big today? (and more great insights from a hit songwriter)

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0:32Thanks to HUM. Finance made easy when you shop tech, electrical, appliances, kitchens and much more. Flexify Europe Limited. Trading as HUM is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Coming up on this episode of the Mario Rosenstock Podcast. People used to use their ears and their own taste and numbers didn't matter. Like if someone saw Amy Winehouse playing in a pub, they wouldn't need to go, well, what's her numbers on TikTok? And I don't like that because for me, if I hear someone that's an incredible singer and I hear their songs, I don't care how many numbers they have on TikTok or Instagram.

1:11I'm going to work with them.

1:21I'm a sucker for a great conversation about music and songwriting, and it's rarely a short conversation when I have one. So when I sat down to record an episode of the podcast with Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter Ruthann Cunningham, it turned into two episodes of conversations out on this podcast. Ruthann has written songs for some of the world's biggest performers, including Niall Horan, Britney Spears, Westlife, Martin Garrix, and One Direction. She has so many great stories to share and so much to say about the music industry and how it all works. We played out part one of our conversation on the last episode and this week we bring you the rest.

1:52Ruthann and I talk about the role social media plays in the modern industry and why she's not too happy about it at all. She tells me how things work when it comes to royalties. How do you get paid? How songwriters get paid? We talk about why a legend like Bruce Springsteen wouldn't be a success if he started out today and lots more. There's not one person in a suit going, she's a star. He's a star. That doesn't matter anymore. It's like the public will decide and people are deciding who they want to be their stars. Jeff Buckley commercially flopped. Bruce Springsteen's first three albums flopped, but he's Bruce Springsteen, right?

2:25So if Bruce Springsteen was first coming out now, he would have been dropped after that first album because it flopped. Whereas back then, they believed in him and it was like, okay, we're going to try another one. There's amazing ones like It's Not Who You Know, It's Who You Avoid. There's another one from Steph Jones who wrote Espresso saying, don't be an arsehole, just be a nice person. And there's loads of gems of these amazing pieces of advice. Part two of this great conversation with Ruthann Cunningham coming up shortly, right after. I was away in Rome for a few days and when I came back, I couldn't even go on the M50 to get home because of the fuel protesters.

3:02This is what everybody's talking about at the moment. Even my hotline is devoted to the views about it. You've reached the Mario Rosenstock fuel protester hotline. Please leave a message after the tone. Hello, Rosenstock. Get your message out to these pinko liberal listeners of yours. I have no time for these fuel protesters. I stocked up on a load of fuel at great price before all this kicked off, by the way. So if motorists want to head out to their nearest airport, I will sort you out. Now, it's aviation fuel granted, so costs of 475 euro per half litre. But if you fill up, you get five Ryanair scratch cards and a panini included.

3:42Okay, half price. Now shut up and stop protesting. Hello, Mario. This is Pascal Donoghue calling you from Washington, D.C. I'm watching the coverage of the protests from my new home here. I'm feeling very, very sorry for everyone involved. Obviously, I would have liked to be in a position to negotiate and mediate myself, but that no longer remains a course of action available for me. I understand the different issues and why it is so divisive, and I can clearly see the point of each side of the divide. But I'll tell you something for nothing now. If I'm at home in North Dublin, I'd be getting into me bleeding car and driving straight over to the nearest blockade and knocking seven shite out of these assholes with a knuckle duster and a baseball cap and lifting them out of it.

4:34How dare they behave like that? Micheal Martin's talking tough right now, but these lads only understand action. I would have started it out in seconds, but hopefully we can do something more civilised.

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5:46And now they're here for the Mario Rosenstock podcast. Thank you, Hum, for coming on board. So it's time for the second part of my fascinating chat with one of Ireland's big singer-songwriters, Ruth Anne Cunningham. In this half, we chatted a lot more about the modern-day music industry and how it all works, starting with the role that social media now plays. What do you think of the impact of social media on the picking process? The idea that talent can emerge now through the. So, for example, you know, the classic is not about a person, a woman or a guy or a girl. They can't knock on the door.

6:20They don't get in. They do get in, but then they're told they're not good enough. The other people tell them they get ultimately refused by everybody. They put something up online and they find their home there. Then everybody starts going. This person is brilliant. What do you think and what do you think of that? Do you think it's been a democratization? I think that it's good and bad. So I'm kind of both. I think social media is incredible. I think like for me, I was that. You know, no one would sign me because they were like, she's a songwriter. They just want me to write the hits for everyone else.

6:54And the people made the vow go. And now it's almost at a billion views on TikTok. And it's in thousands of weddings. And, you know, so I've gotten to do amazing things because that song and I've been able to do that. I mean, I was with the indie label, but I've never, never been with a major because it's like, well, you didn't believe in it. So, you know, I'm not going to sign with you now. But what I think is incredible is that there's no, there's not one person in a suit going, she's a star. He's a star. That doesn't matter anymore. It's like the public will decide and the people are deciding who they want to be their stars.

7:33And I think famously Simon Cowell said he never would have, he never didn't get the Billie Eilish thing. And it's like, how would you not get that? And I know so many worked close with Simon that said to me one time, oh, yeah, I, you know, I had Bruno in to write songs for Leona Lewis. I never thought he was a star. I never would have signed him. So those type of people in those powerful positions, they don't get to say anymore. but for us it's it's it's patently ridiculous that a 55 year old man and should be deciding who is that 55 year old men all over the world are deciding 55 year old men with with jeans up to their nipples are deciding who the new 22 year old girl is but back in the 90s they had the money and whoever had the money to invest yeah got to pick who they who they wanted to invest i know i'm saying it's ridiculous though yeah it was oh yeah ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous but But, and sometimes they get it right.

8:26Sometimes they've gotten it right on their pick, you know, and sometimes it's, they've had to spend a lot of money to get the person to the star status. You know, it's the investment that then gets that person in front of everyone because you used to have TV and radio and that was it. Shove them down their throats, I don't know if they'll be big. But now, now that's not enough anymore. It's community, it's building. So anyone can make it. I think that's amazing. I think that, you know, Teddy Swim's blowing up online first. than like I think people being able to have their own audiences. I love the idea of an artist having their own audience.

8:59I might not know that artist, but they're selling out shows. Correct. That's like everyone should be able to find their audience and play to them and have a career. Same with comedy, Ruthann. I mean, like God almighty, right? So I had the, after like, you know, I had the absolute honor of being able to play the three arena last year, right? And I kind of looked up and I was looking up the three arena and MCD were looking at all the artists that were playing the three arena that year and they went, you're beside them. And I went, I was looking at all the artists and I was going, wow, Jimmy Carr's playing the three arena and like, look, Ricky Gervais on the night before me, right?

9:35That's amazing. But hold on, hold on, hold on. And then I went, who's this fucking dope on three days before me? And I went, I've never heard of any of these guys. And that's because they've made their name in America online and everything. And they're huge and they're sold out in the three arena. So you're right, let's play to your audience. Find your audience. So find your audience and places. So I love that. I love that anyone has skin in the game. You can't count anybody out. Anybody can make it at any point. Love that. Now, where it does get, with your question, is that what I don't like about it is that people used to use their ears and their own taste.

10:15And numbers didn't matter. Like if someone saw Amy Winehouse playing in a pub, they would they wouldn't need to go well what's her numbers on tiktok what's her and and i don't like that because for me if i hear someone that's an incredible singer and i hear their songs i don't care how many numbers they have on tiktok or instagram i'm gonna work with them but i don't like sometimes now and we all do it like you know you'll go i love that song and people will instantly go to or they're looking through tiktok and they'll only watch the videos with the most views because they think well society is telling me this is the strongest one because that one and and and brands and everyone will go what are the numbers what are the numbers what are the numbers what are the numbers and numbers will make influence someone to think differently and go oh but she only has you know 200 you know she only has that amount of followers so she mustn't be that good and so i don't like that value has become what the numbers are and because i don't agree with that like i said jeff buckley commercially flopped bruce springsteen's first three albums flopped but he's bruce springsteen right so if back in the if bruce springsteen was first coming out now he would have been dropped after that first album because it flopped whereas back then they believed in him it was like okay we're gonna try another one we'll try another one you know so it's like i don't like that the numbers now will make investors go all right we're pulling it because sometimes it takes time no doubt took 10 years before they did don't speak and the and the anr knew that and said i believe in you guys but you need to tour you need experience and then we'll start releasing and they're frustrated but he believed in them so it's like but nowadays you put a song on tiktok if it doesn't go within two weeks the label move on and they go that's not a hit we're moving on and that's just not true because sometimes you know people might not be seeing it there's a lot of noise now it needs to write like for me with some songs I've gotten sync placements I've had songs come out flop and then at the right movie scene the right moment for the song um the song goes so I'm like so it was never the song's problem so for me I don't like that's the one drawback is that sometimes now we're putting and even as artists ourselves the song comes out if we put up a piece of content and it doesn't do well we think it's the song and I don't like that because I don't believe that I understand you I understand very interesting I don't want good value to me now here's another thing I mean I suppose I started by saying imagine all the geniuses we didn't get to discover in the 70s, 60s, 80s and 90s all the geniuses who we've never heard of who were out there because they either they were never allowed in the door or they gave up or they tried a little bit but they got stopped or they never even got onto vinyl or cassette because they were never even given the budget to make a first record can you imagine all the geniuses we didn't ever get to meet and I I worry about that now because I go Tom York would not be on TikTok being like this is the song of the song like he it's he would never so are we gonna miss some new geniuses I don't know you know because some some people who are amazing artists are not good at social media they're not good they're you know they come out they sing their song and they blow you away but they might not be good at that other part and these days you have to be you have to be in order it's it's the main way to market your music so i do worry about that sometimes on social media as well that we might be missing the person in their room who's literally like a genius savant and isn't getting to be seen because they're not yeah you know it's like what i'm saying to you it's like it's like that thing of like um she's a genius well i've never heard of her yeah well she is a genius like i mean that song she's written three of these things and by any measure that's they're just amazing well look why haven't i never heard of her so she mustn't be a genius and that's of course when the commodification of art where basically art is turned into numbers and art and ultimately money and you're kind of going hang on it just isn't you know it just isn't like that and even the the landscape has changed so much like even radio like not to be bad on radio radio used to break records now radio won't won't like now it's so interesting especially from a songwriting perspective in our perspective radio is the last piece now they won't play your song until it's going they won't take a chance and go i like it like jewel was played by accident or something on some show and it ended up that's how it went and and so but now because it's like well you have to play these songs that are doing well these have to be played because these are already on spotify doing well instead of djs going i really like this song I want to play it I'm gonna I'm gonna take now you're on to something you're on to something because I mean one of my best friends who died years ago Tony Fenton the great Tony Fenton the DJ Tony was one of those old school DJs a bit like Ian where Ian Dempsey where they can actually listen to a song they're not musicians it's a really amazing it's amazing it's an amazing um career sorry it's an amazing job these things these things called DJs yeah a real DJ where they're not musicians.

15:18Like Ian does not play a musical instrument. Tony did never play a musical instrument. Tony cannot sing. Ian can sing like a little bit like karaoke or in a bar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they can sit in a room, listen to a song for the first time and have a very good idea if they think that's a good song. And I am musical and I have pitch and everything and I can, I have creative person, but I can do that. I can't do that. and I remember Tony sending me a song and it was Future Islands and it was called Seasons Seasons Change and I remember hearing the first thing and seeing your man doing his funny dance and I'm going Tony that's bollocks and he's going nah dude that's a hit and I remember a few weeks later it became a hit and he knew it he kind of knew it he had a feel for what a hit felt like do you know that kind of thing yeah and you know we've had great Irish years like Dave Fanning is and was amazing at knowing that and doing that.

16:14But now you see, here's where it's different these days. Now a DJ or a playlisting editor will like get a song in, maybe listen to it, but they will look for numbers. And they'll go, what's it doing on Spotify? Where is it in the charts? Has it charted? And instead of closing their eyes and listening and going, I believe in that record. I think that's a smash. And that's something that's a bit of a shame but um you know there's still amazing music being made and even from Ireland right now we're in such an amazing music moment yeah we are back and we're in we've got Kingfisher and Amble and Seamat and great artists um but I do sometimes go I wish they should dig in a bit more there's loads of amazing Irish artists out there and I think everyone should dig in a little bit more and just use their ears like they used to do back in the day and go I like this i'm gonna play this and and just and and the thing you're saying why don't you do it why don't you do it ruth ann why don't you dig in a little bit more and just become that become the the the record company the label and the almost that's your label what what those people have is just great taste that's what i call great taste you know just great ear for great song and great taste when i'm older i've always said i'd love to you know have a label or have be a manager or something like that um because especially for irish artists and i'm working with a lot of irish artists at the moment you know i've been with lyra and yes you know i'm working with a new artist called sinead ashioka who i think is literally incredible yeah sinead ashioka okay she's amazing and so yeah i i i yeah i had lyra on my podcast and she was um i'll tell you one thing about lyra actually she had that kind of little star quality in terms of her particular star quality was her energy her vivacity um so she had that she had that kind of um she had a kind of a charisma party charisma she can come into a room and she has a lot of fucking energy yeah hilarious yeah really funny and a big personality is what i'm trying to say she had a really big personality yeah so i i just want to be in writing with all these amazing incredible artists and and writing more hits hopefully and having more songs in the world and my favorite thing is people not always knowing that I've written something and it being on the radio.

18:37It could even be my voice. You know, I've had dance records out on Irish radio and people don't know it's me singing, but it's me singing. You know, so I kind of love that. What do you think of Taylor Swift? I mean, I mean, she is something else really because she seems to, I mean, you could, you'd probably know way, you obviously know way more about her, but on the cursory sort of, the way I see her on documentaries and everything, the way it comes across is that she has her hands around everything. She's the one that's coming up with the, she's coming up with the idea the emotion she's the song doctor and the ideas the merchant she's she is yeah she's a bit of a she's a she's a genius as well like she is she's an incredible incredible incredible songwriter like for me taylor is like one of the best songwriters you know she's she will go down as one of the best songwriters ever i think you know with that you know along with ed sheeran along with you know those lists of like paul mccartney elton john Carole King you know when we look back Taylor will be on that list and as will Ed Sheeran and as will Ray I think Ray will be on that list I think there's yeah and Amy Winehouse yeah I do think that you know and Taylor Taylor's been doing it for so long and for her to just keep up that type of level it's compulsive she seems to have a compulsive need to write yeah I think but it's probably because like when you're a songwriter it's just in your veins like you're gonna write forever you just need to get it out it's therapy almost it's how she it's how she processes things how i process it's like you you almost like even when you know i have had my children and i've had taken breaks to have to i'm still like breastfeeding the baby and writing a song in my bed and like you know it's how i it's it's it's definitely her therapy in a way and it's mine you know it's it's how we process.

20:26It's how we show up in the world. It's breathing. It's breathing almost for you. It's like a breathing thing. Again, the sketch stuff, when I was about, when I started doing this, when I was about 28, about a year into it, my brain started changing and I started, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do it. I had to hardwire my brain basically into going every single thing you see in your life is potentially a sketch. That is literally what I say to people. You have to live to write. It's one of my like Like biggest quotes you have to live to write. Every conversation, and it's the same with comedy, you know, every conversation you have could be a song.

20:59Anything anyone says. Someone could come into the session with a chocolate juice and you end up writing juicy chocolate. Like you just, anything can be the song. And so you have to stay open to it all. You've got to be open. The song is floating and you just need to, and you need to just be open to it and it's going to fall on your back. You are 100 % right. And that's exactly, I remember Keith Richards said that as well. I remember they were in an interview with Keith Richards and they were saying, how do you and Mick Jagger like write the songs? And Keith was there. No, man, we don't. I don't.

21:31You know, man, there's no I don't write any songs. What do you mean? Man, the songs are out there, man. They just come. You just got it. You got to be on the right wavelength. So he's just like you just got to be in tune. And some days you are in tune and some days you're not. Sometimes sometimes you're like you're in that place where you're listening to things happening and you're feeling things. And you're, I suppose, receptive would be a nice word. And other days you're too busy and you've got shitty things on your mind. Like, you know, what do I need for dinner or all that stuff? So it's very, very interesting, the whole creative process.

22:04Is there a song out there that you go, I don't, I wish I had written that. That's the one. One that you didn't write that you go, Christ.

22:16There's so many songs like that. like I every day I'm like I really like as in one that like just that I grew up loving like it's hard for me to pick a favorite song one what did you grow up loving one that I wish I wrote was love is a losing game Amy Winehouse I just think it's just incredible more recently taste by Sabrina Carpenter I just love that song my and my my ex-boyfriend wrote it John, right? Like my ex read that. Oh my God. We've written One Direction. So like we're still friends. He was at my wedding. Like we're good. And I'm so proud of him. But when I heard that, I was like, oh, it's just so good.

22:57It's such a great concept. And you said, I remember at the beginning when you were talking to me and you mentioned, you mentioned great artists when you were young, the parents, your parents listening to them. And you mentioned Carole King. And I was, Yes, Carole King. But it's too late, baby, Maybe now it's too late. And that was. I'll tell you what. Go on. The whole album I wish I wrote. Tapestry. Tapestry. Yeah. Fuck sake. And James Taylor, you know. James Taylor, Fire and Rain. Yeah. Is one I wish I wrote. And Fleetwood Mac, the entire Rumours album. I mean, Dreams, Landslide. Like, I wish I wrote all them songs.

23:33And the Jeff Buckley, Grace. I'm just like, that song. Every time I listen to it, it takes me on this journey. It feels like about five songs in one. I'll tell you great. I'll tell you a great song. Love it, you should have come over. Wish I wrote that. I'll tell you a great one because we just did the, you know, we did this thing, which was a huge, big success on Today FM there in the last month. The 100 greatest Irish songs of all time. And it reached out there. It got a lot of, it got a lot of things. So, I mean, there was like Christy Moore and everything and Grace and the Wolf Tones were on and everything.

24:01The boys are back in town. You're really going back, you know. But kind of high up in the situation, you know, you had a good few Cranberries and a bit of Sinead. And, you know, Mandinka was a great song that was up there, you know, lovely, lovely. What about a song to introduce yourself to the world almost? Like that song, you know. I love that song. And I actually predicted that Zombie was going to win. Did you? Yeah, when we did the three arena, we did the three arena with Hot Press and they were talking about backstage and I said Zombie's going to win. Zombie was number one, wasn't it? Zombie was number one.

24:37One of my songs I wrote when Niall got on there, Slow Hands was in the top. It was in the top 100. It did. So I got one. Because I was like, I hope I got one. Even in the top 100, because you see, you didn't see what I saw, which was, I saw songs between 100 and 400. And 400, wow. And you're just basically going, are you saying this song is number 380? I mean, there were some amazing songs in the 300s. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so anybody in the top 100 is an amazing thing. I'm glad as an Irish songwriter I got in there. super work super work Ruth one of the ones that I love and it was Cranberry's Dreams and the reason I loved it was because obviously it's her voice and obviously it's her vibe and her idea and it's she was singing about what it's like to fall in love for the first time and it's of course that's that can only happen to you once you can fall in love many times but no first time no only once and she sings about what it's like falling in love but what's beautiful about the song is the arrangement she sings it twice absolutely one as one voice and the other as the alternative voice and it's like as if there's two people inside her talking to each other it's like as if she's having this internal dialogue talking about it it's just yeah really extraordinary piece of work oh just stunning absolutely stunning and we did a version as Irish women in harmony and just even getting to, just even getting into the bones of it and restructuring and rearranging it and trying to get into her head, like into their head of how they did.

26:22I mean, it's a masterpiece. Like the Cranberry stuff is, you know, linger, like the strings and the, it just absolutely beautiful and, you know, some of the best Irish music of all time. I wanted to ask you a business question because I haven't read your book yet, but it's in the title, it's in the chapters. So one of the things, I'll take it by autobiographical. So one of the things I had to do was, in 2005, I had the Christmas Irish number one single. And it was called, I think I better leave right now. And it was me as Roy Keane singing, I think I better leave right now when he left Manchester United.

26:59Yeah, I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was number one. But before we got to number one, we had to discuss with the publisher, right? Because we had to get the rights. and we had to get them really quick. And we said there'd be no chance of getting it unless we said we're doing it for a special charity. So we did it for charity and the publisher said, okay, so Mario's not going to take all the money for this. And I went, no, I'm not going to take the money. I want to just get this song out there because it's Roy Keane, but we'll do it for this charity. And the publisher was kind enough to give us the publishing rights.

27:29Okay. Right. So what a lot of people don't understand is that when you hear a singer singing a song on the radio, they're often not getting all the money. The money is through publishing and the person who wrote the song and the people who wrote the song kind of are rightfully regarded as the great people behind this song. Yeah, the rights holders. So my question is, how does it work out? Let's say I'm Ruthann. Well, you're Ruthann. So you're Ruthann and you go, I got a song called He Lied to Me and I've written it all and I actually have the chorus as well. And here it is actually. And here's me doing the demo.

28:10And then they go, well, Ruthann, this is a fucking stone cold classic. My friend, Chapel Rowan wants this song. Now, how does that work out? So there's different, in my book, I talk about all these scenarios and I go into it in detail. So it works all different ways. If you're in with an artist, so say if I'm in with Niall or I'm in with John Legend or people I've written songs with right we just split it equally or you know if and when you say equally would you would you then be allowed to say 50 50 if yeah if we've written the song together in the room together and you so there have been things where you and Niall can write a song and Niall and you agree we're going to go 50 50 on this yeah me John anyone I've written with right because we've written the song together say if there's also been scenarios where you know an artist you might say hey i've got this song it's missing like a verse or it needs a bridge or it needs some tweaks so they bring me in on it a little bit after the fact and i help them finish it or i add something to it whatever i wouldn't take equal in that scenario no i would take what i think is the fair contribution for what i did so i've been on songs i've written where i have 10 i've been on songs where i've written 90 what about if they offered you a fee what if they offered you uh a hundred grand you You don't do fees.

29:25No, no, no. You don't do a fee. Well, now we're getting into a whole different thing, but you also can get a fee, but you always have to retain publishing because that's the main revenue for a songwriter is the publishing. So if you've written, it's intellectual property. So if you've written a song, you need to always have royalties and that's how you mainly would get paid. So you never should be bought out for that. So basically you discuss splits. So if you and me go in to write a song today, we say we're hearing a song, we're 50-50. if we write the song from scratch. If I sit down at the piano and I sing you a verse and a chorus, technically I've come to you with this fully formed idea.

30:02So you might write a verse with me. I'll cut you in a little bit. We'll discuss and that's negotiable. And there might be also scenarios which I've had where the DJ comes in, hears the song and then adds a track to it and they come in and they take a percentage. So it's case by case. It's always different. It's never the same. And yeah, so publishing is always negotiated case by case. Your song is, if your song was on an album in 2003, let's say, and the album was the number one album in the world, you would earn a lot of money. Back in, before streaming, before streaming, when there was physical copies, CDs, vinyls, tapes, everything.

30:40Yes, there was a lot of money to be made from the physical selling. That's what I'm saying. So there's not as much money now to be made from selling records. Yes, from streaming. so okay I'll try this is all in my book as well but there are two sides of revenue for a song there's the master side and the publishing side the publishing is the songwriters right so the people who wrote the song the master side is the people who own the master and that's the recording of the song so if you me record a song today and we record it in your house you're the master owner because we recorded it in your house so essentially you own it if we recorded it in my studio I own the studio, I'm the master owner.

31:17If a label have an artist and they pay for me for their artist to come to my studio and record, they own the master. OK. And then what happens is, is that on the to the master side is for that recording of that song. OK. The sound recording. And that's where the artist gets paid. The label get paid. The publishing side is for the publishing, the song writing. Right. So producers normally get paid from the master. The artist gets paid from the master so if i vocal a song and i'm the vocalist i get on the master side if i write it and i sing it i get the publishing side and the master side the label don't get any of the publishing side usually because they just get the master side right so just to explain so back in the day there was a lot more money because there was physicals being sold which was like 21.99 or 15.99 and radio was a good money maker still because it's about a dollar or a pound or a euro per play for songwriters right that pound per play say euro per play has to be split between all the songwriters so four of us write a song we're splitting a pound four ways right just this might be complicated but in my book it's very well done in a simple way so just to break it down for you right now in streaming world and deals were done with the labels that songwriters didn't get to have any say in where the labels did a deal with the streaming now the labels are obviously going to want the master to earn more because that's their stake in the game so basically right now as it stands the a million streams so if you put out a song and it streams about a million times the publishing is worth about 400 pounds euro i'm going to do pounds because that's the speakers that i know and the for real for for certain 400 pounds right the master side of the same record is 4 000 so that pay gap is like so multiplied by 10 basically yeah so the label and the art the label side the master side of the record is going to make 10 times what the publishing side makes so if you go up to 10 million you 4 000 for the publishing 40 000 for the master and so you can see there's a massive pay gap there so that's and that 400 pounds needs to be split between all the songwriters so if there's four of us we get a hundred pounds each whereas the label often own 80 of that master and the artist earns 20 so and the producer will take about three or four percent of that 20 of the artist 20 now at the moment we're fighting for songwriters to now get master points so at the moment i request on all songs i write that i have a master point which is one point on the record so that I'm also earning from the master side because the streaming side revenue can be so low.

34:00Yeah. Here's one thing I would wonder about because records have disappeared, physical records have disappeared. Yes. And because all bands and all artists now are turning their attention towards live performance. So for example, an artist, instead of doing one tour, or sorry, instead of doing, instead of an artist doing a tour every four years, an artist will now tour every year right let's say yes and i'm one and i'm wondering should there not be a kind of an idea whereby the off the the songwriters of those songs are cut in towards a little bit of that revenue even though it's live performance because they are they've just replaced selling music with selling out stadiums and the songwriter song is still being used but not getting paid yeah like it's same with like merch a lot of our lyrics are used for merch or you know we should i think you know we should get a cut of some of the merch that has our lyrics on it and sometimes for me as well like a song that i might write for a dj could up his pay packet because if it's a massive hit he then goes from getting 200 grand an hour to 500 grand an hour correct and we don't so yeah so you know i don't think that'll ever happen but that's why i think cutting writers into the master is the fairest way to kind of combat that and song fees and everything so in my book i talk about the new industry standard which is what we're trying to do yes and it is happening very interesting and so yeah it's it's all in my book that people can oh very interesting and i mean your book looks like an amazing read and i mean just on that that that royalties thing i remember uh back to one of our old friends there dolly parton i remember she said um do you remember elvis wanted i will always love you yes and she they told her so elvis will be taking 50 percent of this and she went no no he won't and they went no this is a deal breaker dolly and she went well the deal is broken then so i'm not doing the deal and she said she really regrets that elvis never sang i will always love you but she said three um it you know whitney did it in the end and of course that's why she's on whitney was on her christmas card list every year because she made many for no publishing many millions from from from i will always love you with me is that in that scenario this is what I always want people to remember Whitney was the singer one of the best singers of of all time Whitney was not a songwriter she's always said she's not a songwriter and but and she was okay with that and I think that it's okay to be a great singer and and to have Dolly Parton like you know and I think some days sometimes these days people want to be part of it all even if that's not their song suit and for me I'm like Whitney did I will always have you she didn't write it she won a Grammy for it but she guess what she got all that master money though with the label so it's like you'll still like everyone needs to just you know you don't have to take from the songwriters you can still all you know we can all win correct so yeah one of the biggest comedians of the 20th century was called bob hope and he never wrote a joke in his life there you go there you go and even garth brooks you know he always just took the best songs and i think there's no shame in that you know he's still garth brooks there's always there's always Jackson can write thriller, you know.

37:09Ron Temperton wrote thriller and no one cares. I mean, Michael Jackson's particular genius is bloody Michael Jackson. It doesn't have to write everything as well. So I want to reel out a couple of your chapters here. Chapter 1, The 10 ,000 Hours. Chapter 2, Songwriter Speed Dating. Chapter 3, Top 10 Rules of Hitmaking. Chapter 5, The Psychology of a Writing Room. Chapter 6, The Art of Staying Inspired. Chapter 8, Sampling. Chapter 10, Bad Deals versus Good Deals. chapter 11 how do we get paid music royalties chapter 12 the best piece of advice i ever got can you say a bit of that so i interviewed some of the best and biggest songwriters in the world and artists for this book so i interviewed everyone from like dan wilson who's semi-sonic so he wrote someone like you with the dell he's he's the lead singer of semi-sonic so he wrote closing time like he's legendary and and i also interviewed uh amy allen who is the top songwriter right now she wrote a you know um apathe espresso all the screen of carbon stuff she's like the biggest songwriter in the world right now she won the grammy for songwriter of the year and others like that are just all just at the top of their game lauren christie who wrote all the avril levine records and they all tell stories throughout the book about how they wrote certain songs so in the book there's interludes and the interludes are all song stories about how from the songwriter's perspective how these songs came about and they're so interesting and i love doing the interviews because as a music fan, I got to hear all these amazing stories.