Alex Murdaugh Crimes, Jodi Arias Trial, "Bad Vegan" Deep Dive - Megyn's "True Crime" Mega-Episode

27:09I could not believe it, but if you go back more than 100 years to the Civil War, Alec's great-great-grandfather, so Randolph Sr.'s father, was an officer in the Southern Army, and so was Eddie's great-great-grandfather, and they were brothers. Wow. His great-great-grandfather was named Lazarus Murdoch. He was what they call a fire eater. So he was an especially virulent anti-union. He made these incredible speeches that got picked up by national media and actually were read by Abraham Lincoln. So Eddie is, he says, he's like, I'm half Murdoch. And he's right. He's part Murdoch. Do we know? Extraordinary.

27:56Do we ever figure out, and by the way, just for the audience, I'm talking today to Valerie Borlein. And she wrote the book, The Devil at His Elbow, Alex Murdoch and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty. Do we know where all the money went? This is one of the mysteries, right? It just seemed like Alec was taking in so much money via fraud from the law firm, the clients and so on. Yeah. And where did it go? Like, it seemed like he claimed he just spent it on drugs. But the conclusion by many was always how many drugs could that could he possibly have taken? He took in more than he could ever have spent, was the layperson conclusion on the funding.

28:35No, and I think one of the key voices in the book is Blanca Simpson, who was the housekeeper at Moselle for many years. And I think the evidence establishes that Ellick was using drugs. But I think there's no evidence that he was using the amount of drugs and opioids in particular that he says he was. And I had the benefit of 10 years of spending. I could see his through some federal exhibits. I could see what he and Maggie spent over the course of 10 years down to like when they when they would go to the Honey Baked Ham store at Thanksgiving. You could see what that expenditure was and what was so shocking about it.

29:12And I think we probably know people like this in our own lives is as soon as money came in the door, it went out. He was he was overdrawn tens of thousands of dollars multiple times in a year. Maggie would have to call him and say, can you call the bank? I need to be able to, I'm at the grocery store. I need to be able to cash this chain and be able to pay for my groceries. What was he spending it on? You know, it's extraordinary. It was, you know, they would take a private plane to a USC bowl game instead of flying first class. Or, you know, they, Blanca told me, and there's farm equipment out on Moselle, which is 1 ,700 acres, It was a huge, huge property, twice the size of Central Park.

29:55And rather than fix a big piece of heavy equipment, they would just put gallons of oil in it every day. So he was spending hundreds of dollars on oil. It's hard to even understand where the money was going. But there is missing money, millions of dollars, the feds say, that's still missing. So he spent a lot of it. He spent some of it on drugs. I think there is, I do subscribe to the idea that he buried some of it at Moselle in PVC pipes. I've talked with people who've been there when those pipes had been dug up. But you can't, I mean, cash is tough. It's tough to bury millions of dollars in dirt over time.

30:34There is a theory, and I think the feds have been pursuing it, that some of the money is offshore. And was he going to run that summer is one of the ideas. But there's there's there's the feds say about six million dollars that's still missing. So that that makes more sense that that we've got millions missing than that. He spent it all on the drugs. All right. So then we go to trial. He does wind up arrested. This all comes out. There is the moment he is found guilty. Actually, we have that. Let's just watch that. Soap 51. The state of South Carolina, county of Colleton, in the Court of General Sessions, the July term of 2022.

31:17The state versus Richard Alexander Murdoch, defendant, indictment for murder, SC code 16-3-0010, CDR code 0116, verdict guilty, signed by the four lady. okay and that's interesting for a few reasons one he was found guilty two old becky hill reading the verdict would come to play a major role in this story which no one knew at the time but becky almost got this verdict thrown out because of her behavior behind the scenes with the jurors and could it still her behavior get this verdict thrown out is that totally settled I know that we had a hearing in which a different judge said, no, I'm not throwing out the verdict.

32:08But could that be reversed on appeal? I imagine Alex lawyers are taking that out. No, it's incredible to watch that footage. I was sitting there that night and I was leaning forward on the edge of my seat just listening to it because I remember that emotion. And all of the docket numbers and numbers were like, but what's the answer? Right, spit it out. But we had been in that courtroom. It's very tight corners. It's these soaring ceilings. It was built and it was designed in the 1820s, but very tight quarters. And we had been in there every day for six weeks. And by we, I mean the lawyers, the law enforcement officers, the jury, the Murdochs, they were across the aisle from me.

32:51I could, you know, exchange pleasantries every day. And so it was an extraordinary result to be there that night and listen to the verdict read by Becky. And Becky was really like the den mother of the courtroom because the clerk of court makes sure the jury has lunch, makes sure that the press has the credentials or, you know, do they there's so many people in downtown Walterboro didn't have places to eat. What about food trucks, which they ultimately bought in? She was sort of the the principal of an elementary school is what it felt like a little bit. So it's surreal for Becky to be the center of so much scrutiny.

33:28But what that scrutiny is about is her relationships and potential talking out of school with members of the jury, many of whom she knew beforehand. And many of the jurors knew each other. It's a small town. I always, you know, I'm from a relatively small town myself in the South. And, you know, if you had 100 people in church the day before jury selection, you know, five of them would have gotten a jury summons. So, you know, people knew each other and the jury wasn't sequestered. Everybody in town knew who they were. And Becky, you know, knew a lot of them personally. And so the question was, did she talk to them out of school?

34:04And did she say things that would prejudice them against Alec, particularly when he took the stand? And you had jurors come forward to say, yes, at least one of them said, she influenced my verdict. And it is a small town. And we talked a little bit about the bootlegging case involving Old Buster. You know, it's extraordinary. But Becky's grandmother and grandfather and her uncle, who was a teenager, were charged, federally charged with felonies in that bootlegging ring. They were on Buster's payroll. Everything is connected. Everything's connected there. But to your question, Megan, I think that we did have a first answer.

34:40There was a hearing back in January where the former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Jean Toll, was asked by her former colleagues on the Supreme Court to take a listen to this request for a new trial. She denied it, but the defense is appealing it back to the Supreme Court. They've agreed to hear it, even though it seems unlikely they will overturn their own special, the person that they trusted with this decision. And then also they're very close allies with Judge Newman, who presided over the initial proceeding. He's very tight with the Chief Justice, Don Beatty. So I spoke with Dick. I saw him recently in Columbia, Dick Harpootlian, and they see their best chance at a new trial at the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, just a little bit further removed from South Carolina, which is such a small state.

35:29And getting fresh ears at this idea of not just did Becky Hill say things to the jurors that were prejudicial, but also did the state apply the wrong standard? And it was a degree that was it's a measure of degrees. Like, yes, we acknowledge that she talked with the jury, but did it did it move the needle? And so what they hope is that the federal court will apply a different standard. Yeah, that they they're going to argue they were held to to too high a burden of proof to prove jury tampering and that a lower standard should have been applied, which would have allowed them to prove jury tampering, which would allow him to get a new trial.

36:06The Justice Toll was great when she came in and held that hearing over Becky Hill. The allegations against Becky Hill just got weirder. Justice Toll, I will say, was, I'm sorry, she's just such an extraordinary figure in South Carolina history. I used to cover South Carolina politics when I was a reporter at the state newspaper in Columbia, and she was the chief justice at the time, former Speaker of the House. She's been in public life there for 60 years and came, was a young lawyer, and this is so extraordinary to me, was a young lawyer in a time when women weren't even allowed to serve in a jury until 1968.

36:40Wow. And so she was she did project when she was up there. I say this lovingly. She she seemed like a tough old broad in the best sense. You know, like she was going to tell you to say that she knew the Murdoch. She knew the Murdoch. And she had actually both in the legislature. I talked with her about this, both in the legislature and on the bench had had pushed for laws that would would would kind of. fallback some of the power that they were using inappropriately, in her view. So she knew the Murdochs quite well over the course of decades. She made the comment about Becky Hill that would become very well known.

37:24Here it is, SOT 52. I find that the clerk of court is not completely credible as a witness. Ms. Hill was attracted by the siren call of celebrity. She wanted to write a book about the trial and express that as early as November 2022, long before the trial began. And that led to bad behavior by Becky Hill, which got this whole thing, you know, mucked up. But do you remember, can you, I'm just, it's been a while since we've covered this, but she also has a son who worked in the courthouse. And there was an allegation about him wiping his phone and wiping her phone on the day that they were supposed to turn them over for an internal ethics investigation.

38:10It smelled to high heaven. You know, it is. I think it's if you're not from a small town in the rural south, maybe it just it boggles the mind. But her son was the information technology director for the county. And that was, you know, she's an elected official. She is, but she's also politically powerful. And some of those jobs are patronage jobs. And he was in that role and is accused of tapping the phone of an county administrator that was communicating with the state ethics board to try to find out what was going on in the investigation with his mother. There were all sorts of wiping the phone, which the lawyers will tell you is a fairly standard move in some defense cases, but it looked highly irregular to a layperson.

39:03Yeah, I mean, it's funny because it's such a big case. It captivated so much attention that the center ring of the circus is really Elec Murdoch and the trial. But there's so many outer rings. With the Mallory Beach case, for example, there's another case that's ongoing about whether the convenience store where Paul bought beer, whether the owner of that convenience store has been trying to harass the Beach family over the years. That's been going on for several years. Becky is facing an investigation into her behavior, and that's been going on. So we're in multiple layers of drama with this story, and it's just incredible.

39:43like the layers. I remember sitting in court and watching Alec during a break. He was six feet away from me. And he's the center of this, he's the eye of this hurricane. And there's so much swirling around him that one person could stir up so much chaos is really amazing. So now here we are where he's appealing. He's going to argue Becky Hill mucked up the trial to the point where he gets another trial. We don't love the chances, but one never knows. And in the meantime, the wrongful death lawsuit that Mallory Beach's family brought against Alec, is that totally resolved? That was the remnants of that were resolved this week with a$500 ,000 payment from her from the from Alec's insurer that had been tied up.

40:30And that was paid to the lawyers this past. The paper was filed this past Monday. So that case is pretty well wrapped up. Did the family get a payment too? The family did. Not this past summer, but summer of 22, I'm sorry, summer of 23, they received a payment largely from Parker's convenience store, this convenience store where Paul bought beer, on the order of$14 million. So it was a significant civil judgment that, and I learned a lot about personal injury law in the course of this, of reporting this book. But, you know, personal injury, this was considered, you know, what was Mallory's life worth?

41:15It is blood money. And so it's a difficult fact of personal injury law that the more money that you get paid is a reflection of what a jury might think your loved one's life is worth. I'm sure it's a special form of sentencing for you because every time you get into the car that money bought or the bed that money paid for, it's got to make you feel awful. Awful. And they will tell you, and they will tell you, Mrs. Pamela Pinckney, Hakeem Pinckney's mother, Hakeem was the paraplegic teenager who died in a nursing home and was robbed by Alec Murdoch twice. She would tell you she would give back all of it for time with her son.

42:02It's just, it's the proxy we have in our judicial system to make a family as whole as possible, knowing that nothing really ever will. So what, if anything, is happening with the other piece of this story, which is the possible murder? There's only one other piece. By Buster, Paul's older brother of a young gay classmate who was killed on the road. But there's just only speculation that it was Buster Murdoch, not actual proof. And they were going to reopen that investigation in the wake of all of this. Where does that stand? Well, you know, you mentioned the missing money. There's also the question of the missing guns and the homicide.

42:49But the biggest unanswered question is what happened to Stephen Smith. He was the 19-year-old young man who was found in the middle of a road in the summer of 2015. In the course of the investigation, the Murdoch name came up 40 different times. People would say one of the boys or another was involved somehow. But I should be clear, there is no evidence that Buster or Paul, there's no proof that either one of them had anything to do with the death of this young man. And Buster has gone so far to say, you know, that he had nothing to do with it. He wasn't close to it. He wasn't there that evening.

43:23And he's even sued some of the documentary filmmakers who he alleges have said that he had a role in some way, shape, or form. They certainly have laid those breadcrumbs. But it is. You can go through. You know, it's 90-some pages of a police report where the name comes up over and over again in very strange ways. So there's always been a rumor that the Murdochs were involved somehow in his death or in making it impossible to find out who killed him. But I can tell you that the state grand jury has still been meeting over this case and is eager to figure it out. It is one that still haunts Hanpton County.

44:06So we may never know, but it won't be for lack of interviews and lack of trying because they're actively working the case from what I understand. So in the time we have left, what's life like right now for Buster Murdoch, the son whose entire family has been killed or is now in jail? And for Alec Murdoch, who is living this life of excess and now is convicted of double homicide, not to mention all the fraud charges that were brought against him separately, which he was also found guilty on? No, it's very poignant. I mentioned I was in Hampton last week and went by the cemetery. And I saw, it took a while, but Maggie and Paul's gravestones have been put up and people will leave flowers there.

44:51There's a ceramic dog that looks like Bubba, the yellow lab that belonged to the family that's there. And most poignant of all, it's, you know, on Maggie's headstone, it says, you know, Margaret Branstetter, Murdoch, mother. and on Paul's it says Paul, Terry, Murdoch, son. And it's incredible that that is how you be defined. But the person I was with said, what happens to Alec? Where is he in this picture? So will he be remembered as a father? Will he be remembered as the person that killed them? But he's in prison in the upstate. He has acclimated to prison life well, according to what I'm told.

45:35And by that, I mean he has, Elec Murdoch is the type of a person who works the system and he has relationships. He does, he's a disbarred lawyer, but he knows the law and he helps other inmates with their questions. He's using his notoriety to his benefit. He was accused by the system of prisons found that he had been essentially bribing other inmates to let him use their PIN number to make phone calls. He's figuring things out on the inside, but he will never, ever see the light of day, even if there's another trial in the homicide case. The state effectively got an insurance policy. You remember back in November when he pled guilty to those dozens of financial crimes, and they got a sentence that will keep him in prison until he's roughly 80 years old, regardless of whether the homicide is overturned.

46:37As for Buster, my understanding is he's living in Bluffton, a community just adjacent to Beaufort. His fiance is a woman who was in court with him every day, his girlfriend from law school who is a lawyer. He got a substantial settlement from his mother's estate, roughly$500 ,000. There's a payment, I document in the book, where he participated in a documentary and got several hundred thousand dollars from that. So he has a small amount, not a, sorry, not a small, but, you know, a significant amount of money to, you know, start a life. Although it is difficult to see how he does so separate from his family because his last name is Murdoch and he's got that red hair.

47:25He's so just, he, he, it would be hard with that, that name and that hair to make an, make a new life. You'd have to go someplace else. I mean, there's a brother, Alex's brother, seemed non-sociopathic. Perhaps there's some hope there. I don't know. Raised by that man with that family lineage, that's awful. Well, and you're right about his brothers. His older brother, Randy, and his younger brother, John Marvin, are still in the community as well. You know, I went by the law firm the other day, and his older brother, Randy, is a partner there and is actively working cases. His younger brother, John Marvin, runs a heavy equipment business.

48:08And as you go down the main drag from Linkinghampton and Varnville, you see Murdoch Rentals right there. So they're still in the community and, you know, well regarded to a degree. But I think that everything's changed with a downfall. Is anyone living at the estate where it happened? So Moselle is the estate where it happened. It actually has been sold, and it's been sold in two pieces. The house itself was sold, along with roughly 20 acres, to an out-of-state buyer whose name was not revealed. And the Delta, the other acreage, was sold to a neighboring landowner who wanted the land. You know, I went by there the other day, too, just to take a look.

48:55I had been onto the property during the trial. I accompanied the jury on their visit to see the place. it still feels, it still seems like there's a heaviness in the air out there. It is still a haunted place, really. Dick Harbutlian said so, and I felt it as well. Always will be. Wow, great reporting. Valerie, thank you. Her name is Valerie Borlein, and the book, again, is The Devil at His Elbow, Alex Murdoch and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty. Google it, check it out, devil at his elbow. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us the story and the updates. Thank you so much for having me.

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50:20A photo, a name, an inside joke. The kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find. Right now, save 25 % on your first order at Zazzle.com. That's Zazzle.com. Make it z-amazing. Today, a deep dive into the Jody Arias case. This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias. We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly's Court contributor, Mark Eiglarsh. We'll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis's murder, what Jody's life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way that only Mark can.

51:14I'm going to kick it off with a little walk down memory lane because you used to come on Kelly's Court back then as now. This one doesn't involve you. This Kelly's Court doesn't involve you, but it's a scene setter. Now we're 10 years post-verdict right now. Here's a little flashback to I was on the air when we got the guilty verdict and covered it with the court then, which was Mercedes Colwyn that day and Johnna Spilbore. Look at this sweet delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace now. Listen. I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered that they're able to find peace.

51:50Some sense of peace. That's great. And the Oscar goes to... Because this is a woman who stabbed him 27 times in the heart as well, then shot him, and look at the bloody sink. Not to be sensationalist, but prosecutors say the man was standing at the sink watching himself get stabbed to death, watching himself get murdered and bleed out over the sink. Oh, but Mercedes, she's so concerned about the family's peace. Give me a break. a very pregnant Megyn Kelly in that clip. But that gets to it, right? I mean, the thing, because I've been asking myself, Mark, what is it about the Jodi Arias case that kept people so riveted?

52:33And in part, it's this mousy little woman who committed one of the most heinous murders that ever came before the national eye. You left out one thing, which is obvious, and maybe you intentionally did it, but Americans like pretty packages. Okay. If she wasn't pretty and I put that in quotations, I mean, it's not how I feel, but there is some type of objective, you know, in Hollywood, what people look for, people found that she was attractive. And if she wasn't and she looked differently, I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's, let's bring that out. That's, that's gotta be something that you concede, right?

53:13Right. And the sex. I mean, it was like an R rated trial. It was like Cinemax back in the day. Oh, yeah. No, there was a lot of that. Yes. And and she really threw punches. I mean, she really, you know, dead man can't tell tales. He was dead. She was free to say whatever the hell she wanted. So whether it be, you know, allegations of him being involved in kiddie porn, which he can't defend, or him wanting to do, which really was documented because you heard those horrible audio tapes of him, you know, some of the things he would do to her, which weren't meant for public viewing. It was just horrible.

53:53All right. So let's start at the beginning. These two meet in 2008, I think it was, 2008 at a business convention. and um 2006 sorry to september these two meet in september 2006 at a work conference in las vegas nevada jody arias and travis alexander and well then they start dating out a few months after that as far as i can tell mark they were only dating for like four months but they continue to they continue to sleep with each other yeah it sounds like it became very physical very quickly and, you know, she's the manipulative type, right? So I can't imagine this was pure love. I think this was lust.

54:39I think this was her, you know, playing the angles, looking to manipulate him. And she jumped all in real quick. Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship, because I think she was like 28, he was a couple of years older than that, that she was some sort of a psycho, that she had, you know, problems with other partners and turning into a stalker or any other criminal history? I don't remember hearing anything like that. I heard little stories, but, you know, everybody comes out of the woodwork on high-profile cases. Nothing that I attributed as credible and believable. So he was a Mormon, and she wasn't until after she met him, right?

55:23Right, right. She became a drive-through Mormon. You know, all of a sudden, I'll convert. I'm sure that was, you know, again, to somehow take one step further into his good graces. So they meet. Yeah, here she is getting her, you know, I don't know. Is it a baptism into the Mormon face? I'm not exactly sure how we would refer to this. But they date from February of 2007 to June 2007. And then they break up and maintain a physical relationship. One year later, one year later, she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents' house. This would become important because it was one week before the murder.

56:03And what happened in that burglary? Yeah, next level stuff. She's thinking, okay, they stole a gun from my grandparents. So that gun's out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun, however, she'd like to use to potentially execute her boy. This is relevant because she would later claim when she was on trial a bunch of different things, intruders, accident, self-defense. And if she intentionally staged a burglary at her parent, her grandparents' house a week before the murder, then it's very clearly a premeditated act. Absolutely. The best she's got is, well, I brought it with me for protection.

56:45I was going on the road, whatever. I didn't mean to kill him. I had it with me. It doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to kill him, but it's strong evidence of it. But I got to go back. There's something that's bothering me, and it'll bother me tonight, Megan. I had brought out that she has a pretty shell to many people. Did you concede that? Is she what you would call attractive? And I'm not talking about her soul. I'm just saying, don't you think that that played a role in why people cared so much, why the media was so serious. Oh, sure. Yeah, if you have an attractive defendant or victim. I mean, I think she was prettier when things started.

57:22And then when she took the stand, when she was at trial, she tried to make herself look very plain Janey, mousy, you know, but like the blonde and, you know, the naked pictures, obviously she's got a very good body. All those things play into, whoa, what's happening there? What, that kind of a person, right? All right, I got what I needed. You can move along. I got it. I just needed to know that. Okay. Okay. So the date of that burglary was May 28th, 2008. June 2nd, 2008, which is now two days before the murder, she rented a vehicle from Budget Rent-A-Car in Redding, California. And then on June 4th, 2008, Travis Alexander was killed in Mesa, Arizona.

58:01So, I mean, to me, this does all look like premeditation. She looks like a jilted lover who became a stalker, who became obsessed with him. were told that in, I think, April, right before the fake burglary at her grandparents' house, he was going to go with her on some trip. That. Right? And then he bailed. Cancun. Everybody wants to go to Cancun, baby. And then she thought she was in the money. She was going to go with him. It's going to be romantic. He's going to really spend the dough on me. It's going to be romantic. And he picked another girl. That was it. And that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic.

58:42Like you never know what's going to set some crazy stalker off to the point of murder. It'll disappoint any normal gal who has strong feelings for someone for whatever reason. But when you take someone who's, you know, got 51 cards and isn't all there, that can really amp it up. Yes. All right. So that's as near as we can tell, like one of the last final acts he does that gets in her head somehow. but they had been on again, off again with the sex after breakup. So, you know, who knows how this exactly files in June 4th, 2008. That's the day of the murder. And we'll get to what happened that day, but weirdly his body was not found for another five days.

59:24Why do we know why that was? Like, did he not have a job? Did he not have friends? How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that a body's five days in the apartment without anybody noticing? Yeah, it was like that. I'm trying to think of the specifics, but he was supposed to be somewhere and then they checked in on him. I think a friend did. Finally, he wasn't there. But yeah, I don't think he had any place that he had to be. He didn't have roommates. He didn't have nosy parents coming around. So yeah, it just happened. Wow, all right. So the day of the murder, June 4th, what happened? She goes over there and what happened?

1:00:02Oh, I don't know. meaning we have what was alleged by the prosecution. The jury found her guilty. You never really know exactly what took place. But what it looked like was she had a plan to execute him. And that's exactly what happened. She tried to defend with he was attacking me. And that was malarkey. Initially, though, I think she was on Inside Edition and told a few people, I wasn't there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. I had nothing to do with it. And then when the evidence comes out, like most of my clients do, they go, oh, wait, you got that evidence? Okay, okay, okay, okay. I was there, but that's what happened.

1:00:42So initially, you know, the murder happens on June 4th. She leaves. We know. I mean, she winds up confessing on the stand. We know she did this crime now. But she left the crime scene. No one finds Travis until his friends realize, like, he's not showing up at events, et cetera. and they go to his house. They, the friends, find his body in a crumpled heap in his shower, an incredibly bloody crime scene, and call 911. Here's a bit of that call. Hello. Hi, so what's going on?

1:01:20He's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay. How did this happen? Do you have any idea? No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days. She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head? Did he cut his head? It's all over the place. And right away, Mark, the friends suspected her. They described her to the authorities as a potential stalker. And that's what Travis had been saying about her. But they did have sex that day, right? I mean, like, it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual interlude prior to the murder. That's what's so unusual.

1:01:59Well, listen, you know, this guy clearly was a guy with strong emotions, which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that. And, you know, they went at it. And my guess is there were some discussions. Maybe that was her way of trying to convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for Cancun to go. I don't know, but something happened and she snapped if if she didn't plan on doing this anyway, no matter what. because you have hours and we know this because they found a camera the two had been taking pictures of the sexual acts there's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera i mean very consensually does not look like a forced situation on either end so for sure and it looks like it went on for hours what do you make of that in other words i want to know what you think why are they having sex the next minute she's executing him in a horrible horrible tragic way which we're going to get to but why do you think what's the sex about what do you think i think it was like a goodbye gift from her to him though he didn't realize that's what it was i think he thought it was just genuine a genuine hookup i think she had this whole thing planned she went there to murder him and this was her farewell you know send off to the guy i do that's why she's a sick effort.

1:03:21And so I think she had the whole thing planned out. And this was, there's no other reason. Okay. That is just cold as ice, baby. Wow. That's her. That's what's interesting about her. I mean, from a, you know, humanity perspective. In fact, in my mind, I couldn't wrap my head around that theory. And so I then thought, okay, she's got it just in case whatever, and then things go awry. And then she kills him either second degree, or she just said, okay, it's part of my plan that I'm now going to implement and she had time to think about it when she's there and she does it. But I don't know, man. You think she knew she was going to kill him prior to having sex with him?

1:04:06Yes, I do. I think the whole thing was planned out in great detail. But she's a bad murderer. I mean, she was effective at committing the murder, but very bad at covering up her tracks. And she should have spent more time in the planning and the lying phase because she turned out to be a disaster at that. Now, she very shortly thereafter gets arrested. The friends are like, it was Jodi Arias. She's a stalker. Meanwhile, the day after the murder, she went and saw another love interest, some guy named Ryan Burns, a former coworker of hers in Utah. That guy, I think he also took the stand. It's like, that's how cold she is, Mark.

1:04:44Now, at this point, there's no doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before. She goes off to see another lover. Oh, no problem. Yeah. Consistent with what you were saying, like to be able to have sex with, with, with this guy before she, she kills him, you know, there's Travis, all right, he's dead. She, she seems to just manipulate. And this is also what I know after the fact, I'm jumping ahead of how she manipulates everybody in prison and stuff like that. But that seems to be her MO. I don't know that type of person, but someone who, who can't have an honest relationship and it's all about manipulation.

1:05:17So she probably had numerous fellas in her life, including the guy you just mentioned where, okay, onto him. What do I need from him? Let me manipulate him to get it. And they tend to be narcissistic personalities, right? Who it's all about them. You only matter to the extent you reflect off of them. You cannot leave them. You certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with Jody. and that's why you can't process it as a normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get dumped it's sad but we don't kill anybody so she goes to see Ryan Burns and then let me tell you this yeah that type of person gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me you know who's got sensibilities the right moral compass who goes to work every day kids family normal they come in and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these people.

1:06:08And a lot of times you're like, well, wait, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that. There's no way that happened. I couldn't have done that. Even with the Murdoch trial, to this day, I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed, it's hard for me to actually see it because it's so foreign to me and what I would do and what the average juror can wrap their heads around. Well, that plays into the brutality of the crime because you look at this beautiful, tiny woman and you do not think she would be capable of this. You know, you see like two big, muscly men with the tats in the prison in their background and you think, oh, okay.

1:06:50Teardrops from the eye. Yeah, the tattoos. You see Jodi Arias, you think, nope, because the level of violence that went down at this crime scene was unbelievable. How did she carry this out? seven stab wounds. Oh, yeah. A slit throat and a gunshot to his face. And the medical examiner testified that the actual slicing was extremely deep, three to four inches deep into his neck. Trying to find the exact description of it, but it was absolutely merciless. She nearly decapitated him while he was in that shower. She clearly went in there while he was showering and nearly decapitated him, stabbed him 27 times.

1:07:37And then the medical examiner said, after that, shot him in the face. So, I mean, the level of anger behind that, Mark, speaks to what? I mean, I don't know. What do we glean from the level of violence? It goes back to what I keep trying to do in my head, maybe as a defense lawyer, as a compassionate soul, to believe that something went down before that happened, that he said something that set her off. I find it hard to believe, although I'm not relating to this type of person, that she, and this is probably what she did, that she had the whole plan. And this was, as you say, her goodbye love session.

1:08:15And then I'm going to get them in the shower. And she did. It just seems more consistent with someone who is set off by some words or action. How can that be? Okay, but how can that be? Because we've seen the crime photos, and among the photos that they found on the camera, which she left behind, is there are photos of Travis in that shower. And it appears to be after the lovemaking, you know, he's in the shower, he's not wearing his clothing. And that's, of course, we know where he was killed. And he's okay. There are photos of him in the shower, he's okay. So you don't have a fight. I mean, like, an errant word from the shower as she was photographing him naked after their lovemaking, that doesn't make sense.

1:08:53My theory makes much more sense. No, it might. Again, listen, I'm not defending this woman at all. I'm just saying as a human being, I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap my head around what she did. It's so challenging. And it's hard to understand how she, this life thin little thing could kill him, could kill a man. He wasn't overly large, but he was bigger than she was. And how do you stab a man 27 times? I mean, he was in the shower, I guess. He's vulnerable and he's not expecting it. But I mean, if that slice across the neck was number one, then that would have been the end of it.

1:09:33And it probably wasn't. I think the medical examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first, which would make sense. He's caught off guard. He goes like this. She continues to stab. but you just said it. He's off guard. He doesn't expect it. He's vulnerable. He's got nothing to defend himself except a bar of soap. You know, what do you do? She knew what she was doing and she's passionate and aggressive and wanted it done. And then to shoot him after the fact, as an ME said that he didn't see a brain hemorrhage from the bullet in Travis's head. And he said there would be if the bullet had gone in there while he was alive and his blood was pumping.

1:10:15So she shot him. She just made sure, you know, he was a hundred percent dead. She wanted this guy dead. She was very angry with him, which again suggests, I think my theory, you know, she was angry. She was dumped. She was angry. She wasn't going to Cancun. You don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like Jodi Arias. And the whole thing was a setup. That's, you know, that seems to be what the evidence suggests. I agree. I just, I just cannot relate. It's going to take me some time to process, probably tonight as I'm laying down writing my gratefuls. Wait a second. She had sex with him as a goodbye.

1:10:49Megan said that, and I trust Megan. I believe her. And then executes him in the most violent manner. In other words, after stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her. It required another few jabs. Right now we're at 21, 22. Still not enough. I need about six more. And then I'm going to slash his throat and shoot him. You really do have to think about what she actually did to appreciate how abhorrent this was. My God. And then leave his crumpled dead body in the shower like he was trash. She did get arrested a month and a couple of days after the act. Then more bizarre behavior came out.

1:11:32I'll get to the interrogation room, but she gave an interview to Inside Edition, Mark's number one advice to all of his clients. Do not talk. Shut up. Let me do the talking if there's going to be any talking. She talks. The fish who kept his mouth shut never got caught. Right? That's right. That's right. And I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial. I've done it in many cases, but that's after you know what the evidence is, You know the parameters. You know how you can and can't get hurt. What she did was just reckless. So she gives an interview to Inside Edition, which actually makes some sense knowing her in the way we do.

1:12:17She was a narcissist. She wanted to be a star. She cared about how she looked, how people were perceiving her. I think she was seeing an opportunity to see her name in lights as opposed to just like, oh my God, keep yourself out of bars. um here is a bit of what she told inside edition this is well before the trial after she'd just been placed in jail did you kill travis alexander i absolutely did not kill travis alexander i had nothing to do with his murder i didn't harm him in any way i witnessed um travis being attacked by two other individuals who i don't know who they were i couldn't pick them out in a police lineup So what happened?

1:12:55They came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis. No, I've never even shot a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times. That's heinous. Or slit his throat from ear to ear. I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm innocent. And you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.

1:13:19Oh, man. Oh, man. We could do an hour just on that. There is so much there. So wait. All right. So let me just go. First of all, the one thing she asked for was for makeup prior to her mugshot. That's what she's thinking about, right? Right. I'm not thinking about a life of having to never take a shower ever again in a jail or prison because, you know, I'm too pretty. She's worried about her mugshot. She needs to to mix. There we go. It is a nice mugshot. So it's a point how she's so narcissistic. She wants the world to love her and and believe that she's, you know, Snow White. But look at the way she acted.

1:14:04This is why you never know anyone. You just know how they want you to see them because she looks believable. If you know nothing about the facts of the case and you look at it, you go, yeah, how could she have done that? So beware, folks. You never really mean. I watched that interview, Mark, and all I can think of is Phil Houston, the human lie detector, CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used there. He was at CIA for 25 years. And what he talks about, I'll set it up for you. I'll play it again. But listen to how, okay, she does a couple of the things. Convincing behavior.

1:14:40If I say to you, Mark, did you kill this guy? You say, no. You don't try to convince me you would never kill anybody. That's not what a normal non-killer does. So the convincing behavior, the deflecting behavior, the qualifying statements, the trying to convince you she's a good person. Listen to it again, understanding those are signs of deception. Did you kill Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in any way. I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals. Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup.

1:15:19So what happened? They came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis? No, I've never even shot a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times? That's heinous. Or slit his throat from ear to ear? I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm innocent. And you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.

1:15:46Classic. That's heinous. That's convincing. I can't imagine ever slitting someone. Who says that? You wouldn't say that. You'd say, no. No, I didn't do it. Period. Listen, in retrospect, you see all these signs. You don't really see it up front. But she did, you know, listen, there's one thing that she did say that really bothers me. And I know it's probably for other cases, but when I can't stand when people blame other people for their crimes and worse, I actually think there should be an enhancement, a penalty enhancement when you pick somebody of a certain race or gender. No, it's always like, oh, black man.

1:16:21It was two Latino women who did this, or it was two black males who I can't stand that. All right, I'm done. Yeah. No, it happens all the time. Yeah. Two Latino women. Who is that? That was the blonde lady, the wife who staged her own disappearance. What's her name? You're thinking about this. So how many Hispanic Latina women are stopped and questioned and harassed in that area because of what she said, right? I can't stay with me. Well, at least Jodi Arias said, I couldn't pick them out of a lineup. Like, don't bother. Don't worry. We won't. Oh, Sherry Papini. Sherry Papini was the one who said the two Latinas.

1:16:59Give her credit for not wasting precious judicial and and law enforcement resources on her trying to identify someone. Give her credit for that. Yes. Okay. So she gives that BS interview. I mean, it's so weird. And you can take it right now. I'm not going to be convicted. What the hell? This is not a sports game. Like, just this is a crazy person sitting there, though not legally. But on the subject of craziness, there was video of her in the interrogation room at the police station doing a headstand. And I want to ask you, why did she do this? They left her alone in the interrogation room. For the listening audience, she goes down, headstand, legs up against the wall.

1:17:38She's got no shoes on. She's in civilian clothes. She holds it for 30 seconds. They said she then began to walk around the little interrogation room and sing a Dido song and search through the trash. So, Mark, what's that about? Well, whenever I've done that, Megan, I have no idea. I should know what that means. That's a nut job. Well, is she going for an insanity thing? That's my first thought was, is she trying to look like a nutcase in the most serious of circumstances? She's doing headstands. No, no, no, no, no. I eliminate that. Listen, of all your theories, that one I don't like, because that would mean this narcissist who has consistently said that it wasn't her.

1:18:18She wasn't there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. She's not going to then say, I'm nutty. I'm crazy. I did it, but I did it because I'm, you know, I don't know right from wrong and I have a mental illness or defect. There's no way that that's what she was doing. So could it just be, she's been in there for hours and somehow in her apartment, she does that. I don't know. There's women who do headstands like that for some purpose, I think. Right. Isn't that part of some pose? Yeah. I mean, it could have been a stress reliever. I don't know. It could have been a stress. I'm sure she was stressed.

1:18:51You heard in that interview with Inside Edition, she claimed for the first time two intruders killed Travis and that she was there as well. The ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup. She continued to claim a home invasion and that we'd been there having a consensual sexual interlude using the camera before the intruders got there. The camera is one of the most interesting things about the whole day. They took pictures of each other. She took pictures of him post-injury, like post, at least one picture they say was of him in the shower while he was being attacked. And so we have crime scene photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him.

1:19:36But the reporting was that there was at least one photo post-initial injury. How does this person leave the camera there? And I think they eventually found it like, in the washing machine? Yes. I'm glad you said that. I was getting that vibe. It was either washing machine. I'm thinking back all these years. It was either washing machine or dryer. I think it was the washing. And somehow the, I don't know, the little disc or whatever they use was still good. And they were able to get those photos. And again, once that evidence came in, that's it. She's done all her story. I don't get it, Mark. She leaves.

1:20:11She's got all the time in the world. She leaves. They don't find the body for five days. She knows there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him moments before he dies. Nah. Why? Washing machine. Why? She thinks once she washi, bye-bye. That's what I think happened. Why wouldn't she just take it with her? I don't get it. It's too stupid. Is she a moron? She left a lot of clues and she's serving a life sentence. I wouldn't put her up there with Einstein. Yeah. There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to close that gap. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents.

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1:21:44She gets arrested. She goes on trial. Once she takes the stand, and was it a surprise, do you remember, because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to offer its side. Was it a shock when she took the stand? I don't think I was shocked. No. In fact, In fact, the type of person that she was, very outspoken, very passionate. I think she needed to. I think that she, I think it was expected. I don't think I was shocked. Okay, because somebody's going to have to say what happened inside of that room, and she's going to have to admit she was there. Now, thanks to the photographic evidence.

1:22:22Yeah, and also anytime there's any element of self-defense, which is pretty much what she was saying, that she was attacked and then she had to do something, that can't be brought up by a lawyer. You got to put them up there. Okay, because she started with intruders to Inside Edition. She continued with home invasion. And, you know, I was an innocent victim that saw him, you know, get attacked. And then she switched. She switched to Travis attacked me. And I killed him in self-defense. In August of 2010, she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from Travis Alexander admitted into evidence.

1:23:01the letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self-defense. The prosecution objected, saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim of self-defense and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by Mr. Alexander, but they denied that, and they said these letters should not be allowed. Her new theory was that Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self-defense. That was ultimately, Mark, what she did claim in front of the jury, was it not? That's all that was left. In other words, okay, the two intruder theory didn't work.

1:23:40Everything else didn't work. Then you're left with, all right, I'm there. I can either do insanity, which works in a fraction of 1 % of the cases. And in this case, with all the planning and all the, you know, lies after the fact would absolutely not work. So by, you know, the same way I took the bar exam, I might not have known the answer, but I eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer. And what's left is the only thing I got to go with. That's what happened. She starts to try to demonize Travis. He abused me. He sexually pressured me. He treated me like I was his sexual play thing.

1:24:14I didn't enjoy it. he was this Mormon who, you know, made me do dirty things that I didn't want to do because he, whatever, he had some beliefs that he didn't want to cross. Here's some of that. Okay. We have, first of all, she accuses him of being a pedophile just to set the jury's expectation of him, you know, where she wanted it. Right. Absolutely no proof of that whatsoever, other than her weird word. Here that is sought for. I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating and I got really embarrassed. It was a picture of a little boy. Oh, five-ish, five-six. I'm not a good judge of age.

1:24:53He was dressed in underwear, like briefs. I was frozen there for a minute, and I just ran. I didn't stay. I felt nauseated. Ran inside and threw up in the bathroom. That's a clip from HLM. which is why there's music over the weird testimony. But yeah, so she tries to condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started. And had Spider-Man pajamas ordered to the house. Like she was very specific. She's dangerous because she's not an idiot. I mean, she's dumb, but she's not an idiot. I don't know what that means, but you know what I'm saying? She's very cunning. She's not a criminal mastermind. What's that?

1:25:33I said, she's not a criminal mastermind, but that doesn't mean she's not smart. She's correct. She's creative. She's, you know, cunning. She plans these things out. She had plenty of time to plan how she was going to lower him in the eyes of the jury. And you dig from the pedophile card deck. That's about as low as you go. That was the worst. So then she tries to say that she had to give him certain forms of sex because he was a Mormon. And this is what he required of her. I'll let her tell it. This is thought five. Sex is sex. There's just different ways to have sex. And it seemed like it seemed like Travis was kind of.

1:26:26I don't know how to put it, but it just seemed like he sort of had like the Bill Clinton version, whereas over here, it seemed like, you know, oral and anal sex were also sex to me. but not for him. So now she's Jody, the librarian, right? She's got her little glasses on. He made me do it this way and the other way. That's pedophile, right? So this is the defense. And this is one of the reasons why America was riveted. So transparent what she's doing, to me anyway, and I think to the jurors also, but you still got to do it. You know, you dealt the cards that you have, you got to play them, and you have a horrible defendant, but there's no other way to advance that ridiculous self-defense theory.

1:27:16Well, is that true? I mean, if you had been her defense attorney, what would you have done? Not write a tell-all book and get disbarred. We'll get to that. What would I do? Probably what happened here. It would be obvious painfully to me that my client is guilty as they come. And I would say to that person, first of all, they might be offering you life. You might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty, try to persuade her that her chances are very low of prevailing. She, the narcissist, would say, I'm not going to be convicted, so I'd go. And I'd say, okay. And to myself, professionally, I'd say, winning is defined by doing everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client.

1:27:59Whether they say guilty or not guilty is not in my control. And so testifying is her option. If she wants to testify, she testifies. In other words, yeah, I might lose this case. And you know what? I'm fine with that. This is the problem. I mean, basically you try to cut a deal with a client like this because there's just no question that the jurors are going to find her guilty. Juan Martinez was the prosecution. And one thing I do remember is you did not like him. You did not like the way he behaved. Listen, the main reason why I accepted your invitation is because I get another crack at talking about his cross-examination.

1:28:39Okay, so let's set it up before we play the soundbite of that. He had two weeks to present his case. It's kind of open and shut. What should he have done? What would you have preferred to see a prosecutor do? Okay, ready? And I'm talking to the Murdoch prosecutors. You know, everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such accolades, and they did good things. I'll give them credit for that. I'm merely talking about cross-examination, which is an art form. I have taught my students that you don't wing it. You carefully craft every single question that you're going to ask, knowing that it could go this way or this way, and then you are ready with the follow-up.

1:29:22Isn't the fact that on such and such a day you said this and you boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's a lean filet mignon. You don't present a big fatty steak wandering around. Hey, Mr. Martinez, your ego is not your amigo. You don't get up there and make it about you. You don't take days. You don't, you know, try to grandstand like he did. I thought his cross-examination was horrible. And people are going to say, oh, you're jealous, this and that. I'm not. I don't care. I wish him well. I'm simply saying that it was a D minus on the scale. And I'm telling you this, don't go by the outcome. This case could have been won by rookie prosecutors.

1:30:04I'm talking about how he did on cross. Both he and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross-examination. Yes, I've said it publicly again. Yes, I know. I agree with you. And now I have to tell you, I listen to some of these friends of the Murdoch prosecutors on their little podcast and they're like, oh, people just didn't get it. They just didn't get how brilliant that cross was. It's like, no, people know how to do a proper cross examination and they could have, it would have been over and done with had they done it properly. They let him go on. There was a chance the jury could have bonded with the guy.

1:30:36They took unnecessary risks in that cross of Alex. I agree with you. Okay. So here's one. You don't take credit because the guy, either the guy or in this case, Jody looked bad. Oh, look at me. I made her look bad. She would have looked just as bad without the opportunity to then explain, humanize, go on and on. There's no need for that. There's no reason to take a risk on a single question. Good lawyers carefully craft everything. We think about everything we're doing. These guys look like they were winging it and they were. That's unacceptable. And you stay in control the whole time. You're the one who's speaking.

1:31:14The witness is just there to say yes or no. That's it. You are the one who's telling the jury the story. They're really listening to the prosecutor. With limited exceptions, when I know no matter what they do or say, they're hanging themselves. So every now and then I'll throw that in just to switch it up because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points for them. Well, here's let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez. is here is the prosecutor, Juan, trying to have Jody demonstrate Travis's alleged attack because she's claiming I dropped his camera. Then he came for me.

1:31:55He chased me. That's why I had to kill him. Here's just a little bit of that exchange, and then I'll play the feistier one. Ma 'am, if you wouldn't mind, stand up, go to the left, and show me the posture of Mr. Alexander immediately before he rushed you according to you. As he was running... No, no, just show me. That's what I'm asking you to do, not talk. Show me. Show me the linebacker pose. He got down and... Well, show me the linebacker pose. That's what I'm asking for you to do. Okay. He went like that and he turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that, correct? Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right?

1:32:33I can't say it's just like that, but that's what I... No, just, I want, without talking, just show me the pose. He got down like that? Like that? All right, go ahead and have a seat then. He's already annoying. Megan, let me at him. Okay, first of all, nobody likes a bully. And I'm telling you, I've actually, during jury selection, excuse jurors, one woman I saw when I was speaking, because I was like, you know, I turned to this woman. I said, you said you could be fair to my client, but I'm really wondering, ma 'am. I get a sense that, and I really questioned her very firmly because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board with the plan of being fair.

1:33:17There was a tear that fell down from her eye. I realized in that moment, I asked her, I go, is everything okay? She goes, I don't know. It's just your energy. I feel like you're, and I realized, oh my God, I'm too much for people at certain times. Similarly, what Juan Martinez is doing is being so overly aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn certain jurors off. There's no reason to be that way in a case like this. That's the first criticism. I've got more with what I just saw. Okay, there's more coming. I'll play another soundbite and then you can resume. There was this tense moment where she got after him for his style.

1:33:54It got to the point where she actually had to call him out. Here's a little bit of that on SOT7. What factors influence your having a memory problem? Usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same. So that affects your memory problems, right? It does. It makes my brain scramble. So you're saying that it's the core, basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that you can't remember things that are going on. It's not your fault. I'm not saying that. You're saying that, isn't it? No, I'm not saying that. Is there something about a certain decibel of the voice that creates problems?

1:34:33Decibel tone content, sort of a combination of those factors.

1:34:41Go ahead. God, it's so horrible. And the public doesn't understand because they don't see great cross examinations when they're watching these high profile cases. I haven't seen it recently. There's been some examples. There's some exceptions. None that come to mind right this second. Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp's lawyer with Amber Heard. What's that? Which one? Johnny Depp's lawyer cross-examining Amber Heard. Very effective. Probably. I'm trying to remember. I can't remember her name. She became a star. She's now an NBC contributor. She did it exactly the way we're discussing. It was textbook, Mark.

1:35:15It was, isn't this true? Isn't that true? And then you did this. And then this. Isn't that true, Ms. Heard? Your Honor, please direct the witness to answer my question and not to go on like this. You know, like she controlled the witness. What's her name, Steve? Camille Vasquez. Yeah, she was good. She was solid. I agree. So two things. One, in the first clip that you played, you're asking the defendant now to give her version again, giving her another opportunity to then display for the jurors why she's not guilty. I would never do that. I'd just make fun of it. And the second clip, you look at him, he doesn't have those questions prepared.

1:35:57He's just winging it. That's what a rookie lawyer does or someone who doesn't do cross-examination. It's not to say there's not room for spontaneity, but I plan my spontaneity. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but that's what I do. You sound like a great person to hang out with for a wife. Not always. I'm talking about not in the bedroom, in the courtroom. Come on. And on three. Okay. Let's talk about the fact that your friend Juan Martinez, in addition to the defense lawyer, have both been disbarred since then. They've both lost their law licenses. Yeah. Yeah. Different reasons. But can we back up a little bit?

1:36:43Because we left out one of the biggest things in the trial. Well, yeah, I'm not done with the trial, but I do think it's interesting that your friend lost his law license. And I think when people look at that cross-examination, very interesting to know, quoting now the AP, that Martinez was accused later, this is why he lost his law license, of leaking the identity of one of the Jody Arias jurors. He leaked the identity to a blogger with whom he was having a sexual relationship, then lied to investigators about it. That's what he was accused of. And of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks in his office.

1:37:24He chose not to defend the charges and consented to disbarment. And what's happening? What are you doing? It's a fog, Megan. Like Jodi Aries, don't you remember? She was in a fog. What? You don't think I've been props out for you? Come on. You got dry ice in your office. It's a little machine I gave to my son. It's like 13th birthday, but so appropriate really when we're talking about the fog and how Jodi Arias was in a fog. She didn't remember anything. Don't you remember the famous fog? Come on. She was in a fog. Okay. A lawyer too. All right. The lawyer too was in a fog as he was sexually harassing all the female law clerks to the point where they were, they had to run.

1:38:13He was staring at the chest of some female employees in the county prosecutor's office, looked them up and down as they walked away. Some female employees would hide in the bathroom, duck into cubicles or engage in busy work to avoid encountering Martinez. He got fired after 32 years as a prosecutor, then lost his law license. That's the man I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on. What an unsubtle pig. You know, I read that to my wife. She's like, what a horrible and i looked at it from her perspective and and women don't like that you know and a horrible place to be you know where we're all day long you have this guy staring at you and he's not subtle and it just it's just horrible you know i know it's creepy well so you i mean i think your instincts were dead on you understood this is not a good lawyer and this is not a good man and you had a revolt in watching him that was well placed but the the evidence was so strong against her, it didn't wind up hurting his case.

1:39:12He did ultimately get a confession on the stand, which was rather helpful. I mean, we knew that she killed him because she was claiming self-defense by that point. But here is the moment of confession on the stand when she breaks down Sade. Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear?

1:39:38Yes. Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso?

1:39:53Yes. And you're doing all of this according to your version of events. you're doing this to this individual after you have already shot him right yes

1:40:13what do you make of that credit again megan that was her whole theory she was admitting that she did the abhorrent acts for which she's accused if anything he could have artfully said all right just so these jurors are crystal clear, the first stab that went into his body, you did that, not two strangers that you initially said, these two intruders, right? Then another jab, and then another jab, this one over here by the heart, that was you, not somebody else. And then he could have gone on and on and on about every stab that she did. And then to really highlight the brutality, especially since he's going for the death penalty after.

1:40:53So you really want to highlight it. The best he had was you stabbed him in the torso. Yes, yes. No, 27 times. And then you did this or that, whatever order he wants. That was, you're giving him credit. And yeah, okay, he did that. But again, it was, wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity. That's a good point. Drive it home. And I found the medical examiner's testimony that I was looking for earlier. Kevin Horn testified about the stab wounds and said, the slash wound to Travis's throat was three to four inches deep and went to the spinal cord in the back of the neck, had two major vessels that had been sliced.

1:41:32He would have lost a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost consciousness within seconds and died a few minutes later. And then of course, she shot him as well. But he talked about the wounds to Travis's hands. That must have been before the fatal injury. So the guy fought for his life. He must have been terrified. this person he trusted, who was, you know, he was undressed with, had had this interlude with, surprises him in this place that's supposed to be, you know, inviolate, the shower, my God. So you're right. And his failure to bring home the brutality did come back to haunt him at the penalty phase.

1:42:08Yeah, I'm still actually thinking of ways that I would have done this differently. I would have said, I'm sorry, Ms. Arias, I see that you're crying. Do you need a moment. And by the way, Ms. Arias, were you crying? Stab number seven, were tears running down your eyes then? When you did this, were you crying then? Okay. Do you need time? I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes, but I'm not going to let her hide her face in that tissue and put on that act. Ms. Arias, can you look at me? I'm asking you some questions. If you need time, I'll give you some time. She's hiding her face. The jurors need to judge her credibility, your honor, assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to control her that way.

1:42:44I'd go sidebar and say, judge they're judging she's hiding her face i want them to see her face she needs time i'll give her time but i'm not going to let her bury her face when i'm asking her to talk about the most intimate of brutality that she committed no way that's a good point does anyone have a scrunchie who's got a scrunchie let's get that hair back no you're right there was that was clearly a tactic well the jury didn't buy it because after she'd been on the stand for, they say, 18 days, 18 days between direct and cross-examination, many felt that was a tactic by her defense lawyer to create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not vote for death.

1:43:27Do you agree that was a strategy? 100%. And let me just say this. I just finished a federal trial. My client wanted to take the witness stand. My direct was extremely long. Number one, I'm humanizing my client. Number two, there was a lot to talk about, right? Number three, it is difficult when they don't know who your client is. The prosecutors will always call them the defendant. I'm here to humanize my client. And yes, in that case, they want to slaughter her. They want to kill her, right? The ultimate sanction. So that serves a purpose. Kudos for the defense lawyer, not the prosecutor, the defense lawyer, I don't care how long he takes.

1:44:07As long as it's productive and it's routine, they've rehearsed it all. It's choreographed. She could look great on direct, long, long, long, long. Cross, not the same. What do you mean? Cross needs to be tight. It needs to be planned out. It shouldn't go for more than a day. And certainly within that day, I'd say a few hours, you can make your points. That's it. days you don't want you don't want to put one martinez show this isn't about you dude stop making it about you you don't want to prolong the relationship between this person and the jurors any more so than than the defense lawyer did on the direct all right so the jury gets the case ultimately the jury was read in court here's soundbite nine state of arizona versus jody and areas verdict count one we the jury duly empaneled and sworn and the above entitled action upon our oaths do fine the defendant as to count one first degree murder guilty.

1:45:08Five jurors fine premeditated. Zero fine felony murder. Seven fine both premeditated and felony. Signed for person. Is this your true verdict so say you want it all?

1:45:25I mean it wasn't a shock. She actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict. It wasn't a shock to anybody. Don't credit her with having real emotion and equating whatever she just did to how you and I, she's in a whole different area code psychologically. I don't know what that was. I don't. Right, there's more acting. Well, then we moved on to the penalty phase. Will she get life in prison or will she get the death penalty? And that is in Arizona is up to the jury, at least on the initial go-round. And so the jury had to wrestle with that. She got to say how she felt about the death penalty in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix the week she was found guilty.

1:46:10Listen to this, Sot 11. I believe death is the ultimate freedom, so I'd rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it. So you're saying you actually prefer getting the death penalty to being in prison for life? Yes. and here she is a brilliant wait addressing the jury yeah go ahead no no no no megan come on that was brilliant the awesome in manipulation that's what nicholas cruz should have done i want death you know for killing all those kids at marjory stoneman douglas again it's reverse psychology she doesn't want to die she doesn't want to be a death row she's going to be the the queen in prison.

1:46:52She wants to live out her life. And so she just does the twist. That's the ultimate manipulation for that, I'm sure. So she did it with the jury as well. Here's a couple of soundbites I've heard addressing them. We'll start with Sot 12. This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. You think? It's the worst thing I ever could have seen myself doing. In fact, I couldn't have seen myself doing it. Before that day, I wouldn't even want to harm a spider. I'd gather them up in cups and put them outside. To this day, I can hardly believe I was capable of such violence, but I know that I was.

1:47:34And for that, I'm going to be sorry for the rest of my life. Probably longer.

1:47:41Oh, Lord. All right. Let me add on to that. One, I'm offended for her making me feel guilty for killing spiders. Very offensive. And number two, come on. Again, I see how manipulative she is. I keep coming back to that word. And she couldn't drum up any real tears either. It's like, if you really are unjustly convicted, you just look and sound entirely different. Here she is. Wait, and one more thing bothers me. I got to get these things off. I'm sorry to keep interrupting. But if I don't, I'm going to think about them later. Mistake? I can't stand on people call something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out and as, you know, just gory as a mistake, right?

1:48:24You had 27 stabs. Those were mistakes. Like Hitler calling the Holocaust, you know, an inconvenience, you know, a minor blemish on my record, you know, like stop minimizing things. It's not a mistake. Right. That's a good point. Like what was the mistake? The three inch, you know, cutting of the carotid artery after you stabbed him 27 times, like the number, number two through 26. Those were the, like in any event. Um, now here she is asking them for, uh, well, you'll listen, you'll hear. It's not 13. I've made many public statements that I would prefer the death penalty to life in prison. Each time I said that, though I meant it, I lacked perspective.

1:49:03Until very recently, I could not have imagined standing before you all and asking you to give me life.

1:49:11To me, life in prison was the most unappealing outcome I could possibly think of. I thought I'd rather die. But as I stand here now, I can't in good conscience ask you to sentence me to death. Because of them.

1:49:28Asking for death is tantamount to suicide. Either way, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison. It'll either be shortened or not.

1:49:41She was pointing to her parents when she said because of them. So, a change of heart, Mark. Yeah, how convenient. I just, that's just so silly. I don't even have anything to say. I think I've said it already. Manipulator. This person is a household name. I mean, think about that. This woman is a household name. Most people in America know who Jodi Arias is because the media took to this case like moths to a flame. She was the star. She's a sociopath. You can see it's fascinating to see the mind in, you know, working, like doing its manipulation. And you know what? it worked because the jury ultimately did not sentence her to death.

1:50:17It was a hung jury. And then they brought in another jury to try to decide. And they too could not decide on giving her death and without a unanimous vote for it. You don't get it. And that's why she got life in prison without the possibility of parole where she is right now. What we don't know is the split, right? Was it one lone juror? Was it a few? Likely it was a few because there was a lot of mitigators. I didn't see any of that testimony, but the lack of priors, I don't want to start naming them because it'll look like I'm being sympathetic, but whatever the defense said, there was stuff to work with here.

1:50:56The crime was especially heinous, atrocious, and cruel, and cold calculated and very premeditated. The state had that going for them. Everything else, the mitigators, it was probably a couple people who said, no, she should get life instead. And And that's it. They only needed a few there. I mean, is it true that generally they don't like to give you the death penalty if it's just one murder as opposed to a serial killer or like the guy who takes out his family, you know, something like that? There's that. And statistically, you know, how many women actually get the death penalty? You know, it's very rare.

1:51:33And don't you tell me that looks don't matter and how she acts. People consider that. They just do.

1:51:45so we talked about the fact that the prosecutor is now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing her lawyer too is now disbarred what did he do this bothers me another reason why i was i was looking forward to doing this this really bothers me so he writes a book a tell-all and included in that book are intimate details that she shared with him while he was representing her he then writes this book and she's objecting to it naturally. And apparently they knew about it. The bar did and said, listen, you're either going to, for putting this out there, you have two options. One will suspend you for four years, but you cannot then put this book out there, or you can lose your law license forever, give it up.

1:52:33And then, obviously then you'll be free to publish that book. He chose option number two. And I'm not going to out anybody, my wife, who said, good for him for putting that out there. Because I'm sure many people feel that way. And I was so upset about that. Because yeah, do I care that Jody Arias's thoughts are put out there? No, because I don't like Jody Arias. But it's so much bigger than that. He is eroding the attorney client privilege, where now either my clients or other future clients feel like, wait, is this going to be the lawyer who liked that guy, that Nimrod? You're going to put it out there in some book to capitalize?

1:53:09And then that doesn't give any confidence when anybody goes to speak to an attorney. I'm really bothered by it. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing that two of the main characters in this cast wound up disbarred. And the third, the true star, is behind bars for the rest of her life without the possibility of parole. There have been some reports that behind She's in a medium security prison. She's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name on her jail cell mates. Lifetime is actually just now, 10 years later, coming out with a docudrama about Jodi Arias and the case and gets into some of that, like her life in jail.

1:53:52We managed to pull a clip, Mark Iglarch, for the entertainment of the audience. Here's a bit. A Lifetime original movie. Ripped from the headlines. Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. Jodi Arias. Jodi. Jodi Arias. I'm Jodi. You know her name. It's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom. You're the worst. We do what we have to do. But not this story. When you get out, maybe you can help me get the word out about my innocence. Share whatever you need. I thank God for you. I knew you came into my life for a reason. It's based on a true story. There is no question. Jodi killed Travis Alexander.

1:54:30this january everything you said it was a lie i was worried that if i told you what really happened i'd lose you it's in the past now and i love you i can't defend you did you believe she was innocent yes was she innocent hell no i feel like you betrayed me i will never forgive you bad behind bars jody areas bad behind bars she's manipulating at the jail social media posts all sorts of bad stuff good casting i mean you know i was like wait that looks like her no um what what happens at a medium security prison how are you able to make friends and you know tattoo one another and do social media yeah she's probably living a pretty damn good life number one medium security She wasn't high.

1:55:23They brought her down to medium. So that's much better for her. Orange is the new black, you know. And then secondly, she didn't kill any children. You know, in the pecking order, she killed a man that many think might have done something bad to her. At least that was her story. So in prison, you know, she's at the top of the pecking order. And with her manipulation and beauty, she's probably living large. And when I say beauty, I use that in quotations. I'm talking about objectively to others. I know she's using that for her own benefit. Is it possible to have a co-ed prison? Because this is where I get confused.

1:56:01They said she met somebody named Donovan Baring while serving time. Donovan was serving time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa County Jail, where they were cellmates for six months. Oh, they're both girls. Okay. Then this duo became really close and stayed in touch. Afterward, Donovan, who I guess is a girl, and Jodi, they stayed tight. Then they were at Estrella, another prison, where this other gal, Tracy, met Donovan for the first time. They got romantically involved. They say by their own admission, Jodi used her good looks and sexuality to get what she wanted and inserted herself into their union as well.

1:56:39Although they never engaged in actual sex acts together, she once delivered a striptease with Tracy for Donovan and then often refused to leave their cell when they wanted alone time together. From getting them to manage her social media accounts, again, why does she have them? To ultimately officiating their wedding ceremony, she did it all for the couple, quoting from thecinemaholic.com. So all of this is documented. I mean, on and on it goes, Mark. Once a master manipulator, always. a mastermind. And she has nothing but time on her hands. So she's playing all those games. And I too, by the way, found it confusing at first.

1:57:18I'm like, Donovan, she with a dude? How'd that happen? No, Donovan's a female. And then you play it along and you figure out what happened. I think as an aside, I read, she's got something going on with a guy on the outside. And that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out there, sending letters, wanting to be with her, phone privileges, right? And then eventually she's looking to get married to get the conjugal visits. That's all going to happen. We saw that with Lyle and the other Menendez. That's what they do. It just goes to show you, though, the media is still obsessed with this case. I mean, here we are 10 years later.

1:57:51You don't always do a 10-year retrospective on every case, but I remember covering this all the time that America was into it and wanted more, more, more, more, more. And here we are 10 years later, and she's still providing material from behind bars. So what's our takeaway? When you look back and you say, okay, what lessons can be learned from this case? Anything come to mind? Okay. So number one, you never really know anyone. Do not judge someone based upon how they look. And even when you think that you're a good judge of character, you never know. You got to look at the evidence. So once you get the evidence, that speaks volumes.

1:58:29Don't judge somebody based upon their demeanor, what they say and how they look, which coincidentally is exactly what courts are about. And that's why they get it wrong all the time. But the court of public opinion, wait, listen to all the evidence, and then you can decide. But we don't do that. The second takeaway I got is, I can't say enough about this prosecutor. Again, he won the case, good for him. And by winning, I mean he got the guilty verdict that anyone would have gotten. But his cross-examination to this day still was horrible. I don't even want to put it in the same category as the Murdoch prosecutor.

1:59:06His was not great, but Martinez's was to me offensive, you know, that he took a case that was a slam dunk and just took days and days and days to do this horrible badgering bullying cross. So prosecutors beware. I'm available. You want to reach out to me? We'll make arrangements to make sure that in a very important case that you prepare and all the questions are right there and you've thought them out. That's what matters. You've got to prepare. Those are two thoughts on the top. You know, the rule is that the jury is supposed to like you more than the defendant. You know, that's your goal when you're cross-examining somebody that they will like you, the lawyer, more than the person.

1:59:45And that the way to get there is not usually to berate them, to shout at them, to telegraph with every question that you have nothing but dripping disdain for them. They know that. They know that if you're the prosecutor. This is going to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey, but I think first for you to be liked by a jury or anyone, you've got to thoroughly and unconditionally like yourself. And I don't know that Juan Martinez did. Well, it's interesting that he did turn out to be a bad guy. You know, he did such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there. and it's just always interesting when like the outward persona winds up matching with what's going on behind closed doors.

2:00:26It's sort of, it is an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts. I don't believe you can't ever, you can't ever know somebody. My God, Doug, we need to talk. I have to wait to see the evidence. I love Doug too, but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be. Doug's got stuff inside of Doug and so do you and so do I. That's, we've never let out. not necessarily consciously, but sometimes subconsciously. So again, all we're seeing, and I adore my wife. I love her, but I love what I know about her. There's stuff I don't know about her. And I love her for that too. And I love her unconditionally.

2:01:02But again, all we know is what we know. That's it. Turn back on the fog. The fog needs to come back. Mark Heiglarsh. It's always a pleasure, my friend. Thank you. Thank you, Megan.

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2:02:48It is called The Girl with the Duck Tattoo. In it, she aims to set the record straight by laying out what she says is the real story behind the fame, the manipulation and the fallout of her unbelievable saga. Sarma, hi. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Well, I'm sorry that you had an unfortunate experience with Netflix, but you are not alone. We've covered so many of these cases on Netflix where they lure you in and they really do sell a documentary. And it's nothing of the kind. It's a mockumentary. It's a docudrama. It's something that is not committed to journalistic fact based reporting.

2:03:31So I will give you that right off the top. But I'm super interested to find out what is true. So as I, I'm just like to give a two line encapsulation of your story to the audience, as I understand it, you're very well educated. You went to Wharton. You worked at Bear Stearns, Bain Capital. Then you went to the French Culinary Institute. You learned how to be a serious chef. You open up this banger of a restaurant with raw food, pure food and wine. Everyone in New York loved it. It was going really well. And then you met this man, this man who came into your life, who was somewhat sketchy and notwithstanding your sophistication, bit by bit, he eroded your sense of self, your understanding of what was real.

2:04:21And before you knew it, you had lost everything. Is that a fair summation of how this thing went down? Yeah, that was an incredible summation. That was, you know, better than I can do it in a concise way. But yeah, that's what happened. And what I've learned is that my story was an extreme version of something that happens to people a lot more than people realize. And I know this now from all the messages I've gotten in my DMs since the show came out and since it became much more public is that this type of manipulation can happen a lot more than people realize. And it also can happen to men and women alike.

2:05:01And so part of my telling of the story is to really help educate people how it happened. And that was the most important part that the show on Netflix left out and that the filmmakers left out is any explanation of how this happens, which is what would allow people to help protect themselves. And which is so unsatisfying because what's most interesting about the story to many of us is how someone as sophisticated and well-educated and successful as you would fall for this guy's lies. That's what we all want to know, right? Because in our heads, we want to say, oh, I would never. But I mean, I have covered enough of these stories to know don't ever say that because nine times out of 10, the person being targeted has a bio not unlike yours.

2:05:52For some reason, these con men go for the sophisticated smart types. Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, similar with cults. You know, they actually need somebody who's got a certain level of intelligence because it's almost like you can't train a, you know, you need somebody who's got a certain level of intelligence to be able to pull off this long, slow manipulation. And I mean, I've spoken to people who have PhDs in clinical psychology, attorneys even, who've been, had their world turned upside down in a way that they never expected. And so, again, that's what I write about in my book is really taking the reader along with me through this sort of nightmarish journey about getting manipulated over time and really trying to, you know, as honestly as I could, even in places where I felt it didn't reflect well on me, to help people understand how this happens and also the psychology behind it.

2:06:55And that's really also what was left out of the show. Have you ever heard the story of, I'm going to mess up, is it Anderson Benita is her first name, NBC journalist who got lured in by this doctor who said he had figured out a way to do prosthetic, Benita Alexander, to do prosthetic tracheas on people. And long story short, he was a big fraud. And he convinced her that they were going to go and be married in Rome by the Pope, even though she was divorced. And also, she's a newswoman. You can't find more cynical mofos than news producers. And she got lured in. And what What she said at the end, Sarma, is something that you of our interview, you might relate to, which was because she's also very smart.

2:07:45He needed her to be smart because that's where the Jones came from. Like it wasn't going to be fun for him if she were too easy a mark. Yes. I mean, part of what I think part of why this can happen is because certainly, you know, whether it's my wiring or whatever it is, but I almost couldn't. It's like I couldn't fathom that somebody could be so diabolical. And also his motivation, it wasn't that clear because it's not like in the end of this, he walked away with all of this money that he took from me. He just spent it, gambled it away. That wasn't the point for him. The point for him was the thrill that he and people like this get from the takedown.

2:08:30Because I'm not a psychologist, but when you're wired a certain way and you don't have empathy and you go around in this world, it's like life is a game. And to manipulate people is, I think, what gives people like this a rise. And so, you know, again, the bigger the takedown, the bigger the high they get, I suppose. And that's really the point of it is the destruction. Well, and I want people to remember this. I want people to remember Benita, again, a hard-nosed NBC journalist who was doing journalism at the, you know, the toughest levels he can, who was convinced by this fraudster that the Pope was going to marry them in the Vatican, notwithstanding the fact that she was divorced and that Bill Clinton was going to go and Barack Obama was going to go.

2:09:14And the only reason she found out it was all a lie is a friend at NBC was like, Bonita, we checked the president's schedule. He's not going, even the Pope's not even going to be in Rome on the date of your wedding. Hello. And sort of the mask finally started coming off and she started realizing she'd been totally manipulated. So the point is simply, while the lies may sound so obviously outrageous to those of us on the outside, these fraudsters build slowly to gain your trust and control over you before they really start with the huge whoppers to where you're really believing what looks like to the outside world, obvious nonsense.

2:09:53But when you're in it, you're so far removed from your original self, it can happened. So, okay, let's talk about how it happened to you. So you're, you did the corporate stuff using your Wharton degree. And then like everybody, you decided you hated that you go to culinary school, you open up this raw restaurant and it's a hit. It's like doing really well in Manhattan. This is what the early aughts. Yeah. It opened in 2004 and it was a beautiful restaurant. what I was so proud of is that it wasn't a restaurant for, you know, it was a raw vegan restaurant. It wasn't a restaurant for vegans. It was a restaurant for everybody.

2:10:32And, you know, the food that we made now I realize kind of how ahead of its time it was because this was 15 years ago and it really was about clean ingredients. There were no fake meats. There was no processed food whatsoever. So, you know, and there were no, you know, 15 years ago, there were no seed oil. So it was really about showing people how incredibly good, really, truly clean, nutritionally dense food can be, not just in the restaurant, but through the brand One Lucky Duck, where we had products that were sold through Whole Foods and kids loved them, which meant a lot to me. So, you know, and this was my whole life's purpose.

2:11:12It wasn't like I just started a business and wanted to make money. This was my life's purpose was hopefully being able to have a positive impact. And, you know, it was a beloved restaurant because people came there and there was, you know, it was very important to me that there was zero judgment. We weren't dogmatic about anything. So half the staff or more probably weren't vegan. Most of our, you know, half our customers, it wasn't like that. There was no, you know, we weren't like annoyingly dogmatic about it. There was no judgment whatsoever. It was just sort of showing people how good this can be.

2:11:46And, you know, we were doing great with it. And I had all these opportunities to expand and take it global and open in other locations. But I was running it on my own in a way and very overwhelmed. And I now understand more about my psychological wiring, too, that, you know, I just I always needed a trusted partner to help me grow the business. And I didn't have that. And I was overwhelmed and then also went through a painful breakup and was at a particularly vulnerable moment when this man slid into my dms they can smell it they can smell vulnerability they absolutely know how to exploit women who are down and it can go the other way too but it's in this case it's a man taking advantage of a woman all right so right you're just out of a relationship that didn't work out you're growing your business but that's tough it's challenging on any individual.

2:12:40But it's succeeding. And there's a little bit of this. I'm going to show some Netflix clips because it's just interesting how they documented some of the, we can see the B-roll of the restaurant and so on. Let's take a look at SOT 51, which is about the beginning of your career. My undergrad major was economics. And I feel like I got there by process of elimination. So I went to UPenn, Wharton, and Philadelphia. I think what happened is when I was there, It was like, what is everybody else doing? Everybody's gunning to go work in investment banking. I got hired by Bear Stearns. Somebody that I'd worked with said to me, do you really like this work?

2:13:22I mean, is this what you really want to do? And my first thought was, do you like it? I don't, do people like it? He sort of confronted me on that. Nobody else had really done that. He said, you seem to be interested in food. People that I worked with had subscriptions to the Wall Street Journal and I had a subscription to Gourmet Magazine and Food & Wine. That might have been a clue. I wasn't going into the right field. I left after a year and a half. At that time, I wasn't under any pressure to get a job financially, so I went to culinary school. I finished at the French Culinary Institute in 99 and then focused on working in food.

2:14:05Now, I understand you don't love this clip. What is it about this that's off? Well, that clip I didn't have any issues with. It was the parts that I had issues with were mostly what they left out of the series, including any explanation of the psychology of it. And then they misused a call at the end and they actually moved my words around. so hold on because the audience isn't ready for that yet yeah we will definitely get there okay so there you are you're making the restaurant the the documentary requires attention the fact that tom brady giselle uh alec baldwin came in and actually wound up hitting on you but you weren't really in a place where you thought you could do that this is before illeria or at least was like there was some sort of a vibe going there it was potentially an option but didn't happen I mean, he's got his own issues, but they're not quite as bad as the man you wound up with.

2:15:01So then enters the guy who is kind of the other star of the Netflix documentary, who was going by Shane Fox, but actually has a different name. Anthony, is it Brugalis? No, his name was Anthony Strangers. He's since changed it to Anthony. Sorry, Strangers. Yeah, he's changed it to Anthony Knight. which I always point out just because if anybody out there comes across a dude that a very large dude named Anthony Knight, he's he legally changed his name, I think, to try to hide further. Yeah. How did you meet him? What was his name when you met him? Well, he said his name was Shane Fox. And I met him through Alec Baldwin, through our Twitter conversations, which is part of why, you know, I write about Alec in my book and our relationship.

2:15:51and then how, oddly enough, I met, it was just through DMs and Twitter. Alec had just joined Twitter. And I think that this guy just got lucky enough that he got there early. And so Alec followed him back, which in a way gave him at least some kind of a credibility that made him a little bit more, I don't know, legit. So I wasn't quite as suspicious as I might have been otherwise. And that's something that people like this always look for is any kind of sort of validation that they can get. And how did he explain to you that his name wasn't Shane Fox? Well, that came out later, but he crafted this whole sort of persona that he, you know, worked in these clandestine operations, which of course is the perfect cover if somebody's a con artist, because, you know, they have an immediate excuse to not explain anything.

2:16:43And so eventually I found out his real name. But when that happened, by the time that happened, I was already ensnared. And and also by that time, it was as if, you know, well, of course, that's not my real name. Of course, I have to have, you know, different identities because of what I do or whatnot. I mean, a load of crap. But at the time, I did. Did he love bomb you? Because usually that's what these guys do. Yes. In my case, it wasn't so much love bombing as it was more like validation bombing. because what this man did, it wasn't that I was so in love with him or it was about some sort of romantic delusion.

2:17:23It was more that he knew he had clocked me as somebody where what meant the most to me in the world was this business and what I wanted it to do for the world. And then at the same time, he figured out what all of my weaknesses and vulnerabilities were. And so what people do like this, and I think cult leaders do this as well, is they present to you your goals and ideals and the best version of you and what you want to be ultimately, and then somehow attach themselves to it as if the only way to get there is through them. So I would say in my case, it was more of like, I don't know, it was like a validation bombing, like sort of overwhelming me with feeling like he recognized and understood what I wanted to do and understood all of my hopes and dreams and my frustrations and that he would be able to remove all of those frustrations and enable me to grow my business into the business that I wanted it to be without, you know, the influence of sort of unsavory investors or because I was in a position where a lot of people wanted to come help me expand the business, but they were not the right people or they were predatory in one way or another.

2:18:36Well, the restaurant industry is notoriously sketchy and you don't know who to trust. So I can see how it would be difficult to understand, like, is this somebody whose money I want? Is this somebody whose partnership I want? Yeah. Enters this guy who's charming. You didn't then know about his criminal history or what he'd done to another woman. So I get it. You're, you know, kind of willfully blind to some of these things about him. Many women go through this when they're, you know, first coupling with a man who may be the answer to their problems. But you married him, which was not a good decision.

2:19:14The Netflix documentary covers that a bit. Here's a little bit in Sat. 52. Anthony would tell me that that$2 million debt that I'd taken on to buy the restaurant, that's like nothing. He would just take care of that and make that go away. So he would be there with me and help, you know, support me to do all the things that I wanted to do. you know, would be protected, at least in one significant way, financially. And I remember thinking that would be like some sort of dream come true. I remember asking the accountant, would he be able to just give me that money or would that be taxable? And how could we do that?

2:19:56And he sort of jokingly, but half seriously said, well, well, you should just marry him and then he can give you the money without it being taxable in a taxable situation. And very quickly, it was like the next day we went and got the license. They have to wait 24 hours. And it was like, boom, 24 hours. We did it and got married. We got married in November of 2012. So it was close to a year that I had known him. Oh, so you're married now. Yeah. And this was one of the parts where they edited. it. I mean, there was a whole, there was two totally different parts of the interview. So it wasn't that the accountant said that, and then 24 hours later, we were married.

2:20:40What I had said was that he had later subsequently really pressured me and badgered me to marry him, saying that I would be protected and it would make everything easier. And it was a whole different part of the interview. And then I made the point that, so I finally agreed, like, fine, I'll marry you. And we went to city hall to get the license. And then 24 hours later, we were married. So this wasn't even one of the most egregious examples of where they changed the narrative. But this was, it was just one that in a way it made me look a bit suspect to the audience because it made it seem like I just married him for the money that I thought he had.

2:21:20When in reality, it was later on and he really badgered me to marry him for, for other reasons. What did you think he did for a living? I mean, that's a good question. I write about it in the memoir, how, you know, what he did was always vague. And anytime I asked him questions, I would always get vague answers. And what he did was drop, you know, he would say things in a very word salad-y way. So you get an answer, but it's not a real answer. And you're almost left to connect the dots and figure it out on your own. So I know that sounds weird, but that's kind of how he addressed every question that I had about everything.

2:22:02So, you know, and again, later on, what he did was almost irrelevant because, you know, he spun the delusion to such an extent that, you know, he kind of had me believing that there's parallel realities and nothing is real anyway. So, yeah, what he did was almost irrelevant. Mm hmm. So he kind of spun a bunch of bull. But how long into the relationship did he start asking you for money? Because he definitely said he was very, very wealthy and that you were going to be super wealthy too. But the money only ever went one way, from you to him. So how early on in the relationship did that start? It took a while before he ever asked me for money.

2:22:49And the first time it was as if it was an emergency, like some last minute thing. and there would be dire consequences and he needed my help. And so, again, I'm the type of person where if you need my help and I can do it, I'll do it. And in retrospect, it was a way of getting me tethered because then he never paid me back. And then it was another way for him to get me... What the show didn't cover adequately too is that this took a really long time and multiple times after I first got to know him, I thought, all right, well, this is it. You know, something feels off about this guy. And my gut was telling me something feels off about this guy.

2:23:32And so I'd tell myself I'm going to cut off communication or I won't see him again. But once he'd borrowed that money, it was like a tether. So then he would say, well, I'm going to pay you back. So, you know, let me come back and see you this weekend because he didn't live in New York. So he always, when he came, he was coming from out of town. Let me come back. I'll pay you back. And so I'd agree. And then he'd do whatever, you know, mind sorcery he did that somehow by the end of the weekend, I'd have loaned him more money. And over time, I just got in deeper and deeper. And, you know, he always had these ever changing stories about how he was he had money, but he didn't have access to it or he was going to have it.

2:24:13And again, it just got deeper and deeper. when you had given him i mean the the final number is a lot bigger than this but when you realize you'd given him more than a million dollars did the light bulb go off like was there any point when the numbers got huge that you were like what am i the bigger the numbers got the more terrifying the whole thing was and again part of what these people do is they they weaponize fear. And so, you know, the deeper in the hole I am, the more I need him to get me out or the way that he's promising he's going to get me out of it. And so it's almost like, you know, it's a terrible analogy because I'm not a gambler, but it's like, if you think that if you just keep going, it's all going to be absolved and you'll get out of it if you just keep going.

2:25:06That's part of how they, you know, he got me trapped is I just, I mean, how, and by that point, I couldn't even explain what happened. So if I had walked away from him and gone and ran to somebody and said, look, I need help. I, you know, I'm in a bad situation. And they said, well, what's going on? What happened? I wouldn't even know how to explain it. And that's, that's the part that, you know, it, it takes, it almost takes having been through something like this to really understand how it happens. So again, that's, you know, why I'm writing, why I've written this book is to try to help people understand so they can hopefully avoid it or potentially recognize if it's happening to somebody that they care about or a loved one and be able to help them sooner because people around me knew that something was wrong, but they didn't know what was wrong.

2:25:55I'd love to believe that your book can do that and that this segment can do that. I have my doubts. I think people make their own mistakes for all sorts of deep psychological reasons. They need to pursue this terrible pattern of choices. And most people have to learn individually. It's unfortunate, but maybe, you know, we have a shot. Maybe we'll get one or two who are happy to hear us and read the book and feel differently when they get approached by a guy like this. Can you just put some color on how he was reeling you in? You know, like when I talked to Benita, she talked a lot about how this doctor was just over the top with like the rose petals and the gifts.

2:26:36And she had tape of him like, my love, my love. And she thought he was this world class doctor saving lives with this, you know, brand new breakthrough technology. And so you could kind of see how, you know, any young woman to be like, oh, this is a pretty good catch. He's hanging out with the Clintons and the Obamas, allegedly. But I remain somewhat mystified about what this guy had to recommend him, like how he mind-wormed into your psyche. Well, a couple of things. One is that because I met him through Twitter, now ex-DMs, there was at least a month or more before I saw him in person. And so he was able to sort of do a number on me before I even met him, which was smart on his part, because if I had met him, a lot of things in my intuition might have told me that he wasn't right.

2:27:25But by that time, he'd gotten me sort of hooked on this fantasy. And what he really did was weaponize my ambitions, because I really believed in my business and what we were doing for the world. And he effectively love-bombed me with validation. and knew what I wanted to hear and saying that he believed in me and that, you know, that my business was so important to helping the world and helping to heal people and helping to change the way people eat. And that's really what, that's really what got me and making me believe that he would help me be able to realize those dreams. Forgive me for the psychoanalysis, but when you look back at how you were when you were a little girl, have you in retrospect been able to like explain your susceptibility to that kind of, you know, your need for that kind of outside flattery and I don't know, building you up?

2:28:25Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've done a lot of my own psychoanalysis to try to figure these things out. And I always tell people the most important work that you can do is this sort of this deep self-reflection and looking at your childhood and whatever your specific wounds are. Because even if you grew up and had good parents who weren't abusive or cruel in any way, shape or form, perhaps they're emotionally unavailable in some way or you're not getting the validation you want. Or for whatever reason I grew up, I might present a certain way, but I really was also probably deeply insecure in a lot of ways and needed that sort of validation.

2:29:06conversation and then on the other side of the show one of the things that happened on the other side of this show coming out is that people bombarded me asking me if I'd ever had an autism diagnosis and I thought like that had never occurred to me and so I went and got a an evaluation and ended up getting a diagnosis it used to be called Asperger's and now they call it autism one for whatever reason but that's another thing that shed a lot of light on whatever it is about my particular wiring that makes me, you know, that sort of allows for that paradox of being objectively, reasonably intelligent, yet also unable to see certain things that other people might have seen.

2:29:50Right. It's almost like a social, I don't want to say handicap, but like a social struggle that when you have Asperger's, social does not come easy to you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I can, again, and women, I think, are better at masking. So people don't see it as easily. You know, I can go out there and talk to people and nobody would necessarily think, oh, she has Asperger's. But yet certain things, you know, certain things, I don't clock people's intentions as well as other people might, or it takes me a little bit longer sometimes to process things. and I just walk into interactions and have a default setting that I trust people and that I assume that they would operate the way that I would, which is in good faith.

2:30:37And so I just don't see, you know, there's a thing called betrayal blindness and very, very, very silly. I have to trust no one. No one's operating in good faith. No, I have the same deficiency in some way, so I can understand. Yeah. And I mean, I, it, this wasn't an isolated event. This has happened to me. There's like that saying, you know, fool me once, shame on you. But for me, it's like, I have to take responsibility for the fact that this has happened to me over and over and over again. And so I really have had to do a lot of deep analysis on understanding the how and the why. I mean, even what happened with the filmmakers, I blindly trusted that they would make an accurate show and that they wouldn't have done something that was on the other side of it such a betrayal but you know i mean they they do it all the time over on netflix yeah i mean in this case the filmmakers made the show and then sold it to netflix but netflix and their market well but netflix has a responsibility they're the error of it like that they're the ones putting it out there like i'm sick of this because netflix is so many people who even i know it's a pattern do not believe the word documentary when Netflix slaps it on any film.

2:31:50It's always going to be docudrama that I will never believe them when they say documentary ever, uh, just given what I've seen. But let me go back to the, the fraud because near as I can tell, he was taking all this money from you and he was telling you like he needed it for an emergency. And he talked about like, there being kind of like another side. There's some sort of family that sounded more like an ethereal family, not like a mob family, not like a family of origin, but like some quote family that was evaluating you and you had to pass these tests. And this was after he had ratcheted up the trust factor.

2:32:25He didn't just drop that on you on email one, but eventually he got you believing that your sweet dog, Leon, a pit who you adopted, who was absolutely beautiful and very sweet and who you were in love with that he could somehow provide immortality for for leon here's uh 54 from the netflix show what eventually happens is that anthony promises her that if she just followed along with the program he was suggesting kept going along with what was instructed he is going to make both Sarma and her dog immortal, just like Anthony is. There was some magical force in play here. And he's already in this special ethereal world because he's passed through the tests into this new state of being.

2:33:21It's like some fantastical, magical future where my dog is going to live forever in this reality. didn't really matter because it would all be reset to some sort of utopia. His happily ever after that he always referred to.

2:33:42Now, when people watching this say, oh, come on, right? Like that would be a bridge too far. Everyone knows there's no such thing as immortality. How do you explain that? Well, what I would say is that, you know, I think unless you've been through it, the effects of things like cognitive dissonance and over time a ratcheting up level of dissociation, it's not that I believed things he told me necessarily, but they were things that you can't disprove. And so I didn't not believe him. I just didn't know what to believe. And again, he had gotten me in so deep that I didn't see a way out. And so you start to cling to whatever solutions and fantasy that they operate you because by this point you're desperate.

2:34:30So again, it wasn't so overt that he said, you know, Leon's going to live forever, my dog, but it was all things that he implied. And I think that the more afraid I got, the more I dissociated and wanted to believe that none of this was real because I was in so deep financially. I mean, the most painful part is that this wasn't my money. It's not like I had this money saved, and he got it, that would have been, you know, for me, comparatively, that would have been great if that was the only consequence. The most painful part is that this was money that came from the business, which ended up destroying it.

2:35:06And, you know, all of these other people that were hurt through me was the most painful, grueling part of this whole situation. Because you had investors, you had employees. Yeah. And yeah, you were not the only one who would go down as a result. Right. And he got money out of my mother. Your company had to close twice, not one, but twice. One time because of all the money he sold, then he reopened and then it happened a second time. And that second time was the last time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and because he took me away. So when he took me away from the city, I mean, when I was arrested a year, almost a year later, nine months later, if you had told me that people had stepped in and the restaurant was still running, I would have, I would have been relieved.

2:35:49But the point is that the entire time that I was away, I never Googled what happened or, you know, whether or not the restaurant had closed or what happened after I left. And, you know, again, that's something I go into detail and in the, in the book, so people can better understand how it happened. Because eventually as, and by the way, we should cover this. Do we believe that he was taking all those, you know,$10 ,000,$100 ,000,$14 ,000 checks you were sending him, and eventually your mom was sending him and just gambling it? I believe so, again, because I think people like him, it's not about the money.

2:36:29It would all make much more sense if he had been stashing the money somewhere and, you know, and then had just dumped me and gotten on a plane and, you know, traveled, left the country, but he didn't. Again, I think the point was the takedown. And in some ways, it almost feels like the point was to destroy me, to absolutely obliterate me and to, you know, beyond just the financial side of it, but it's almost as if he wanted me to be so utterly humiliated and broken and to have burned all of my bridges so that any chance for me to recover and come back and rebuild would be, you know, as small as possible.

2:37:09And I'm, I'm still trying to do that, but he made sure it would be as difficult as humanly possible. Because not only did he destroy your business, but he destroyed your reputation and no, no investor, investor is going to give you money. You say this in the documentary now and employees are going to have a, a care or two about taking a job with you. Yeah, well, I mean, with your employees, though, I know you want to add something about I guess, did you pay the employees back their their back pay? Uh, yeah. So I, I agreed to participate in the show. I, I said, I just wanted enough money to repay my employees.

2:37:46So as a condition of participating, I got the amount of money that the employees were owed, which was, uh, just about 75 grand and all of it went to them because that's the part that weighed on me the heaviest, because, you know, of course that they're not getting paid is more significant than, you know, maybe a wealthy investor being out some of their money. I mean, that weighs on me as well. But what happened with my employees weighed the heaviest. And, you know, all of those people that work there, the ones who are available want to come back if I can reopen. You know, I'm in contact with all of them.

2:38:19So they forgave you? Yeah, because they knew. I mean, the people that worked there and the people who were longtime customers of the brand, they knew me. They knew that whatever happened, they knew something really crazy happened, but they knew that I would never, ever, ever hurt that business or the people who work there. It's the other way around. I would have sacrificed myself for them and for that business. So they knew that it didn't make sense. So then eventually this, this, I am still unclear, even having watched the show, this guy gets you to go kind of on, on the run with him. you leave New York for 10 months you guys are down in like Tennessee for some of it by Dollywood you changed your name well not legally but you started to go by Emma instead of Sarma and he went he changed his name you covered up your tattoo that had the name of your secondary restaurant on it so what did you think during those times did you think I'm on the lamb from the law?

2:39:24No, I had no idea that I was being sought after. And at the time, I wouldn't have even, you know, of course, what happened with the money was incredibly unfortunate, but I would have thought it's more of a civil matter, not criminal, because, you know, again, you think that to be a criminal, you have to have criminal intent. And I had the opposite of criminal intent in this situation. So I didn't think that, you know, I wasn't aware of being sought after by the police. But what I write about in my book and what really didn't come through is that by the time he took me away, I was so broken that there's a scene where he drives me away and I'm screaming in the car.

2:40:13And by scene, I mean, I write about this part in the book because it's almost the last memory I have is being in the car and when he tells me we're driving away, I was screaming my head off, which is very unlike me, but like almost like a wild animal just screaming and he just let me scream and then I wore myself out. And it's as if that was the moment when I just slid into a deep, deep level of dissociation. And from then on was in a sort of autopilot. And so if you saw me during that time, I could function, I could talk to a barista at Starbucks, but it's like I wasn't there. And that's the part that, again, it's really hard to know how that might feel unless you've been through it.

2:41:03And so to answer the question, what was I thinking or what was I feeling? I wasn't thinking and I wasn't feeling. It's like that's what dissociation is. You're thinking and your feeling is detached. So you're just like almost like a zombie on autopilot. And then the really gut-wrenching part is when I finally was arrested, and I write in my book that it took getting arrested to set me free. You know, I have warm, fuzzy feelings for the detective who arrested me, who's a lovely person, and I think he could see what was going on. The prosecutors in New York, different story. But the detective who arrested me, he recognized the dynamics of what was going on.

2:41:39And then once I was arrested, it was the slow process of waking back up into a level of sanity and coming back into the real world. To me, it's like breaking a horse. It's like once the horse is broke, it does stop bucking. It stops trying to get out of the corral. It's a different horse. Or like the elephant that they don't realize that they've been set free. They've just been so trained to walk in this one area that they don't or they don't realize that they could break away. You know, it is it is like breaking an animal in that way. So what was he getting out of having you in this condition and just with him during these 10 months on the lam?

2:42:27Because you were out of money. Now, I know your mom started to get he started to hit her up for dough and she did it because she was so worried about you. But what was why keep you, in other words, once like you were kind of bankrupt and I have the same question more to get like you would think that by that point he would have just I mean, he could have just dumped me somewhere and he could have gone on a plane and left the country and and nobody would have ever probably gone after him. but he didn't and so you know i don't i don't know the answer to that question i do know that he was you know when he took me away he then also took full control he had access before but he took full control of my phone my devices my email so i was unaware of him using my phone to text people and using my email to reach out to people and ask for money which is incredibly humiliating when i eventually got back into my email, you know, nine months later, however long it was.

2:43:28So he was still able to get some money out of people through me. And I think that in the end, he realized that somehow the game was over. And I can't really explain this, but I think he, it's almost as if I think he might have gotten us arrested intentionally, which I know seems like it doesn't make any sense. But I, my gut tells me that that's what happened because he said to me, either the day before or even that morning, he said to me, there's going to be one more gut shot. And I was terrified because I didn't know what he meant by that. But it's as if he was telling me, you're going to have to endure one more really painful thing before this is over.

2:44:09And then, boom, we were arrested. Which reminds me of speaking of things he made me endure, there's a whole sexual abuse component of this story that they asked me about and I spoke about in my very long interviews for the series, but they left it out, which felt really strange to me. I didn't understand it at first, but I think had they left it in, then the audience would have sympathized me to the extent that they wouldn't have able to create sort of a twisty ending and cast doubt on whether or not I was complicit. What was the nature of the alleged abuse? um well i think that you might have spoken to people in the nexium cult in the past on your show and so a similar thing happened with keith rainary and you know they create this dynamic where it's almost as if they make you believe that this sexual stuff is necessary and something that you have to endure for your own benefit it's really twisted and hard to explain but I go into sort of grotesque detail in a chapter in my book about what he did.

2:45:19Because, you know, I was so repulsed by this man. This is another thing that people didn't understand and that didn't come through in the story is I was so repulsed by him. The last thing in the world I want to do is have sex with this guy who, by the way, just... By which point? By what point were you repulsed by him? I mean, it happened over time, but it was reasonably at some, you know, certainly when we got married, it wasn't like we were a married couple and having sex. By that point, I'm sure I had stopped wanting to have sex with him. And I think that happened pretty quickly. But he, you know, so eventually it was something that he started to force me to do in a really disgusting, manipulative, cruel way.

2:46:01And it was, you know, I mean, it was incredibly painful, but it's something that cult leaders do as well. And I think it's another it's like another element. I haven't read the book. I only saw the documentary, so I wasn't aware of that. But what can you provide any color on that? Like what what what was so awful about? I mean, I accept that sexual abuse is awful, but if you could just help us understand what you're talking about. Yeah, well, you know, he basically told me that I had to do things. I mean, there's a chapter in my book that goes into some gross detail about this where I come home, you know, I'm exhausted working my ass off getting the restaurant reopened after it closed because of, you know, the actions that he put me through.

2:46:46and I miraculously raised money, got the restaurant reopened. I'm exhausted. And I think that he felt me pulling away a bit where maybe I sensed at that point I could get away from him. And so he needed a way to exert even more dominance over me. And so, you know, there's, he told me to bring a bottle of wine home from the restaurant one night. And I didn't know why, because he didn't drink a lot. And he wanted me to drink because he told me that he was going to have to force me to do stuff. And it was for my own good. And, you know, he had this whole long explanation, which I don't even necessarily recall.

2:47:23But by that point, it was, you know, he had created this dynamic where I have to do what he tells me to do. Otherwise, there's going to be horrible consequences. You know, again, what didn't come through in the show and what people don't understand about situations like this is fear. There is so much fear that you feel like you have to do what these people tell you to do. So it's as if he, it's as if somebody said, I'm going to have to, you know, I don't know. I feel like sometimes if you use the R word, it's screws with the TV, but it's like somebody says, I'm going to have to now sexually abuse you and you have to let, you have to let me.

2:48:06And so that's, you know, that's what happened. And that's I describe in the book. Did you get a response to that allegation when you published the book from him? I mean, I haven't gotten any response from, I can't even imagine. He's off doing what he did to me to somebody else right now. There was a show called Toxic that was on Discovery HBO that I ended up, I didn't want to participate at first, but I did participate once I learned that they were trying to track him down and figure out where he is to potentially hold him accountable because at that point we knew that he was doing this to other people.

2:48:40And so they do track him down and he is doing what he did to me, to somebody else. And he'll continue to do that. He always... This is post-prison time. I should make clear these are allegations. We do not have the proof of that as an independent broadcaster, either of the sexual abuse or that he's doing it to somebody else. But these are Sarmer's allegations.

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2:50:02nothing less than full victory. Pressure, the untold true story of D-Day. Rated PG-13. Maybe inappropriate for children under 13. Now playing only in theaters. He's already been to prison because at the end of this 9-10 month stint in Tennessee, you did get arrested. It made headlines that it was after ordering Domino's. I mean, the short form of this, as I recall, was like, she's not even a vegan. They ordered chicken wings and a pizza from Domino's. like she's the whole thing is a fraud. She's a fraud. That's where your critics went with it. Yeah. Well, I want to speak to the dominoes. That was a tabloid narrative.

2:50:38And I'll point out that even the lovely detectives who arrested me, who, again, I feel very warmly towards, they pointed out to tabloids that were calling him that I was in a different hotel room than him. I didn't even know about the pizza. I wasn't in the same room as the pizza. And so, you know, even knowing that information, it's sort of too juicy a headline for tabloids to claim that, you know, this New York City vegan was arrested because of a pizza. Again, I didn't even know that a pizza existed until a girl in jail when I was in the holding cell in Tennessee, and she had seen me on a news program.

2:51:17She came into the holding cell after me and said, ain't you that girl that was on TV? You know, you got arrested because of the pizza? And I was like, pizza. I didn't know anything about it. So again, that was just a way that the tabloids want to make a story juicier for attention. To diminish you. Yeah. Some of the abuse, not sexual, but verbal is captured in the Netflix film. We have some of the language he used over the phone with you captured in the following soundbite here, SOT55. You know what the fucking deal is here? If I say to do something, do it. No, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works.

2:51:56I already gave you the fucking hundred K on top of everything else. I thought you were going along with everything. She wanted it. You wanted the happily ever after. And now you're talking about this stuff. It's fucking real. This isn't real. None of this is real. Those wires are bullshit. I took you with the fucking books. I fucking told you what was going on. I did all your fucking hate. you're fucking falling apart you're fucking coming on who's making all these fucking threats telling me this and that you're gonna go do this and you're gonna go do that because now i fucking talk to you who's threatening who so i love you i'm threatening you if i tell you to take all your money out of the bank and light it on the fire do it yeah i got i got chills listen i haven't listened to that in a long time so hearing his voice and uh yeah i mean i've i've like goosebumps right now um i think these people have a certain power that's really hard to understand it's it's there's something about it where it's like they get you under a spell and in my case one another paradoxical element about this whole situation is that i was i kept pushing back on him and yet he end up dragging me in and overpowering me over and over again.

2:53:18Yeah, he was not intimidated by your pushback at all. And by the way, there's an ex-wife in the documentary or whatever we're calling it on Netflix who says he did this to her too, except she had a baby. Yes. And she claims in the film that he said to her, you know, if you give a baby salt, it will die and it won't be detectable in an autopsy. And she said, I never let him be alone with a baby after that. I mean, like, again, we don't know whether that is true. It's an allegation by an ex. But if so, then this guy's got a dangerous pattern here. And one might argue you should consider yourself lucky to have just escaped with debt, the loss of your business, self-esteem, some anger from employers and investors, and a short stint in prison.

2:54:06I mean, honestly, this could be the lucky outcome. Yeah, I mean, I say this in all seriousness, there were times where I wished that he had killed me, because when I came out of the other side of this, the consequences and everything being destroyed, I just felt like, what is there left for me to live for? And yeah, and he was never held accountable for what he did to me. He spent a year in jail and I ended up having to go serve four months after he was released. So he was out free, clean slate and I had to go in and do four months. And then he only get a year for all of this. He stole one point seven million dollars minimum from you.

2:54:46Yeah. I mean, I saw, you know, the ultimate damages were higher than that. But like, how does he only get a year in jail for that? That's a good question. You know, I was prosecuted aggressively. He was, it's almost like he was an afterthought because the prosecution focused on the business loss. and but there was no he was never charged for what he did to me or to my mother and this happened you know this was 2016 so i would think that perhaps if it happened now it might be different on the other side of for example keith reynary getting prosecuted for what he did and the way he was able to manipulate people i think maybe now it would have been different or had it been a different prosecutor or just different circumstances but did he did he plead guilty to something or was he found guilty of anything?

2:55:35Well, he he pled guilty. We both pled guilty. There was never any trial or anything like that. I mean, you know, I think anybody who's been through the criminal justice system knows that pleading guilty is something that people do all the time because it's a better alternative than getting dragged through, you know, a trial that you can't afford or the prospect of the stress of a trial and, you know, perhaps things not being admitted into evidence and you end up with even more time and not to mention not being able to afford a trial. So, you know, I ended up pleading guilty, which was really painful because however they made it look, I'm a deeply honest person.

2:56:18And so to stand there in court and have to plead guilty to something that I had no intention of ever doing. You know, what did you plead guilty to? I've almost like blacked it out. But you know, the words fraud and grand larceny were involved. And that's not me. I mean, I'm like the goody two shoes who never got in trouble in school, you know, respects authority, does the right thing. You know, my we ran the restaurant. I had an accountant once who I was talking to about doing our taxes. And he said, well, how many of your employees are on versus off the books? And I said, well, they're all on.

2:56:55He said, no, no, really tell me how many are off. I said, no, they're all on the books. Like we did everything by the book. That's kind of just the person that I am. And so to - Well, the thing that's strange about it is normally if you're committing larceny, you take the money and then you get a gain with it. You do something. I lost everything that will help your life or, you know, I don't know, help someone you love. But what happened here was you were taking money that he was demanding and giving it to him, which he appears to have gambled away, which you do not appear to have benefited from at all.

2:57:30In fact, it was at great cost to you and the things that you cared about. you know like there's they don't have some rolex watch right that you you got or some penthouse that you got you weren't taking this money and lining your own pocket with it you were giving it to him yeah and even so i mean people know me know that that kind of stuff doesn't matter to me what mattered to me was the business and um and wanting to protect it so yeah i mean he he's the only one who benefited I didn't That's a nightmare. I mean, this is just a nightmare. I very much feel for you. I know some people are mad at you because they don't believe that you were mind manipulated, but I believe you.

2:58:14I've seen this happen with enough people. I believe you. I really appreciate that. And, you know, I at least was lucky enough to recover enough of my communications with him that I have all the backup. You know, it's like I naively thought that with my prosecution, the more evidence they dug up and the more they were able to recover, that it would help me. they recovered a journal of mine where I was writing about what was going on. And when I was given a copy of it, I thought, oh, okay, finally, like this exonerates me because surely they wouldn't think that, you know, nothing logically made sense.

2:58:51Why would I have torched my own life? And, um, but you know, that's not how the process can handle it. Yeah. He's got a long criminal record of impersonating police officers, like a very extensive criminal record. and I was completely the opposite. But I just got very unlucky with the prosecution in my case.

2:59:15So sorry to bring this up, but is Leon still alive? Oh, no, he passed away a year and a half ago. I was with him when it happened. And, you know, he had a long life. He was a pit bull and he was 14 and a half when he passed away. but at least I got to be with him. And yeah, that's him. You gave him a lot of love. Yeah. A lot of love. But it was here in this apartment. Yet another, I mean, obviously, like the deluded version of you chose to believe that maybe he could save your beloved pet forever. And of course it's yet another lie that he told you. And so now where, where are you and where is he?

2:59:59You think he's still doing this to yet another person because he's out of prison. I would imagine the Netflix film would make that a little tough for him, but who knows, women do what they're going to do. And what about you? Now what for you? Um, good question. I was moved back here to New York, which was, you know, where I always felt was home to reopen the business in the same location. And then what I said before about, you know, I have to take responsibility for somebody that unfortunately makes a good target and is able to be deceived by some dishonest people. It's happened, sad to say, again.

3:00:39And so I've been a bit reeling on how to move forward, but I still have some things in the works. And I, you know, one of the things that these people look for in a good target is somebody that won't give up and will keep going. And that is something about my personality is that I will keep getting up and I will keep going and keep trying and believing in what I wanted to build the first time around. And so I may be able to pull it off for it to happen again. And maybe not. Well, I mean, if you can earn, if you personally can earn enough money to fund yourself, no one can stop you. I mean, that would be a great outcome here.

3:01:22Even if you have to do catering, whatever, like do something to use your skills to earn enough money to open something up, even if it's not in Manhattan. That could be a first step for you. I think, you know, another going forward now, my mission always was around food and clean eating and healthy living. But I think also on the other side of this, it's really meaningful to me to be, to have my story be as useful as possible through my book and through speaking out about what happened and this type of manipulation that, again, a lot of people don't realize that it could happen to them. And hopefully so that they might also recognize if it's happening to somebody, to a loved one or somebody that they care about.

3:02:03and be able to intervene and help prevent somebody going through as extensive as a nightmare as this. Alec Baldwin needs to help you. Alec Baldwin should fund your restaurant. I don't think so. Somebody else should control the finances, but why not? He was like kind of played an early role on this. In a way, he was responsible for you meeting this guy. He's got a lot of money. He met Ellaria at my restaurant. So, I mean, there's a weird, and I ended up getting, I adopted my dog because of him. That's another story that's in the book. But there's a weird connection there. And it's not, you know, it's a lot of things just need to go right.

3:02:43But for me, it's a matter of finding the right partnership and people that I can trust. Because, you know, it's not that I necessarily would need somebody else to oversee the money. It's that I need guard rails. I need people that are trustworthy and honest and forthright and that I could work collaboratively with and move forward. So that also so that I'm. Well, I think I think it's not it's not for you that you need somebody to control the finances. It's that anybody who is going to be associated with a restaurant is going to want to see that it's not you controlling the finances or that nobody could get.

3:03:17Yeah. For this next phase out, you know, maybe when you're at this for 10 years and everybody sees you're you're good, you don't need that. But I think that's all part of rebuilding trust and telegraphing to the world that you know what happened and you acknowledge it, but you're going to earn back trust. I think that would be a great start. Anyway, I'm going to text Alec Baldwin. I'm going to tell him. But I do think he should help you. And if not, then you help yourself. Then you're very capable. You're well-educated. You have a lot of skills. I think you can earn money and help give yourself the next big start you need.

3:03:49I hope you do it. Thank you for telling your story. I'm sorry this happened to you. Thank you so much. I appreciate being here. all the best. And we'll see you again. Thank you, Sarma. Wow. Unbelievable, right? Like what a crazy story. The book again, that she mentioned is called the girl with the duck tattoo. And that's where Sarma aims to set the record straight by laying out what she says is the real story. One note for you. The Megan Kelly show reached out to Anthony Strangis for comment regarding the sexual assault allegations made by Sarma. As of now, we have not received a response. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

3:04:26No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

3:04:34Hey, it's Dan Cummins. If you're into the weird, the wild, and the downright bizarre, check out my podcast, Time Suck. Each week, I dive into shocking stories like the rise of the NXIVM cult, the origins of conspiracies like QAnon, and the San Francisco witch killer murders. With deep dives and dark humor, Time Suck brings you the stories that'll fascinate you, make you laugh, and fill your head with lots of strange facts. New episodes drop every Monday. Join the cult of the curious. Follow TimeSuck wherever you get your podcasts.

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