All the LIES in Karmelo Anthony Case From “The View,” with VDH, and Former FBI Special Agent Says She's 75% Confident There Will Be Arrest in Guthrie Case | Ep. 1345

27:42So what I'm getting at is that the whole fixation on race and illegal immigration, all of these issues, they're not sustainable, and people, you know they're the democrat just to get final the democrats should run away with these midterms they always do 38 out of the last 41 midterm the end party in the white house loses seats and i don't know whether i don't know what it is but their popularity is going down down down down the democrats and it's because of the candidates that they are nominating that resonate these issues we're talking about and a grand platner or tell rico and i don't think there's a constituency for it i really don't i think people are really angry and they're not talking about it because they understand that it's it's career ending or it's dangerous or you get social pressure but there is uh it's not over with the anger about what's happening in the country it's not just Trump, it's still there.

28:49And people are saying, you look at that picture of the European, it's kind of a worthless parliament. It doesn't have much power. But when you saw two to one vote to end illegal immigration, and people were actually in Europe got up and said, send them back, whether you agree with that or not, that's incredible for Europe. And you can see these parties, you can see in the Western Hemisphere, conservative victories in colombia and ecuador peru chile argentine that whole leftist paradigm that we had really exported all over the world the di was born here and that whole idea whether it was through us aid or whether it was our popular culture it doesn't work in a consensual society it just pits people against each other in a tribal fashion and it's a collectivism Everybody belongs to a collective.

29:40There's no individuality. And I think the universities, I work on a campus, and you should hear, Megan, the professors off the record, off the record. They're all left wing, and they all say, after we got rid of the SAT, after George Floyd, I can't teach my classes because I have to either reduce the workload or I have to introduce new gut courses or I have to do what I did, 80 % A's. And that's the biggest problem right now at Yale, Harvard, 80 % A's. And you say, why are you doing that? And they say privately, I don't want to be statistically accused of being a racist. And when particular people don't get the grade that they like, and they show a pattern of being into a particular group.

30:26And so it's affected everything. It's permeated the entire society, but it didn't have the effect the architects wanted. It's creating a backlash. And yeah, well, now they'll complain about the backlash. I mean, Sonny, Sonny Hostin lives in a mansion. She posted pictures of it herself publicly. So that's how we know it's spectacular. She makes millions of dollars a year. She talks about how her son, when he started running through the neighborhood, like he was training for track, I think she, she mentioned yesterday that he was on the track team. And she went to the local police station to say, that's my boy.

31:04That black boy is my boy. Don't you arrest him for running while black? Because I'm sure in her very Tony Westchester village, they arrest all black people who are running, you know, people who are related to Sonny Austin. Sure. Sure. They do. She's not grateful to a country that helped her son, that allowed her son to go to Harvard. We're still all racists. All the jury is in Texas. Of course, the white people, they're going to be racist. That's why you have to have blacks. And it's not just universities doing this or media. The story you told reminded me when my daughter was in, I guess it was fourth grade.

31:45That's when the Chauvin trial was happening. And we were still in the city in our woke private schools. And her teachers made the class read a Newzilla article about the verdict against Derek Chauvin. It was like a one-page article. So they did. All those fourth grade girls read the article. And then the two teachers said, you know, have like the main and then the assistant, let's talk about it. And the first girl raised her hand and said, oh no, first the teacher said, there is a major problem in this country, massive problem with cops killing black men. Okay. So that's the premise to start the discussion.

32:28So one girl raised her hand and said, um, wasn't he resisting arrest? And the teacher said, they always say that to defend their actions like these evil white cops. And then, uh, then my daughter raised her hand and said, wasn't he on a lot of drugs at the time? And the second teacher said, this conversation is making me very uncomfortable and I am shutting it down right now. Of course, you know, disallowed the discussion amongst a bunch of nine year old girls who had been assigned this article. This is the girls weren't watching Fox News. They were reading what the teachers gave them. It was in the article.

33:10And the girls had some very good questions about the complications of that case, which stood out to even nine year old girls immediately. And rather than allowing them to flesh it out, it was shut down as verboten. I mean, that in a nutshell is what was wrong with those schools and what is wrong with universities today and what leads to a person like Sonny Hostin being allowed a national perch, notwithstanding her racial blindness. I think everybody, I think you're right. I think people got to realize this is not a grassroots phenomenon among poor blacks or middle class blacks. This is a top down media, academics, professors, K through 12, who create these ideologies and then it filters down.

33:58So, Kamala Anthony, all he knows is that if he goes to that track meet and he has a knife and he goes where he's not supposed to be and he gets in an altercation, the larger discourse is going to allow him to make an argument or he won't be held accountable. In other words, DEI takes away all deterrent fears. It just says, whatever happens to you, you're going to play this race card and you're going to get an exception. And they think that because it's all over the popular media. And, Victor, if I forgive the interruption, but it also teaches racial grievance in the first place. It does. It teaches it at the very beginning, and it teaches it all through the university.

34:45And, you know, it's one reason why people say, why are the universities in such failures? And it's an act of commission and omission. They teach so much of this pop psychology, racial stuff, dash studies courses, that these kids come out ignorant and arrogant, and they don't really have skills, especially in the social sciences and the humanities, but they have these ideologies that have been drummed into them. And then they reach the real world, and in the real world, you don't go across into an opposing team's private tent, and you don't dare somebody who's bigger than you, and you don't come armed.

35:27But that's what you would do if you filtered down this message from elites. That's why I mentioned the ICE. All these very wealthy, and I see it all when I go to work in Palo Alto or Menlo Park. You see all these signs and protests about immigrants. They're all very, very wealthy people. And not too long ago, I saw one when I was walking on campus, and I said to her, you should come to where I live. And I live one quarter mile from Serenios, Norteños, and M13 people. And most of them are not here legally. And you should see what happens when that occurs. You should try to go to a public social welfare dialysis clinic or an ER, and what happens to a poor Mexican-American citizen when all of a sudden it's flooded with people who speak Mixoteca Baja, a language that's not even Spanish, in their communities, and they don't have the resources.

36:24But this ideology from very wealthy, privileged people has done so much harm, and that's what the real issue is. So all those people on the view are multimillionaires, and they talk as if they're socialists on the barricades, But they're never subject to the consequences of their own ideology. None of them. They talk about crime, but they all have security. And they all have enough money. They're not worried about California taxes. They're all, and I think people in the West are seeing that it's a phenomenon that can't go on. Because if it goes on, the system that we, you know, we live in a private property, market capitalism, consensual society that's pluralistic.

37:07And if you attack that long enough and you try to undermine it, history is not very forgiving. And I think all of us, whatever your politics are right now, you think if I identify by my tribal affinity or my gender or my sexual orientation, and that's my primary identification, then I'm anti-civilizational. I'm a retrograde tribalist, and people are going to have a legitimate objection to what I'm doing. And I think that's where we are now as a nation. We're saying that this goes on, we can't sustain ourselves. It's kind of like 1850. We're sick of it. 1850, people said, we tried to deal with slavery.

37:52We had it in the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was censored. All men are created equally. And then we said, we can't deal with it. And you could see why, because the 13 colonies would have split apart immediately. We put it off long enough, and this is not sustainable. And they had that 700 ,000 people killed. And I think right now it's just a force multiplier, the blue state model, this whole therapeutic stuff, the government fraud. But all of this emphasis on tribalism and open borders, and people are saying this doesn't work, you people. I have to say, I look at what's happening because this Carmelo Anthony trial and the reaction to it has been so insane that it's just a very stark reminder that the left has not abandoned these radical notions about the role race plays in any and all aspects of society.

38:47And it makes me so angry because I feel like no one rioted when a 17-year-old black boy shoved a knife in the heart of a 17-year-old white boy. No whites were out there chanting white lives matter and, you know, saying the system is set up against whites and so on. And, you know, that there has been a massive change in the bias. Try growing up a white boy today versus a black girl. All the advantages are with the latter in today's day and age when it comes to getting into universities and getting jobs and so on. Nobody was raising that. People just said, what happened in this case? Can we make sure this kid gets a fair trial and that it's fair to the decedent as well?

39:35That's what happened. And then the jury came to its verdict. But now there's this activist class that's acting as though the races are reversed and somehow white people did something terrible to a black boy. And that's just not what happened. No. Like, that's the kind of stuff that's going to radicalize people. Like, it's not just that. Everyone behaved themselves. No one made this racial. Don't make this racial because it doesn't end well for you race agitators. And the same thing happened with the Ukrainian, the poor girl that was murdered, her throat cut on the subway. You saw this murderer eye her, then he cut her throat, and then five people walked right over her as she was dying.

40:17They didn't lend any assistance, and then it was disputed what he said. But I listened to the tape dozens of times. It seems like he said, I got the bit blank something, whites. And nobody rioted. Nobody said, wow, this African-American just preyed on this girl. What we heard was from the media, oh, you have to be socially aware. She was looking at her. She was fixated on her phone. She wasn't aware of the circumstances in which she was in. What were the circumstances in which she was in? She just wanted to take a subway ride home. And if she was attacked by somebody and there were five people right behind him, wouldn't somebody come to her aid?

40:57Maybe they could stop him or, you know, hold him for police. But they just tiptoed around her as she died, and she bled out. It was horrific. And when you add what was going on in Europe, you know, with Henry Nowak and in Bristol, all of these things in the Western world are building, building, building, building. And it's really important that they get vented before people feel frustrated and they have no avenues of correction. So I think— And it's important to remind ourselves that these lunatics, Sunny Hostin does not speak for black people. No, she doesn't. Certainly, nor does Jasmine Crockett.

41:33I mean, it's just, she's just a terrible representative. ABC really needs to reconsider. I think so. I work at the Hoover Institution, and there's four African-American people who were associated with it. Tom Sold, Shelby Steele, Condi Rice, and Kyron Skinner, and they were the best scholars there. I mean, it has nothing to do with black people generically. It's a group of very well-off, educated, supposedly educated elites that are drumming this up among the lower classes. And they're using actually the criminal element. They're using that element to divide us and then to get spoils from society.

42:16And I feel bad because the people who are really warning us have been black intellectuals on the conservative side, what was going on. Tom Soule was, he was, life was threatened. We had to have a, you know, all of his mail had to be examined. But all those threats were coming from people on the left. And Shelby Steele was the same thing. He's amazing. And his son Eli's awesome, too. Yeah. And not to mention Glenn Lowry. I mean, there's just Jason Reilly's spectacular over at the Wall Street Journal on these issues. Like, there's a long list who they don't buy into this nonsense. Normal people who aren't in the media, too.

42:55Don't buy into this nonsense, black or white. But you're right. It's these elites, these leftist elites who are just spewing their bile and trying to create race riots or just hatred that they'll never have to deal with. As you point out, with their guards and in their mansions and their, you know, their fancy cars driven by chauffeurs, they'll never have to deal with it. I want to keep going because there's. I just would say one last thing. This is not new. The people who were behind the Bolshevik Revolution, Lenin and other people, people like Karl Marx, he was an elite. Lenin was an elite. The people who were behind the French Revolution, the Jacobins, the Rose Pierre brother, they were all elites.

43:32The people behind the Spanish Revolution, they were the anarchists, they were all elites. It's always the way it is. It's a bunch of elite. Mondami, look at him. He's an elite. His parents, an endowed professor, a subsidized filmmaker. He gives us lectures about settler colonialism, and you think, wait a minute, you were from the 1 % population in Uganda that had 65 % of the economic output of that country, and no one ever said that you were a settler. You came here to our country. What if we said you're a settler colonialist, you and your family and the Indian community? How would you like that?

44:08Then he says, I'm going to go after whiter neighborhoods that are affluent. Well, then if you should get your data of all ethnic groups in the United States, Indian Americans are the most affluent. So he should have said, I'm going after Indian American communities. They have too much money statistically. But so what I'm getting at is when they this is an elite driven stuff, AOC, Jasmine Crockett, even Ilhan Omar. Nobody ever says to Ilya Omar, is it true that your father was a colonel in Barid Saeed's corrupt government that orchestrated a genocide? And the most, not all, but many or if not most of the refugees that came out were from the Saeed government that was overthrown for its crimes in the Somali, Somaliland wars.

44:56Nobody ever says that. And maybe we shouldn't, but she sure does about other people. She's always checking everybody's background and all of these oppressions and isms and ologies. But no one ever says, well, wait a minute, the United States welcomed in 85 ,000 refugees from Somalia and never asked them, to what degree are you involved with this government that committed genocide? Well, and also didn't ask them about all the massive fraud that they would continue to commit on us. I mean, that's the thing is like, we still let you come in. if only you had not defrauded us, you probably wouldn't be having the criminal troubles you're having now, but you're not allowed to come into our country and fleece our people and commit crimes.

45:36All right, wait, I want to keep going. I've got to talk to you about this. Okay. Cause we're on the subject of elite university people who are far left and in control of the narratives that our children learn at every level. And that leads me to who was at Barack Obama's presidential library opening. But we've been covering this and I didn't see this news until today. In the third row, Bill Ayers and his wife, Bernadine Dorn, they showed up at Barack Obama's library opening. This is the terrorist that is being referenced when people say Barack Obama used to pal around with terrorists. Bernadine Dorn and Bill Ayers, who are partners, who who were founders of the Weather Underground back in the 1970s, which was bombing federal buildings.

46:31For those of you who are young and don't know about this, I'm just going to give you a clip from a documentary on the Weather Underground, and it's got a young Bill Ayers in it. Okay, here it is. Terry, more than probably anyone else, represented the view that it was too late for any kind of reconciliation inside this country and that the best that we could do was to bring about a catastrophic series of actions. They had decided to set off the bomb at a non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix. The idea being that there are no innocent in this war of aggression. What we wanted to do here was deliver the most horrific hit that the United States government had ever suffered on its territory.

47:37So that man, one day when I was at Fox News, would stroll in 2014 and give me an interview. Bill Ayers. It was a crazy, it was like one of the craziest moments of my life, Victor. We got him to Fox News. He came to the belly of the beast. We'd been ripping on him nonstop when Barack Obama had run for president. Barack won anyway, and he agreed to do an interview with me. It was insane. And my assistant, Abigail Finan, said somebody said, what did you do today? She said, I babysat a terrorist in the basement of the Fox News building because we didn't want him to flee. We didn't want him to realize, wait, what am I doing here?

48:16This is a bad idea. So we came on the show. It was a very challenging interview, but very fascinating. And here's just a little bit of it. OK, just cut a quick sound. Sound bite. Watch. How many bombings are you responsible for? Weather Underground I think took credit for just slightly over 20. It might be personally, I've never talked about it, never will. Let me just tell you what I hear when I hear that. I hear you saying you sound like, with respect, Osama bin Laden. While Underground you stole, you lied, you hid, right? Any disagreement? That's right. You stole? Onward, yes. You did. You wrote about it in your book.

48:51We stole ID. You stole purses, you stole wallets. Yeah. You stole money. Some. you ripped off dead babies identities right the violence continued just because you went underground in the new violence stopped what films march first nineteen seventy one you buy the u.s capital may nineteen nineteen seventy two you bomb the pentagon january twenty ninth nineteen seventy five you bomb the state department that's what i mean by violence what would it take to make you bomb this country again i can't completely say no i would never ever rise up in opposition in in a very militant and serious way i can't say i wouldn't I doubt it.

49:28That's who went to Barack Obama's library opening in the third row. He wound up teaching at the University of Illinois. His wife, who is just as involved as he was in the weather underground, teaching at Northwestern Law School, Victor, third row. Everything we've said about Barack Obama was true. He's as radical as they come. He just presents as this moderate, avuncular kind of guy. Yeah, he does. And he says in his I mean, it was reported he wrote if he did write the whole thing, his memoir in Bill Ayers' house. He said that. And then what was even crazier was at that speech, I thought to myself, here they were, he has four mansions at the Chicago mansion, I think it's almost worth 2 million, Colorama, Hawaii, Martha's Vineyard.

50:13They're worth 70 to 100 million. And what are they going to say? And the first thing, one of the first thing is he had to give us a little spin on the Declaration of Independence, that we were flawed. And I thought, do you know anything? Still bitter. Yeah, he didn't understand anything that that had been a big discussion that Jefferson said, all men are created equal and we're going to try to mention slavery, even though he was a slave owner. And five Southerners, five of the 13 colonies were slave-owning. Not that it was de facto outlawed, although there was some in the North, but they all said, if we try to eliminate slavery right now, we won't have a union.

50:51and the British will win because they'll pick us off one by one. And we're going to have to deal with this issue, but let's just be united for now. And that was always an issue, always. Every year they fought about it. And finally, 700 ,000. But all the context is gone. He didn't mention any of that. And then when Michelle got in, she said he was dazzling brilliant, and she listed three things, his Nobel Prize, and then she said Obamacare, and then all of the unity. And I thought, that's all a lie. What are you going to have in that$850 million flack tower? What are you going to have inside? Where are the accomplishments or the legislation?

51:30I can't think of any other than he tore us apart. He was divisive at the beginning. Yes. Divisive in the middle. Divisive at the end and post-presidency. Standby. I want to continue this, but we've got to take a quick break. There is more to do on this subject and more. We will be right back. VDH, thankfully, stays with us. Don't go away. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger of a loaded gun? This is where Berna comes in. That's B-Y-R-N-A. Berna's less lethal launchers are equipped with tear gas and kinetic ammunition and designed to incapacitate an attacker for up to 40 minutes.

52:11And Berna is excited to introduce the all-new compact launcher. It's sleek, it's slim, it hits like a sledgehammer. It's the same size as a smartphone, allowing women to conceal carry everywhere, comfortably and with confidence. It fires at 400 feet per second. That's a lot of power to stop aggressors in their tracks. Their pistols are American-made and hand-assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana, with over 80 % of the components in the compact launcher being sourced in the USA. Burna is legal in all 50 states, requires no background checks, and can be shipped directly to your door. And Berna is trusted by hundreds of police departments too.

52:51If you're one of those people who's afraid of guns and you're worried if you get one, it's gonna get used against you, consider Berna. This thing incapacitates, gives you time to get away or call 911, but God forbid it were turned against you, it would not be a fatal event. Try before you buy. Visit Berna.com to find a Berna dealer partner near you. That's B-Y-R-N-A dot com.

53:42Sign up at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Yo, it's Jay Uso from WWE. And I'm Jimmy Uso. Chumba Casino and WWE are hyped for the biggest event of the summer, SummerSlam. I know, I can't wait. There's nothing better to do while we're waiting than playing Chumba Casino. Sign up today and you can win a VIP experience. With Chumba Casino and with WWE for SummerSlam. So what are you waiting for? Play Chumba Casino and enter for your chance to win. Let's Chumba! Only available in permitted states. No purchase necessary. See terms and conditions for details. VGW Group. Would were prohibited by law.

54:1521 Plus. Sponsored by Chumpa Casino.

54:201980, you and Bernadine Dorn resurfaced. And when she turned herself in, Bernadine Dorn promised to spend her energy organizing to defeat the American Empire. And within a year of that, October 20th, 1981, was a triple homicide. Kathy Boudin learned some of her very criminal tactics while she was with her underground. She was in the townhouse that exploded when that bomb went off, wasn't she? You adopted her child. She's a wonderful person. Your wife, Bernadine Dorn, was asked to cooperate in that investigation. That's right. She refused. Absolutely. She spent seven months in jail because she refused to help the police in their investigation.

54:55Well, she refused to speak to a grand jury. That's quite different. Why would she do that, sir? Nine children lost their fathers that day. I agree with you. Why didn't your wife help? Grand juries are a terrible overreach of the U.S. government. She said about the Charles Manson murders of a pregnant woman and six others, quote, offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives and then eating a meal in the same room. Far out. The weathermen dig Charles Manson. This is your sweetheart? No, no, no. This is your soulmate? Your wife miraculously got a job teaching law or teaching at Northwestern University Law.

55:28And very successfully, absolutely. Which is amazing. They must be offering classes and what you can learn from your future clients. But are you surprised that you got those job offers, you and she? Not really. I mean, I got the FBI's 10 most wanted list. I know. I so was Angela Davis. And, you know, a lot of great people have been on that list. OK, welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. Back with me now, Victor Davis Hanson. He's author of the forthcoming book, The Counterrevolution, The Fall and Rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. So here's just one more thing for you on Bill Ayers, who was at Barack Obama's presidential library opening, along with his wife, Bernadine Dorn, another domestic terrorist affiliated with the Weather Underground, both of whom wound up in academia.

56:17Axios is the one, that's where I learned that Ayers and Dorn were at Obama's. All Obama's presidency, his campaign, he distanced himself. Oh no, I hardly knew him. What do you mean? Bill who? No, no, no. Fox News is crazy saying I launched my campaign in his living room. It was all true. That's why he's there as the bookend on the, on both ends of Barack Obama's presidency. And, uh, here's how Axios, I mean, today is trying to spin this, this thing. Uh, he, they write in 1995, they meaning, uh, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn, how the casual party at their house to introduce friends to a skinny kid with a funny name named Barack Obama.

56:56That was a quote. Uh, then the, then the Axios writes, that was enough for Republican operatives to seize upon when Obama ran for president in 2008. They argued Obama had ties to a man they described as a former domestic terrorist. That's 100 percent true, even though the support came nearly 30 years after the weather underground. You tell me, Victor, did he sound apologetic and regretful in that interview, as I just plead to you, which he did. I couldn't believe it just a couple of years ago. He was smiling. He was smiling. It reminds me, Megan, do you remember that when Obama was trying to convince the country that he was a man of faith and mainstream, he said that he was going to church at the Trinity Church, and the Suntime interviewer asked, well, how often do you go?

57:42And he said, I'm there every Sunday. And then as soon as we got that clip from Reverend Wright, chickens coming home to roost, no, no, God bless America, God blank, blank America, Then all of a sudden, he was wayward. I mean, he had bragged that he was married. His kids were baptized. So his whole role was trying to disguise to get elected. Remember, we are no red states. We are no blue states, 2004. And as soon as he got in there, we had the beer summit and all of that stuff. It just kept going on. Trevon, the kid, the son that I never had, looked like me, et cetera, et cetera. And now he's done with it, and he can feel liberated again.

58:23And that's why he invited them. And again, Bill Ayers is a son, as I remember, of a very wealthy utility executive, raised like Obama. Obama said he was lower middle class. He went to a prep school. His grandmother, who was a very wonderful person, who paid for his education, worked her way up to be a bank executive. Of course, she was rewarded by being called a typical white person. But all of these people are elites. They are either upper middle class or they're very, very wealthy.

59:00And America's never had a mainstream socialist movement. I think the greatest vote giver was Eugene Debs right in 1920. He ran for president five times as a socialist. Finally, they put him in jail and he got a million votes. That was it. so the people themselves have never wanted to be common and if Mondami and these new socialists have support I guarantee you it's coming from people who went to college and were imbued with all this stuff but it's not coming from electricians or plumbers or any of those people Totally agree. Yeah, it's crazy to see these clips come back and to see Axios trying to whitewash his history and to see Barack Obama give it up.

59:45He gave it up. He's been denying the relationship with this guy, downplaying it for years. Third row. OK, third row. We were right all along. The Obamas lie. If their lips are moving, they're lying. The only difference is nobody will call him out on it in the mainstream media. Axios won't call them out. The others won't call them out. There's too obsessed with orange man bad. And Trump's alleged lies. As Sean Hannity once put it to me, Trump's problem is not that he lies. It's that he tells the truth. I don't know why it gets Trump in trouble. Remember, Reverend Wright was shut out during the eight years and they asked him, well, why haven't you seen Obama?

1:00:26And he said, dim Jews don't let me see him. That's a direct literal quote, but I don't know what happened to him. He had a very beautiful home that he had. It was all this race, radical stuff. It's very cynical. Bill Ayers is still privileged, and they do a lot of damage. But as you pointed out, it's the middle class, the officers who were killed, their children. That's their victims, always. And that's what's sad. When all of these race hustlers gin up all this racial animosity, then it's some black electrician that then somebody comes up to him and said, well, Al Sharpton. It's it's an elite driven thing.

1:01:11And or the black pilot. You know, this is the point Charlie Kirk was trying to make the black pilot who is 100 percent qualified and out hustled everybody else to get this job. who gets a second glance from somebody who's flying United because they understand that airline has a policy of requiring at least 50 % DEI hires, or it's not all black, but like women and whatever, like minority groups, alleged minority groups. That's the point Charlie was making that so many on the left use against him now to say he was a racist. He was saying, I don't like feeling that way. Get rid of DEI. Then we look at everybody in their positions and know there's only one reason they got there?

1:01:50Skills, qualifications. I used to go for 15 years, Tom Soule and I had lunch twice a month. And he's once said something really profound. It seemed obvious, but the way he put it was very profound. He said, I don't, as a matter of my own behavior, I don't trust people that have not gone through the meritocratic process. And I said, well, explain. He said, you know, when I was growing up in the 1950s, you could not, if you were black, it was very hard to get into medical school. So he said, if you got through medical school, you had to be 110%. And he wasn't defending that. It should have been no edge either way.

1:02:28But what he was saying is there was an institutionalized bias. So when he went to doctors, he deliberately went to black doctors, not because he was black, but because they had to be superb. There was no old boys network or preference. And then he said, and then they reversed it. So then they allowed you to have, I think he said 250 points on the MCAT advantage and all this. So he said now I kind of, he was kind of laughing, but he was half serious. He said, I kind of go to Asian Americans because they're overrepresented and they're always discriminated against. And you have to be the best of the best of the best.

1:03:05And he said, it's never proven me wrong. And it was just, that was his, you know, he could just simplify things in truisms that were not truisms. They were really profound. But he had a good point. You're so lucky to have had that, Victor. I'm so jealous. That's an amazing friend. He's a wonderful person. He really was. So was Shelby Steele. They were my two best friends at Hoover. And they still are. You have good taste. All right, wait, let's keep going. I've got another one for you. I don't want to exhaust you because I know you're still recovering from a very serious illness. But you look great and you sound great.

1:03:40Thank you. The person who tried to assassinate Justice Kavanaugh has been given an eight-year prison sentence. We knew this. That's kind of old news. His name is Niklas Roski. But part of the reason why Niklas only got an eight-year sentence for trying to assassinate a sitting Supreme Court justice to stop him from ruling on the Dobbs case, which overturned Roe versus Wade, is that Nicholas is now Sophie. And the sentencing judge factored that in to her decision. Her name is Judge Deborah Boardman. She's a Biden appointee. And she specifically said, she's a former public defender. And she specifically said that she was taking Roski's oh-so-convenient newfound transgender status into account.

1:04:39Quote, I take into consideration the conditions of pretrial confinement and the fact that she is a transgender woman, meaning a man, and will be sent to a male-only Bureau of Prisons facility. The judge questioned whether Roski would receive adequate mental health treatment in federal prison, saying, quote, let's not hide the fact that there's an executive order on this specific topic. She was annoyed that Trump is making prisons great again with men staying with the men and women staying with the women. So to its credit, the DOJ did something it rarely does on sentencing. It appealed. It appealed to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals saying this was such a downward deviation from the federal sentencing guidelines that it has to be taken up, that normally this person would have gotten a few decades in prison.

1:05:37And because he now says he's a she, he only gets eight years in prison. This is absolute madness. And they're hashing it out. They say it's, yeah, 22 years below the bottom of what the guidelines recommended for this guy. So the minimum sentence the guidelines recommended was 30 years. This guy got eight. Now the judge said, well, he turned himself in. The prosecution said he did that because he saw two marshals standing outside of Justice Kavanaugh's house and knew that he was about to get caught. And this judge, of course, you're not gonna be surprised to hear a federal public defender, a former public defender, didn't buy the prosecution's argument, said, oh, gee, What a good person.

1:06:22He turned himself in. No, she turned herself in. This is this guy was a man when he did it. Like they all suddenly become female when they're facing prison, but whatever. And now it also turns out that this is a furry. He's a he's a furry in addition to all of his other issues, reports the Daily Wire. and I think this is actually a great move by the DOJ, even though they're with the Fourth Circuit, which used to be more conservative, but now has a bunch of libs on it. They have to challenge this kind of nonsense, do they not? Yeah, they do, and it's part of a larger trend where the left has been at, when I was growing up, there was the Warren Court, and they loved, they worshiped the Supreme Court.

1:07:07They said, you know what, the legislature, the Senate and the House are just retrograde, and thank God for the Warren court. Now they despise it because it has a conservative, but they do things that no one on the right would ever do. I mean, part of this was Chuck Schumer going out in front of the doors of the Supreme Court while it was in session and saying, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, you sowed the wind, you're going to reap the whirlwind. You don't know what's going to hit you. A few months later, all these people started showing up, And that is, I think, a misdemeanor, if not a felony in some cases, to show up and try to affect a Supreme Court case at a justice's home.

1:07:47But nobody was indicted for that at all. And then when you look at the way the hearings have gone with Clarence Thomas, that was just an abject character assassination. Kavanaugh, we know now the whole thing was a joke, Susan Blasey Ford. It was all nothing to it. Christine. Yeah, Molly Hemingway demolished that. So it's just that, and now we hear, of course, even the character assassination, the threats to the justices, the leaking about the Dobbs case, all of that is still not enough. And we're told that this new Democratic Socialist Party, they're going to pack the court along with, they think they're going to get rid of the Electoral College by the National Voters Compact.

1:08:31They're going to bring in two states, they say, Puerto Rico and make Washington, D.C., a state. If they are still in the minority, they're going to try to, I don't know, eliminate the filibuster. They won't be able to do that. And now we're even talking, the latest thing is they want to, I think one of the socialist candidates for House wants to turn the Senate into the House. In other words, it's not fair that senators represent states rather than demography, and they want them to be popular. 20 senators in California, zero in Wyoming, that kind of stuff. So what I'm getting at is they know they're— You know who they don't want to make a state, Victor?

1:09:12Cuba. No. They don't want Cuba to join as our 51st state. No. And the thing is that their agenda does not appeal to people. They know that on the border, on crime, on draw, any of that doesn't appeal. And we hear that right out of the mouth of Bill Ayers. So they always want to change the system. They always want to change the system or they want to alter the demography. You know, when they opened the border, they actually wrote books that said, the new democratic majority, our demography is destiny. And then as soon as anybody conservative said, yeah, you're right. They said, you're racist, you're a nativist, you buy into the great racial theory and all this stuff.

1:09:55But that's what they were doing with the 10 ,000 people a day. And it all gets back to the idea they don't have a resonant message. It's contrary to human nature, the communist socialist message. And so they're always trying to finagle the system or change it. Yeah, anything will do. They tell us we're not allowed. I mean, for years on YouTube, you couldn't say that transgenderism was a mental illness. They would strike it, strike your video. You could get deplatformed or demonetized. Now this guy is using his gender dysphoria as part of the mental illness that allows him a lower sentence. He's trying to say, I'm not a well person.

1:10:39I have gender dysphoria. I have depression. Okay, depression is not a reason to get out of a severe sentence. And by the way, so this is how he describes himself. He put out a classified ad calling himself a male to female pet for owner. I want to wear nothing but a collar, ears, and tail plug and communicate only through my body what I want. he wrote. And another thing, his play partners, quote, pretty kinky, have a fetish account and everything. If you are not a cis man, chances are I am interested in playing with you. This is this person. So instead of being treated as a very bizarre, disturbed, but sane person who should be sentenced per the guidelines on trying to assassinate somebody, this radically left judge, Biden appointee decided to play the small violin for him.

1:11:38And the New York Times assisted back to the media and their complicity. Here's what the New York Times described as Roski, a man, again, was in court on sentencing day. They use Ms. I refuse to use this. I'm going to change the pronouns back to what they actually are. But they keep saying Ms. and she. Okay, but I'm changing them. Mr. Roski, wearing yellow prison scrubs and ankle shackles, apologized to Justice Kavanaugh and to the judiciary as a whole for contributing to the fear judges experience as a result of doing their jobs. He spoke in a halting voice, fighting back tears and leaning on his counsel's table, sitting behind him in the gallery where his parents and younger sister.

1:12:28And then I remember at this thing, they took testimony from his mother talking about how like she hadn't been attentive enough to his gender issues. Like we're talking about the possible assassination of a sitting Supreme Court. Again, Victor, if that justice had been Elena Kagan or Ketanji Brown Jackson on the eve of the Dobbs decision, we would not be hearing about their childhood trauma or their tears in the courtroom. No, if somebody had threatened either one of those liberal justices and then claimed at his sentencing that he was trans and wanted a lighter sentence, they would have said, well, we have a whole century of sexology research from Havelock Ellis to Masters and Johnson.

1:13:21And it's described in the literature as 0.01 % to 0.001 % of people who have a biological problem. But it's very, very rare. And that's true. It's denoted in antiquity. I mean, Catullus wrote a poem about changing your sex by castration. And it's in Petronius the Satiricum. But my point of all this, Megan, it was always recognized as a very rare phenomenon. Not 20 % of a student body saying in college and some polls that they're considering transitioning. It became a cultural fad. Almost every Hollywood celebrity wanted to talk about a child who might be trans. And for the left, it was a new civil rights movement.

1:14:08They said, well, you know what? We've got all the legislation for civil rights. We've got all the affirmative action, DEI. but we have to find, and we have gay marriage, we've got to find a new, oh, it's the trans community. And then they exaggerated the numbers. They just didn't look at years of prior research, and they just created this myth that, you know, it's one out of 10 people are transgender or... Right. But you also know, Victor, I could have sat here with you a year ago and said, all right, Victor, knowing nothing about the case other than this. On the one side, a man claiming he's a woman and wearing a dress and saying he's a furry.

1:14:48On the other side, a conservative U.S. Supreme Court justice named Brett Kavanaugh. In the middle of the case is the decision to overrule Roe versus Wade. What is this trans person likely to get as a sentence? the minimum the maximum or something else you would have you would have said below the minimum you would have said that just based on absolutely nothing other than that absolutely and when i looked at susan blassey was that her name susan blassey ford christine excuse me i i looked at that none of her story made sense no even her friends couldn't corroborate the story she was obviously at times disturbed she said she was afraid of flying she had a record of flying She had been coached.

1:15:38And I said to myself, they're almost going to win this case because they had all of the leftist money. She was a cause. As soon as it was over, it was all revealed. It was kind of just constructed. It was like E. Jean Carroll. She was a heartthrob. Remember her? E. Jean Carroll. And none of her stories. She couldn't remember what year the supposed assault took place. She couldn't remember what dress because it hadn't even been made yet. She couldn't get any of the story. Then that Law and Order had an episode where it was almost the same thing as she was in the same department store. And then she had apps about how to break up people's marriages.

1:16:20And then she was bragging that one of her favorite— She named her cat Vagina. Yes, and she said one of her favorite actors was Donald Trump, and she loved The Apprentice. This was 10, 15 years. And then finally, I thought, nobody's going to believe this. And then they had a bill of attainder, which is, you know, better than I, is unconstitutional. And the New York legislature had said, well, for one year, there's no statute of limitations for sexual assault claim. And then she heard her story. They heard her coming out with it. They realized she was up against the statute of limitations. They were like, oh, we have an idea.

1:16:51We'll just change the law. And now this same half of the country, you know, the far left on the left side, will lecture us about how, you know, Donald Trump is acting extra judicially, an abusive process at the DOJ. Just stop. Please stop. Because some of us remember what happened during the Biden four years. Last but not least, I have a weird one. That's basically the theme of the book I wrote, The Counter-Rewind. I had been when I started it. I didn't realize how bad it was. I knew it was bad, but I go through all of those cases, Alvin Bragg, Latina James, that's half the book. And then I looked at all of the media accounts, and then I looked at the polls.

1:17:35And what the weird thing was, every time he had the one mugshot, every time Jack Smith gave a press conference, every time somebody said he was going to be, his polls went up. His polls went up. And it just reminded me that for all the physical abuse that he took and how this was all constructed, then it was beneficiary. People really did get sick of it. And the funny thing is I said to myself, this must have been all constructed out of the White House, even though they were local state prosecutors. Then I found out that three days after he announced that he was going to run for President Meghan, Nathan Wade was in the White House talking to the White House.

1:18:23When does a Fulton County prosecutor go to the White House? That same day, Merrick Garland, the same day appoints Jack Smith as special prosecutor. The same day Latita James is logged in at the White House. The same day, Michael Colangelo, the third highest guy in the DOJ who had just come there from Alvin Bragg's case, leaves that prestigious job to go work for Alvin Bragg. All there three days afterwards. So the whole when they I only mentioned that because when they mentioned lawfare or what would have happened or the DOJ now, that was all one of the most egregious examples of coordinating state, local, county, federal prosecutors to destroy a political opponent after he had announced that he was going to run for president.

1:19:12Oh, it's a late it's a late discovery of conscience by the left side when they don't like it being done to them. By the way, one of the things that they were very upset about was the John Bolton indictment. He pleaded guilty. OK, so that's that one. All right. I know you got to go, but I just have to mention this because I mentioned it in the tease and it just it came in as we went to air. I do think this is an ongoing story. Christy Noem still has a government post and her husband has not backed off of his bizarre antics one bit from the look of it. Victor, he's laughing. I'm glad to make you laugh.

1:19:46You need a couple of laughs. I do. She's special envoy, we all do, for the Shield of the Americas. And now the Daily Mail, which broke the story about her cross-dressing husband to begin with, Brian, he's still at it. They're reporting he is still at it, that he messaged bimbo dominatrix, that they like this label and this weird fetish field, the bimbofication fetish. They've been messaging each other. So they report Brian continued to message a dominatrix after his fetish was revealed by the Daily Mail, according to the bimbo, who is a sex worker. She goes by Shai Sotomayor. I wonder if there's any relation.

1:20:30I'm going to guess no. I don't think so. She allegedly had a nine-year relationship with Brian Noem. He married Christy right after high school, so obviously while he was married to her. and she claimed on this podcast that he reached out to her just last month. Hold on. Where is that? Uh, yeah, here it is. Let's play it. This is her on a podcast. You posted to X on June 15th that you quote, can't keep Brian out of your DMS. Um, how recently has he DM'd you and what is he saying to you? May 17th. He texted me on iMessage. He's like, I've, I've been a really bad boy. I'm like oh I know I know you've been a bad boy and then he started talking to me directly on whatsapp and I had a long talk with my husband and I was just like you know what I feel like this is truly a sick man I feel like he has a sex addiction and that's not something I would want to take advantage of so I was just like you know what I'm gonna send Brian a message I sent him a very long message saying you know brian i thought really hard on this you obviously are very sick you need help if it's not clear by now or after being america's joke i truly don't know what is but i've came forward with my story about you this is just kind of me saying goodbye if you find another girl who does want to talk to you during this i'm like shame on both of you you need to get better Okay.

1:22:05Victor, when Shai Sotomayor is calling you sick and saying you need help, you've reached rock bottom. Yeah, I thought, wow, here's somebody who's a dominectus is all of a sudden lecturing about psychological disorders, and her appearance convicts her. But, you know, just a final thought, there is something tragic about this, because I remember Christy Noem when she was a House member, and she was pretty good and as a governor she and then all of a sudden she she had altered her appearance her the dress was inappropriate for her job at homeland security cory was involved but i didn't know about we didn't know about the husband but it all i don't know whether it was always there but it just seemed that it was a tragedy that once she got into national prominence all of the characteristics that had promoted her and propelled her good governance sober behavior the way she dressed was kind of you know attractive but conservative and then all of a sudden it was like a glamour tour and then the personal problems with her boyfriend it just it just all imploded it's it's kind of a moral story about power and and celebrity i'm quoting barack obama remember He just said that I'm not interested at the dedication.

1:23:23He said one thing we've got to remember is life's not about influence, celebrity, and money. I'm thinking you're worth$100 million. You work for Netflix. You can't keep out of the cameras. You get$400 ,000 for a lecture, and you always fly in when no one really needs you for you to lecture somebody. But it was almost as if every time Obama, just to finish, every time he lectures on morality, it's always a psychological projection. You know that he feels that he's a hypocrite, so he's going to identify it in someone else and then condemn it. And that gives him absolution if somehow. But I don't know what happened to Christy Noem.

1:24:03And the weird thing, final, Megan, is that we didn't know really about her husband. We just saw those pictures. He was very religious and straight and a father. So we all thought that he was the victim of this purported affair. And then it turns out that whatever he was doing, it was so much more bizarre than her. He may have been the cause of it. Yes. And you combined it. It was really tragic. It really was. I know. No, it is tragic. What's even more tragic is poor Shai Sotomayor issued him an invoice for$4 ,500. And he hasn't paid it, Victor. You got to pay your debts, especially you're going to put on those enormous fake boobs.

1:24:42You got to pay. And you're going to wear the tidy little pants as Brian Noem. You got to pay your debts because, you know, what's going to happen is exactly what did happen. Those ladies are going to come out and they're going to spill the tea on you, Brian. And your rehab was a failure. It was a fail. You need to go back in and do a different facility, sir. Victor, it's wonderful to have you. Thanks for giving us so much of your time. I know you're still recovering and we're all praying for you. I'll be fine. Thank you, Megan. Appreciate it. See you. Good. Yeah, we're counting on it again. Victor's forthcoming book is titled The Counter Revolution, the fall and rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

1:25:20We will be sure to have Victor on and celebrate that when it hits up next, a deep dive into the new leads on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. There actually is a fair amount of news in this story today, and we'll tell you exactly what it is. I kind of can't believe what I've read this morning. Stand by. When you sign your insurance agency, for some brokers, that is the finish line. It's a handshake. They get their commission done. Then you may not hear again from them until it's time for renewal and they need your money and commitment again. It's not exactly a great relationship. Your business, however, runs all year.

1:25:56And so do the gaps and so does the risk and so do events for which you need insurance. And that is why I want to tell you about SuperSure. If your company has more than 25 employees, whether you are the owner, the CFO, or the HR manager, it can be too complex to just buy a policy online. SuperSure is the super agency built for you, licensed in every state for your business insurance and employee benefits, with year-round support for you and your team. At SuperSure.com, you can access tools like FinePrint Facts, which translates your current policy into plain English so that you see what's covered and what's not.

1:26:32plus a business value calculator so you can estimate what your business is actually worth and then know what really needs protecting. Go to supersure.com slash Megan. One super agency, one powerful platform, all your policies in one place, so convenient, so much easier to manage. Go to supersure.com slash Megan, paid for by Supersure Insurance Agency, LLC, which is a licensed insurance agency.

1:27:01new developments today in the nancy guthrie case multiple news outlets are now reporting that a second note we knew about this note we just didn't know exactly what was in it sent after her disappearance claimed savannah guthrie's mother was quote buried in nature seeming to indicate that she had passed away. The reporting prompted an emotional response from Savannah, who said her family is living in agony, and she pleaded with anyone with information to come forward. Now, as I mentioned at the top of the show, the person who lit this fire to his credit is our pal, friend of the show, Howard Bloom, who did such amazing reporting on the Idaho Four and has now for Air Mail, which is a publication started by Graydon Carter, formerly of Vanity Fair, along with a partner.

1:27:54He's reporting for them. And they turned him to the Nancy Guthrie case. So he had a first installment in his reporting not long ago. And this was the second installment in which he broke a bunch of exclusive details about that second ransom note, so-called ransom note, which may now we read it, it's been more of a like, just like an update from the one writer who Savannah had said she actually believed was the legitimate kidnapper. And now we're so thanks to Howard, we're learning all about what was in that note. And again, just just a point of order. But it is journalistic courtesy and professionalism 101.

1:28:32When someone breaks something big, like a new detail, and they have it exclusively, you have to credit them. when you report it. And like, I'm seeing all these reporters run out like it's their exclusive and like, you know, update on Nancy Guthrie colon. And then, you know, my sources tell me, okay, I get that you've matched Howard's reporting. You have to cite Howard. It's just, all right, sorry, enough about that. Joining me now to explain what all of this could mean for the case, Maureen O 'Connell. She's a 25 year veteran of the FBI and co-host of big city crime behind the red Tape and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent who now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group.

1:29:15Maureen James, great to see you both. So just want to get, we actually did talk about this because as I'm giving credit out here, we covered this in March when an X account that goes by nerdy addict actually did report some of these same contents from that second note. And we kind of laughed about it because we're not used to hinging our reporting on an X account with somebody who just goes by nerdy addict, right? But in our experience, nerdy addict has been right a lot in this case and clearly has developed their own sources. I think it's a he and the picture is of a man. And so we reported that some of this content, that the second note had said that Nancy had passed and moved on, but most people didn't touch it.

1:30:04And then Howard actually got it, you know, in reportable form. So clearly he had enough sources to actually put it down on paper and publish it, which he did and airmail did. And then it's it almost seemed like all these reporters had it up their sleeves, but didn't have permission to print it or whatever, because all of them started coming out saying, OK, we have it, too. We have it, too. We have it, too. And what here is what the reporting is that that first ransom note came. Guthrie disappeared on February 1st. This is Savannah Guthrie's mother. I think everybody knows this by this point out of Arizona.

1:30:39And she was in her home, Tucson overnight on a Saturday to a Sunday. She had seen her other daughter, Annie, and Annie's husband, Tomas, for some games earlier in the evening. Tomas brought her back home. She went inside. Next thing we know, she didn't show up at her home on Sunday morning at her friend's home where they all watched a church service every Sunday via remote, like via Zoom. She wasn't there. And then all hell broke loose. It was clear that she had been abducted. We later saw videotape of the presumed abductor at her door and a very scary ski mask and so on. So then ransom letters started to come in.

1:31:14And the question all along has been, were they legitimate? Is this the actual kidnapper? Savannah would later say she did believe those first two notes were from the actual kidnapper. At the time, local press reported, and Howard has matched the reporting, that the ransom note, the one that I'm about to start with, the first one, accurately described what Nancy Guthrie was wearing when kidnapped, accurately described where her Apple Watch was placed in her bedroom, and accurately described a broken floodlight on the exterior of the home. So February 2nd and 3rd, the mom goes missing February 1th.

1:31:53Second and 3rd, several media outlets, including TMZ, KGUN, and KOLD, those are two locals, received the first purported ransom letter, demanding millions in Bitcoin for her return. This note has a first deadline of 5 p.m. Thursday. Okay, again, she was stolen overnight Saturday to Sunday. uh now we get to tuesday and they're saying this thursday we want four million dollars or or else that the note explicitly used that term or else there was no proof of life um kld anchor mary coleman told cnn at the time a lot of it is information that only someone is who's holding her for ransom would know and some very sensitive information and things that people who were not there when she was taken captive would not know.

1:32:43Okay. February 4th comes along and Savannah and her siblings posted an Instagram message appearing to respond to the ransom. We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you. We are ready to listen. Please reach out to us. February 5th, which is Thursday, the deadline. The first ransom deadline comes and goes. Four million due by 5 p.m. They don't pay. February 6th, another note goes to just one of those three news sources, and it's local Tucson station, K-O-L-D. This is the one that, according to Howard Bloom, included language that he characterizes as an apology, and it led to Savannah and her siblings responding with a new video on Instagram, holding hands and saying, we received your message.

1:33:33We understand. We have it here. Let's just watch it. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay. Howard reports that they were responding to the message sent to KOLD alone that he reports as follows. Had the same IP address as the initial seemingly credible emails, and it transformed the entire course of the investigation. Quoting here, with its receipt, the task force investigating this case concluded with a stony resignation. The Nancy Guthrie case was no longer simply a kidnapping, but also a potential homicide.

1:34:28In this note, the contents of which were summarized by sources close to the case, the sender took a new, less confident tone. It opened with a sputtering and labored, quote, apology. That was the word used by a source close to this case for Guthrie's inadvertent death. It went harshly on, however, to offer up the transactional possibility that her body could be delivered for a sum, whether it would be the original four million or another amount apparently was never clarified. And now after Howard breaks that, guys, a bunch of people are matching the reporting and adding to it. There's some quibble about whether it was an actual apology in there, but confirming that that second note reported Nancy had died.

1:35:19Here's Brian Enten, among others, reporting on the note. And I want to read you this exactly because I wrote down exactly what I was able to get from my source. I am told that the second ransom note in the Nancy Guthrie case said that she died and that she was, quote, buried with nature now. And again, this is according to a source close to the investigation. The note indicated that Nancy's death was not intentional, but did not offer a direct apology. There's been some other reporting today from other people saying that it was an apology. I am told it was not a direct apology, but that it did indicate that the death was not intentional.

1:36:04Remember, we don't know whether any of these ransom notes are real. Savannah Guthrie has said in the past that she believes that the ransom notes, or at least some of them, are real. And one more, Maureen and James. Um, this is a reporter named Brianna Whitney. She works now for Crime Junkie, but was previously at another outlet covering this case. And, um, she said she's seen the note and described it here. Sot 56. I have spent months and months covering the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the ground. And in my former role, before I came to Crime Junkie, I was made aware of what these ransom notes said as I was reporting on the case.

1:36:45I've seen them with my own eyes. So I want to actually provide more context as to what that second note said. The way that this note was written, it's written as we, like we didn't know this, as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this. It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said, she perished shortly after she was taken. They believe that it was heart related. And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature.

1:37:19And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. So she, too, is reporting an apology, but that's not even like the most salient. The most salient point is that Nancy is dead, according to this person that she had died. And that's why you guys were right in your speculation when you heard Savannah's reaction that it sounded like an attempt to get back a body as opposed to a live person. But there's a lot in there. So let's go through it. Maureen, let me start with you, your reaction. Well, energetically, to your point about what we thought when we heard the Guthrie family respond to this, it was as if all the air was let out of their tires and you could just feel it.

1:38:07You could see it. It was clearly obvious. Now, with regard to these people saying, oh, nothing else could have happened. We never could have foreseen anything like this happening is just utter nonsense. Nancy was bleeding when she left that residence, which means she was probably struck in the face as an 84 year old woman. She was scared to a point where a 35 year old fit man could have a heart attack and die. So for them to say, you know, no one could have expected never intended to hurt her. Yeah, it's just it's just utter nonsense. They're murderers. They murdered her. Period. Yeah, it's just to reiterate again what Brianna reported.

1:38:48And again, I trust her because she says she has seen the note. This is not just reporting from somebody, James. This is her saying I had eyes on it. we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her condition. We never intended to hurt her. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome, but she did perish shortly after she was taken. And they say they also, we believe it was heart related quote. She's been buried with nature. Your thoughts. Oh, Hey, good to see you. It just continues with the unorthodox nature of this case. None of this, you know, every time we think we have stuff that adds up, it just doesn't.

1:39:29And there's little bits of information here that are interesting. You know, I, again, it's, I don't put a lot into the apology. A lot of people are saying that people that kidnap or murder can't apologize. Well, that's a pretty general statement. You know, I think it's just unorthodox. Again, I'm curious what happened between the, you know, real. And I agree with Maureen. When we saw that Instagram post with the family that you just played, it was pretty clear that something had changed within the investigation. And they were asking for the family to plead directly because they basically had no communication with the quote unquote kidnapper.

1:40:12And it was heartbreaking. And again, the case continues to be heartbreaking. And I feel terrible for these people. But what do you make of the attempts? We have about a minute left and then we'll carry over you guys after the break. But what do you make of the attempt to sound kind of like likable, Maureen? It sounds feminine to me. A lot of the verbiage is feminine. This buried with nature, it's like they're trying to comfort people. Why are you trying to comfort someone when you're - It does sound feminine. Doesn't it? A lot of this does. Yeah. Very good observation. Yeah. What guy is going to say, I, I'm, you know, I could have never foreseen this and nothing you could have done could have changed this.

1:40:56What that is neither here nor there. That has nothing to do with anything. Well, I'll tell you what could have changed it. You not breaking into the home of an 84 year old woman. There's a, there's a, uh, uh, you know, breaking headline for you. Exactly. All right. Stand by. Stand by. Hold that thought. So much more to do. Quick ad. Don't go away. Buy gold and put some silver in your pocket, too. I know what you're thinking. Everything is so expensive right now. So how am I going to buy gold? Well, let's pull our heads out of the sand. Take a look at the landscape. One thing you can control right now that does not cost you anything out of pocket is diversifying your retirement savings.

1:41:34Birch Gold Group can help you convert an old 401k from a previous employer or an IRA into a physical IRA in gold, something that can be a hedge against inflation. And listen to this, right now, Birch Gold is gonna give you a special America 250 one ounce silver round for every$10 ,000 you purchase by July 10th. Think about this, 10 years ago, an ounce of gold was about 1 ,200 bucks. Today, it's around 4 ,500. Where will it be 10 years from now? And will you have missed out? Text MK to the number 989898 to take advantage of free America 250 silver with qualifying purchase before July 10th. Again, just text MK to the number 989898 today.

1:42:33Send Odoo's down all the way. Fertilizer Magic Beans to harmonize your business. For business, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Tyler Reddick and Chumba Casino, a winning combination. Another checkered flag for Tyler Reddick in 2311 Racing, this time at Coda in the Chumba Casino Toyota Camry. That's three wins this season. Talk about a lucky streak. Chumba Casino, proud partner of Tyler Reddick and 2311 Racing. Play for free at Chumbacasino.com. Let's Chumba! No purchase necessary. VGW Group Voidware prohibited by law.

1:43:11See TNC's 21 Plus, sponsored by Chumba Casino. Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM. It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies. Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, link lauren maureen callahan emily joshinsky jesse kelly real clear politics and many more it's bold no bs news only on the megan kelly channel sirius xm 111 and on the sirius xm app

1:43:49i've seen them with my own eyes so i want to actually provide more context as to what that second note said the way that this note was written it's written as we like we didn't know this as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this. It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said, she perished shortly after she was taken. They believe that it was heart related. And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature. And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said, nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome.

1:44:31We are truly sorry. There it is again, reporting by now crime junkie reporter Brianna Whitney, who says she's seen that second ransom note or however you want to characterize it note from the alleged kidnappers of Nancy Guthrie and that it did include an apology, an announcement that she had died, a statement that we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her condition. We never intended to hurt her. She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it was heart related. She's been quote buried with nature and nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. Welcome back. We're discussing the latest with the Nancy Guthrie case with Maureen O 'Connell, a 25 year old veteran of the FBI and co-host of big city crime behind the red tape and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent who now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group.

1:45:29Yeah. So back, can we just like hit on the feminine point a little bit more, maybe expand on that? Like buried with nature. We never intended to hurt her. Even like she perished, perished. Was that word used? I wonder, because that's that jumped out at me. That's not really how people talk. And then the nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. Like, don't blame yourself. You know, like the weird. Yeah. Yeah. It's just very conciliatory and very strange considering the facts of this investigation, of this case, of this poor woman to talk this way. You know, any self-respecting criminal would at least be a little more honest about what happened here.

1:46:17they're trying to soften what they did and please don't blame yourself i hope you're not being too hard on yourself it's so weird well because i mean if you're following their logic they had said in the original note on february 2nd and again sunday was the first give us four million dollars by thursday or else again using the term actual or else and now here we are they haven't paid and they're writing the note saying she's gone. Oh, and by the way, there was nothing that you could have done to have changed the outcome. So they seem to be saying, you didn't give us our 4 million bucks, but don't worry, she was dead anyway.

1:46:58Even if you'd given us the money, it wouldn't have panned out for you. But if you want to give us money anyway, we could get the body back to you, I guess. Or at least maybe that's just still lurking out there. It's implied, it's not clear. And Brianna's description of it, no one's talking about, but that original, because the original note we know, James said, $4 million by Thursday,$6 million by the following Monday. If you wait, it's going to cost you more. Then comes the second note. Why would they send the second note like, hey, FYI, she died and don't blame yourself. What's the point of that?

1:47:33Well, it looks like they also didn't give any real particulars on how to get that$4 million to them. It doesn't sound like there was any clear communication given, you know, this is how you would respond to me, get back to me. And then they're just double tapping, hey, by the way, it's not worth it now because she's gone and we're sorry, but you can still give me some money because I get the body back to you. But I think you and Maureen are nailing a couple of really important things, you know, if true, that, you know, she's with nature instead of saying, you know, she's gone with God. I mean, if you're following the case, you know that, you know, that Nancy was a believer.

1:48:10And so that would track with her, you know, this note person saying it was a heart condition, which would track with if you're following the case, you know, about the pacemaker. But saying that she is buried with nature is interesting. That needs to be looked into. And there's plenty of people who are really smart and can put words together and study language. And really the context of a statement like that is that said in certain parts of the world. And certainly I hope the FBI is looking into something like that, because that's just a very interesting phrase. And then what you had said earlier, Megan, about, you know, we didn't realize the extent of her condition.

1:48:44It kind of drew me to one of the two things, which is, you know, I thought initially there was some preoperational surveillance, meaning they looked at the house and maybe even looked at her. and then whether or not that was because she was Savannah's mother or because it's in line with this nice house, nice theory. We were talking earlier about a crime gang hitting these nice houses, but still both would speak to pre-operational surveillance. And maybe that's what the note writer is alluding to is when we looked at it, we didn't realize she was that kind of old or fragile. And I thought that was very interesting.

1:49:22there's um reaction today from savannah herself who did address this on the today show this morning it's like you kind of forget that she's back doing her job without any resolution in this case which you know she has to do i'm you know we all have a job to do she has a job to do but like then this story is in the news again and she you know felt the need to respond for reasons. And here's what she said. The bravery and courage with which you have done this job every day since that happened. Nothing short of remarkable. Nothing short of remarkable. I love you guys and I love this place. And this is unusual and unprecedented to say the least to be sitting here.

1:50:02But, you know, I don't have any comment on the story and I'm not involved in our coverage. But I can't pretend I'm not here. And so since I am, I wanted to just take the opportunity to ask people, really to beg people to come forward. Somebody knows something. And this is a new story today that is on your radar, but this is the life that my sister lives, that I live, that my brother lives, that our extended families live, that our children live every day. And we are in agony. We cannot be at peace. How much I try to come out here every day and smile and find that joy, and I will, I promise I will.

1:50:42this is a moment to tell you that we need your help we're begging for your help and i'm not going to miss that opportunity and so please if you're watching yes no matter how small the reward is there you can tell us it can be anonymous please do the right thing for us for our family for our children and we love our mom and we'll never stop looking for her never I wish she had mentioned the reward too, because it's like somebody that, that the reward actually could motivate somebody to come forward. And, and that is something we should discuss because Howard's reporting. And I know Howard Bloom, he's very solid.

1:51:23Like he's, I don't know how he gets the information he gets, but he gets really good exclusives. And his reporting is that this task force that we've all discussed before, you know, that's what remains on the investigatory team now. And it's a combo of FBI and Tucson cops, detectives, that the task force has like expressed some regret from the sound of it about not paying the ransom, like that if they had just paid if the FBI had agreed to pay the ransom or tell Savannah to pay the ransom, that four million bucks in the beginning, that the FBI really feels confident in its ability to track the Bitcoin, James.

1:52:09You know, it's Bitcoin. So it's not just like cashing a check. It's going to be a lot harder to track it. But that at some point, you know, the Bitcoin has to be withdrawn or does the kidnapper no good. And so why didn't they just pay the four million and then track the Bitcoin and arrest the perpetrator because what he writes is that, and we had speculated about this, instead they decided to, quote, tickle the wire. And remember, we talked about how Harvey Levin had reported that there had been a$300 deposit made into the bank account of whomever wrote those first two notes into the Bitcoin account.

1:52:48And no one bit. No one touched it. Now he's reporting it's a different number, like$141 that was deposited, but it's neither here nor there. The point is the FBI, according to him, did in fact, this is the first confirmation we've had that it was the FBI who put the money in and that it was an attempt to tickle the wire, James. They thought maybe the kidnapper would be dumb enough to take it. And Howard reports that either, you know, either the kidnapper was like, nice try, right? And knew it was a trap or just wasn't interested in, you know, going, risking anything for 140 bucks. So your thoughts on whether they, they should have paid it.

1:53:28Like if they're really believing this note was legit as Savannah does, and her information definitely comes from them and that they had all these things, right about the Nancy scene and Nancy herself. And now we know more about what the two notes sounded like, like why didn't they just pay? It's because protocol. I mean, we got to remember that the reality is we still never had a proof of life ever. So the note, the first note, you know, didn't indicate anything like a picture of her anything. Yeah, we do have some information about the watch, but that would not be specific enough that the Bureau would say, yeah, just go ahead and launch$4 million.

1:54:10Because if you do, and you know, you don't get her back, because it's a scammer, then there's going to be more$4 million requests. And you're going to keep playing that game until you run out of money. And so that's why they don't do it is because if you don't have any, you know, real legitimacy, and the only way you can really get that legitimacy is you've got to show us this person that you say you have. They just can't do that. And that's, you know, and that's a question I ask too, you know, if they believe so much, but that protocol is there for a very good reason. And, you know, it might sound callous, but I agree that, you know, they shouldn't have paid the$4 million without an actual proof of life of Ms.

1:54:47Guthrie. I just don't understand, Maureen, what kind of a kidnapper. If you go with this is the kidnapper, what is the point? What is the point of on Thursday after they've missed the deadline, sending a follow up saying she's dead? She's dead now. We didn't intend to hurt her. It's not your fault. We think it was the heart. Nothing you could have done. What is the point? The point is they're amateurs and they and I have to first go back for a minute if I could to James, because if in fact they did pay the ransom without any proof of life, what precedent does that set set for every other person who's kidnapped?

1:55:31Everyone's going to jump out of the woodwork even more than they do right now, because you saw the predators pounce when that award. Can we really say there's no proof of life? I'm just going to play devil's advocate. When the first note allegedly said this is what she was wearing. This is where her Apple Watch was. And check out the broken floodlight on this part of the home. That's our proof that we have her and we were there. Is that qualified? That's more than saying nothing. Sure, but it's not enough to say that she's not dead. I mean, if you just consider how they transported her or how they had to transport her.

1:56:05So she's bleeding from presumably her mouth, which they already know by now because they've tested that blood to see if saliva was in it or whatever on the front porch. So she's bleeding from her mouth. She's 84 years old. She has no medication with her. She's very frail. She's scared to death. And there's no proof of life. they all they obviously spoke with their doctors they've talked with family members you could see from watching her on savannah show how frail she was so if they were doing pre-incident surveillance they saw her with a walker or a cane going very slowly around her backyard and when it's really hot and dry like that it's difficult to you could see someone breathing with labor it's it's you you know, you have to have proof of life.

1:56:51It's, it does sound callous again, to Jim's point, but it's, it's, I agree with it actually. I mean, like in negotiation, I mean, they teach you, I'm sorry, Megan. No, you go. Just in negotiation school. I mean, they teach, obviously we want to establish communication rapport, but we got to keep the goal in mind. And we both have the same goal here. I mean, I want to get her, if I'm working this as a negotiator and I'm talking to the kidnapper. Look, I want her back and you want to give her to me because you want your money. So we have a common ground here. But for me to get this money, because four million bucks, I don't have it laying around.

1:57:26I got to go get that. But before I go get it, can you prove to me you have her? And it can't be that you know there's a floodlight out that you could have got from a Google Earth overview or some previous story. Because Megan, you did a great job playing all the previous stories of interviews that Savannah had done with her mom, where I could have seen that Apple Watch. I could have seen the details of that inside of her bedroom. I could have told you the nightgown she likes to wear. I could have told you the color of her pillows. All things I would have got from, you know, open source. I wasn't the kidnapper, but I would have seen those things, you know, they were open to me.

1:58:00So what we would be looking for is give me something else, like prove to me you have her, which is why you always see the newspaper clipping, you know, the hostage holds the newspaper of the day. So we know, okay, we still have a live body and then we can negotiate. If you're fake, if this is a faker, okay, I'm with you. I get, I accept all that, but like, if you're a faker, why would you send that second? No, I can, I can actually kind of follow the real kidnapper might do it. Like if the real kidnapper has her, it's Tuesday night. Sorry. It's, it's the first was Sunday when she was taken, right?

1:58:35Yes. And then the notes came on the second and third. So you have her, you want the money. So you're sending out the notes on Monday and Tuesday saying 4 million by Thursday, 6 million if you wait till Sunday. And you offer enough detail in there to convince somebody you have her. This is what she was wearing. This is where the Apple Watch was. And this is what the floodlight looked like. Then you watch the world explode. over your note, all the speculation, all the stuff. And then let's not forget, one of the first things the Guthrie family said, Savannah in particular, right away was she desperately needs her medication.

1:59:13Like she said, she's not gonna survive without her heart medication. And we were never sure whether that was 100 % true or whether it was an attempt to ratchet up the urgency for the kidnappers. Like we need her back ASAP. Maybe it was 100 % true and she dies. So now she dies. so you can't give proof of life. There's no more life. You have Nancy, but it's a body now. And maybe by the time they sent this follow-up note on February 6th, that was the day after the ransom was due and not paid, maybe by that day, you decided to take a different tactic. You've got to fess up. You cannot provide proof of life.

1:59:54There's not going to be any talking to Nancy or pictures of Nancy holding the daily paper. So you decide to come clean saying she's dead. But I don't know whether it's explicit in here, according to that Brianna, it's not. But maybe the theory is the earlier demand will stand and maybe they will pay us for the return of the body. And indeed, that is what Savannah responds with. So that makes sense to me. But if you are a fake kidnapper, just trying to get Bitcoin, four million or six million that second note makes no sense oh well i don't i mean i'm surprised you haven't been through this because i know i have and i think probably maureen has too but when someone's trying to get something from you they just keep trying they don't stop right they're incessant about it it never ends they just keep coming and so they hang on for anything and that's why you send the second note is oh maybe i say the right things maybe i sound like you all had said earlier, maybe if I sound apologetic or I sound sympathetic, that maybe you'll send me some money because I have nothing right now.

2:01:01If I'm a scammer, I have no money right now. Maybe I can get a hundred grand from you if I tell you where the body is. And that's typical 101 fraudster mentality and methodology. That's exactly what they do. So the second note doesn't surprise me at all. You wouldn't expect them to write the second note, ratcheting it up. Like she's hurting, you know, she's scared, which by the way, uh, someone, I think it was Harvey reported was in the first note that she was scared. She's okay, but she's scared. And then, you know, so the second, no, you, you ratchet that up, get, get Savannah upset. She's the one with the deep pockets.

2:01:39Like, let's scare her as opposed to run the risk of her being like, well, I'm not paying $4 million for, you know, somebody who may or may not have a body. Well, no, notice it worked because she went on Instagram the next day on the 7th saying, Hey, we hear you and we'll pay. So what happened? That's the good question is, okay, what happened from the Instagram post to this, you know, IP address? Why was there no more contact? Right? What, what happened then? Cause there's no one reporting on any of that question. Nobody. Right. So what happened? Maureen, did you want to weigh in? Because I have another thing I want to bring up, but you go first.

2:02:17We're missing a lot of pieces of information. And without them, it's going to be hard. But I think part of what happened with the second note is they're trying to take their foot off the gas. They're trying to make the situation a little less explosive. And by that, I mean they're trying to turn down the temp. Right now, everybody's full steam ahead. Everyone's looking for, they're out searching for. It's peddled to the metal, every single law enforcement agency. And they just wanted to just pull that back a little bit. And by saying that she's gone, by saying that she's out in nature, what does that mean?

2:02:56It means they're going to, so we don't have to worry about writing warrants for houses right now. I mean, it just sends the investigation in a totally different direction and away from someone. And the final thing about this is a lot of this in the verbiage here is someone who cares. You know, we always said from the beginning that this is someone that that had some nexus to Nancy. This this person is trying to say that they care because that might, as Jim said, that James said, that might get them to pay. But they're just predators. They're just going to do whatever they can to get someone to pay them.

2:03:37Okay, here's what I find interesting, among other things about this. Harvey Levin, as you know, Sheriff Harvey, as our friend Zach Peter calls him, he got the first ransom note, but not the second. Then he started getting targeted by some other person who also wanted Bitcoin. And this person was like, I know where she is and I know who has her and revealed that it was south of the border. But like wouldn't say more and was like, give me half the Bitcoin up front and half later. It was that kept changing. And we all kind of thought this person was a fraudster. Maybe left a few percentage points open for the fact that maybe not, but did not sound legit.

2:04:26But Harvey, he he he came out and laid out some updates on TMZ about that person and Harvey's discussions with the FBI around that person. OK, just listen to we cut it way down, but listen to what we have here. Now, there is a reference to Nancy Guthrie not being alive anymore, but that is from the person who sent us multiple emails saying that he knows or knew where Nancy Guthrie was and where the kidnappers were. And he wanted money in return for information. We passed that along to the FBI as we did the ransom note. But this person kept sending us emails. And early on, he said time is of the essence.

2:05:26And then a few days after the kidnapping, he said time is no longer of the essence, meaning she wasn't alive. So that's where that came from. Not the people who kidnapped her, but from the person who was sending us these notes. Now, that person wanted effectively$100 ,000. This person also said that he was afraid that he might be implicated. He had a burglary on his record from, I think he said, 11 years before. and apparently he knew these kidnappers well enough that he was afraid he might be implicated. So the FBI never paid that money. I was always confused about that. I called the FBI back and I said, look, what if TMZ does a documentary and that we try and get in touch with this guy and even pay the money And if he takes us to the location, then you get resolution.

2:06:37The Guthrie family gets resolution. And if he scams us, he scams us. But I just had this real feeling that it might be real. And I've called a half a dozen times since over the last couple of weeks. And I've gotten nothing back. For some reason, the FBI has gone radio silent on me. So that's another question. Why not just try to pay that one off and see if it leads anywhere? Because that person, too, for whatever it's worth, was saying time is of the essence, which kind of tracks with the first ransom note we were just discussing, which we believe is from somebody else. Savannah says she believes the legitimate kidnapper.

2:07:24And then the reversal days later of she's gone. And according to Harvey's person, time is no longer of the essence. And this person wouldn't have known none of that reporting about the second, you know, ransom note saying she's perished and she's been buried with nature. that was not yet public. So, you know, if this guy, you could make the case that maybe this guy did know the actual kidnappers and maybe all of this is real. Maybe the first two notes are from the real kidnapper and maybe this guy really did know the real kidnapper and we should have, instead of putting 300 bucks or$140 in the Bitcoin account, should have actually taken Harvey up in his offer to put the half of the Bitcoin into the account and take the loss, you know, is what 45 ,000 bucks at one point, like he's basically saying to the FBI, Maureen, I will pay it.

2:08:21I will suck it up. And they aren't getting back to him. So what's the story there? Well, maybe just as is the case with you, Megan, maybe the FBI was tired of dealing with her. Yeah, exactly. Sheriff Harvey. That's right. I think they're I think they're close right now to pull in this case together. And that's what my sources are telling me. What? Yeah, things are happening. But one of the reasons it's taking so long is because whatever defense attorney takes this investigation and represents whoever they charge in this case, you have to operate under the assumption, like from day one, you're doing your trial prep practically.

2:09:04Everything you do is geared toward trial and prosecution. And if you're going to have the greatest defense attorney in the world handling this case, whoever takes this case. So you have to operate under the assumption that a couple of big chunks of your evidence may get tossed. So you have to put a case together in such a way that it would withstand losing some some of these chunks of evidence, depending on how you got them or how vulnerable they might be to getting tossed. So I think they're just working on these other chunks of evidence, shoring them up even more. But I think we're getting closer.

2:09:44I actually really do think they're getting closer. And one thing when, you know, when James talks about being a negotiator and he talked about every time a kidnapper puts out a ransom note, just the words have all kinds of implications. And so the same holds true for FBI agents when we speak to people on the outside. If we talk to them and there's optimism in our voice and we sound upbeat and we don't want to answer questions, the person we're talking to could say, wow, they're probably closer than we think they are. And that's when I go to ground and I don't talk to anybody else. When I feel like I'm getting there.

2:10:25And I don't know, James, what do you think about that when you're getting kind Wait, wait, no, wait. I love James, but we're not moving on. Sorry. And O 'Connell. Yeah. Why? Could you just expand on why you think they're wrapping, like they're getting there, that they're close to making an arrest? I think they're getting close to the porch guy. And when they, when they get the porch guy, the floodgates shall swing open. What's your level of confidence on that? 75 percent maureen that's big news i know i'm like that's huge if big if true as the kids say by the way it does it raises something else howard bloom said in his reporting that he wrote he wrote that they are thinking it was a group effort like at least two at this point because he reports they think the person writing about the Bitcoin was sophisticated, that the letters, the words, the English, the diction, whatever, was sophisticated, and that the guy on the porch to them seemed too bumbling to be the author.

2:11:49And again, that they may think that those two notes are authentic. They may think. I don't know that. I'm going off of what I said before. Savannah thinks so, and her info would have come from them for sure. And Harvey reported that the FBI was taking those notes very seriously. So that they're thinking the bumbler on the front porch, alleged bumbler, there's a difference of opinion there, is not the person who did the Bitcoin account and wrote the sophisticated notes and is talking about, perished, she perished, and she's she's with nature, she's married in nature and all that. Like I actually, that tracks to me, that tracks that it might not be the same person.

2:12:29I don't know. James, your thoughts on Maureen's just dropping a bomb on us here on our casual update in the case. Well, leave it to Maureen, you know, to bring the great news. And I, I certainly pray that she's right and that there is some closure and all that. I would be over the moon if we actually had an arrest in this case, and I would be very, very happy about that. I did want to go back, Megan, to your question with regards to Harvey and this second individual who has some information. The reason the Bureau puts out a reward is so that we can get money to people who have useful information.

2:13:09And so as he started going down that road as to why the individual didn't like that idea, it sounded very criminal to me. And I mean, you know, Maureen and I, for more than 50 plus years, we talked to criminals on a daily basis. And so when he double taps with, well, I have a burglary 11 years ago, that's just nonsense, okay? He doesn't want to go to the bureau because he's probably full of crap, right? That's just the reality of it. He's making up excuses. There's no, there's nothing that says we can't give you the reward if, even though you've had some criminal conviction years ago, as long as you weren't involved in the crime.

2:13:44So I just think that he sees Harvey as an easy mark and wants some publicity and wants a little bit of money. And the reason to answer your question pointedly as to why the Bureau doesn't let Harvey just pay the money, well, it didn't sound like they told him no, they just gave him the Heisman. They just basically said, we're moving on. We got more important things to do. And if Harvey wants to pay the guy, go right ahead. He'll probably lose the money, but it'd be a good story for him. But again, we just can't be in the business of giving money out to people that are chasing stories. It just doesn't work that way.

2:14:17And it's not a professional way to operate. One of my favorite lines of all time, James, giving them the Heisman. Like that? I love it. Yeah. What about, I'm going back to look at the Harvey notes, his special line of notes. not not the receipt of the first ransom note but this other person who's like they're in Mexico and I know who they are now that's the first he's revealed that the person had a burglary conviction I had not heard that before so the person's admitting that they have a record or maybe Harvey Harvey doesn't have an identity on them so no the person must have admitted in the notes that he has a burglary conviction so you know that kind of increases his credibility you hang out with criminals.

2:15:02You are a criminal. More likely that you're hanging out with the criminals, maybe. Well, fun fact, Megan. But I'm going back. Well, I'm trying to figure out, Maureen, when did that guy write, time is of the essence? And when did he write, time is no longer of the essence? Because if it tracks exactly the first note and the second note from the other guy, then that is kind of interesting. Doesn't that increase the chances that the second Harvey guy might actually have known what he was talking about. Well, Maureen hit it, but I want to come back to it if I can. Sure. Yeah. When he says time is of the essence and he doesn't get a response, then, I mean, he just realizes that's not going to work, so he's going to go to plan C or D.

2:15:47And then the only other quick thing is if someone admits to us that he's got a burglary wrap in his jacket, guaranteed he's got five other charges also. Right. And I wrote it down as you were as you were playing that, Megan, I wrote it down because when you work fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, you know, stuff we work forever. It's always critical. Like time is of the essence. They always create this urgency, right? When they want to get money from somebody, it has to happen right now. There can't be any slowdown in the process at all. And they always hit the people with urgency. And so when I heard that, I was like, yep, that's typical fraud 101.

2:16:28I don't know. Yeah, consider the success of all the fraud against elderly people. I've got your granddaughter right here. And a young girl screaming in the background, get to the bank, withdraw money, drop it off here. You can't believe the people that go along with that. When you charge it with emotion and you put a time stamp on it and you push, push, push, this is what they do. Well, it would. OK, so I was pursuing what if it's real? What if that's the real kidnapper? And this is a real guy who knows the kidnapper. And they're all they're writing the same thing. Times of the essence. It's not of the essence.

2:17:06What if it's not if it's not real? Neither one's real. Then what you're saying is actually really smart and really interesting, too, because you're you got two bad guys behaving exactly the same way at the same time. Right. Then you got two. We presume to. There's still the possibility is this is the same person. But you got two bad guys who are like, emergency, emergency. I'm in on it and I know things. No response. It's not an emergency, but I might be able to help you out a little. Like just mention the guy. You seem to be saying, James, this is like tried and true. You've seen a million of these where they do exactly.

2:17:42And just think about the conduit. It's TMZ. Right. Why go there? If you really have useful information, first of all, you're going to the family. I mean, every kidnap and Iver worked, they called the family. They didn't call TMZ. They didn't call the local news station. They called the family and said, hey, we got your kid. We want the money. That's how it works. I mean, it's just, again, I think I said this the first time I was with you, how unorthodox this thing has been, the communication through TMZ or your local news. I mean, you go direct to that family. And certainly, if you know it's Savannah Guthrie, you go to her directly.

2:18:18Hey, here you go. I want my money. And again, I just I smell fraud and it's good publicity for TMZ, you know, and that's why they keep going there. And he's getting a good story out of it. I wish he had kind of paid it to see what would happen. He probably would have been out that money. Probably. Right. Right. And we know that there was yet a third party, not to be confused with these first two parties, that that came in with a demand for ransom that went directly to Annie Guthrie's phone. That guy's he's been caught and he's going on trial, I think, soon for doing that. But my point is simply Annie Guthrie's number must be pretty easy to get, or at least at that time must have been pretty easy to get.

2:19:01if some loser criminal was able to do it and text her, I've got your mother, you know, whatever. So if these kidnappers, you know, wanted to reach directly to the family, seems like they could have done it. You know, this Nimrod did it with Annie. You don't have to go through Savannah, whose number is definitely going to be protected, but Annie Guthrie seemed accessible and they didn't do it. They went through TMZ just to bolster your point. You were going to say something, Maureen. I couldn't agree with you more. That's Derek Colella from Hawthorne, California. and I looked up when that story first hit, I tried to find their contact information and I was able to find even some scrapings of it for both Tommaso and for Annie because they're small business people and they're in the area and he's a teacher and parents, whatever.

2:19:49I could see that. I could also see some people are saying, why didn't they reach out to Savannah? Well, as you mentioned, Savannah obviously is gonna be impossible to get a direct line into. So I agree with exactly what you're saying. Derek Colella's hearing, by the way, is July 2nd. And that's going to be interesting, Megan, because after July 2nd, his case will be adjudicated, considered adjudicated. And once that happens, if there is anything more to the Derek Colella saga and this case, he's going to be able to then he'll be free to work with the prosecution. So if anything is going to come out of that, it'll come out after July 2nd.

2:20:35Hmm. I just went back to the nerdy addict report that we had in March and that we discussed on this show. Again, it dovetails with a lot of what we've heard today. But I just want to read you what nerdy reported at the time. I now have two sources confirming that one of the letters sent to the media in the Nancy Guthrie case allegedly states the sender apologized, claiming they. So that's now Howard Bloom, this Breanna Whitney, now of Crime Junkie and nerdy, all saying that that the that there was an apology. Again, unclear to me whether they're saying there was an explicit I'm sorry or just the tone of the letter was an apology.

2:21:19um howard bloom puts apologize in quotes that that's what he was told and brianna who saw the note says that it includes an apology but okay for whatever it's worth he says the sender apologized claiming they did not realize how serious her heart condition was and that she has quote gone to be with god now that's different no one else is referencing gone to be with god we're buried with nature is where we are. I can kind of see how you might confuse those two. I don't know. They're both sort of ethereal or an ending of sorts. I don't know. We'll see. According to these sources, investigators believe the message came from the same individuals who previously demanded Bitcoin, though this latest letter reportedly made no demands and was framed solely as an apology.

2:22:10While this has been validated by two independent sources, it has not been publicly released or confirmed by the media. And then came Howard Bloom. So that's, I don't, I just find that interesting. Like, why does he have gone to be with God and the new ones don't have that, that it was, I don't know, she was buried in nature. But in any event, that too confirmed back in March how serious her heart condition was and that they didn't realize it. So this, what's your bet now maureen having heard all this that savannah's right that this probably these first two really were from the kidnapper and that this is the actual kidnapper either saying she's going to be with god or buried in nature but feeling bad about it or at least trying to convince savannah and co that he or she feels bad about it is that your bet that these are legit or no i would say savannah and possibly the authorities are wrong i would say they might be legitimate in that someone knows someone close to them, overheard them, a girlfriend to some of the guys that took her, something along those lines.

2:23:16Just because of the position of that Apple watch, people say that that was so specific that you really could not have been able to know that. And it's not like seeing it on the nightstand. It's something like they ripped it off her wrist and they threw it and it landed something like under the dishwasher in the kitchen, some random spot that you would not know that unless you were in that room, you know? Well, the other thing is the pajamas. Like, I don't think you actually could know what pajamas Nancy owned from what we saw on the Today Show. That's the one thing. I agree with you, James, on the Apple Watch and the Floodlight.

2:23:53You could get both of those if you were a contractor inside the house, potentially, if the Apple Watch were just in a generic place, you know, like, she charges, you see where the charger is, and that's where she charges it, and you're there as the cleaner and you mark that in your mind. But what pajamas she had, that would be something, you know, you'd have to be her housekeeper, basically, I think, to know that. And what pajamas she was wearing when she was abducted, that would convince me. Did you have that? I think. Do you have that somewhere? Yeah, that's what they're reporting, that Howard is actually just referencing back to earlier reporting that they knew what she was wearing, that the outfit correctly described what Guthrie had been wearing.

2:24:42That's how he phrases it. And they went further and said she didn't have her slippers with her or something too. Remember, Megan, way back? Yeah, yeah, that's right. So that, if that, if, and we don't know, but if they had that, that would convince me too. um what do you make of the possibility that this is more than one person maureen and the theory that porch man is not the sophisticated bitcoin and letter writer well with regard to the sophistication of that letter i've said from the beginning that you know chat gpd does great job you could i mean even if you had to translate it for example and then say make it sound more sophisticated, you can do that and it does it fine.

2:25:28And I know that Harvey said, oh, it doesn't look like chat GPT. I'm not sure how he would know that, but okay, he does have a tech team.

2:25:38So I think that it's been my opinion since the beginning that it's probably two people because any more than two, you're just exponentially increasing your risk. But Jim Clemente, the Fitz's old partner, he and also an FBI profiler, he said he's seen no evidence that there's more than one person. So I've been he's been trying to train my brain to think that the possibility does exist, that it could just be one person. If it is one person, they had to use some sort of a dolly to move the body. It's just too heavy. Even if she was slightly ambulatory, It's, you know, she was bleeding, presumably from her face.

2:26:19And so, and you're going to have to do something to restrain her if you're going to put her in a car and take her someplace. And to your point about the kidnappers and Mexico and stuff like that, the vast majority of the kidnappings that we see in this country are drug related. And by that, I mean someone has a load of dope and they get pulled over by police and the dope gets seized. Whoever those people are, they're still on the hook to the cartel to pay them for the money that they owe them. And so oftentimes that's what will spark a kidnapping. Now, that kidnapping in a situation like that, the victim will stay with like sometimes a couple that we've worked here.

2:27:04they've stayed with a family until the money is paid and then they release them. And I'm sure James can speak to that also. So, you know, going down to Mexico, what's happening here is far afoul from that because they're not running this operation like a cartel would run a kidnapping because it's a hit and run, get it done, get the cash, get her out of there. You know, that is not what happened to you. Not only that, but James, nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We never, that does not sound like a Mexican drug cartel to me, but I am an amateur. Not the ones, not the ones I've worked.

2:27:50They don't speak that way and they don't write notes like that, frankly. So no, but that's just my experience. So that's not, that's not the norm. But what do you make of multiple people? Yeah. Ruling out the Mexican gang doesn't mean it's not like a gang of two Americans. And let's not forget about how the back door was propped open, propped open by like a planter or something. Yeah, I've always felt this guy was trying to come in through the front door. We believe he exited with Nancy through the front door. But I think the working theory is that he will end up getting in through the back door since the door was propped open with something.

2:28:26Yeah, I've always felt those multiple people. I still don't know how you get the guy on the porch saying she's with nature and we're terribly sorry. I just don't put those two together. I think it's a team. I think it always has been. I don't really believe these ransom notes are legitimate. If there was any type of desire to get paid, which they always want to get paid in these situations, they would have extended a lot more effort to make that happen, and they didn't. And so I think it's interesting. But I just I know scammers and I just feel so frequently that, you know, this is a scam. They're playing a game.

2:29:07They're trying to get paid. They've been proving anything to me. And just to go back to your point real quick about if they did have specificity about her nightgown. And I know you said something like you'd be convinced. Well, I wouldn't be. I'd still need to know more. I need to know how many people went into that crime scene. How many people would have known what she was wearing? Who did they talk to? I mean, I would still need to go a long way before I could fundamentally say, yeah, that's them without them showing me a picture of her or letting me talk to her. I'm just, you know, as an FBI, I'm not going to say to the family, yeah, they've got her.

2:29:41Let's pay. Let's do what we need to do. I'm just not going to do that because there's nothing here yet that proves to me, yeah, they had her, but they had Ms. Guthrie. You know, you're raising good points because I'm thinking we did a week, fraud week, one year when I was on vacay and we did a pre-taped five series episodes, five episode series. that was june of two years ago june of 2024 and we played as the final episode of fraud week my own family's attempted defrauding where my husband's mother as you point out the elderly who at the time was 86 i think 85 and um she received a phone call from a hysterical woman claiming to be her daughter, her own daughter, saying she'd been in a car accident.

2:30:35No, saying that she and her partner had been pulled over by the cops and accused of drunk driving, excuse me, and that her partner had punched out the cop. And meanwhile, she and her partner don't drink, but like it was COVID. So like you didn't, you never knew, you know, like people were behaving weird. so that uh he punched out the cop and they were both in jail and they needed to be bailed out asap and could she please call could the mother please call diane's lawyer and she gave her mom in quotes her lawyer's number her public defender and jackie doug's mom called us hysterical she was like oh my god diane has had this terrible incident she and brad are both in jail and i I spoke with her.

2:31:23Like I spoke with Diane. Like, oh my gosh, this is terrible. What happened? And, uh, it was all a fraud, but it was so sophisticated. You guys, he had at least three people involved in the fraud with him, different actors who called, who played the court clerk, who paid, who played his assistant, who played the one 800 risk. It was like the amount of money they threw into trying to get Doug's mother. It was just crazy. And we almost fell for it. We all, they had us, they had us on the line for sure. James, They're there, but for the grace of God. They're really good. I help clients every day with call spoofing and how to avoid it, how to mitigate it, how to calm down, bring the anxiety way down.

2:32:03There's an easy way to do it because they're pushing the right buttons. That's why you felt that, Megan. You felt like, God, this sounds real because they're pushing the right buttons. They know what they're doing, and there's a way to beat them, but you got to take the first step. You can't do it if you're running. You got to pump the brakes. can't put too much stock into those letters that's a good reminder um but we do know one thing which is nancy's gone and someone was on that front porch that's right and maureen o 'connell says they may be getting closer to figuring out who that was team thank you great to see you again to follow wow um what a what a crazy story i mean like that that's that's quite the update right Like Maureen's update is bigger than anything we came to air with.

2:32:50That she's 75 % sure that they're closing in on Porch Man. I mean, that would be everything. That's the one who took her. I don't know whether he's the one writing the notes, whether he's the one who masterminded it, but clearly that's the one who took her. And if we find him, then it's ballgame. Still saying prayers for Nancy and Savannah and their whole family, which is still, as she points out, in agony. Let us know your thoughts. You can email me, Megan, at MeganKelley.com. On that or any other aspect of today's show or the news, look forward to hearing from you, and we will be back tomorrow with more.

2:33:26Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

2:33:36The Essential Avocado and Banana Smoothie, made with ripe avocado, frozen bananas, organic almond milk, and a generous spoonful of your favorite protein powder. Fueling busy mornings, countless workouts, and the occasional Zoom meeting that should have been an email. The essential energy boost made possible by Vitamix. Only the essential. The forecast? Sunshine with a strong chance of My Mochi ice cream. My Mochi is premium ice cream wrapped in sweet, soft dough. It's creamy on the inside and chewy on the outside and comes in joyfully chill flavors like strawberry, mango, and cookies and cream.

2:34:16Every box of My Mochi has six mochis, so it's fun to eat and easy to share all summer long. Grab a purple box of My Mochi ice cream today and taste the joy.