Ariana Grande Is Being FAILED by Those Around Her, Meghan Markle ESCALATES Feud with Martha Stewart, with Maureen Callahan | Ep. 1379

29:07She did that ridiculous archetypes podcast all about female empowerment as if she knows anything about it. Truly. She wants us to behave, to behave like she's Marie Curie. Like you've done nothing. You were deal or no deal. And then suits girl. It's fine. There's nothing wrong with being an actress and a model, but stop pretending like you were Queen Elizabeth because you weren't. You've done nothing. But anyway, she tried her hand at podcasting and failed. And now, you know, who's trying his hand at podcasting is Barack Obama. I this is why you shouldn't become president too early. This is why it's better to do it the way Trump did it.

29:49Live a big life, accomplish a lot in the world and in business, you know, put your name on things in a way that people remember. And then, then if you want to like make the presidency, like you're crowning professional achievement when you really don't have anything to lose, I think that's great. That works well. Cause you're really kind of like your give a shit meter changes when you're at that point in your career. But Barack Obama didn't in his young forties. And now he's, he wants a job you and I have more. It's fine. Our job is good. We like our job, but like, it kind of hoped like you'd be doing more if you were the president.

30:26He's launching a podcast. And to be specific, it's more like he wants the job my husband, Doug Brunt has, because it's going to be, it's called a great book with Barack Obama. And he's going to talk about books on this thing. But weirdly, it seems like not just like books that are coming out. The report via radar is that it will focus on influential books that have impacted him. And it's old books like by Toni Morrison, James Baldwin, books that had an impact on Barack becoming Barack. So they're going to discuss that. And the way the tagline, I guess, is I invited some friends to explore why these books resonate, how they can shape our understanding of ourselves and each other and why literature matters.

31:15Okay. I hope you'll check it out. I'm a, I'm a board already. If you want a good podcast on books, you should listen to dedicated with Doug Brunt, which actually talks with authors about their process and their books. And it's fun. You get a drink, but I, I, what do you make of Barack Obama now officially saying what he really wants to do is podcast. Barack Obama, You know, it's such a disappointment. Like, there's so much he could be doing with his post-presidential life and legacy, and all he wants is to just be a celebrity. And, you know, it was never more clear to me than, I think he was celebrating his 60th birthday on Martha's Vineyard.

31:59It was the height of lockdown. But Barack was still going to have his big 60th bash. The rest of us had to stay inside, but he was going to have a major party. and Martha's Vineyard, where they are beloved, even the residents there were like, this is too far. The catering staff was like, this isn't safe. So he agreed to then call his list, right? He was going to call his guest list just to his nearest and dearest. You know who got the shaft? You know who was told you were invited, but no longer, we cannot accommodate you? David Axelrod, the guy who got Barack Obama elected as the first black president of the United States who built brand Barack got tossed over so he could have the likes of like, I don't know, like, you know, the celebrities there were like ridiculous celebs.

32:50That's what he's obsessed with. He's obsessed with. He loves the celebs. Have you seen I caught this just randomly? You know, Larry David has done this new comedy series for HBO about like the founding fathers or whatever. There's this huge bit he does with Barack Obama at, I think, like the new Obama library. And Barack is very wooden and he can't really act. And he's just being Barack. Like his library. Yeah. You know, it's just like, what are we doing here? Your wife is busy also just wanting to be famous, being a celebrity, being adored. She has a podcast. And aggrieved. And aggrieved. And her podcast is unlistenable, you know, and nobody's going to go listen to Barack's like sizzling podcast.

33:32You know, there's only six episodes too, which tells us a lot. You know, I don't think Audible really - Just the books that matter to him. Not current books, just books that have impacted me over my life. My God, again, how narcissistic. I know you all love me so much. Let me show you how I got this way and the books that I read 30 years ago that had, like, who, honestly, who would listen to that, Maureen? I just, like, those two, yeah, her podcast is not a hit. It hasn't been a hit. And by the way, what did we say? Aggrieved and what was the thing you said about aggrieved and adored? Something like that.

34:07That would be a great, that'd be a better name. That'd be a better name for her podcast than whatever it is now. One other note on the subject of Doug Brunt. The audience knows that Doug has a book out right now. It's called The Lost Empire of Emanuel Nobel. It's a thriller and it's about Emanuel Nobel, who is the most successful but least famous member of the Nobel family prize family. And he built the Russian oil fortune that's still funding Vladimir Putin's Russia to this day. And the reason you don't know his name is because when he was coming up, a little boy named Joseph Stalin was coming up at the same time.

34:44And the clash of those two titans is really what this book is about and how a fortune was stolen, basically. That book just got reviewed by the Wall Street Journal, and I want to show you what they found. They said, The Lost Empire of Emmanuel Nobel, they said it is enthralling, accessible, and they called Doug a skillful storyteller. They recommended it to all of their readers. Doug's been getting tons of great feedback on the book. It did, of course, hit the bestseller list and is still doing really well. So for those of you who have not yet read it, highly recommend. It's very fun. It's a thriller, but it's also historical.

35:26So you learn something. And unlike Barack Obama and his book interest, it's authentic, it's well-researched and it's interesting. So yay, Doug. Congrats to Doug. Oh my God. It's incredible. He came on the nerve. We had such a great conversation with him for the book. Yeah. You know, it's hard to get those long reviews where you get a major paper to sit down with your book and really do a deep dive on it. They just, it's like, they don't do that many of those anymore. And so he was thrilled. He had nothing to do with it, the Wall Street Journal, and neither did I, obviously, not on the best terms with Fox, but they decided to do it and it was a great, it was a rave.

36:06So thrilled, thrilled, thrilled. Thank you very much to them for such a lovely takeaway on the book. Okay. I want to keep going. Ariana Grande, we've been talking about it here. You've been talking about it on the nerve. She's dangerously thin. She is disturbingly thin. And the outrage is that her team doesn't seem to care. They seem to want her to keep going. They seem much more focused on making money off of her than actually checking her into a facility, which is very clearly, in my opinion, where she belongs. Now she's becoming fodder for these late night so-called comics like Bill Maher, who he's right on brand.

36:47He doesn't give a shit about any woman, much less Ariana Grande. And here he is the other night on her. The administration this week, just a few days ago, maybe yesterday, they unleashed a new trove of UFO files. Interesting things in their triangular craft, weird lights over an army base, a stick like figure with large eyes. that was just an Ariana Grande video. I'm sorry.

37:14We can't. We want her to, maybe that joke will make her eat something. I'm doing my thing. Maybe it'll help. Fuck him. It's really not funny. Fuck him. I spoke about on the Nerve the other day when we were covering Ariana, my own experience with an eating disorder and how painful it is and how treatment resistant it is. And I look at her and I think she should be in a hospital. She is probably at the point where she can't physically eat at a certain point. Your stomach, it certainly happened to me. It shrinks to the point where you can't take food in, like your body doesn't want it. Somebody wrote in with another.

38:03Look at that picture, Maureen. Look at that picture. I mean, she is skeletal. And, you know, I put a lot of blame on the mainstream entertainment media as well, which does the kind of whistles right past this stuff or they turn the conversation into some meta impersonal debate about should we be talking about women's bodies? Should we be body shape? That's not this conversation. It's not. And the question I now really do have is, you know, there's a thing that happens, and we saw it with Michael Jackson, who was, I believe, near bankruptcy when he died. Elvis Presley, same thing, in a lot of trouble when he died.

38:46The artist's value tends to go up when they die. And the younger they die, and the more tragic the circumstances, the more the interest in the music and the catalog grows and grows and grows. So I look at this poor young woman and I think she is surrounded by nobody who truly has her well-being at the top of the list. She is a cash cow. She makes money for people. That is it. She's been famous since the time she was very young. She came up in the child star. I believe it was Nickelodeon. We all know. Yes, the sick, sick Nickelodeon. We all know how dark that is. And I'm also sure that what she's being told by her team, who is allowed, I think, listen, I just saw this report the other day and I thought this is the right thing.

39:36Rod Stewart had to cancel his tour because he underwent emergency heart surgery. They canceled the tour. You can cancel a tour. They're making Ariana Grande finish out this tour that she's on. Finish it out. Are you really going to tell me she's not being given drugs to finish this out? Because this is the kind of skinny where you can't even climb a flight of stairs on your own. That's right. That's absolutely right. She's like beyond the point where she should be walking around amongst us. Somebody, I mean, where are her parents? What, like what, where are they to say, honey, we love you. You have enough money.

40:15Your team around you has made enough money. You need to take a step away. It's, or you're going to wind up like Britney Spears just today. Hey, before we came to air, there was another Britney video online of her inappropriately twerking. She always looks like, you know, she just like got out of bed with somebody like with the mascara running down her face. The weird twerking, it it works, I guess, if you're 20 and you're young and fit and super youthful. It doesn't work for Britney, like the same little sad dance routine she keeps doing and putting online, trying to sex pot her way back into our feeds.

40:52that's where ariana's heading if she keeps going at this rate if it's just a life full of self-abuse and churning out content for other people's pockets she has more money than she could ever spend in 20 lifetimes this is like where are the people who love her you know there's no spouse i don't know about the parents where's the manager where's the talent agent the agent right. Who should be able to say, Ariana, you're going inpatient. Instead, they, we, they released the video of this pedal, which we aired on our show last week and our audience responded. It couldn't believe their eyes. Um, that appears to be like highlighting her bones protruding here in video four, like the collarbone is like, I'm trying to make mine do it.

41:37Like shoving my, look at this. They want us to see, look at this, look at the chest cavity. It's all bone. That right there is someone who needs help. And that video to me, she's, she's telling us something, whether she's dialed into it or not, you know, that this is the cost of being her. I actually don't think that Ariana, if she continues this way, will wind up like Brittany. I just don't think she will live much longer. I think she's clearly on the Karen Carpenter trajectory where that eating disorder does so much damage to your internal organs. Your heart can no longer take it. We talked about Karen the other day and right before her death, she was admitted to the ICU, I think at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City.

42:28And they put her on an IV drip because she had done so much damage to her digestive organs that she could not take physical food. I mean, I know Ariana Grande, her mother's in the picture. Her brother, Frankie Grande is in the picture. But I mean, these people will all have blood on their hands if something happens to her, which I, again, as someone who suffered from this, it's beyond clear. There's no debate. She's a very, very, very sick young woman. She's very sick. She needs immediate help. This is our opinion. We need to make clear. It is our opinion. We don't have any confirmation. She's got a, yeah, allegedly reportedly, but we don't know that she's got anorexia, but I mean, our eyes would certainly suggest she does or some sort of eating disorder.

43:16And you're right to raise Karen Carpenter because one of the most disturbing things about Karen Carpenter's case for the listing audience, for the young audience who doesn't remember her, you know, rainy days and Sundays always let me down. Something like that. I can't remember the words, but something like that. And a voice as smooth as velvet. I mean, just the, one of the most beautiful voices we've ever had in American songmaking. And she died at age 32 after she'd gotten help. She was on the way back to wellness. If memory, it's been a while, but if memory serves, but it was too late Maureen she'd already done so much damage by the deprivation in calories and she looked she looked 70 even though she was 32 you know Karen Carpenter and that's that's what's going to happen to Ariana too there's only so much all the silicon and Botox and plastic surgeons can do with somebody who insists on making themselves look like a corpse my mom is in the mental health field.

44:19She spent her life at the Albany VA helping veterans, but she also had a private practice when she was younger with mental health. And she said, this is one of the hardest things to cure in eating disorder. Like it is just so hard to break somebody of it. And then you add all the pressures that a huge celebrity like Ariana would have if she has this, and it would be 10 times harder, even more. Part of what also makes it so treatment resistant is, a sufferer. And again, I'm not saying she is, but you can get to the point where either you're in real denial. You think people around you are overreacting and you are justified and you really like the way you look.

45:01Or the extreme weight loss, it becomes like a high. It's like a dopamine hit. How much control can I exert over my body, over this primal neat. You have to eat to survive, right? But if you can control that and then couple that with the era of Ozempic that we're in, this kind of stick-thin look, we see celebrities on the red carpet all the time. We're being told by the media, they look great. They look like death. They look like death. Demi Moore. Charlize Theron is way too thin. Margot Robbie. She's gotten so thin. Margot Robbie and that other girl. Who's the name? What's the name? Olivia Wilde.

45:45Olivia Wilde. Also, I said, look like a corpse. Now she came out and she's attacking me. I'm sorry. Look, I'm sad that you've let this happen to you. I used to be a big, you're a big fan when you were on house, but she looks skeletal now. She was, oh, it's the camera angle. Okay. It wasn't the camera angle. A camera angle doesn't make bones protrude when they're not actually protruding. It doesn't make your eyes completely sunken in your head. Like we see in a skeleton when they're not. I mean, we all know the difference between thin, even very thin, and skeletal. Like, it's plain as the nose is on your face.

46:19They are the ones who don't see it. They are the ones who don't see it and think they look good in this very corrupt industry that will just continue exploiting them. So I really hope she does get the help she needs. Brad Pitt is also in the news. and I I'm worried about him too so Brad Pitt is drinking again there was an in-depth profile on Brad Pitt by um who did it uh who did the original Esquire did the original and the guy did a great uh job uh reporting on it but he exposed he broke the news that Brad Pitt is drinking again after having been on the wagon for many years, seven years. And now like he offered this guy a glass of wine and the reporter was like, is it just, just for the guests?

47:10And Brad's like, no, I'm drinking again and admitted and, and is talking about how he, he can have, the reporter said, Oh, just a glass. You can have just a glass. And he's like, no, I can have, you know, more than just a glass, like a few glasses, but I can't have too much. Like, okay. if you're an alcoholic, I'm pretty sure this is not how it works, Maureen. And I think once again, there's probably not a lot of people in Brad Pitt's life who can sit him down and say, Brad, no, for an alcoholic, what is it? One drink is too many and 1 ,000 won't be enough. So I think this story is fascinating on multiple levels.

47:46So Brad Pitt designed that tableau in order to get this story out, right? He was the one who brought out the wine and served it to the journalist. And that was the prompt. Like, oh, is it okay for me to drink in front of you? Like, are you sure? Like you are on the record as being an alcoholic in recovery. And Brad says, oh, well, I'm drinking again. It's a cover story in Esquire. He knows it's going to make headlines, right? So why? Why is he telling us this? My question is, are we trying to get ahead of something? because back when Angie deplaned with those children, fled in a limousine. 2016.

48:26And the next day filed for a divorce, which was shocking and made worldwide headlines. I'll never forget. I was working at the New York Post. I got an emergency call to come in early. And then I looked on the Daily Mail website and I remember the font size about the Brad and Angie split. It was like the font size you would reserve for World War III breaking out. It was like an enormous story, right? And then Brad, like a couple of months later, does like a cover story for GQ in which he says, hey, I'm an alcoholic and I'm an AA now. And I really had to get my stuff together. And I remember saying to this guy who was one of the top reporters on page six, what is the play here?

49:10Why is Brad Pitt doing this? He doesn't have to. There are plenty of people in recovery in Hollywood that we don't know about. So why is he being so public about this? Brad Pitt, Hollywood's wholesome golden boy, you know, all like the way he spun that, that split from Jen Aniston, it was like, he just wants babies. What else can he do? He has no choice. You know, so why is he doing this? And, and Ian said to me, I think he's trying to get ahead of something. And lo and behold, we later learned what went down on that plane. He was on a drunken rampage. He poured beer over Angie and one of the kids hiding under a blanket.

49:48By Angie's report to the FBI, he assaulted her in a bathroom on that plane. It was a bad, bad scene. And so when Brad Pitt, who has been famous for the bulk of his adult life, who knows how the machine works, does this, I raise an eyebrow. hmm i like it i think you're probably right now that i think it through because it doesn't make sense everybody knows if you're an alcoholic and he's been in a.a um you can't drink you can't drink one you can't have two can't have three that those days have passed you because you have this thing that compels you to drink more than one two or three if you pick up the bottle i mean maybe there's the rare case i'm sure there are who are able to do it but that it's the exception not the rule.

50:35So why would he be publicizing it? That's a very good question. Well, we will see if there's another shoe to drop on that one. Put a pin in that. When we come back and update, Maureen mentioned Michael Jackson, an update on a lawsuit against the Michael Jackson estate, a setback for the plaintiffs, and Chris Watts, a family annihilator, is getting married. Stand by. Back to school season means busy mornings and inevitable classroom germs. It's time to completely reinvent the family medicine cabinet with Beekeepers Naturals, a clean health company delivering real non-toxic wellness solutions. So before heading out the door, consider daily defense with just four quick sprays of the adult and kids Propolis Immune Support Throat Spray.

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52:14Updates for you now and a few legal matters that we've been covering, including the Nick Reiner case, the Chris Watts case, and a massive case brought by alleged child molestation victims against the Michael Jackson estate. Maureen Callahan is my guest today. She is host of The Nerve with Maureen Callahan, which you can find on all podcast platforms and YouTube. Go and subscribe now so you don't miss a moment of Maureen. You're lost if you do. Trust me, if you haven't sampled The Nerve or The Nerve at night, you're missing out. Okay, this Chris Watts case, I've just been thinking weirdly about family annihilators because we've been doing this MK Confidential series at night.

52:58And we have been this week, tonight's the fifth of the five episodes doing John List, who was a family annihilator who killed his whole family in 1971. If I do say so myself, it's a riveting series. Please go and check it out. It's on the Megyn Kelly podcast feed. You don't have to look hard for it. But anyway, Chris Watts was kind of on my mind because he is one of the most notorious, infamous, awful family annihilators in American in history, and he's still a relatively young man serving time for his crime. I'll get to the update in one second, but just to set the stage for people who don't remember this case, it happened in Denver, Colorado, and on August 13th of 2018, Watts would strangle his wife, Shanon, to death and kill their two daughters, Bella Four and Celeste III, and then dispose of the children's bodies in the most detestable, horrific way possible.

53:58I'm just going to start by showing you a little bit from the Netflix documentary on Watts, where you will see Shanann and the girls and Chris in their so-called happy phase, which was not long before he murdered them all. It's not 39. Hey guys, my name is Shanann. I just want you to know a little bit of my story. I went through one of the darkest times of my life. And then I met Chris. And he's the best thing that has ever happened to me. I've done everything in my heart to make my family's life better. Go to eternal. Go to eternal. I think about like, did I cause this? Did I cause this? That was his confession to his dad when in custody.

54:44which of course i mean it's so passive voice and it's such a pathetic cause it you did it you did it affirmatively um one more when after he killed shenan and the girls he pretended like they they disappeared like she just took the girls and he didn't know where she took the girls meanwhile like her purse was still there her medication was still there it was like oh she just she just walked off without any like kid supplies um and i believe her car was still there. Like she's literally, she just walked away without her purse. Okay, sure. But anyway, he gave an interview to a Denver, um, news outlet at the time and pretended like he had no idea what happened to her.

55:29I'll show you part of the interview. This is him knowing that he strangled her, um, shortly before and that he killed his daughters as well in SOT 37. I left work for work early that morning, like five 15, five 30. So like, She barely got into bed pretty much. This might be a tough question, but did you guys get into an argument before? It wasn't like an argument. We had an emotional conversation, but I'll leave it at that. But I just want them back. I just want them to come back. And if they're not safe right now, that's what's tearing me apart. Because if they are safe, they're coming back. But if they're not, this has got to stop.

56:15Somebody has to come forward. Shanann, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. If somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here. Please bring her back.

56:37It's chilling to look at that, knowing what we know. he knew very well that Shanann would not be coming back because he looked her in the face and strangled her to death nights before that interview, not to mention what he did to his young daughters. This is so graphic, a viewer warning. This is him in a Denver interview from prison, March of 2019. And again, here he's going to detail how he killed his two young children. very disturbing but it's relevant to what we're about to discuss stop 38 okay where exactly was she when it happened in the backseat okay was she just right next to bella okay so um so once again was it a hand over her face was it it was a blanket over my hand and then went down to bella tell me what happened there She said what happened to Cece.

57:40Or if she asked, it was the same thing, the exact same thing that happened to me as Cece. Did she ask you that? Okay. So Bella's pretty smart. How did she sound when she asked you that, Chris? She said that soft voice she always said. what exactly did she say she had that good it's the same thing that happened to me and Cece and then I said I don't even remember what I said I don't know if I just said yes like a horrible person or if I just put that blanket over her too and did the same thing

58:23it's so awful this four year old girl Bella knew it was going to happen to her because she watched him do it to her little sister Celeste who was three and then he put their bodies in an oil tank at a field where he was employed and left them there. He left Shanon not far from there, not in an oil tanker, but not far from there. This man would ultimately confess his father extracted a bit of that confession from him, which we showed in part. He was sentenced to life in prison and he is in prison right now. He is in Wisconsin. He was relocated from Ohio to Wisconsin. And Maureen... And he's going to get married again.

59:14There is a young woman whom the Daily Mail found and an exclusive got an interview with her. Her name is Lizzie Henderson. She is a realtor. She's at least a licensed realtor and was, we believe it, for a time working as a realtor. She's got a license to do it in Wisconsin, but they report is currently working at a local supermarket. it. She has somehow fallen within this guy's crosshairs and he's 41. She's 39. She moved, um, to be near him. And, um, I'm sorry, she's the one who relocated from Ohio to Wisconsin to be closer to his cell. And she has applied to marry him within the prison system.

1:00:02She has reportedly also submitted for a name change on September 12th, 2025. She is wearing his name already. She's going by Lizzie Watts. They've been seen making out at the prison, saying that they love each other to one another and have become, quote, increasingly physical. It's the Daily Mail. You can't have a conjugal visit in his prison, but they're doing what they can, shall we say. When the Daily Mail spoke to her, they said she spoke in a scattered manner, that her responses were often disjointed. And when they asked her about what she's doing, she said she knew it could be perceived as weird.

1:00:45She would not get specific about how they met. They asked, what do you think about his crime? She said, how I feel about it. He knows. He knows how I feel. And then she described the killings as, quote, something harsh for anyone to experience. The Daily Mail concluded she was seeming to downplay his, the extraordinary brutality of these crimes. She visited him 20 times last year. I, I'm so fascinated by women who do this Maureen, like I, and not just any criminal. It's fascinating enough. You're going to get married or date a criminal, a criminal, a prisoner, but a family annihilator, someone who would do that.

1:01:23What we heard in that soundbite to a four and a three-year-old and you're out there selling groceries and selling real estate and like functioning in this world as a semi-normal human being and interacting with people that the levels of unwellness here are like off the charts. There's so much to discuss here. First of all, I saw you were doing John List on your, on your new show and John List was, I knew about that case from a very young, too early because that That happened in Westfield, New Jersey. And my dad was raised in Westfield, New Jersey. And that crime shocked Westfield, New Jersey. Really lovely bedroom community.

1:02:09It was, it was, I think it was one of the first cases where the American public had learned of like a family annihilator. Now we know about them, you know? Number two, I didn't know any of those details because with these cases, the Clancy one that's going on right now, that kind of grievous harm, murder leveled against children by their parents, it's too much to take. Listening to that was awful. Thirdly, how? I'll bet you I know how they met. I'll bet you she doesn't want to admit it because she wrote love letters to him. 100%. That's the woman for him. She's going to fix this bad boy. Number four, how is it that family annihilators aren't ripped to shreds in prison?

1:03:01How is this guy still walking around a prison? I'm surprised. Very good question. I'm surprised. Number five, how is it that family annihilators are allowed to date, get engaged, and get married? How? Can't we just come up with a law in the books that you have to suffer? If they're not going to put you down like the rabid animal you are, you are not a human. You are a rabid fucking animal. If we're not going to put you down, and there are just people who need killing on this earth. Brian Koberger is one. You know, the Menendez brothers were hot pieces. They were hot tickets. You know, they're both married.

1:03:41One of the Menendez brothers— We just looked that up. uh the one brother eric the younger one has been married for 27 years lyle was married i think for 23 and just got a divorce but he for 20 for the marriage held for more than two decades in prison keep going you want to know why lyle got a divorce he had another woman on the side he's with her now what yes yes you know what i mean it's like i i don't know if the thinking is like just keep them as happy as you can. Like, I don't get it. Like, I don't get why a Chris Watts isn't in a federal supermax, why he's not in solitary for 23 hours a day, let alone able to get married.

1:04:23And I guarantee you this crazy woman, this really fucked up individual has lost her job selling real estate. And that's why she's bagging groceries now at the local stop and shop. This can't be a well person. There's just no way with all the respect to her. I'm sure she's going through something because why else would you ever do something like this? Here's, my team tells me that there's been a lot of notorious like serial killers who have gotten married. Of course, Charles Manson presided over a group of shaved head groupies and he got four fan letters a day. He sought a marriage license in 2014 to wed Afton Elaine Burton, a 26 year old admirer who'd been visiting him for years.

1:05:04Ted Bundy, you're the one who turned me on to that amazing book about him. Wow. Yeah, that was crazy. Wow. And it wasn't even that book. It was so good. Stranger beside me. Yes. Yeah. She was his friend. Andrew's friend. They were working. He was really young. We're working a suicide hotline together, talking people out of killing themselves. I was reading that this time last year. I was listening to the audio and I was taking these long walks and no one knows you're listening to a story about Ted Bundy. I bumped into somebody, the grocery store. It was a kid. It was like, hi, Mrs. Kelly. I remember you telling me that.

1:05:41I remember you telling me that. It's crazy. And the, and the, that was a great book, such a great book. And I'm so, I knew you would love it because one of the most amazing details of that book to me, you know, she was, uh, Ann Rule was a single mother. She had young children. She was volunteering at the suicide hotline. And every night she worked with Ted, he would walk her out to her car because he was like, I want to make sure you're safe. She was one person who he seemed to actually enjoy and experience as a friend. It's so bizarre. One of our most notorious serial killers, but she did have some weird friendship with Ted Bundy.

1:06:20So he wound up married. He became a father after committing at least 30 murders, despite being locked up for three decades. Richard Ramirez, the night stalker, He tied the knot with a reporter who saw his mugshot on TV. So I looked this up. This is sent to me by Debbie Murphy. Dr. Fred Berlin, director of the Johns Hopkins Sex and Gender Clinic. Why do women fall for imprisoned men? There tends to be this trait of intense mothering in prison wives. I think these women tend to be very nurturing. They have a sense of wanting to be caring for someone else. And men in prison, for obvious reasons, are quite needy.

1:06:56Now, I pulled up some interesting facts on this, okay? which I want to run by you. I actually think this is just fascinating. Okay. One, one possible reason they get married to prisoners. Um, the, that in a prison marriage, the partner on the outside holds most of the power. They decide when to visit, whether to accept phone calls, how much money to send, which can appeal to individuals who have felt powerless in past trauma or in relationships. Okay. I like this as a theory, like you dated an abusive asshole. And so you marry some other abusive asshole, but now it's on your terms. They can't hurt you and you're in control and you're in the power position, whether this is, you know, this, I think would not be an on the nose thing.

1:07:44This would be a subconscious motivator for you. Then there's the savior or a project complex. Some women are drawn to the idea of reforming or fixing an inmate, seeking emotional fulfillment from engineering a redemption arc. I like it. Yes. Then there's something, get this, called hybristophilia, a specific psychological condition or paraphilia where a person feels sexual or romantic arousal and attraction specifically because their partner has committed a notorious crime, violent act, or murder. It turns you on to know that they've murdered someone, that's gotta be related to like, I'm the one who's gonna tame the lion.

1:08:32You know, like he's dangerous, but not with me. Yeah, I don't, I like, right? There's gotta be that dynamic at play at some level. I'm special, right? I'm the one, it's like every woman who's ever gone after a bad boy, like this notion that like, you're the one to fix them. You are somehow differentiated in that way. It's never true. And I also think there's something to it about, I mean, I like all of those theories. I think they're great. I also think there's something to it where it's like, it's a way of having a marriage without having a real marriage. You're not in it in the day to day. Like you're not grinding it out, paying the bills, raising the kid, like whatever.

1:09:11Like it's that person can remain a fixed idea somewhere in another location that is difficult to reach. You may or may not, like, why would you marry Megan, as this woman is going to do, a man with whom you cannot have conjugal visits? Like, what, like, there's something going, was she abused as a young person? You know, is this a weird, weird, morbid kind of safety to her? I don't understand. I mean, I'm sure this is a completely understudied phenomenon. I personally would love to see female academics and research in this phenomenon. I think you need women in this field for sure. You know, it's interesting to me that they're saying possibly you had trauma in a prior relationship that would make you choose somebody like this, not just a prisoner, but like a murderous prisoner, somebody who murdered his wife and family and two beautiful, innocent daughters in the single digits, that maybe you had trauma in your past relationship.

1:10:16And so you're looking for a redemption arc or you're looking for to be in a more powerful position vis-a-vis the man in your life. Because Shanann Watts, his wife, she in that Netflix documentary talks about how she was in a very bad relationship prior to Chris Watts. She something very bad happened to her in her first relationship. And she found Chris Watts and Chris Watts was heavy. He was like obese when they got together. He wasn't like, it's hard to say this about such a monster, but objectively, he turned into a decent looking guy at the time of the murder. Now he looks like a prisoner who's let himself go and disgusting.

1:11:04But my point is simply, did she intentionally, did she repeat a pattern, you know, consciously or subconsciously? I think a lot of women worry about this with themselves, not on the level of like, I'm going to get murdered, but they repeat patterns, whether it's consciously or subconsciously. And so it's almost like if you've been with somebody who's abused you or really hurt you, like intentionally, who's a bad person, you have to actively do something in your life to make sure you don't invite that back to you, whether it's on the nose or not. like there might be something in you that is attracting something very dark and dangerous.

1:11:44Like that's why I always say when you have a relationship blow up, the number one goal is to work on yourself, to work on yourself. Even if you think it was all his fault and he was the douchebag and all that, still the goal remains the same. Work on yourself, improve yourself, make yourself better in every way that you can so that you will attract something better. you know i know exactly what you're talking about the thing though with the chris watts thing you know he is a psychopath okay he is a stone cold psychopath the way in which he relates what he did to those girls he is and the passive language the refusal to take you know narcissist malignant narcissism psychopathy all of it but um guys like that look for women like shenan you know and i think in the uh in the world of those real those of us megan who are like emotionally regulated and like fairly you know i hate to use the word like normal but like you have a relationship blow up and yes you go okay like what in me was attracted to that guy what in me allowed myself to overlook the following red flags that wound up hurting me right that's the goal.

1:13:00But this is another level where you can sense when a guy is a bad guy. You can sense it. I don't know if you've ever met a male psychopath in your life. I have. And to me, I can see all the signs. I can see them. And I see other women going, oh, he's really something, right? Really good looking. I think that these guys prey on broken women, profoundly broken women. Because again, as another fan and student of the Gavin DeBecker book, The Gift of Fear, Chris Watts, that doesn't just explode out of nowhere. And I am in no way blaming Shanann, in no way. But there were definitely warning signs. There was definitely violence in that house.

1:14:00There were definitely moments where I am sure she thought, should I pick up the girls and leave? And I am sure as a psychopath, he was charming and manipulative and knew how to breadcrumb and withhold and give and withhold until it ended in the way it was probably just going to. too. I mean, I did think it was very interesting the day she went missing. So she got home from a work trip with her girlfriends, you know, with whom she worked and she got into the house overnight, like at the one o 'clock hour, I think. And they were trying to call her the next morning and she wasn't picking up. Of course, she'd been killed.

1:14:39And they knew those women, God bless them. They were over there in two minutes. They were like, where's Shanann? And they were the ones dealing with 911, like she should be here. This is her medication. Why is her medication still here? And he was like sheepishly standing there guilty. I mean, you saw that news interview. He looked, he looked like he knew he'd been caught. He wasn't caught yet, but he would be. All right. I want to keep going because there's another legal update in another case that we've talked about before. And that is the Michael Jackson case. Now this family, the Casios, they've been defending Michael Jackson from the start.

1:15:22They, Michael Jackson went and stayed with them for three months after nine 11. It's the craziest story. The dad worked, I think at the P at the palace, um, as like chief bellman or, you know, some sort of middle level management, but was dealing with hotel guests. Michael Jackson lived in a modest home in New Jersey, but he had a bunch of kids. Four or five. It remains unclear to me which one. I think he had just the four. Whatever. I can't remember, but it's irrelevant. So Michael Jackson starts coming back to his house. I mean, this is not a good, no normal parent would be like, sure, and come sleep over and in my kids' rooms.

1:16:09It's just not a good idea, obviously, but it's what happened. He came with his little chimpanzee and stink. A bubbles. Just think about it, Maureen. If you're the wife and your husband works at the palace and he comes to his, I met Michael Jackson. Oh, cool. The next thing you know, Michael Jackson has moved in with his chimpanzee. He's literally the biggest star on the planet and he's on your little fold-out couch. So that happened. That's a real thing. They got very close. the Casios and Michael. And he brought all the children on tour with him. He made them feel like special favorites, which they clearly were.

1:16:46In all the years, they've defended Michael Jackson, never laid a hand on us, three boys and a girl, never once. These are lies. Stop it about Michael Jackson. Then we find out that allegedly when they saw the Leaving Neverland documentary, documentary, which was not a documentary. I've got a lot of issues with how that was done. I know a lot about, in particular, that Wade Robson that I've told the audience about in part, serious credibility problems by at least the one accuser, none of which were raised. Doesn't mean he's lying about Michael Jackson, but as a filmmaker doing what you call a documentary, you have an obligation to tell the audience.

1:17:24Anyway, they said that that triggered something for them, that it, quote, deprogrammed them, and that now they've realized they were abuse victims and did they go out to the cameras to just say this happened to us and we want to set the record? No, they put their hands out. They went to the Michael Jackson estate and they got a payout, multi-million dollar payout reportedly. And then in 2026, after or just as the MJ mega movie was coming out, they went back to the till, reportedly wanting more. And now, and they wanted the lawsuit to be heard in court because that's where you can get big bucks.

1:18:09Everyone's thinking if I can just get in front of a jury, I'm going to win because I'm just going to tell a sob story about something terrible that happened to me. Here's a little flavor of the Casio's and them alleging the abuse by Michael Jackson in a piece they did in May of 2026. This is just a couple months ago for 60 Minutes Australia. Feraldo, the family's youngest, at times the fear was overwhelming. Did you find his appearance scary as a kid? Yeah. Yeah, especially when you're in bed with him at night and he turns into the zombie and, you don't love me, you don't love me. You know, his eyes were like this.

1:18:57Learning there were other victims meant this was no longer just his secret to keep. And I was like, oh my God, he did this to other kids. That was enough for my courage to just blossom. I was like, no, no, no, no. This isn't made up. This is real. Aldo decided to tell his family of the abuse he'd endured, unaware he would also be opening the lid on the suffering of each and every one of his siblings. I called everyone to meet at my mom and dad's home, and I said, I just want you guys to know that everything that they're saying is true, because it happened to me too. Aldo's courageous admission led to all his siblings finally sharing what they say Jackson had done to them.

1:19:48It was the hardest thing for me to do was to admit it. Oh, yeah. I can't describe the feeling, the range of emotions that I was feeling at the time and coming out. OK, so they've tried now to crack open this settlement they entered into in 2019 with the Jackson estate. and they filed a lawsuit in California federal court trying to get their day in front of a jury. And the California court just tossed the lawsuit saying you signed a deal to arbitrate all claims. That's where you're going to have to resolve this. If at all, you're going in front of an arbitrator as you agreed to do by contract back in 2019, which is a very, very good ruling for the Michael Jackson estate.

1:20:34They'd much rather be in front of an arbitrator who will be a somber, serious, probably retired judge who will now find whether this settlement agreement they've reached can be voided. I guess that's what they're asking for because they want more money or what. But this, I tell you, Maureen, I don't know about the Casio family. I got real questions about them and this belated attempt to cash in on Michael Jackson's renewed fame and success. They had no money in the estate for a long, long time. Now they do. And they're back again. This is, this one is so interesting. I watched that 60 minutes piece when it aired.

1:21:17I do, I am of the belief that Michael Jackson was a pedophile. I think that, you know, as you, as you were like laying out in the, in the very beginning of this, the father comes home with like Michael Jackson and bubbles. And it's like, he's going to be living here indefinitely. And it is weird, but it's like he's a lowly, he may be the head of the bellhops, but he's a lowly guy compared to Michael Jackson. And now Michael Jackson thinks I'm special? Me? With my two-car garage? You know? Like, okay. And that was sort of the thing with Michael, right? It was like he had to be around children, but it was always said that it's just because he didn't have a childhood, you know.

1:22:05And I went back and watched that Oprah special with him as well, where he's like touring her around Neverland. And it really does to me, it did look like a pedophile's lair. Now, the thing about the Casio story that raises questions for me is that the girl, the sister, the lone sister says he did it to me too. and all the allegations the history of this has been that if if you do believe michael jackson was a pedophile he was inclined to little boys not little girls for what it's worth the last reporting i read on this said that paris jackson had been in conversation with the cassio family and does believe them and i think this has caused a significant estrangement between Paris and her brothers.

1:23:00I think that's right, but she couldn't know. To be honest, I'm sure she's got a better informed opinion than most of us because she's had access to the estate and she knows all the players and so on. But I mean, she was too little, in other words, to actually have seen much that would have shown her whether he was or he wasn't. Of course, his entire family says absolutely not. His family has stood by him, except for Latoya, who for a brief time said she believed these allegations, but then recanted that and said her abusive husband kind of made her say it. But I think this is a very good ruling for the Michael Jackson estate because they signed a deal.

1:23:40They were trying to get out of it. They wanted to get it in front of a jury, which most plaintiffs think they'll do better in front of. And this judge did the right thing by saying nobody forced you to sign an arbitration agreement for any future claims. That's you signed it. And honestly, like to me, Maureen, if they had just come forward to say this happened, we want to set the record straight. It happened. It, it would have been a game changer in the whole narratives around Michael Jackson. Cause there's so much he said, she said, or he said, he said, there's so many credibility problems with his accusers that you could really like, I can see why people are like, absolutely not.

1:24:15I don't believe them. And every plaintiff has had their hand out. I want to get paid, including these four. And in this 60 Minutes Australia piece, they seem very affected. The one Aldo who we showed was like, oh, and he was like, there was no tears. It was like, yes, that was my problem with that. I'm not sure I buy this. That was my problem with that too. It was very affected. But I will say this. If I say my claim, and let's say I'm coming at this and it absolutely happened to me, right? I was serially abused by this guy who was like the biggest pop star on the planet. And there was an entire infrastructure around it that allowed it to happen.

1:24:59I would want money. I think that this is also kind of like the Pandora's box that the Michael Jackson biopic opened, right? That movie has grossed over$1 billion. And that movie was a definite legacy play. And it was restoring Michael Jackson into the pantheon as just an unbelievable artist of one of a kind. The problem now is that that movie is so successful, they have to make a sequel. They can't leave money on the table. Oh, yeah. But they will. Where do you go with this story when we all know what chapter two is? I have an idea. Tell me. I have an idea. Because in the original, they did reportedly cover the abuse allegations.

1:25:44Obviously, it would have been in a way that was favorable to Michael. And they had to take it out because somebody at the last minute realized that they had signed deals with these accusers who they were featuring in the movie that required them to never speak of these people again. So the estate is bound by those agreements signed by Michael. And therefore they couldn't do like some hit piece on the early accusers in movie form. They would have gotten sued. They would have lost every, every dollar of that billion. So they lobbed off that portion of the movie and they left it at just like, look at the singing and the dancing.

1:26:21But I think they will do something like fictional. They, they will say something like, you know, some of these allegations have been fictionalized or these people have been fictionalized and they'll portray the scandal in a way that's very favorable to him and show that, oh, these are all grifters who try to make money off of Michael, et cetera, et cetera, in a way that they think is exonerating, but doesn't violate the agreement. They'll find some clever way of like getting around the actual named plaintiffs and their actual stories. I think so. Cause I, I, my information is they're in the process right now of making part two.

1:26:59So this is so fascinating when this movie dropped and the Casio piece on 60 minutes dropped, I went and found there are two celebrity memoirs that are like out of print, very hard to get. And they go for like hundreds of bucks. One was Latoya's memoir, which I got. And the other was Catherine Jackson's memoir, which I got. And I need to go through them because in catherine jackson's memoir she's the matriarch apparently she does write about joe the patriarch as a very very very abusive guy um and it that book is like out of print you would think these books would be coming back into print with the renewed interest um yeah the other thing that struck me as very telling the second most famous jackson is janet jackson who is beloved.

1:27:47Like you and I have a similar vintage, right? Janet of good times, right? Like sweet little Janet Jackson. Everybody loves Janet. She was nowhere to be seen during this major media rollout for this movie about her brother's life starring her nephew. She's never spoken to it. The younger audience may not realize like Janet was almost as famous as Michael. I mean, she was huge in her music career. the beginning of the end of it was that Super Bowl stunt, which she says she paid for with her career. And Justin Timberlake suffered no consequences. I agree with her where he, he ripped down like a patch over her and exposed her naked breast.

1:28:30Yeah, no, it was total bullshit, but yet I don't think she's ever said anything about any of it. So you're right. She's the big sort of the white whale of this whole thing. Like what does Janet Jackson think? But you're right. she wasn't anywhere near the movie apparatus. Okay, going to take a break. We have more to do. Update on Nick Reiner, what we just learned from the court proceeding about his alleged crime. One of the moments that really changes how you think about your future is when you start taking responsibility for other people, right? Whether it's getting married, buying a home, starting a family, you realize that planning ahead does matter.

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1:31:07agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Drashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

1:31:30Maureen Callahan is back with me. She's the host of The Nerve. Go and subscribe now. Wow. Maureen, a Los Angeles grand jury has now officially indicted Nick Reiner, 32, for allegedly murdering his parents, director Rob Reiner and producer Michelle Singer Reiner, in their Brentwood home on December 14th, 2025. The July 20th indictment was unsealed yesterday. He's pleaded not guilty. He does remain jailed without bail. But here's what's interesting about it. The prosecutors are now alleging, we know, just learned, that Nick intentionally killed his parents by means of lying in wait. He was lying in wait, apparently in their home, waiting for them to get home.

1:32:16We believe from that Conan O 'Brien Christmas party, right? Wasn't that where they were earlier that evening where they said that he had been behaving erratically and that there was an argument? The indictment also alleges multiple murders, use of a knife, and acts demonstrating a high degree of cruelty, viciousness, or callousness. Lying in wait is an enhancement to the charge. He could potentially face life without parole or the death penalty. Realistically, they're not doing the death penalty in California, but it is a death-eligible crime with this special circumstance added to it, I believe.

1:32:55The prosecutors have not yet decided whether, in fact, to seek the death penalty. But wow. I mean, wow. And now the DA, Nathan Hockman, has said this. Quote, this is a profound betrayal by someone who is loved and trusted by the very people he is accused of killing. That is pretty remarkable. I mean, if they are, there's, I just feel like there's only one reason why they would even introduce this, that he was lying in wait, this enhancement into the case. to me it suggests they may indeed be considering going for the death penalty against this guy i i just seems hard to believe i don't know why i guess just because he seems so drug addled but anything's possible what do you make of it when i heard this yesterday i was so i mean is gratified the right word it just felt i was like okay like the the da is going for what seemed to be clear from what we learned in the aftermath of this horrific double homicide.

1:33:56He, I believe, if I recall correctly, left the party before the parents. Did he? Yes. Okay. Well, he was asked to, and he wouldn't at first, but I think he did. Because then he had a fight with Rob. And the reporting also out of that was that there was an admonition to the catering staff that night to hide the knives. once Rob asked Conan if he could bring his very troubled drug addicted son. So that alone, him leaving before they got home, you're premeditating this. You're premeditating this. Then based on what we know of the crime scene, it seems that he, like the coward he is, waited for them to go to sleep because it's much easier to commit.

1:34:47He's one guy trying to commit double homicide and Rob Reiner's a substantial guy. So you wait for them to go to sleep so you can get this done. The reporting is also that the mother's body was found, I believe, in the bathroom, which seems to indicate that she tried to flee and lock herself in and he went after her. So he absolutely was lying in wait. And what I also love about this is it completely dismantles what we all know this guy is going to go for. Mental illness, a drug-addled brain. It shows malice aforethought. And, you know, if they don't go for the death penalty, I'm sure some nice woman somewhere will be waiting to marry him.

1:35:28Ah, sadly, you're right. But it's just so dark to think about him lying in wait for his parents in their home. They come in, they're getting changed. They're probably talking about him because he caused a scene at Conan O 'Brien's house earlier that evening, which I'm sure they were embarrassed by. And I'm sure they were angry and concerned about him. And so he could be, for all we know, what, sitting in the closet? Where was he? Where on the property was he waiting for his parents to get into their bed so that he could slice their throats? I mean, this guy is beyond sick and he's got two other siblings who are still alive who will probably be consulted on what the DA seeks and whether we turn this into a death penalty case.

1:36:19I mean, that's further updates to follow. Okay, ending it on a somewhat lighter note. So big news out of Washington yesterday as we learned that Caroline Leavitt is stepping down as White House press secretary. She served honorably. She did her duty spectacularly. I mean, better than anybody in recent history, in my view. And of course, she has been and the resignation is fodder for the late night hosts, including the normally nice guy, Jimmy Fallon. This is how he handled it. Some more big news today Trump announced that Caroline Levitt is resigning As White House press secretary

1:37:06That story again Caroline Levitt was definitely one of the staffers Left on Air Force One Oh really? You didn't take me? Apparently she's moving on to an easier job Working as the press secretary for Taylor Farms Lettuce Oh

1:37:21Okay, it's fine It's not great. I just feel like Caroline Levitt has taken a beating by the left wing press who really thinks she's like a handmaiden to the devil. And all she really is, is a 28 year old, extremely talented young Republican who did her patriotic duty and served a president she loved, managed the very difficult dual role of mother to two babies while doing one of the most difficult jobs in the world. And this is totally foreseeable. I don't think there's anything about, oh, she had to leave. She's mad that she was one of the decoys on Air Force One or any of the other bullshit I'm reading about her online by the left wing rags that can't stand her.

1:38:01I think she genuinely wants to be at home with her baby daughter and her son, who's only now about two. And good for her. We're in her debt. Well, I have to say, I read the Daily Mail coverage of this yesterday, too. and I was like oh my god did he leave her on Air Force One when he was getting wheeled out and that catering thing like Taylor Swift and the air store like to avoid an Iranian hit like I quit too that's kind of like you can't come back from that you can't come back from it like I'm wait I await the memoir uh I don't think that was it I really don't I it was kind of funny for the listening audience if you don't know Trump when he was ushered off of Air Force One onto another plane coming back from the Middle East.

1:38:45We now know that there was a whole switcheroo that he did because he'd been told by Israel that the Iranians were allegedly going to take a shot at him in the air. Our own intelligence services said, don't believe that. That's not true. We're really not convinced that that's real. But the Secret Service, it's their job to assume everything's real. And they got him off and they left the press corps and some of his admin officials on the original Air Force One. And some of the press in particular has been like, what the F? Were we sitting ducks? You left us there, but clearly they didn't. There was reason to discount the intel that had been given to us.

1:39:21So in any event, I wish her well, Maureen. It's very hard to do that kind of a job. Very hard. She was nimble, professional, smart, pugilistic, but likable. That's a very difficult combo, especially in a young woman. And she just did it with finesse. So God bless, Godspeed. And I really hope she looks forward to those beautiful babes. And I look forward to seeing her in her show on Fox news, which is inevitably where this will go. Great to see you feel better, my friend. Oh, thank you, Megan. Again, I'm so sorry. I'm not there with you in person, but you don't want anything to do with this right now.

1:39:56I can't wait to see you in the fall. The next time. Exactly. We'll do it 30 days or so from now and face to face and maybe with some liquor. I'd love it. And I hope all of you have a great weekend. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.