Austin Metcalf's Father Speaks Out, Plus False Karmelo Anthony Narratives, and Blake Lively Legal Fees Ruling, with Mark Geragos and Arthur Aidala | Ep. 1338

28:30And if you see a post-purchase survey, Mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Jeff, welcome to the show. I am so, so sorry for your loss and for what has been happening to your family. Thank you for this time. Can I just start with your reaction to the disgusting blowback that your family is receiving now for some reason in the wake of this guilty verdict? I mean, to be honest, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. if you're just a average normal human being that has empathy and compassion for your fellow man you don't act that way the moral decay of society today is rampant and the only people that can fix it are us the ones who exist at this very moment to make sure you teach your kids right from wrong and guide them and give them love and guidance and let them grow and become a contributing factor of a member of society.

29:36The moment the verdict came down and you heard them say guilty, what did you feel? Realistically, I mean, there was a sense of relief. And it was going to be a sense of relief no matter what was said. I just needed to get through this timeframe of this process. us. It's been a long time since my son was murdered and not being able to speak. Why my dead son's being drug through the mud. Memes, pictures. But let me make one thing clear. That has went on from both sides and I don't condone any of it. I've seen the things that they've made about Carmelo and it's disgusting. It's just as vile as the things that are done about my son.

30:28And those people that are so far left or so far right that has the need to attack a dead child or a child that's going to prison or a child, any child, it doesn't sit well with me. He's going to have to take the consequences for his actions, but we don't need piling on. I mean, this has been a tragedy for both families. Unfortunately, you know, the Anthony still continue to deflect from the truth. The truth has been out there. The truth was exposed. There was no phone one. There was no broken phone. All the lies have been debunked. And if they were at the trial during sentencing or during impact statement, they would have some more information, but they chose to abandon their child at that point and let him be there by himself.

31:27That alone to me says a lot about their parenting skills and who they are as people. That's a true reflection of their character. It has nothing at all to do with me. Have you come to know anything about Carmelo Anthony in the past year? Because he's said nothing. All we've seen from the parents is some racial grievance and just fact revision that bears no relation to what actually happened inside the trial. And the fact that they represented themselves with a spokesperson who is undoubtedly a race hustler. He's been injecting race into this case from the very beginning, this Dominique Alexander.

32:05But have you been able to learn anything about Carmelo Anthony this past year? No, ma 'am. Nothing. All I know is he was put on house arrest and he got to enjoy his freedom as he gets to stay at home and play video games and eat pizza and have friends over and gets to go to the library, gets to go get his haircut, basically still gets to live until the trial. I knew nothing. I don't know where they live. They don't communicate. I mean, ever since the press conference when I came to try to bridge the gap and they had me removed, you know, Dominique Alexander proceeded to gaslight me. He acted like he had this professional security team, which actually DPS has already found him guilty of operating a security team that's not licensed.

32:54This person has floundered, and all he wants to do is infomercials for NGAN. He really is, I call him Minister Irrelevant, because that's who he really is. He wants his 15 minutes of fame. he wants to give the Anthony's bad advice and take their money. And that's what he did. And from what I understand now, there's maybe a little bit infighting on that side of the camp. I heard that Tiffany Billions was blaming Dominique Alexander for the sentence that he received. No, the sentence he received was too light to begin with. But he's lucky he got 35. Because as my ex-wife pointed out, me, her, and Hunter, and the rest of our family, we've all been served a life sentence.

33:38not to mention if your son killed a black 17 year old in this manner, just shoving a knife in his heart after the black boy had literally just placed a hand on your son, he absolutely would have been sent to jail for the rest of his life. There's just no way this, this, they gave him a gift with this 35 years old sentence. He'll be out with good behavior, possibly, but before he's 35 years old. So I have no empathy for these claims that this was somehow the book was thrown at him or the sentence was unjust. If it was unjust in any way, it was unjust to Austin, not to Carmelo Anthony. This Dominique Alexander, the family spokesperson, is a baby beater.

34:24He's a convicted baby abuser. He seems to get off crushing little two-year-old babies. And that's not a matter of dispute. Here he is this week in reaction to the verdict on the Late Night with Mama Monique podcast, SOP 20. Carmelo is all of our babies. Most people know him as a hashtag and a name. I know that baby. What matter is that a baby was railroaded in a courtroom. He's a baby who was railroaded. This is the narrative that they're spinning, Jeff. It's and it's taking hold, as you've seen. I mean, is it stunning to you that there are people out there believing this nonsense? No, there are people out there that voted for their favorite political person based on color.

35:16It doesn't work that way. I mean, let's just deal with facts and truth, not spin webs to create narratives that benefit you. Let's just be truthful. You know, as he always says, let me be clear. He can't be clear about anything other than he can clearly lie, misrepresent and grift from other people. That's his M.O. When your family was leaving the courtroom the day of the verdict, and you were followed by these activists outside of the courthouse who've been shouting the most vile things about your deceased boy and you guys possible, and you had Hunter with you, what was that like? Okay, we need to clarify this.

36:08That's not the truth. okay first of all uh we were escorted in and out of the courtroom uh with security and driven to an off-site undisclosed location uh what you're referring to were four individuals who were friends of hunter and austin's and they were coming after the trial to meet us where we were at the undisclosed location. And there was a mix up by the Collin County Courthouse as far as security procedures. And they let them walk out without any protection whatsoever. They were immediately surrounded to trying to get to their car. And these are 17, 18 year old kids, friends of Hunter and Austin's.

36:57One was a female, three were male. The things they said, you know, we're gonna you know we're gonna piss on austin's grave you know we're glad that austin's dead just continual vile outbreak and trying to really disturb them and impede their progress and you know they finally made it to the car they made it to us they were visibly shaken crying uh upset uh i was upset uh one because the security the lapse of security but it just goes to show how this certain set of a certain subculture and i mean very small percentage i'm not i'm not trying to pick on any certain race but i am i am going to identify one subculture of a race that does continue this type of behavior i don't think it represents the entire race um i mean i have many friends of different ethnicities uh color race gender uh you know like i said before uh i am racist against assholes.

37:57I don't care what color you are, but if you treat me with disrespect, I will give it back to you. As far as the Anthony's, they're just in a constant state of denial. And I mean, it's a hard, I mean, it would be hard for me to accept that my son is a murderer, but the difference between me and them would be, I would hold my son accountable. I would make him apologize. And I myself would reach out and apologize and ask, Is there anything I can do? I am so sorry. This is terrible. My son made a mistake. Yes, he did. He's going to have to pay for it. But the lack of remorse, the lack of humility and all you want to stand up there and give me some fake crocodile tears.

38:39Same ones I saw at the press conference that you're going to try to ask for sympathy or more money or whatever you need. I can tell you what you need. You need God in your life. And if you already have it, trust him and lean into his understanding and stop spreading lies and just accept the truth. The truth was presented in the court. More than one, more than 10, more than 15, more than 20 people testified. there was no mistrial of justice there was all white jerry there was many minorities and and and like you know you can't fill out your form stating you're biased if you expect to be picked as a juror that just totally eliminates you um everything about this thing was fair and to me i'm not being able to speak did i feel like that was fair no while they all have t-shirt cells and activists on TikToks every night, monetizing, making money, telling lies while I stand here and just have to keep my mouth shut.

39:51My house has been swatted. My ex-wives have been swatted. They talk about the stuff they've lived through. Now, yes, maybe you experienced something, but nothing on the level that we have experienced. And I feel sorry for them if they experience anything. And like I said before, I don't condone all the social media memes and derogatory comments because I know how it feels because your side has done it to me four times as much as they're doing it to you. But either way, two wrongs still don't make a right. So, you know, crazy has no color. Love doesn't see color. Hate doesn't see color. and for people to see the color they really should look at themselves in the mirror and reevaluate who you are and how are you a piece of society are you part of the problem are you part of the solution so you know hopefully in this world i'm only i probably only got another 20 30 years but i'm more worried about the future and what we're teaching our children right now and I'm sorry if you teach if I I can only hop I can only guess if that boy was raised differently maybe I don't know why and the biggest question that really I'll never get answered uh is why why did you not get up on the stand and tell your story if this was true why did you not defend yourself.

41:21Your whole case is about self-defense, but yet you chose not even to defend yourself, and your parents abandoned you during sentencing and victim impact statement. Actions speak louder than words. I don't have to say anything. You guys smear your own name without me having to point it out. Everybody in America sees how we're all acting, and it's a damn shame. That spoke volumes when the parents wouldn't even stand there and there was nobody else. Who did his son have? The parents abandoned their son at the toughest moment when he was going to find out how much of his life was going to be spent in a cage.

42:03They peaced out. Have they said that they're sorry at all, Jeff? Has anyone from the Anthony family reached out to you or any of your family members to apologize, to express regrets, to see how you are throughout this whole thing? No, ma 'am. Not one time. Wow. And how about now? Do you feel safe in your own home? Does your ex-wife feel safe in hers, your son? I mean, are you, do you feel threatened at all? I can't speak for my ex-wife, but I myself, I'm very safe. I mean, I am not worried about my personal safety. I'm able to protect myself. it would be a it would be another devastating travesty if someone was to try to interject and approach me.

42:54The website TMZ is reporting today that your family is getting inundated with dozens of death threats and other hateful messages following the conviction. Is that true? Yes, it is. Yeah, it's a daily. It's a daily occurrence. I've turned it over to law enforcement I really don't want to comment too much on it They're going to handle it But it's a daily occurrence of Vile text Actual phone calls that actually They want to talk to me

43:31At some point They're going to have to get tired of it And go on What's done is done The verdict is out You can file for appeal Really, everyone thinks there's new evidence. No, there's not. All the appeal coin does is make sure it was procedures were followed correctly and there was no nothing that was done to interfere with due process. tmz's reporting that you've received messages like they say that these are screen grabs that from from messages sent to you you're just mad because austin's no longer living should have stabbed hunter too um didn't you beat megan i blame you and he effed around and found out about austin is that are these well that's just the tip of the that's just the tip of the iceberg Yeah, that's that's it's unbelievable the amount I get.

44:25And, you know, this is so crazy. Yes, it is. It doesn't it doesn't make it's not rational behavior from a normal human being. Are you worried about Hunter's safety in the wake of these death threats and so on? He looks obviously just like his brother. The hate toward him has been overwhelming. There's a petition now with change.org to have him arrested for assault. Are you concerned about him? Well, every parent, if you're a parent, are you concerned about your children every day? Yes, of course. I've been concerned since he was born, but now doubly so. Yes, because if something was to happen, oh man, that picture, that's the greatest.

45:10I mean, these memories, the people that say, oh, I was an absentee father. Oh, I beat their mother. I've never laid a hand on a woman in my life. You can ask Megan. I may have not been the best person in the world, but I guarantee one thing. I never once laid a hand on her. I don't believe in that. I taught my boys that. You do not ever touch women. I don't care if they hit you first. You do not strike a woman. That's just something I was taught from when I was raised, and I passed it on to my boys. These are some of the pictures of your twins growing up together, and this video played, I understand, as you gave your victim impact statement in court.

45:55How is Hunter doing? This must have been incredibly hard for him in particular. To be honest, Hunter is amazing. I spoke to him a couple of nights ago when he came over And we stepped out front by ourselves And I wanted to tell him something I said, son, when you walked up on that witness stand You were a boy When you stepped down from that witness stand You were a man I said, I have been hard on you And I have drilled so much into you I know you're sick of me telling you But I always told him about communication is the key. If you can't communicate, you're going to have problems with every part of your life, with your job, with your family, with your relationships.

46:42If you cannot effectively articulate your words and string them together in a sentence to convey your emotions or your thoughts in an effective manner so other people can understand you, you're going to be limited. And when he got up on that stand, because I was more emotional when I did my impact statement than him. He was calm, under control, held his emotions in check, was respectful, was direct, communicated in a very soft but firm and strong way to get his point across. And to ask that man, young man, with respect, he said, please look me in the eye. at least Carmelo gave him at least five, 10 seconds of looking me down and then straight back down.

47:36He wouldn't do that for me, but Hunter walked down off that witness stand as a man. And I told him last night or not before that I hugged him. I said, from now on, son, I don't look at you as a boy. I look at you as a man. I'm going to treat you as such. Wow. Were they identical, Jeff were they identical twins yes they were Austin was born a couple of minutes before and so but yes they were very identical I actually used to have to take a black sharpie and color in hunters toenail black so we could tell them apart when they were on the floor or we wouldn't get confused and the joke was you know you're you're from the black toe tribe because we do we we do have Native American heritage in us we do have our Indian cards So we kind of joke about that.

48:32And he asked me, what tribe are we? And I was like, well, you're from the Black Toe tribe. And so that was a running joke for years. You're from the Clear Toe, you over there, Clear Toe. I asked you if you'd learned anything about Carmelo Anthony in the past year. We know precious little about Austin. I'd love to hear about what kind of kid Austin was. the day he was killed at 10 o 'clock in the morning our church held a vigil impromptu vigil at 7 p.m that night our church holds 1500 people it was completely full and overflowed of two or 300 people more in the lobby we had me family friends who spoke about austin and how he touched everyone when i spoke about austin uh i told the story that i've told many times i've told when i had cancer is people don't remember how much money you had people don't remember what kind of car you drove or how big your bank account was, but people always remember how you made them feel.

49:49And they put their footprints on your heart. They leave a lasting impression in some positive way. And that's what's called a legacy. That's what you leave behind. Because when you live, when you're born, you have nothing. When you die, you go out with nothing. There's no U-Haul behind a Hirsch. But what you leave behind is the people that you impacted in their life. And Austin was special. He had the ability to be a leader, to show compassion, to encourage his teammates, to lift up and discover. I mean, I tried to make them go to church so many times before, but they found it through God, through their friends.

50:36God works through them. So I was fortunate that he found God. I was very, very lucky to have him as a son. And I could go on for days and tell you stories about Austin and Hunter and me. Jeff, I hope we can continue the discussion sometime. I'm wishing you and your family nothing but wellness and healing. God bless you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you again. For 250 years, Americans have believed in a powerful idea that we were meant to live free. Free to work hard, free to move, free to enjoy life without being held back. But if everyday aches and pains are slowing you down, it might be time for you to declare your independence from pain.

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52:51We are turning now to Kelly's Court. Joining me now, Mark Garrago. He's the co-host of In the Well on our MK True Crime channel, which is a podcast called MK True Crime. And we have different shows on that podcast. So go ahead and subscribe now to the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts for free. And you can just go to mktruecrime.com as well, which will direct you to all the right places. Arthur Idalla is also here. He's our pal, longtime pal, and he's the host of the Arthur Idalla Power Hour, former prosecutor, former, Well, now, current defense attorney, civil lawyer does it all. Does it all.

53:27Guys, thank you for being here. Great to see you both. Oh, my God. Poor Jeff Metcalf. That was tough. This poor guy, in addition to losing his son, has had to deal with nonstop harassment. They're treating him like his boy is the one who committed the murder of a black boy. That's how this is being treated, like he's some racist kid who committed a murder for no reason. It's exactly the opposite. He did nothing wrong. He was trying to ask this kid to leave, and he paid for that with his life. Arthur, what do you make of what's happening to this poor family? Well, I listened to the interview, and I don't know who the rebel rouser is that you were referring to, their spokesperson down there in Texas.

54:15who the dominique alexander is his name so megan it has literally become people you know this it's become an industry it's become like a way to make a living is to be spoke a spokesperson for these cases you can imagine how many there are in new york um i'm representing a police officer who's hispanic who killed someone who's hispanic all the witnesses and all the cops are hispanic and And they're making this a racial thing where everyone is the same exact race. And, I mean, they're screaming and they're yelling. I mean, they ripped me apart for defending the sergeant. And it's what they do. They just create problems.

54:57They're unethical. They're absolutely – now, there are no ethics, right? They're not lawyers. They're not judges. So they play by – and they're taking money. They're, in my opinion, stealing people's money. I don't think they are providing any service, any benefit. I think typically they wind up making things much worse. But because of all the social media and the clicks and all, I mean, you just rattled off like eight podcasts that I never heard of where all these different interviews are taking place. So, hey, why not? And I love the question you asked rhetorically. Where is all that GoFundMe money?

55:34and I did see he filed an indigent client, meaning he has no money to do his appeal. $600 ,000 is a significant amount of money for anybody, even though the Mark Derogos is a little - To blow through in a year? I mean, that's a lot of money right there. So it's tragic. It's tragic. And the twin brother, and you highlighted that as well, Megan, And, you know, my best friend who I lost on 9-11, as tragic as his parents were, his siblings were. They still haven't recovered 25 years later. And I'm not exaggerating. And to be a twin, I mean, that has to take everything to a whole nother level. So, you know, and talk about the legality of it.

56:22I've never tried a self-defense case where the defendant didn't testify and talked about why he had to act the way he did in self-defense. Mm hmm. There's a reason they didn't put him on the stand. I think we all know they must have concluded he would have made a terrible witness. I mean, in a self-defense claim, Mark, to not put him up there. And he's the only one. He's the only one who could say what was in his heart when Austin Metcalf came over to him, why he said to Austin Metcalf, you know, push, try to touch me and you'll find out. Touch me and you'll see. Why did you say that? Why were you inviting him to touch you?

56:59what was in your head as the you'll see part of that exchange. Why did you bring the knife? All those things, if he had good explanations for them, I think we would have heard them. Yeah, except it's not the law. And it's an interesting, one of the things that a judge instructs the jury in every single criminal case in America. Yeah, but isn't it different when it's self-defense as the defense? I know he has no obligation to testify and you can't hold it against him that he didn't. But he's raising, his whole defense is, It was self-defense. I was afraid. I was threatened. Right. And if you really believed as the lawyer, still the one tactical decision that you don't get to make as a lawyer is whether to call your client or not.

57:45I've actually gone into chambers in murder cases and said it's over my dead body that the client is taking, pun intended, taking the stand. in a self-defense case, I've had more than a few cases where I had a result that was a voluntary manslaughter without the client taking the stand. People, I think in this case, didn't understand. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense lawyer. This did not strike me ever as a self-defense case. Yes, you invoke self-defense, but it was always going to be based on what was reported. And unfortunately, we didn't have cameras in the courtroom.

58:29But based on what was reported, this was always an excessive force against whatever the push, the shove, whatever the initiation was. If it's excessive force, then you're aiming for a reduction that you're negating malice you're trying to get a manslaughter you could argue both you can argue both in your summation you could say you know look our position is that he acted in self-defense he had fear and these are the reasons why now you can't get into the reasons why if he doesn't testify he if you don't know what's in his head if he doesn't testify hypothetically if he says well yeah i saw the deceased beat up two other kids just a week ago and he broke the guy's nose and he was bleeding all over the place that's why i acted the way he did i did well now you can have a really sound argument but you can tell the jury and if you discount our theory of self-defense this is also a case where the judge is giving you a lesser included so therefore you can say you can determine whether he just he used excessive force under these situations and try to get what's called a compromise verdict and to Arthur's point.

59:38They rejected all of them. They had manslaughter offered up a silver platter and the jury said no. And then when offered the sudden passion mitigating factor on the sentencing phase, they rejected it again because that would have had a maximum of 20 years. And they gave him 35. The jury didn't buy it. They didn't buy it. It's like I know like maybe the family, the lawyer bargained that people would hear that he was asked to leave the tent and would infer that this was a racial thing and get mad at Austin Metcalf or trying to kick the black kid out in the rain, then laying hands on the black kid as this hulking white boy.

1:00:19They didn't buy it. They knew it was bullshit. They knew you don't stab somebody in the heart for telling you to leave a tent and literally just placing a hand on you. Go ahead, Mark. The problem was, from their standpoint, as all cases, in my experience, it's over in jury selection. When you don't have in jury selection, African Americans on that jury, it's preordained what your verdict's going to be. Okay, tell me why. I'll tell you why. I remember during the George Zimmerman trial, in fact, Mark O'Mara still teases me. Mark O'Mara was the lawyer for George Zimmerman. As soon as they got that jury, and it was an all-white jury, I went public and said, the only way Zimmerman loses, or O'Mara loses this case, is if he falls and trips and hits his head.

1:01:09Because you are never, as a defense lawyer, going to change who the person is. Just take a look at our political scene today. Take a look at kind of the left versus right, Republican versus Democrat. You don't change, you're not changing anybody's hearts and minds as a lawyer. What you're doing is you're picking a jury that will look at what your defense is and either buy it or not buy it. Either the story resonates or the story doesn't resonate. You can't change in a week, in a month, even in a one-year trial, the way somebody views life. And so once you had that jury, for whatever reasons, and that jury was selected, you have to course correct to give them whatever arguments.

1:01:59And hopefully the lawyer, when he was doing that, understood. And by the way, the judge did give him a manslaughter. That wasn't necessarily required when the client doesn't take the stand. That was a victory for the defense. But at the same time, I guarantee you, if he still had any neurons firing, the lawyer had tried to question his client. And I can tell you, having raised a teenage boy, having represented countless teenage boys, there's rarely the teenage boy that you're going to want to put on the stand who's going to withstand a cross examination. It just is, it's virtually impossible. But you can find, let me just say this though.

1:02:46You can absolutely find black jurors who would have convicted Carmelo Anthony in a heartbeat and white jurors who would have acquitted him had the evidence been there. And I've been wanting to play this. I saw this on X last night and I was like, you know, because I feel like so many people are generalizing about black people because we're seeing a lot of black people outside of this courthouse saying vile things to the Metcalf family and making this a race thing and saying we got to protect ours. They don't speak for all black people. That's this bullshit. Most black people are normal, just like white people.

1:03:19You know, they're good. They're bad. They're in between all the things they don't have, like, saddled with racial grievance all the time. And they can't be fair jurors and they can't see justice when it's administered or it's not. And that brings me to this father whose name I don't know. It just it's a viral video on X. he's sitting there with his I think they're all boys he says they're boys but it's five black children on his lap behind him a couple are babies so you can never tell gender so much with the babies I accept him that these are the five black children and listen to this guy Sot 19 what do you want us to do what do you want us to do at this point what I'm lost I don't know what to do I got five boys I don't know what I ain't got nothing to tell them no more you can't walk away no more.

1:04:05What do you want us to do? I also have five boys. She doesn't know what to do after the Carmelo is here. I'm gonna go ahead and try something. Today boys when you go out into school, don't stab any other kids. You think you guys can do that? You feel good about that, lady? You feel good about that, Ace? Yeah. Oh, you're the answer. This is Ace. So is that a good commitment from everybody? We're not going to stab any kids today? Probably not. Hey, try that, lady. That might work. Yeah, it wasn't really my day. I love that. Basic personal accountability and respect for others, Arthur. I did not think that was the type of flip we were going to play.

1:05:01Neither did I. I did not expect that. Can I just address what Mark was talking about, a jury selection? It's amazing. Think of the black people you know. That's what they're like. The black people I know are like, he stabbed him in the heart. They're not saying he deserved it because he placed hands on him and said, leave our tent at a sporting event in which they were rivals. The people outside of that courthouse are nutcases. The people in the media backing up like Jasmine Crockett are nutcase activist types. Regular black people are not having this reaction. Maybe I'm wrong. Some are. But I just think the average person, black, white, Hispanic, what have you, understands perfectly well what happened down there.

1:05:43The kid snapped. I don't know why. I don't know what was in the background. He snapped. And it was murder. Like he obviously understood plunging a knife into another man's heart so deep and so hard that the heart had a two and a half inch wound and that he he nicked the bone behind it. That kid was there to kill Austin Metcalf in that moment. Go ahead, Arthur. A couple of things. I just want to address what what Mark said about a jury and jury selection. um it's it's that i agree with what you also said megan is that there are plenty of black jurors who can pick black people and white jurors can pick white people but but mark is correct i mean what i say when i lecture at law schools megan you're gonna get a kick out of this is you know a trial it's like making gravy it's like making sunday sauce right that is sunday sauce but if you start with bad tomatoes.

1:06:41It doesn't matter how much meatballs and sausage and everything. You're never going to have a good sauce. So if you start with a bad jury, it doesn't matter how talented you think you are. If they're just so predetermined to be against you. Now, my limited understanding is that's one of the big issues that is going to be raised at the trial here. There were minorities on this jury that just weren't black people. There were minorities. They were Hispanics and they were Asians. There were three. Apparently, there were three African-American women who were struck from the jury by the prosecution and one after the other after the other.

1:07:18And the argument at the appeal is going to be that they were struck by the prosecutor because they were black. Now, the law is. Which is illegal. You can you can strike jurors for any reason. You can strike them because you don't like their hair color. You cannot strike them because you don't like their skin color. They're like the the things. There are a few things that you cannot strike a juror, a juror, a prospective juror based on race is one of them. But they have a defense to that. They said they were all teachers and that's why they didn't want them. You have to give a race neutral reason as to why you dismiss those two or three people.

1:07:53Can I ask Arthur a question? And the judge believed that. Yeah, well, I was going to say, Arthur, have you ever met a prosecutor who couldn't give you a pretext as to why they excuse somebody? What kind of nonsense is and why does a prosecutor who's got the burden of proof, why do they need a peremptory challenge? I think, you know, they have the burden of proof. Why should they be able to exercise peremptories? At least in federal courts, somebody understands that it's an uneven playing field and the defense gets more peremptories than the prosecution. I've always thought the prosecutors shouldn't even have a peremptory they're so confident there goes the president but Megan what people bleeding heart criminal defense you're going to take away somebody's liberty why not prove your case if you think the case is so great why can't both sides have a few in their back pocket who they get to bounce for no cause whatsoever sometimes it's a teacher it just happens to be a black teacher.

1:08:52I don't like teachers. The case happened on a school ground. You know exactly what the prosecution was thinking. These three are going to get on there and they're going to be like, I'm the authority because I'm the teacher. Let me tell you how these things work. A lot of lawyers, criminal defense and prosecution say, I don't want some expert going on there. I'm the expert. I'll tell them what to think. Let me guess. If they had a cop on that jury, the prosecutor would have bounced the cop because he didn't want the authority. Come on, Megan, And let's not be let's not be naive. They were bouncing the people for a specific reason.

1:09:23We can make the argument any other way. Oh, you're alleging racism and a violation of the law with zero foundation alleging. See, this is where I think people get mistaken. They say it's racism. No, it is bouncing. And when I say bouncing, I mean, using a peremptory on somebody because you think as the prosecutor, that person is going to have an affinity for the defendant. That does not necessarily, when people say, well, that's racist. But it's illegal if they do it for race. You're accusing them of violating their ethics. It's illegal. But how do you prove it's illegal as long as the prosecutor is clever enough to give you a pretextual reason?

1:10:10But it's got to hold you up. Arthur, you tell me. Because the defense tried this. Even that loser defense lawyer who was terrible did try this. He stood up and he was like, they just struck the three black jurors. And the prosecutor said, that's because they're educators and I don't want three teachers on the jury. And he said, you let a white woman go on the jury, but it sounds like she wasn't a teacher. I don't like that. If the white woman who he let go on the jury is a teacher and has the same resume as the three black people, now we're talking. but the judge wasn't persuaded by the facts as they stood.

1:10:45Well, you are correct, Megan. And, you know, I don't know the reason why they didn't want him on the jury. The teachers was for the authority part as much as the sympathy part. They're going to be teachers. They're with young people all the time. They're going to know the consequences of their verdict. If he gets found guilty, he's going to spend the majority of his life in prison. So that's why, as a prosecutor, I would not want a teacher who are with children. I mean, their life is children and it's protecting children and enriching children. And so their DNA is to help children. And this kid is basically a child.

1:11:20So that's why I would say, judge, you know, and I would make that exact argument I just made on the record to the judge. Here's why they're going to be overly sympathetic to the jury. They're going to have to the to the defendant. They're going to have a prejudice against the prosecution and for the defendant because they're going to look at the prosecution. not as someone who's trying to do justice, but is trying to say, hey, one kid is dead and now we're going to kill another kid. So that's the but the more you give the judge to say this is a very race neutral reason, the stronger it is. That's why I don't think this is a strong appellate issue for the defense.

1:11:58OK, but here's here's what's crazy now. Now you've got there was at least one juror who was bounced because he said during voir dire, Quote, I don't know if I feel right putting a brother in jail. Bye. I mean, I appreciate the guy's honesty. But here's what's happening now. Here's now what we're getting in reaction to this verdict by the activist class. This is from the Gin and Juice podcast. Take a listen to SOT17. If they say, can you be fair? Don't say, no, I'm not. I'm not going to put a black man in jail. Don't say that. You have to go and be like, no, I will hear the evidence. I can be fair.

1:12:42When damn near half of the black people who could have been on the jury counseled themselves out, you know, don't do that. When you go up there, say, no, I have never heard about this case. I can be fair. Say that. Okay. And then mean it, believe it a little bit. Don't tell them you can't be impartial. I believe in the rule of law. so don't go in there and act like all of a sudden you have to be the most honest person you've ever been yeah that's interesting don't be interesting by the way if you don't think that applies for pro-prosecution jurors i can give you i have caught so many stealth jurors who lied to get onto a jury to fry the client it applies to both sides so megan you know how do you get past that Let me just tell you, you know where it happened really extensively?

1:13:35The first Harvey Weinstein trial I did. They would come in. We interviewed them one on one. And they, oh, I could be so fair. I could do whatever, swearing on their children that they would give them a fair trial. And then they were struck for whatever reason. We followed up on their Facebook and their Instagram. And they were like, I was almost on the jury to convict that Burt Ball. I couldn't wait to send him to jail. By the way, Arthur. They were lying to us so blatantly. Arthur, during Scott Peterson's trial, we did what's called in California back in the day, Hovey Vordire. You bring people in individually.

1:14:10That's what we did. In Weinstein, that's what we did. Yeah. And I actually had a woman who I liked. She said, oh, I changed my mind when I first heard I was coming in this case. But my dad told me, what if it was your brother? And I thought, wow, this is great. I get back to the hotel where I'm staying. Somebody sent me a chat room. It's 20 years ago. and she says, I really hoodwinked that defense lawyer. I'm going to lie, get it on the jury, and I'm going to fry his client. I did it to us, Megan. You know the supermodel, I guess, Gigi, her dad? You know who that is? Because I didn't. Yeah. She did it.

1:14:45So when she walks in, my co-host goes like, Gigi? I don't know, Gigi. Isn't that a Broadway show, Gigi? I don't know who it is. So she comes in one-on-one. She must have caught your eye a little. I'm not buying that. I'm not buying that at all. Absolutely not. She was like, she looks like a 12 year old boy. It's not my thing, but she, she swore to us. Absolutely. I can be fair. And we're like, well, you're in that industry. Isn't it? Aren't you going to be by? No, no, no. He deserves a fair trial. I forget which side struck her. And Oh, you should have seen what she wrote on Facebook. I was so close to sending that fat SOB to jail for life.

1:15:21I mean, they just blatantly on their children, on a stack of Bibles. Lie to your face. She, she, She's a 5 '11 supermodel, but OK, I accept that she didn't catch your eye at all, 12-year-old boy. I was going to say, I don't know what junior high article went to. Jeez. Reagan knows my wife. All right. Well, let me keep going because there's a lot more to get to. So does anyone think this appeal has any sort of a chance? They may raise the juror challenge, you know, that they're going to argue that these jurors were clearly stricken because they were black. and that was illegal. I mean, that is the kind of thing if an appellate court decided to revisit it that could get you a new trial, but there's no evidence of it.

1:16:04I mean, like they'd have to have something very strong, would they not? Have you guys ever seen a new trial granted on those grounds and was it stronger grounds than this? I have, but you would have to have some, to your point, you're absolutely correct. It's a heavy lift. You would need some kind of a declaration. You would need some kind of really compelling evidence that somebody was either, you know, one of the things that I've found, Arthur may have seen this, you have a jury strike list by the prosecution. If there was an initial, a B or something for black or some kind of rating, I've seen that.

1:16:43I've actually seen that happen where that was discovered years later and it ended up being the basis for a habeas to get somebody free. Oh my Lord. No. So they'd be that lucky. That would be an amazing. You seem to have it. Let me just talk about the appellate issue. You seemed I did not pay enough attention to have an opinion on the defense attorney's performance. But you I don't he was dreadful. OK, so then one of the issues, one of the things you could bring up is ineffective assistance of counts. Now, it's a very high bar. Can we talk about what the dreadfulness was? And let me run it by you guys as the seasoned experts who do this for a living now.

1:17:19still. Um, this guy, for example, um, he got up there and he said to the one witness, uh, you, you and I have barely talked, right? Like I talked to you for two minutes or something. And the guy was like, yeah, you know, what's against Steve? Yeah, it was his own witness. It was his witness. And he's like, we don't know each other. We basically haven't spoken at all. And the guy was like, right. And then that guy gave his testimony that was supposed to be helpful to Carmelo Anthony. It wasn't. It wound up not being that helpful. On cross-examination, he was exposed as having completely collapsed, and then he adopted the prosecution's theory of the case.

1:17:56And the prosecutor got up there and he's like, you and I have talked many times, right? Like we know each other. I have talked to you. And he's like, yeah, yeah, I know who you are. I know. So like on the one side, you have a diligent prosecutor who's been, you know, all along speaking to witnesses, figuring out what they're going to say, figuring out his cross - examination. And you have a defense lawyer who called the witness, who doesn't know anything about what he's going to say and the thing implodes. Now, I feel like that's just one example. I thought he was ineffective from start to finish.

1:18:23I just thought it was, he should have done what you said, Arthur. He should have said, here's our main defense, but here's our alternative argument. If you don't accept that, and here's all the proof that, you know, heat of passion or whatever. He didn't, he wasn't effective on any of this, but you have to prove not only was it ineffective assistance. You have to prove that if you had a Garagos or Idala in there, the result would have been different, right? That it was, it actually did affect the outcome, that you would have had a serious likelihood of an acquittal if you had effective assistance.

1:18:59And this case was open and shut. The facts really weren't even in dispute. So doesn't that kill that appeal? If the kid, if the kid signed a declaration, like, uh, like Mark was saying that he says, I really wanted to testify. And my lawyer stopped me from testifying. I wanted to tell my side of the story. But my lawyer, who's twice my age, and my family paid him, and he spoke to Noah's thing, he told me, no, no, no, you can't testify. And I needed to tell my story. And judges really believed that. And it is a self-defense case. So it is very relevant. It's not like a pie in the sky. But look, I can just tell you, in New York, to get an ineffective assistance of counsel is very difficult.

1:19:43The key case has to do with a lawyer literally sleeping at the table where it's on the record. The judge is like, Mr. Jones, are you sleeping right now? Mark was tired. He was tired. Stop it. Arthur, that was a Texas case. The sleeping lawyer was out of Texas. I did not know that. And that's where this case is. Well, do you disagree, Mark, that it's next to impossible on ineffective assistance? Ineffective assistance is a very high bar because it isn't whether or not if you had Johnny Cochran or you had the second coming of Clarence Darrow, it's basically are you, you know, I always joke about probable cause has been reduced.

1:20:25Are you breathing? The is my client breathing. But for ineffective assistance, it's not a high bar to be thought of as competent. And basically, judges say, could this have been a tactical decision? Could this lawyer, is there a way to spin whatever decision the client is complaining about that the lawyer had a reason to do it tactically? If they did, the judges are dismissive of it. the reason why i brought up him testifying and mark uh said it earlier and when it comes to a trial that the main decisions that only the defendant can make is to take a plea or not to take a plea and to testify or not to testify and so that the testify or not testifying that's that's a that's a third rail if the judges believed that this kid really wanted to testify and the judge and his lawyer prevented him from testifying that's something that i'm going to all i'll say if they're going to take it into consideration strongly.

1:21:25Well, Arthur's point, I make a habit of having the judge do an inquiry just so that you don't go down this road when the prosecutor rests and have the judge do it on the record. And in the instance, as I mentioned before, to Arthur's point, I actually will take the client into chambers, have it transcribed if If they're taking the stand over my objection, I've only done it a couple of times. But I think of the one where a client did it after I thought I had tried the best defense case within the prosecutions you could ever do. And he did it over my over my vehement objection. And, you know, day one, he did well.

1:22:08Day two, he disintegrated. So that's how it goes. That's why you don't want that. All right, stand by, because there is breaking news right now in the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni case. We have a ruling from the judge on her demand that he pay her legal fees plus punitive damages times three. She wants them trebled or tripled. We've got a ruling. That's next. Let me tell you something. When you sign your insurance policy for some brokers, that's the finish line. Handshake, commission, done. See ya. Then you may never hear from them again, or at least not until it's time for a renewal when they become your best friend once again.

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1:26:04Mark Garagos and Arthur Idalla are back with me now. And guys, big news out of the Baldoni versus Lively dispute. The judge in the case, Louis J. Lyman, has agreed that Justin Baldoni must pay Blake Lively's attorney's fees expended in defending his defamation claim against her. He has rejected her request for additional punitive or triple damages, which is a very good thing for Justin. The attorney's fees, less good. This is her submission under a policy under California law referred to as Section 47.1, which was enacted to protect Me Too victims, sexual harassment or sexual abuse victims who file claims and then get countersued for defamation by defendants who wish to harass them, who wish to silence them.

1:27:05It was a way of empowering them against more empowered, more richer, more famous, more connected defendants that they may be suing for sexual harassment who try to bully them into silence with a counterclaim for defamation. I know that because we interviewed the woman behind the law, the woman whose idea it was and the woman who was the architect of the law. Her name is Victoria Burke, and she was very against this law being used by Blake Lively. She was she came on and said, this is the last thing I had in mind. She's more powerful than he is. She's better connected. She's richer. And she admitted she revealed to us exclusively that Blake Lively's lawyers had come to Victoria Burke to say, we really want Blake to be the face of this law and to take it national.

1:27:58So it's not just California and three other states, which it is now, but it's 50 states and that Blake Lively will be the champion for this law who brings it everywhere. And this woman, Victoria, who, unlike Blake Lively, is an actual survivor of sexual assault, said, no, I don't want your help, you weird lady. I'm doing a good job on my own, and I have a strategy, and I'd much rather stay under the radar than have you go out there in your stupid Met Gala dress and try to make yourself the face of my law. So this judge has kind of split the baby from the look of it, saying, all right, under the explicit terms of 47.1, I guess I have to give her her attorney's fees, but I'm not doing any of that other nonsense.

1:28:50And it is a loss for Team Baldoni, which made the argument that this law couldn't even be enforced and that it's probably unconstitutional. They wanted him to like not give her anything, but they didn't quite get that. But it's much better to just get her fees awarded to her, Mark, than to get her fees and punies and times three. I look if I was prognosticating and I did prognosticate and truth be told, talk to Brian about it. I didn't ever think they were going to get trouble or punitive damages. I expected only because there is part of what was built into the settlement agreement was a no appeal.

1:29:30So the judge basically could act with impunity and he didn't have to worry about the circuit reversing him. The strict language of the statute would seem to suggest that you have to award fees. But there's still yet another battle, even though the order says case closed. they're going to submit their fees requests and costs, and then the judge is going to whittle it down. Brian's team is going to file something that says, no, this was not what was intended, and they're going to go back and forth. The judge is going to make the call. But it's not going to come out of Justin Baldoni's pocket. This is all going to be a fight between the insurance companies over who's going to pay this.

1:30:13So it's really much ado about nothing and confirms what you said, Megan, that that settlement was a massive loss for Blake Lively because she paid out of pocket to her attorneys for the entire case. She's not going to get all of her attorney's fees back. She's only going to get a siloed, specific, discreet amount that are cabined to and tethered to the defense of that countersuit, not the entire case. So it's not like she's getting some windfall. She's getting a percentage, some small percentage of what she spent on this case. She got no damages. And as you said, the woman who actually authored the law is running as fast away from her as she possibly can.

1:31:07Here's my question for you, Arthur. She hired like 25 lawyers or something. You know, like she ridiculously overspent because she and her husband, Ryan, are swimming in money, unlike Justin Baldoni. So when the judge gets a submission of what fees were expended only in defending the defamation claim, she doesn't get to get reimbursed. She's the one who filed this case. She filed sexual harassment. He countersued for defamation. So she's not going to get everything. She's not going to get how much it took her lawyers to draft her complaint or to serve process on Justin. And it's from the time he filed that counterclaim, that's when it would start ticking and they're going to have to give an itemized.

1:31:43This is how much was spent in defending that claim. But even so, if they look at that and it's totally excessive because she hired all these. She went balls to the wall. She used Ryan Reynolds money to do it. Is she entitled to all of that or does it have to be reasonable? The judge. What Mark said is true. The judge will. and also what Mark said, it probably will be a lawyer from the insurance company that's going to have to lay this money out saying, hold on a second. First of all, and I'll give some hypotheticals, they're billing out at$3 ,000 an hour. And we can tell you that the average lawyer in this California is billed out at$1 ,200 an hour.

1:32:25So whatever that is, let's take, let's lop that off. Now they have five lawyers working on one motion and let's lop that off. So they may put in a bill for$2 million and they might wind up with getting$600 ,000 in the long run. And don't forget, you know, we talked about earlier jury selection and people's prejudices. It's a federal judge who makes, I don't know,$350 ,000 a year looking at these bills to see that some lawyer is going to make$3 million on this. It's a little bit like, oh, slow down, cowboy. I'm not giving you all of this money, okay? I got a job. You're not getting rich. Yeah, exactly.

1:33:01Arthur, do you know him? I don't know him. I knew his father, Arden Lyman, who was Judge Lyman. His father was a was a worried guy. Yeah. I mean, a storied legend and kind of of an Edward Bennett Williams level of of expertise. I don't get the impression just based on what I've either seen or read about his temperament and his kind of rulings in this case that he's going to write anybody a large check or allow anybody to have a large check written in this. And the truth is, though, Megan, it's not probably going to hurt these lawyers because as you accurately stated, they've already got paid a ton of money on the initial suit.

1:33:48So this is just the other piece of it. But, you know, in general, not necessarily this law. I have no objection to these kinds of cases where attorney's fees can be awarded. I think it should be done more often because it would prevent frivolous lawsuits. It would prevent people saying, I just want to break their chops. I'll give you$100 ,000. Let me just break your chops and see what happens. And if they spent, you spent$100 ,000 on your lawyer, but they spent$300 ,000 on their lawyer. So now you're on the, your lawyer says, look, you're going to give me$100 ,000. I got to tell you, things don't go our way.

1:34:26You could lose money you gave me and the money you gave. Then he's given his lawyers and the judge can give you treble damage. So there should be a little bit more of accountability or potential punishment if you come at them with something that is that really is frivolous and you know you're not going to win, but it's not to the level where you can't file it. So I'm not necessarily against these kinds of laws. I believe it is busting the chop, not breaking the chop. If we if we drill down, isn't it? You're busting my chops. OK, all right. That's what they say in Albany and Brooklyn. I think we say, no, stop breaking my chop.

1:35:04My father's inside. He's from the Bronx. That's not true. In Brooklyn, they say bust. Okay. You're wrong there, too. Listen, when it comes to cursing, Megan Kelly, I'm not in your league. You break balls and you bust chops. I submit my case to the jury of the MK Show. Please email in as our verdict. Who is right on this? It's Megan. Oh, you can say stop busting my... I'll forward you all the responses. You can say stop busting my... My balls, too. Oh, look how sweet you are. You won't say it. My mother watches this. Okay. So I have to be. I know. She knows about me. She's, she already forgives me.

1:35:41Okay. Here's the real question though. Worth it, Mark. You know, like that's my, my number one takeaway is so worth it. Like the defamation case was Justin Baldoni saying, these are lies. this woman is a psychopath. She's claiming I busted in on her when she was breastfeeding. And I have evidence to show you. She invited me in there saying, don't worry. I don't mind if you come in while I'm breastfeeding. You know, like time and time again, she made these allegations against me, which were so false. They were false to the point where I felt I had no choice but to say to the world. She is falsely accusing me to the point of defamation.

1:36:28And now let me tell you everything about the defamation I'm suffering. This whole thing turned the narrative on its head. You had him like labeled as a me too, disgusting, foul pervert by Blake Lively and her rich husband. And when Brian filed that counterclaim, everything changed. So I don't really care what modicum of attorney's fees his insurance has to pay, worth it. Well, you're not kidding. We're old enough, some of us, to remember the Streisand effect. That's been supplanted now. You can call it the lively effect. Never has somebody so lit themselves on fire for absolutely no reason. It was stunning to me that they did it in the first place and they doubled down and they missed the perfect opportunity.

1:37:21When Judge Lyman gutted Baldoni's case as counter-climb, at that point, declare victory and get out and make some kind of a statement. But the idea of continuing and continuing and just continuing to just drive into the center median just made absolutely no sense to me. Yes. Yes. She made herself into another Amber Heard, and she will not recover from that. She's got a nice dress, Megan. She's got a nice dress, Meg. She's got that nice dress. You should borrow it. The sherbert? You and Doug would look great walking around town with that. You go for it. She's so disingenuous. By the way, speaking of disingenuous, did you guys watch The Miracle at MSG the other night when the Knicks turned it around after being down 30 points?

1:38:11Oh, yeah. I had guys at the office have a video of us exploding when it happened. it was unlike, I'm not even a sports person. It was unlike anything we've ever seen. I was sitting there with my daughter and my husband. It was like, no, what? They were down 30. Then they were down 15. It was like, what, what? Okay, but the reason I'm bringing this up is Taylor Swift was there in the front row pretending to be a Knicks fan. And like, oh yeah, here I am. I'm so excited. Oh, the Knicks. By the way, she was just at a Knicks Cleveland game, Cavaliers rooting for Cleveland. Well, that was her husband, right?

1:38:45Who does she think she's kidding? Isn't that her husband's team, Cleveland? I mean, we do have marriages. She was there rooting for them, for the other team. I didn't realize she was rooting for them. Yes. Okay, well. She was there with him. They were rooting for the Cavs. She's a fake New York Knicks fan, and she's a fake person. You know, Arthur, were you even born the last time the Knicks? Yeah, I was six. I don't remember, but I was six. But I was there in 99 when they were in the finals. I was right there. And that was a fantastic situation. But this really the other night was just sick. Yeah.

1:39:21Night was a miracle. The games one and two, which were in Texas. But I was in the city walking in the area of MSG and walking down the street as baskets are being made. And the cheers from the city and the energy in the city. It was just a wonderful thing. You couldn't you couldn't have. It's insane. I'm looking right now as I'm sitting here, Megan, I'm looking at the NBA store. They're big flagship stores diagonally across the street. Not only has it been packed for two weeks, they're staying open like till 10, 11 o 'clock at night. What it has done for the New York economy, this mix run has been fantastic.

1:40:02The bars, the restaurants. We needed this. We was saddled with Mayor Mom Donnie for the love of God. We needed a W. All right. Last but not least, Nick Reiner. This is in your backyard, Mark. Nick Reiner, the son of Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner, who was accused of killing his parents, is working to get his trust fund, which has got a lot of money in it,$1.5 million, to pay for his criminal defense. He's going to get it. It's a very interesting defense because or a question, because normally like in New York, we have the son of Sam law and out there in California have something similar. It doesn't allow you to profit off of your crime.

1:40:46But his argument is that this was a trust he was entitled to long ago, like when he turned 30 and for some reason just didn't get access to it. So it's not like a will, like a like an insurance policy. Right, Mark. So what do you make of it? Is he going to get it? A lot of the chatter online has been, how do you kill your parents or be accused of killing your parents and then profit from it? And that's a separate issue. This is a trust, if you believe what is being actually filed, that was formed when he was a youngster and a child. And it was one of these trusts that was set up when parents are worried that it's going to screw up their kids and make them trust fund babies.

1:41:28So it was not supposed to kick in until he turned 30. It was not distributed when he was 30. And they're going to litigate that. But my guess is, as a practical matter, when a judge sees this application and understands, look, right now, the taxpayers are paying for his defense through the Office of Public Defender. If I free up money here from the trust to pay Alan Jackson, that's going to be a zero sum game of money that we don't have to pay as taxpayers. So I expect that that money will get freed up. The financial aspect to the taxpayers is right on. I mean, Megan, should a guy who's got$1.5 million in the bank get, you know, in this case, they'll give him three lawyers, two paralegals, a secretary.

1:42:25You know, it'll be a whole law firm literally working on this case. And the people in California are paying for it. You know, if it was in federal court, I think the federal judge would say, because they're much more strict in federal court about getting a free lawyer. He would say, no, no, no, let me see all of your finances, all of your assets. No, no, no, you're not getting a free lawyer. well you got you know even 75 000 bucks there go find a lawyer there's some guy out there for 75 grand who's going to take your case so you know it it does have something to do with why should the taxpayers be paying for his defense when there's all this money's there sitting and he's never going to use it anyway because he's except for his commissary behind bars i know but like the the siblings i'm sure are angry at the thought of their parents it's really the parents money that they gifted to him.

1:43:15He's, I guess, 32. So he was supposed to receive a disbursement at age 30, which didn't happen while Michelle and Rob were still alive. And then another one at 35. I don't know. I can see the argument against doing it, but I take your point of they'd rather saddle the trust with the burden and not the California taxpayer. Guys, a great discussion all around. Have a great weekend. Go Knicks. Thank you. Great seeing both of you. Bye, you guys. Aw, likewise. All right, have a great weekend to all of you as well. We'll see you Monday. And do send in those emails about the show, about life, about anything on your mind.

1:43:53It's Megan at MeganKelley.com. See you Monday. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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