Baby Lisa's Disappearance - Megyn Kelly Investigates: Answering YOUR Questions and Key Updates

28:53This is the life of an addict recovering or using, but certainly using. Without a doubt. I mean, it was a, I wholeheartedly believe, you know, people ask the question, why would he take the baby. Well, how do any of us know what runs in the mind of a meth addict? You know, he, if I remember correctly, he said he found the cell phones. And in my opinion, that was to cover the tracks for the attempted call. If we remember the phone bill wasn't paid. So the phone call did not go through, but the phone company logged it as an attempt. So in his mind, being from the streets and having street smarts, you know, there's a difference.

29:33He knew he had to cover that up. So he told his attorney or his would be attorney that, uh, yeah, he fat. Yeah. Yeah. I found the phones. I made the call. So if anything, what I think, I think he left the baby or to your point, Meg, maybe have traded the baby for drugs and what happened from there, who knows. And in the entire series, that to me was the most incriminating thing we heard from anyone The interview with Cindy Short, who had represented the Irwins, the mom and the dad, for a short time before being dismissed because there was sort of a turf war between her and Joe Takapina, and he won.

30:09And then on her own, went and found Jersey in the jail, sat down with him, talked with him for some 10 hours. And in that interview, he told her he found the three stolen cell phones that had been taken from the Irwins' house that night. and then allegedly discarded them. And then when we got him on camera, denied him. But he actually said, he said he found three phones. He didn't know what, which he found, stacked, you know, three phones. Then he finds three phones together. In the middle of the night, right? Yeah, sure. So we actually got a question about that. This is from Rick. He writes, when Cindy talked to John Tanko, Cindy Short, the lawyer, talked to John Tanko in prison and he said he had the phones and was with a woman.

30:57What about that woman? I watched the rest of the episode and you never came back to if Cindy asked who the woman was. Isn't that a huge item to leave out? Let's say this woman wanted a baby, this mystery woman, and John and Megan Wright got the baby for her. And after doing that, Megan Wright knows how bad of a thing she did, resulting in her getting sober. Do we know anything, Brian, about the woman? I mean, this was from Cindy Short, but I don't think Cindy knew anything more about her or got anything more about her. Correct, that's right. Cindy said she did not get a name. It was like another street person kind of, you know, and she had no idea who the woman was and he didn't have her name or offer her name.

31:44Here is, just so people are with us, here's Sot7 Tanko talking about what he said to Cindy Short when she visited him in the jail cell. He did tell me, though, that he had found three cell phones. And he told me where he had found them. He also claimed to have told the police that he had found three cell phones. And he's telling me where, which is not very far from the house. So he's placing himself, not just the proximity of the phones, but in possession of the phones. He's claiming that he's with another woman. And we we have videotape of the underpass where he claims he found the phones thanks to Brian, because this is how it works.

32:26Like Cindy says this to me in an interview. I talked to Mary and Brian. We said we need to figure out exactly where they were. Brian went on the ground and got you guys that footage. All this stuff is just sort of a behind the scenes on how we produce TV for people. And, you know, it takes a real life person to actually go and figure it out and talk to Cindy again. Exactly where? Let me get a shot. Is it representative? And like, let's be careful. So all that stuff went into it. Then when we confronted him, Bill, of course, I asked him about that. And he claimed it was all lies he told Cindy Short.

32:57Did you have those phones? Because we we understand that you told a lawyer, Cindy Short, that you found those phones. I'm doing whatever she wanted me to hear. I didn't tell her I found those phones. I found phones that night, but I didn't find them. No, nothing. Oh, why? It's because she's asked me a million questions and I don't want to make her happy, whatever. It's kind of interesting, Phil Houston, that he didn't lie. That he didn't just say, I mean, I think he did lie, but that he didn't, if he's going to lie, why didn't he just say, I never told Cindy Short that? The lie that he's, is concealment of the fact that they're the real phones.

33:40he he he it sounds to me the way it was characterized is that it was a random finding of some phones and he said i didn't i didn't say it was those phones and what i think he is covering then he also says and i didn't tell her that like that and he's like i was i know he says i told her that but it was a lie so let me just be clear you know i did say something to her about three phones, not the three phones, but phones, but it was all lies that I just told her to tell her what she wanted to hear. Why wouldn't he just say that never happens? Cindy Short's a liar. Yeah, because he has to cover up his tracks.

34:20The original reason that he told her about finding the phones was so that if those phones were ever recovered or found because he got rid of them somehow and they had his fingerprints on them, and is there anyone else who saw him with those phones? For example, there was a reference to another woman, and then you have the call to Megan Wright. If they connected that evening, then that means that someone else knows that he was in possession of those phones. So he has to cover up and come up with a reason as to why he had some phones. Yes, exactly. And also, Megan, he knows he made that call. He knows it.

35:07So it's like, you know, the planes, when they got a missile locked in, they throw up flares to distract. He is putting up so much distraction. And the best liars, in my experience, they stay as close to the truth as possible and take a baby step to the left or right. I mean, when I go undercover, that's what I do. Keep it simple, stupid. So you could remember your lies. And that's what he, in my opinion, that's what he's doing here. Oh, yeah, I told her I found the phones. Now, he could retract that if he was ever pressed. But in my opinion, he believes he's so far past getting convicted. That's why he felt he can engage in and control the narrative.

35:48Because we don't believe his denial. We believe that he did tell Cindy Short that. And when he did that, he probably did that because he didn't know what she knew. He didn't know whether law enforcement had the phones. He didn't know exactly what the evidence would be because this is right after the disappearance about him and those phones. And so if he had stolen them along with the baby, he had to say enough to Cindy to find out what she knew, what does she have on the phones, but not to incriminate himself for having stolen them. That's our belief. It's all so chilling. And Phil always teaches in his deception detection class and in his books, Spy the Lie, that one of the signs has to be as part of a cluster, meaning within the first five seconds after you ask the question.

36:37because like, for example, looking away, that could be a sign of deception, but not if it's by itself. But if it's with another sign of deception and Phil outlines them all within the five second cluster or within the five second answer, it can be a cluster, which is a deception thing. And so one of the things Phil talks about is hands above the midline. Because Phil, why? Why do your hands go above the midline sometimes when you lie? Typically, it's a spike in anxiety, the fight or flight or freeze response. Someone asks you a question and it puts you on the spot. Your anxiety immediately spikes.

37:18And that spike in anxiety causes a rerouting of your circulation. And that circulation, as it rushes away to the muscles and the things that are going to help you get away or get out of this, face this threat, they irritate the capillaries. And as a result, you find yourself playing with your ears or your nose because blood is being drawn away from those things that could be, that normally require a lot of blood. he's up on a ladder. He's already got a barrier between the two of us, but then he starts waving his arms around in this particular answer. Let's watch it again, just with all that in mind.

38:04Did you have those phones? Because we understand that you told a lawyer, Cindy Short, that you found those phones. I'm feeling whatever she wanted me to hear. I didn't tell her I found those phones. Waving the hands. I found phones that night, but I didn't find them. More waving? No, nothing. Oh, why? Just because she's asking a million questions. I don't want to - Waving. I just make her happy, whatever. I mean, every second of it with the hand here and then the big, big, big, and then back here and then big, big, big. So would you peg that as anxiety, Phil? Yeah, absolutely. It was a great question.

38:42He wasn't expecting it. And you followed up and he thought he had satisfied you, I think in terms of your curiosity with his answer in the previous question. And in fact, you just kept going. And he's getting more and more nervous, more anxious. All right. Sonia, have you thought at all about how quickly Tanko answered the question about whether the ex-girlfriend, Megan Wright, wanted a baby? The way he answered made me feel like he could have taken the baby for her. but then when he called her and said he had a baby for them, she may have freaked out. He said that was a lie very quickly and huffy, almost like she lied to him.

39:26She's referring to this right here. One of the theories is that she really wanted a family. She wanted a kid. Yeah, it's totally not true. That's not true. She never said that to you. Totally not true. No. Megan Wright was defensive on this same point. and that the effect of that, Phil, is to make us believe it more, not less. One of the things that jumps out immediately, he says it was totally not true. Immediately a convincing adjective, if you will, prior to making his answer, giving his answer. And he's giving you a denial, but it's a little bit like in the O.J. Simpson trial, you know, when they ask him, you know, for a plea, he said, I'm 100%, you know, if you believe that he was guilty.

40:23They feel the need to be more compelling in their response. And that's what he was doing there. And he doesn't realize it. And you're asking direct questions and that's what's giving him real difficulty. because Brian at the time I mentioned this when we first got on in the show the reporting was everywhere that she told him she wanted a baby and when she was younger and pink haired she was on camera like with Jim Spellman but the the denial she gave me on that front the denial he gave me on that front was much stronger than I'd ever heard from them up until this point. Did Jersey ever offer to get a baby for you?

41:12No. The denials she gave to me and he gave to me were the strongest I'd heard from either of them on the allegation that he might have been stealing a baby or that she might have told him she wanted a baby. Go ahead, Phil. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. At a minimum, they talked about that subject. I truly believe that they had in perhaps the early days of their relationship before Megan realized that this was not the guy for her. I think there was a strong possibility that they would have talked about having a child or wanting a child. Kate writes in, and I confess I don't know this movie, but she writes in, I'm really enjoying your fascinating Baby Lisa series.

41:56I'm sure you've thought of this already. but doesn't this whole situation remind you of the Coen brothers movie Raising Arizona where the main character, Nicolas Cage in a small town is a criminal who hatches a plan with his wife to steal a baby from a family who had quintuplets quote, no one will notice if we steal one in order to start a family of their own. Could Jersey, the suspect have watched that movie and thought it would be a good idea to steal a baby to try to start a family with his girlfriend, Megan? Here is a clip from the movie Raising Arizona with Nick Cage and Holly Hunter from 1987.

42:56Well, now, honey, we've been over this and over this, and there's what's right, and there's what's right, and never the twins shall meet. Don't you think his mom will be upset? I mean, overly? Well, of course she'll be upset, sugar, but she'll get over it. She's got four little babies, almost as good as this one. It's like when I was driving convenience stores. I love him so much. Holly Hunter, she's amazing. Now, that was 25 years before the events in question in this case, Bill. But Jersey is of a certain age, and we cannot rule out that he saw that movie, which was really popular. Yeah, I could pretty much tell you my guess would be absolutely not.

43:37You know, they couldn't afford their own phone. They passed around a cell phone in the meth house. I don't think they could have afforded Netflix, let alone a TV set. That'd be more of an Amazon primer, I think.

43:54clever clever viewer though i love the movie references and one never knows you know and you know what it just shows you you know you're in a meth house lord knows what they were hopped up on you know and they probably rambled i want a kid yes i'll get you a kid and that may have been you know when the perpetrator went in that house through the front window i remember the police said, oh, they could not have gone in. Meanwhile, when we went to the house, I got right in, pushed in that screen, and he walked through that house, which was chilling, and probably heard the baby stirring, and he grabbed everything that he could carry.

44:30And unfortunately, baby Lisa, in my opinion, was one of them, along with the phones. We had the neighbors right around the coroner say they saw a man with a baby, both the husband and the wife in right in the relevant timeframe. And that's never been explained. No blanket, no anything, just a baby. That's right. They both saw it. They did not know that one was missing. I mean, that's just, that's such a damning fact. Okay. From Kathy. Thank you for all of your hard work. I listen to your show daily. Thank you, Kathy. It's my number one trusted news source. Yes. If you have a chance to discuss the TANCO interview with Phil Houston again, and haven't already explored the below.

45:07I was hoping Phil would talk about this. The question is, Tanko seemed aggressive when he was asked who Bill was, meaning when the subject of who Bill Stanton was. Here's what she's referring to in Sop 5. The way I see it is we're trying to provide them with closure. You can help us do that. And with some comfort, you know, and just figuring out what the story is. This is a big shot lawyer. No, he's not a lawyer. He's my friend. This is Bill. Oh, okay. Yeah, no. In another life, he's a lawyer. See, they do these stories, and people just trash my name. They totally trash my name. Yeah. You know what I mean?

45:48I was involved with a lot of illegal activity about that. What do you make of that, the focus on Bill, who he raised, I didn't raise there, Phil? Again, Megan, you were focusing, you opened the interview with three questions or three focuses on involvement. and you weren't going away. And he didn't know what to say. And he was a classic case of buying time. And he used the aggression also just in case Bill was with law enforcement. And he spent a lot of his life dealing with law enforcement. And I wouldn't be surprised that if he felt that Bill you know, looked, acted, and could be, you know, law enforcement.

46:37But the major benefit to him was he needed to buy time. And then, as you know, he came back and made an attempt then to answer the question. But the questioner that raised this question was absolutely correct on the aggression because he talked very demeaningly about in Bill's direction. It was like a stall tactic. That makes sense because you hadn't really come up and he wasn't like searching for more information when we first walked on, Bill. It was kind of interesting. And when we were walking off, remember, he said something like, are you taping this? And you said like, not with this phone.

47:18You said something that was actually true, but not totally revealing. Even if you don't BS right back. Yeah, exactly. He spent half an hour BSing us. We got actually a lot of email about this one. Here it is in SOT 6. What do you think should happen to the guy? What do you think should happen to the person? I don't know what happened. So, I mean, if it's a kidnapping or God forbid a homicide. Well, they don't care. I was thinking they know. That jumped out at us, too. I remember when Bill and I were walking off property, we were both like, holy shit. Is that the thing about the death penalty? That came up.

47:58What about that one, Phil? Yes, the death penalty, again, is part of a convincing statement. And it's also part of this demon that he deals with all the time and worries about getting caught and worries that sooner or later, all of this is going to become unraveled. And his knowledge and our participation in it will come to light. and he's scared to death because he knows, having been in prison, how serious these things can get very quickly once the truth has been uncovered. And so he so fears the death penalty that he uses that as a convincing statement to enhance his answer and saying, I would never do something like that.

48:47I know how bad the death penalty is. That was his underlying message. Yeah, it makes sense. I should state for the record, this is Phil's opinion, his expert opinion as a deception detection expert. Jersey denies all these claims, as you've heard. That it's true, because if you ask me, did you have any, what involvement did you have in the disappearance of baby Lisa? My answer would be none. I came in after she was gone to report on it as a journalist, period. And even if people had gotten to the point of saying maybe Megyn Kelly did it, she was there on site in Kansas City. I still don't think my response would be, this is a death penalty case.

49:23I'm not talking about that. It's interesting that that's where his mind went and the audience reacted strongly. I have a question concerning part four. You mentioned the parents finding a charge on their debit card for a name-changing service. There is no questioning or explanation of how the charge was on their card. Is this something I missed? Great work on all of your presentations. Bob is referring to this piece of part four of our baby Lisa special. One month after Lisa went missing, Debra and Jeremy found a charge on a debit card,$69.04, paid to a British company that called itself a name-changing service.

50:05Bob has a point. That one, we probably should have closed that loop a little tighter there because that is a big one. Like, wait, what? But we didn't I don't think we found anything more on it, Brian. Right. Jeremy did not know and nothing came of it. Right. It's it's debit card fraud, you know, which, you know, happens. It's an ISA. Whoever took the phones and the baby did not take his debit card or a statement that had the number. So and also if it were Jeremy and Deborah, why would they be paying for a name changing service? You know, so it's like it really is a fuzzy. I mean, it's a dead end.

50:45And no matter which way you go. Yeah, because if Jeremy or Deborah stole the baby, then one would presume they'd be with the baby. They'd be raising the baby. They didn't do that. That's not true. They they were together living in the same home up until very recently. So not one wasn't scurrying about the world, changing the baby's name so that she couldn't be identified as little Lisa. I want to tell you about Daily Look. This is a very cool idea. Their mission is simple, elevate your style. They work with top brands and emerging designers alike, like Kate Spade, AG, Good American, Girlfriend Collective, and more.

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53:17Okay, Megan Wright, OMG. A lot of feedback on the Megan Wright interview. I think all four of us and Mary too are all really floored after that whole thing happened. Phil and Bill, you watched it with me in the wings and then came up to offer instant analysis. Brian and Mary were watching too. And it was a shocking exchange. I really didn't expect it to go as it did. The audience may remember she got very emotional and there was a turn in the interview where she was like, she cried a lot. She was very emotional or like she purported to cry a lot. And then there was this turn where I had to ask her about, she served some time for abuse of the baby she had much later after baby Lisa, that you just have to do that as a reporter.

54:06I can't have her on and give an interview about whether she may have been involved in the disappearance of a baby and ignore the fact that later she was found guilty of medical neglect of her own child. So it's one of those sensitive things where she's agreed to give me this interview, but we both know that this thing is going to have to come up and boy, she wasn't happy. Here's a little bit of that in SOT 17. He was underweight. Is that what he was underweight? severely. Can we not talk about this? This is the worst thing in my life and you're just dwelling on it. And I really don't appreciate it.

54:39I'm trying to participate. I'm trying to participate for the sake of maybe Lisa, not to focus on the worst thing in my life, the most embarrassing thing. So Phil, the audience did not believe the tears. And, uh, I think sided with you who also So very rough on Megan right after that interview. You did not believe pretty much anything she said. Phil was stone face. He was hard. Phil was hardcore. Yeah, I had seen other interviews with Megan. And in my opinion, in every one of those interviews, she used her, the tough life. In other words, I think that much of what she's saying about how tough her life was, there's a certain amount of truth to that.

55:28And she's using it very effectively to distract people away from, you know, what the real issue is. In other words, it gets people, you know, take their eye off the ball and focus on this stuff. And she's very, very good at it. She started her answer with aggression. And what that typically means is that when someone really doesn't want to talk about this, they will, you know, try to shut it down right off the bat. And she did that. So I also believe that there is an underlying reason, you know, some of the reasons that she gave embarrassment and the worst moment in her life and so forth. But I also believe she's hiding and doesn't want to talk about her role in the mistreatment of her own child.

56:22In other words, how bad that level of mistreatment actually was is what I think she was really trying to conceal there. That's what the deception was primarily about at that moment. So many of the audience members had the same reaction that even my family had when we watched it together at first, which was, why would you keep that in? When they first saw her come for me, you know, it was a very tense, awkward exchange between us. And people were like, why would you keep that in there, my God. But there was a reason, you know, we wanted the audience to see how in this moment she turned on me. She aggressively came for me and sort of tried to emotionally stand me down.

57:04And, you know, Phil, you can see in episode four, had very strong thoughts about that and about her use of emotion throughout the interview. Almost like a child, Megan. When you put her up again, she started like crying to, and, you know, if we're going to look at it, go down that road, like to obfuscate, You know, she had me tearing up and I bought it. You know, I bought it. But now that we step back and we look in reflection like a child, they don't get what they want or it's not going their way. You know, start crying to bring out the humanity in us. One thing I struggle with and having watched it and listened to it again repeatedly is on October 4th, when she got back from Walmart and Waffle House, she decided to become sober.

57:52Like what? Because she got a call from the FBI. She had not yet been connected in any way publicly to anything. I put the TV on and I saw Kidna. like she was connecting herself. It's a very good point. So that because and even even even if she did see that a baby had been stolen, a baby she didn't know from a family she didn't know, why would that scare her sober? Like, why would that random news item scare her sober? And sober ever since. OK, according to court records, she violated probation or something. It was documented that she had failed a marijuana test at least once, you know, in the years of when she was in prison or afterward.

58:45And, you know, listen, that's that could be the Demi Lovato California sober. Right. But back in 2012 and 2013, marijuana wasn't like the, you know, over the counter thing that it is now. So true. Yeah, we got a lot of mail on people wanting to know about that. You know how she got scared sober. This is from M. She was she goes by M or he writes as follows. I agree with a lie detector, Phil, on Megan Wright. She clearly says that she was only in a relationship with Sky for five months. But then she says she has post-traumatic stress disorder and cries throughout the entire interview and then claims to know.

59:27how mean and scary he is, but can't give you an answer when you ask if she thinks he could do that to a baby. And she says, I think Phil is spot on. She knows more. She just doesn't want to admit it because she's worried it will implicate her. Here's a little bit of what she's referring to in SOT 15. How likely is it, do you think, that Jersey, John Tinko, was involved in baby Lisa's disappearance? It's hard to say, honestly. I didn't know him very well. He and I were together for less than six months, and we only lived together for a couple of months of that. So I didn't really know him all that well.

1:00:08And most of the time that we were together, you know, we were using drugs together. It wasn't a healthy relationship where you learn what somebody's capable of. What's that about, Phil? It's hard to say. It's hard for her to say after all this time whether he might have been involved. It's a classic example of truth in the lie. It is hard for her to say. That's the truthful part. But when it's followed by a convincing statement, which is honestly, now it signals right away, you're looking at this small cluster, but it's immediately telling you to be careful of what comes after that because she's giving you all, you know, untruth.

1:00:55All right. Here's another piece of it that the audience member, Em, referenced in Sat 16. I have a lot of PTSD from the things that he put me through that I've tried really hard to work through over the years, but there's a lot of it I can't, you know, I can't let go. what I can't forget being that afraid. Were you thinking, you know, this guy's kind of crazy. Could have been him. Yes, I definitely thought this guy is crazy and that he was horrible to me, traumatized me. But I have no idea what he's capable of. I mean, there is she's right. There's an inconsistency in her. Like it was so traumatic.

1:01:38I have PTSD all these years later. But gee, I have no idea whether he could commit this crime. And these were phony tears, Megyn. If you notice, she was trying to cry as she initially started explaining. And then when you ask the follow-up question, immediately everything went away and her voice normalized. and she's back to giving you an explanation as if, you know, you ask, you know, how do you bake a cake? You know what I mean? I mean, she's now back to talking normally. People who are genuinely upset don't usually make that transition that smoothly. And she's certainly not a very poised individual to begin with.

1:02:27and she's using the tears to her advantage or trying hard to do that. If Megan Wright had anything to do with the disappearance of this baby, why would she have given me the interview? That's the thing that I can't get past. She didn't have to sit with me. I'm not FBI. There's no subpoena. She knew I wasn't going to go easy on her. I never said this is going to be a walk in the park. And so she knew that she'd face tough questions and just being questioned about it at all. If you have something to do with it, you would avoid that like the plague. It's much more consistent, like with Jersey's behavior.

1:03:09Get out of here. He's down the street. I'm not talking to you, random man. Right. She was like, I'll do it. And she sat with me for well over an hour, Phil. Behavioral scientists tell us, Megan, there's only a casual relationship between human behavior and logic. If you were to ask me, do I think Megan Wright actively participated in New, I'm going to say no. I'll say no to that. What I think happened was, so suppose we all knew someone that was fairly close in our life in a similar situation. We did speak about a baby. He's the number one guy. The FBI did contact her because that her number was in the phone.

1:03:53So my feeling is more of a guilty conscience, knowing that he very well could have done it. And she just didn't want any part of it. That's what I think, you know, her participation was. She didn't, you know, vigorously say, hey, listen, we spoke about that. And yes, he very well could have. I think given her mental state at that time, she just wanted out of Dodge, out of the situation. don't implicate me i don't know who called that phone i didn't know the irwins yada yada yada and i think now this is her feeble attempt to try to make good on it that was her motivation to call you uh to do the interview with you it's that at a minimum she knows it's possible he did it and it's possible she was the inspiration behind it exactly kind of the best case scenario for for megan i mean i guess the best best is he had nothing to do with it and she had nothing to do with it.

1:04:49But then if he has something to do with it, I don't think anybody believes he just did it for on his own. Like the relationship with who with her was too significant and volatile and recent. And there was a discussion in some way, shape or form, I'm convinced about her wanting a family. She she kind of denied it in our interview, but I didn't believe it. And when he went by that baby in the house that night, that was the light bulb that went off in the meth head head. Let me grab it. Let me get a gold star from the woman who I want to spend my life with. Because he had a history, Cindy Short told us, of breaking into houses and committing petty crimes, taking things like cell phones that would be easy to resell on the market and get a price for.

1:05:31And that's why we all concluded it was probably him and he probably took the baby as a crime of opportunity. And let's not forget, he was working on a house up the block that night. He knew. What were you going to say, the one thing that links her in my mind is how what she did with her phone the night before the call occurred uh in other words she gave up her phone to other people in the house and said here you guys can use this tonight is that just a coincidence you have the same question as natasha our producer for this segment that we're doing right now. And she wrote her own questions down after having gone neck deep on all of this too.

1:06:17Her question is, it seems very convenient for Megan to leave her phone behind on the night of October 3rd, the morning of October 4th, when the crime took place. Could this have been on purpose? Did police ever check out if she actually went to the Waffle House and the Walmart like she claimed? Do you know the answer to that last question there, Brian? I don't know. So, um, but they were very thorough. One, one would have to presume they did. Yeah. She left behind this phone. She has a phone. She's also using drugs at this point and she leaves it behind for the trap house. Now she explained to us, this is like your kind of payment, you know, you got to show that you're worth something in order to be allowed to live at the trap house.

1:07:01And I had this phone. Contribution. Yeah. Nobody eats for free. You got to pay your rent. And that was her, you know, like just playing devil's advocate to what Phil was saying, like to balance it out. I'm not saying I necessarily agree. But, you know, to me, that was a plausible answer. You know, OK, I'm going to the Waffle House. It's not like I have real friends in my life, except that are in this house. Here, use the phone. And when I get back, I claim it because she had my understanding was she had the only active phone at that time. And they were all using it. And we did make contact with a fellow member of the place she was living who admitted he had used her phone.

1:07:37He did. He wouldn't admit on the night in question, but admitted he'd been using her phone so that she is supported on that. Is she not, Brian, that she did allow the members of that house to use her phone? Two people in the house told me that. Yep. OK, so on that, she may she may be telling the truth. Then there was this that a lot of the viewers reacted to. and Phil, you reacted to this too. What made her go sober on October 4th of all days? This is how the question here, did Megan ever clarify what the situation was to make her quit drugs, cold turkey on the morning of October 4th? I would imagine it's pretty hard to quit meth, cold turkey, especially in her living arrangement.

1:08:19Would the FBI calling her phone be that big of a wake-up call to a meth addict? I mean, it is true. I don't know that she ever fully explained that, you know, what the trauma was. You know, you say, Brian, was it like the FBI just randomly called? It was just that? The FBI called her phone when she wasn't even with it? Or she saw a news item on the television with which she says to us she had absolutely no connection? Yeah, I'm not sure we have an answer other than just the trauma of the day. A call from the FBI, news a baby had been stolen, and soon thereafter, news to her that the cell phones had dialed her number.

1:08:57And one other thing, in her 20 or 21 year old life, she already had suffered a lot of other trauma, including living in a domestic violence shelter, some other bad actor, boyfriend in the months before this, before Tango. Here is another smart question. Natalia, I was watching the first episode of Baby Lisa and I was wondering, what if the neighbor that was drinking with Deborah, Samantha Brando was her name, that what if that woman got her drunk on purpose and had an arrangement or a debt with someone? Here's a piece from episode one, SOT 18. Samantha and James Brando. Their family was close with the Irwins, but that day the Brandos were separating, something they had decided earlier that afternoon.

1:09:48James moved out just hours after Deborah and Samantha started drinking. Deborah remembers the conversation. I was trying to help her through it and, you know, just give her the best advice I could. And she was kind of spilling her gut, you know, what she went through, what she's hoping she will accomplish next, you know. Custody stuff, you know, just the deep things that come with, you know, separation of family. What about the Brandos, Brian? We did look into them, Samantha and James. Samantha would not talk to us. She vociferously refused to speak to us. and was very angry. James, we had a long conversation with.

1:10:32And he basically kind of said everything that Jim Spellman told us, that he told Jim Spellman. He had quite an itinerary that night. And a lot of it was captured on CCTV, like he went to Walmart. And he was also over at an Air Force base where he worked in the wee hours of the morning. So we didn't really get any red flags from him. And the police had ruled him out. The police ruled him out. Of course, the police say they ruled out, or that they moved on from Jersey too. So, I mean, I don't know how much stock we put in them. Why would Samantha Brando be vociferously against sitting with us when both Deborah and Jeremy cooperated with the piece extensively?

1:11:20Well, here's an interesting, I don't know why I never was able, I never asked Debra this, but Samantha and Debra stopped speaking you know, had not been in contact in many, many years. Like not long after the kidnapping they no longer talked to each other and so there was some, I don't know what it was but I just thought that's some sort of negative energy that Samantha is not speaking to Debra and let alone getting a phone call from someone doing a podcast. But, I mean, I get it. That happens in relationships. But, like, you're talking about a missing baby, you'd think. And she's a critical witness.

1:11:59I mean, she was important. She was with Debra the whole night while they were drinking. I don't know. That's interesting. Though, I will say, to the extent she could say anything that would make Debra look bad, it's how much worse could it be than what Debra has told us about Debra's behavior that night? It's not like Debra's trying to paint herself as some perfect angel. um you know she was very open right from the get-go just about the first time you know well the first time I interviewed her when she told us how much she had been drinking and you know how uh she was basically blackout drunk and I asked her about this when we did our interview um like why why would you why were you so honest about it this is actually from part one watch this do you have a drinking problem no I don't think so some folks are gonna have an issue if you have i'm sure they are more than five drinks while you're looking after a little baby and two little boys she was sleeping i wanted to ask so why did you choose to share that with me because it has nothing to do with lisa's abduction and i want to be honest about everything so that people will look for her because i feel like if they're like oh she's being honest about that she's got to be telling the truth about other stuff so we certainly didn't need Sam Brando to document Debra's condition.

1:13:15And I don't know that there was any reason to believe Samantha Brando had, like, there was no evidence whatsoever that she had anything to do with it. We interviewed Sam and there was no deception around the, I mean, Sam told us how, and I think one of the reasons why there may be some friction that ensued after that is Samantha was the one who corroborated or told us that Deborah had been stumbling drunk that night and she depicted how much she had to drink. And I don't think Deborah wanted that to come out, obviously. So to me, like the question is why wouldn't she come on camera? I don't have the answer to that.

1:14:09I have my I would lean into maybe there was some rancor between the two of them and she just wants to put it in her rear view. But she gets a pass from me. The reason being I was there boots on the ground literally days after the occurrence. And, you know, I interviewed her. I spent some significant time with her. But for me, the biggest thing why she gets the pass for me is that I asked her to be interviewed by Phil. and she showed no trepidation and she did it. And at that, to me, that was the most important inflection point was to get Phil and Susan to interview Samantha to remove everyone that was within touch distance that evening.

1:14:57And this is right in the beginning of the case when arrests could still be made at any moment. Like she put herself in potential jeopardy by saying yes to that and she did it willingly. Okay. I just want to touch base with you again on it, Phil. So have you what where do you stand now? Like what has your analysis changed meaningfully from when we ended the series? Oh, not as far as John Tanko is concerned. I have no doubts about whether he is involved in this. As Bill noted earlier, there's so many points that of evidence and things and coincidence, alleged coincidences that it's just he is he is in my in my opinion.

1:15:37He has a minimum significant guilty knowledge and or direct involvement. And I'm leaning much more towards direct involvement than just guilty knowledge. And with respect to Megan Wright? Megan Wright knows what happened that night. There's no doubt in my mind. And that's the one thing I went back and, you know, I have great respect for the panel here. And, you know, I was sort of a one-off on Megan. And I really went back and looked at it and looked at a couple of the other interviews and so forth. And there's a real consistency in terms of her level or volume of deception and the efforts to distance herself using that deception away from Tanko.

1:16:34And and she's piling on to him. Right. And you pointed this out when we did episode five, that he was very defensive of her. Like he he'd shut it down that she had anything to do with it over and over. And that that to you was actually kind of a tell. He had criminals often do that. They protect each other to when when it's, you know, in their best interest to do so. And yeah, and it certainly is in their best interest to do so if both of them are involved. A lot of you may have some kind of extra car just sitting around. Maybe it's an older model. You don't drive anymore. Maybe it's that second vehicle just collecting dust in the driveway.

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1:20:53Now, it's not just you, Phil, or you, Bill, or you, Brian, that thinks Jersey might not have been 100 % honest with us, though Brian's probably the best person here for Jersey. It's an incredible invention that you've come up with, Phil. It's basically the AI version of you. At your company, Q Verity, you've been working on an AI lie detector into which you've put all the Phil Houston magic. Can you tell us about this? Yes, it is a tool that we've spent almost short of three years developing. It is an incredible lie detection system. It's text-based. So if you have a conversation with someone and that that conversation can be legally recorded and transcribed, when you put it in, Q will give you the answer.

1:21:51Forgive me for the genderizing of Q, but when we ask Q, you know, what did he look like? He came back with an image and it's a male. So we're calling him he. So he indicated to us with a review of some of your interview with John Tanko, tremendous deception. Now, Q is better than Phil Houston, and it's better than, I believe, anyone on the planet. And for this reason, number one, Q has no bias. While AI can have bias, we went through something we refer to as constructive confinement. In other words, Q's existence has never been exposed to anyone or anything else but the deception, the job of detecting deception and the training and the concepts and so forth.

1:22:57And the reason he's better than us is for three reasons. The no bias, his cognitive capacity capability is far greater than certainly mine, but we believe just because it's AI related, it's better in terms of detecting deception than anyone else on the planet. His analytical processing is faster than any of our processing. so for example when i'm doing an interview i spot and then you know a deceptive behavior here deceptive behavior there so on and so forth when q does his job he looks at each question and answer individually individually he doesn't know what any of the other questions are or what other things at that moment in time he just doesn't know it he deals only with what's in front of him and if i if i can interject megan it's essentially bill is bobby fisher and he invented the computer that could beat him in chess so i'm just looking at because you've shared some of this with me um and on some of the items that we went through uh like for example here's the the you fed into him the question of his aggression toward bill who's this big shot lawyer with you and my question was we're trying what we're trying to do is help them the way i see it is we're trying to provide them with closure.

1:24:22You can help us do that. And with some comfort, you know, and just figuring out what the story is. And his answer was, who's this big shot lawyer? Annie, or he's this big shot lawyer. Annie, see that they do these stories and then people just trash my name. They totally trash my name. You know what I mean? I was involved with a lot of illegal activity back then. Here's Q. In the speaker's reply, two key patterns emerge. One, hostile or dismissive attack on the question itself. Rather than answer, the speaker launches into a confrontational challenge. He's this big shot lawyer, aren't you? Which serves to intimidate or undermine the questioner instead of providing any direct information.

1:24:57Two, off-topic commentary that avoids the question's core demand. The speaker shifts to complaining about how they do these stories and trash my name, introducing irrelevant detail and emotional framing rather than supplying the specific answer sought. Conclusion, deception, deceptive behavior indicated. Because these two tactics both divert attention and repel the direct inquiry, the response meets the threshold for deceptive behavior. That's so interesting, Phil. You did this with Q time and time again on all of these questions you and I just went through with the audience. And each time Q said, he's lying.

1:25:32Yes, yes. He is, he can do all of that. What he does every single question, it's segmented analysis. He's not looking at the transcript as a whole. It's as every single question and answer is he analyzes when it when he moves on to the next one. You can go back and ask the previous one a hundred times. And each time it will be the first time for him. He has no memory. So he's not like he already lied to me five times. I'm going to give him the likelihood of lying on time. Number six. Question six. Yeah, it's that's not it. That's not a consideration in his analysis. It is he's looking, you know, so so we ask him, you know, look at this question, analyze it.

1:26:23He analyzes it, says it's deceptive behavior. We wipe the slate clean. It's automatedly wiped away. And he moves on to the next one. He has no memory of what he just did or that or ever seeing that question. And the significance of that is, is to preclude the development of bias. And the other thing that, Megan, that's unbelievable and why speed is important in the analysis is that unlike myself, I might see a behavior or two. But with him, he looks at every single possible deceptive behavior in his training and in the book that could not in the book we wrote, but in, you know, that we've given him to look for.

1:27:09You know, there's there's a huge number of behaviors. He looks at every single one of those in a matter of seconds and then and then gives you and then puts that into his analysis and then creates the the narrative. OK, here's another one. We're going to play SOT 11, which you fed to Q. Let's watch it. This is of Tanko. The other story is that some random person came in the house and kidnapped me. Right? Yeah. So now the FBI's involved, they vacuumed back the whole house. And if my DNA was in there, like from dead skin cells, I'd be charged. It wasn't in the house. Did the cops talk to you? Yeah, they told me this.

1:27:56Did they ever take DNA? Yeah. They did? Yeah. Oh, what did they, like a saliva? They did? Yeah. Did they tell you that you were cleared? I didn't have to, but I didn't anyway. Okay. And did they tell you you were cleared and you were good to go? No, they didn't say it's an open case. The analysis. In reviewing the speaker's answer, I identify two categories of behavior that suggest avoidance rather than a straightforward response. One, referring back to a previous statement. The speaker says, that's what I'm saying. This phrase explicitly points back to an earlier remark instead of adding new information.

1:28:31By implying the matter has already been settled, it discourages follow-up and shifts focus away from the core question. Ah, so interesting. Number two, introducing off-topic details and hypothetical scenarios. Throughout the rest of the reply, the speaker describes how the FBI might collect DNA. The FBI vacuumed out the house with my DNA, speculates about skin cell counts. You have a million skin cells, outlines procedural steps. They're gonna bag it up. They're gonna DNA it to me and warns of hypothetical legal consequences. and I'd be charged. There's no doubt about it. The conclusion is deceptive behavior indicated.

1:29:07None of these clauses addresses the direct question, what if any role they played in baby Lisa's disappearance? Instead, they divert attention toward evidence and how it might be handled or why charges could follow. Because the response repeatedly relies on referring back to earlier remarks and on supplying extraneous distraction-oriented content rather than clarifying involvement, it meets the threshold for indicating deceptive behavior. Phil, it's just like you, Phil, you're such a humble guy, despite your many accomplishments to invent yourself right out of a job. Yeah, well, I think it won't be long.

1:29:47Wow. That it will, you know. Well, we'll keep the audience posted because I think they'll definitely be, if this is commercially available in any way, shape or form, I know many, many members of the audience will be interested. You guys are awesome. as you guys know, will stay on it. John Tanko has never been charged with any crimes related to the disappearance of baby Lisa. Police have never publicly considered Megan Wright a suspect in baby Lisa's disappearance. And we can now report that as a result of our series, the FBI has looked into this case again. The FBI has reviewed the first five episodes of our baby Lisa series, and they are ready to hear from all of you if you have relevant and credible information.

1:30:31You can reach the FBI directly at tips.fbi.gov. That's tips.fbi.gov. They are ready to receive your inquiries. We thank FBI Director Kash Patel and his team for taking this seriously, and we will continue to bring you information as we get it.

1:31:00Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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